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New Guideline: Do not begin a map with a circle.

posted
Total Posts
50
grumd
1,790 posts
Joined October 2010
Topic Starter
grumd
More precisely, do not start a map with a circle if:
- It has no music before the first object.
- The music in the beginning can't represent the bpm and rhythm.
It causes much problems with hidden mod. When this happens, you can't know when to hit the first circle and getting a 300 becomes a real problem. It was pissing me off all the time. But if you start the map from a slider, you won't get a 100 easily.

A very good example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/93721
Try to play it with hidden.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/173391
But this map has a slider as a first object, much easier to hit.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
Maps are made to be played without mods. If you're playing with Hidden, you should know it's going to get harder.
Scorpiour
2,633 posts
Joined May 2011
Scorpiour
despite i always prefer to start a map by slider, i don't think such a guideline is necessary~

players who choose to hidden mod must take all posible challenges and troubles , right~~?
Nessuka
259 posts
Joined June 2012
Nessuka
There are maps HR cannot pass ever, even with auto, does that mean we should completely abolish hard drain rates?

Also, my take on this would be to have an approach circle show on the first note/silder upon start/break end of a map regardless of mods.
Or similar.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
There is a difference between getting harder because you can't see the approach circles and getting harder because you can't see the approach circles and have to blindly guess when the rythm starts, this is why i suggested a countdown guideline the other time, but this would do just fine.
Low
2,006 posts
Joined July 2011
Low
imo it's still more challenging to 300 the first note on a map if it's a circle even without hidden. especially if there's no rhythm or countdown before the first note. so yeah, this would be nice.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

Sakura wrote:

There is a difference between getting harder because you can't see the approach circles and getting harder because you can't see the approach circles and have to blindly guess when the rythm starts, this is why i suggested a countdown guideline the other time, but this would do just fine.

Blue Dragon wrote:

Maps are made to be played without mods. If you're playing with Hidden, you should know it's going to get harder.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
And BD completely ignored Jacob's post, even without hidden you'd have to go by approach circle only, and that's pretty bad since you'd be off by a lot without any musical indication.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Ijah wrote:

There are maps HR cannot pass ever, even with auto, does that mean we should completely abolish hard drain rates?
No, that means we need to be more cautious when modding.

Sakura wrote:

There is a difference between getting harder because you can't see the approach circles and getting harder because you can't see the approach circles and have to blindly guess when the rythm starts
It is possible, and not very hard, to learn to read Hidden w/o rhythmic input, for the fadeout of the circles work basically the same as approach circles. It's a bit about muscle memory. Some might say this is how Hidden works. Others will say, this isn't the intention of Hidden.
Opinions differ.
But I do get your point, it sometimes is really annoying for me as well.

As long as this is only a guideline I have no problem with this, unless a slider really doesn't fit (e.g. if there is only a single tone in the beginning) it shouldn't be a problem to prefer sliders over circles.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

Zarerion wrote:

It is possible, and not very hard, to learn to read Hidden w/o rhythmic input, for the fadeout of the circles work basically the same as approach circles. It's a bit about muscle memory. Some might say this is how Hidden works. Others will say, this isn't the intention of Hidden.
Opinions differ.
But I do get your point, it sometimes is really annoying for me as well.

As long as this is only a guideline I have no problem with this, unless a slider really doesn't fit (e.g. if there is only a single tone in the beginning) it shouldn't be a problem to prefer sliders over circles.
This.

If people start modding my maps saying "You should put a slider instead of this circle because of Hidden", I'm going to stop mapping.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
You mean, because there's no rhythmical (i totally spelled that wrong i think?) cue to when to hit it.
The OP mentions hidden, but hidden is irrelevant at this point, it's more about having a clear rhythm to know when to hit the circle.
grumd
1,790 posts
Joined October 2010
Topic Starter
grumd

Blue Dragon wrote:

Maps are made to be played without mods. If you're playing with Hidden, you should know it's going to get harder.
There is a difference between getting harder and getting impossible or annoying. Challenge should require skills or efforts, not luck.
Even if you play without mods, you'll have to rely on the approach circle. But it's a rhythm game, when you play it, you expect to play with the music, not just "watch an approach circle without any sound".
Zarerion said that you can also rely on fadeout of the notes with Hidden, but that's exactly the same.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
Sorry but I don't want to often change my maps to something that I don't see fitting simply because people who play with Hidden will get mad at me.
Mercurial
Mercurial
I'm not sure why you guys want to implement a guideline that most people are going to ignore because "I am an experienced map and I know what I'm doing with this, so no, I'm not changing this" or something.

Nowadays, guidelines are not being followed... so if you're going to implement something, it should be a rule, not a guideline.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

grumd wrote:

There is a difference between getting harder and getting impossible or annoying. Challenge should require skills or efforts, not luck.
Even if you play without mods, you'll have to rely on the approach circle. But it's a rhythm game, when you play it, you expect to play with the music, not just "watch an approach circle without any sound".
That's exactly the one argument I expected to see.
But keep the following in mind: Even though this is a rhythm game, it definitely isn't ONLY about rhythm, but also about reading. Some people think that it is necessary in this game to be able to read an AR, whether with Hidden or not. Whether you can tell by the rhythm or not.
There are different ways to play this game, and none is right or wrong. Thus, such an argument most likely can't really come to a conclusion everyone likes.

IMO, it should simply fit to the song. Use a slider if possible, but if a song just requires a circle, the player has got to read it without rhythmical input.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Or use a countdown, i still don't know what's with people and putting a circle at the exact time the song starts rather than letting the player have like a second or 2 of rhythm before starting out.
Mercurial
Mercurial
There are songs where you CAN'T add a note/slider 2 seconds after it starts.

I can give you some if you want.
Love
osu! Alumni
1,267 posts
Joined August 2010
Love

Blue Dragon wrote:

Maps are made to be played without mods. If you're playing with Hidden, you should know it's going to get harder.
Quoting this for the truth.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I'm more against songs that are total silence before the very first note, since with some music at least you can remember the spot in the music the note is supposed to be hit, but it's preferable to give the players a clear rythm to hit the first note, approach circles don't help at all since then you're relying on visual cues rather than rhythmical cues on a rhythm game.

then again for a while this game is "click circles while listening to music" rather than a rhtyhm game.
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Charles445
This is something mappers pick up by themselves. Those who don't suffer in the ratings.
We don't really need a guideline for it although I wholeheartedly support its idea and usage in maps.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Sakura wrote:

I'm more against songs that are total silence before the very first note, since with some music at least you can remember the spot in the music the note is supposed to be hit, but it's preferable to give the players a clear rythm to hit the first note, approach circles don't help at all since then you're relying on visual cues rather than rhythmical cues on a rhythm game.
Yeah, I like being ignored.
Again. This is different for other players, Sakura. Some people prefer relying on Approach Circles rather than only the rhythm.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

Sakura wrote:

I'm more against songs that are total silence before the very first note, since with some music at least you can remember the spot in the music the note is supposed to be hit, but it's preferable to give the players a clear rythm to hit the first note, approach circles don't help at all since then you're relying on visual cues rather than rhythmical cues on a rhythm game.

then again for a while this game is "click circles while listening to music" rather than a rhtyhm game.
not everyone thinks like you, remember that
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
For some Songs you just cannot use a Slider as the very first Hitobject in a Diff. Not only because it would look retarded, also because sometimes you NEED to press a single button and then again. Can't relaize to play https://osu.ppy.sh/s/45528 with a Slider as first Hitobject.
Moway
1,143 posts
Joined January 2012
Moway
I think this is fine as a guideline. The whole hidden thing I think is a valid argument, and if a slider really doesn't fit the music then just use a circle. This would just be a guideline after all.
GladiOol
4,475 posts
Joined August 2008
GladiOol
Add approach circle on the first note when playing with hidden mode.

All problems solved.
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
4,432 posts
Here since the beginning
LuigiHann
Isn't the timing on hidden consistent enough that you can estimate the time to click based on when the note fades away? At least once you've gotten a feel for the map

That said, I'm always in favor of having some musical intro play before the first note

Though the real problem is that maps with a note that early need a countdown, and they usually don't get one
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
reason for not choosing Countdown: It is ugly and destroys the atmosphere, so you'd need to skin it in a way it fits the sb/map/song, and people are too lazy.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Zarerion wrote:

people are too lazy.
This just makes me wanna approve a countdown requiring guideline/rule to stop that lazyness

I guess i forgot to mention that i don't agree with requiring a slider at the start of every single song, only with requiring rhythm before starting the map, nothing's going to kill you if you start 1 stanza later, use your creativity!
GladiOol
4,475 posts
Joined August 2008
GladiOol
Just adjust the hidden mode so the first note will show approach circle. This way you know exactly when to click and you won't have rhythm problems.

,,.,.,.,.,.,.,..,.,
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Sakura wrote:

Zarerion wrote:

people are too lazy.
This just makes me wanna approve a countdown requiring guideline/rule to stop that lazyness
But it is not a general issue. It's just an opinion-based problem. You shouldn't base guidelines, and especially not rules, on opinions

Sakura wrote:

I guess i forgot to mention that i don't agree with requiring a slider at the start of every single song, only with requiring rhythm before starting the map, nothing's going to kill you if you start 1 stanza later, use your creativity!
Uh. Yes, it is a problem if a song starts on a certain beat and you just start your map later than that. I mean, wtf.

And Gladi, no. This isn't even what this topic is about, considering Hidden, with some practice, works exactly like nomod.
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu
I think the type of what you put should be determined by the music but i see it as annoying too. When the first note is where the music actually starts. You have no idea what your actually pressing and rely on sightreading.
Cygnus
1,517 posts
Joined December 2011
Cygnus
I guess I also experience the same problem when playing with Hidden. But all I can suggest right now is that first circles on every map should have an approach rate. But this is just plain stupid. lol?
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp

grumd wrote:

More precisely, do not start a map with a circle if:
- It has no music before the first object.
This is what countdowns are for

grumd wrote:

The music in the beginning can't represent the bpm and rhythm.
Then it isn't music (eg opening ambience) and thus we fall back onto the point above, the countdown. But I agree you shouldn't be placing ANY notes where there is no music.

grumd wrote:

It causes much problems with hidden mod.
As mentioned by previous replies, you shouldn't map to a mod. Maps are supposed to be evaluated in their original form (default skin, no mods etc)
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
I'd rather have the option to force count downs on whichever map I desire.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I don't care whether players play my map on hidden. Mappers in general shouldn't either. It's extra points, why should i make it easier for them?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

TheVileOne wrote:

I don't care whether players play my map on hidden. Mappers in general shouldn't either. It's extra points, why should i make it easier for them?
The thing is the discussion steered away from the hidden mod already, you should read the entire thread.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman

Charles445 wrote:

This is something mappers pick up by themselves. Those who don't suffer in the ratings.
We don't really need a guideline for it although I wholeheartedly support its idea and usage in maps.
I'm feeling this way too. This is just a subset of using a slider to start a section with a new BPM, which is a well-known trick to make the transitions easier to read.

Also, what's a guideline meant to be? Are they "rules but not really" or recommendations on how to deal with certain situations when mapping? The current wording in the ranking criteria (which states that a guideline is something that can be "broken") strongly implies the former, though I'm not well enough in tune with how things go nowadays to know if it's that way in practice. If it's really just a gentle recommendation list, then by all means, add this. It's good sense. But it doesn't belong in anything resembling a rule list.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne

Sakura wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

I don't care whether players play my map on hidden. Mappers in general shouldn't either. It's extra points, why should i make it easier for them?
The thing is the discussion steered away from the hidden mod already, you should read the entire thread.

k, read the thread and the topic never steered away from the hidden mod for 95% of the posts, and the remaining 5% were false issues that players were using to make this guideline seem more valid.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Guidelines are like rules except they can only be broken in very very very very vey special cases (Sorry but it seems i really have to enphasize that). While rules cannot be broken under any circumstance.

TheVileOne wrote:

k, read the thread and the topic never steered away from the hidden mod for 95% of the posts, and the remaining 5% were false issues that players were using to make this guideline seem more valid.
Re-read it then because you got it wrong it steered away already on the first page except with the random posts that based their arguments on the OP.

Edit: Almost forgot, grumd, please write "New" in the topic title when suggesting a new guideline/rule as per: t/56754 so i'll edit it for you.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

awp wrote:

grumd wrote:

More precisely, do not start a map with a circle if:
- It has no music before the first object.
This is what countdowns are for
People does not like the Countdown because it's ugly and stupid. I won't mind if the Countdown is a Must for maps with no Music before. But yeah, then people are coming and say that it ruins the atmosphere and blabla. You know what I mean.


awp wrote:

grumd wrote:

It causes much problems with hidden mod.
As mentioned by previous replies, you shouldn't map to a mod. Maps are supposed to be evaluated in their original form (default skin, no mods etc)
this
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Reread my statement about false issues. I will redact my calculations. It's 90% about hidden, 3% generically against the idea, and 7% about false issues.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman

Sakura wrote:

Guidelines are like rules except they can only be broken in very very very very vey special cases (Sorry but it seems i really have to enphasize that). While rules cannot be broken under any circumstance.
Yeah, no way this belongs in the guideline list, then.

SPOILER

Guidelines wrote:

Beat placement should follow the time-distance equality rule (using distance snap while placing beats enforces this). This means that you shouldn't have some fast notes with a huge distance between them followed by closely-placed (but slow) notes. This gets really confusing if the player isn't the person who designed the beatmap! Having some logic to the beat placement should be one of your goals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKm5xQyD2vE
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
If something doesn't belong then it should be revised and have it's appropriate thread for discussion.
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp

Stefan wrote:

awp wrote:

This is what countdowns are for
But yeah, then people are coming and say that it ruins the atmosphere and blabla. You know what I mean.
I don't think I do. Adding rhythm/EBA-ish elements to the map ruins the atmosphere? It sounds like you're suggesting the exact opposite of what I'm thinking.
GladiOol
4,475 posts
Joined August 2008
GladiOol
Sometimes adding countdown sounds just really retarded, that's a simple fact.

But I experience, and I know others do as well, that I hit the first note when there's no countdown or music with a 100. That's why I suggest for an approach circle on the first note, because after all it's a rhythm game, not a 'guess when you have to click lol you got a 100 better retry' game.

''Yes but is hidden mode, map should be made for normal'' -- Yes, I agree, that's why you should just add in an approach circle on the first note so you can determine the rhythm and click on from there. It's a rhythm game, not a guess where the note is game. /. .//. ./. .,.,., .,.,../
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
I thought this was a joke and I'm amazed that this whole thread is serious.

I want a guideline about maps having to start with a penis slider, always.
ryza
679 posts
Joined October 2011
ryza
ITT: People who can't play osu! for shit

Please, we don't need more worthless rules. There's already too many pointless things making the ranking process horribly complicated for fun maps, we don't need to add another.

If you're playing hidden and can't get the timing on the first note, either get better at hidden or use the lifebar filling up as a queue to hit it
GladiOol
4,475 posts
Joined August 2008
GladiOol
It's a rhythm issue in a rhythm game, what's there not to understand Wishy.
happy30
Featured Artist
2,064 posts
Joined August 2008
happy30
I would like to add that you also shouldn't start a map with a stream if there's not music before it. You can't guess the stream speed that well and you always end up with a bad accuracy unless you retry at least a few times.

example would be: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/15943
peppy
19,318 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
No.
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