Kyou-kun wrote:
Just give all the keys separate rankings so the StepMania and 8-key players will be satisfied
Best idea
Also you are totally confused, TheVileOne
Peppy has already made his point that he doesn't want to do this. I'm all up for continuing to complain for separate rankings with the rest of you guys in the hope that Peppy might one day give in. This idea is the next best alternative I can come up with if that doesn't happen though.
Agka wrote:
how about you don't play autogenerated charts and wait until the mania specifics rise
just asking
I'm not playing the autogenerated charts, I haven't played a single one since the scores got wiped because imho the autogenerated charts are awful, lmfao. What I'm a bit worried about is once pp is established, 7K players will have an advantage since almost every single auto-generated insane will already have their default keycount to 7 and they wouldn't have to worry about nK mod multipliers. Even with specifics, 7K players will have much more that is available to them without nK mod multiplier decreases.
Drafura wrote:
Agka wrote:
how about you don't play autogenerated charts and wait until the mania specifics rise
just asking
I think improving guidelines/rules to have osu!mania maps rankable is the best thing to do. Key count should depend on mappers.
I'm looking forward to o!m specifics myself and I agree there should be a guidelines for those as well. I'm also all for letting the mapper determine the key count, however what about the maps that are already ranked/approved or the maps where the mapper has disappeared from the mapping community altogether? How will they be able to select their keycount? Basically, I'm saying that a default for auto-generated maps still needs to be determined sometimes if the mapper doesn't choose it.
TheVileOne wrote:
I fully agree I was confused. I'm a bit sick at the moment. It's probably why I completely misread that. I still disagree though. osu standard conversion to mania is based initially off OD setting. OD < 5 = 4K OD = 5 = 5K OD 6 = 6K OD > 6 = 7K I'm not entirely sure how some lower starred maps manage to get such high keys though.
Anyways random key would never work, because the default keycount is balanced for the difficulty its assumed to be. Most of the time, playing a map with a different key will end up with a more or less imbalanced map when reducing keys. When you increase the keys, the balance doesn't seem to be negatively affected as the spread seems to even out as the key count gets higher. Making everything random would ruin the balance and make the whole conversion system a joke.
benguin wrote:
I'm hoping this idea might might resolve the issues between 4K and 7K players that have been going back and forth bickering about mod multipliers and such. The question we must ask ourselves is "what kind of game do we want osumania to be?" This is still up in the air since it's still relatively new. Is osumania supposed to be a 7K game? A 4K game? An 8K game? In my opinion, I think osumania should be a (multi-K)game, in other words, if you want to be good at osumania, you need to be good with playing with any number of keys. We could have osumania come closer to this goal by making the default keycount for each map completely random (as in it will be chosen randomly once and then set at random number and that random number would be the same for everyone) as opposed to having the default keycount increase with the difficulty of the map (which is what is appears to be now.) This doesn't make any sense to me. Each map has one default keycount and you're suggesting that it be any key no matter what the degree of difficulty is. So any old Easy mode can become a 8K mess and noone has any control once so ever at what key their osu map will be converted to until it is ranked and the process picks it? So what about before it is ranked? Is it just going to pick a key count daily?
Right now, the game seems to be favoring 7K players since that's what most of the [insane]'s play at, why not make the game favor no nK players and have them challenge themselves by having them master all keycounts? Again the map is balanced towards the key that is chosen by default. And the challenge doesn't stay the same when you change a map to a certain key by default. I mean the intensity of a 4K conversion of a 7K map isn't guarenteed to be the same as each key has certain rules on how to handle notes.
Your argument is kind of ignoring the existence of other than 7K difficulties in the set. The game isn't favoring 7K, it is assuming that the best spread of notes for a map of an Insane level is 7K. This isn't an arrow key based game and never will be. It is only because those types of games were limited to arrow keys that they had greater note densities and constant note pressing streams. Many of those games make use of repetition to make it intuitive. AKA it places notes in meaningful places which is unlike osu's way of doing things. mania is a different type of rhythm game. It is more like guitar hero in that it includes rhythms based on the playing field available, which allows more notes to be added in the form of different keypresses.
Lowering the keycount in mania is the equivalent of taking all the notes that would be presented well in a 7K and cramming them into a smaller and smaller window. I mentioned before that the spread balance gets better as the keycount gets higher, and not the other way around. This is why that's true. More notes > more keys > more balance
Final note: I made a suggestion to allow us to choose which key our map's convert to in the editor. I suggest you abandon this idea, and go support my idea, because it would allow a more diverse range of keys for intense maps. t/105438
You made a bunch of points, I'm hoping I can address them all >.<
I'll talk about your thoughts on how the determined keycount is figured out now is most beneficial towards making the map "balanced." First of all, I don't see how determining the keycount by OD is the best way to "balance" a map. Also, with your argument, you're implying that every auto-gen insane should be at 8K. It seems like the argument you are trying to make is that the maps would be more difficult because the notes would become more "dense", am I getting this right? I just find it funny that people in this thread also denied this idea for complete opposite reason, saying that an auto-generated 7K with 4K mod would be easier since it has less keys. Like I said in the other thread, what's easier for some is a fine balance between keycount and note density, playing a 7K with 4K mod might be easier for some and harder for others if they can't handle super-dense 4K patterns.
This paragraph is in regards to your first green paragraph. I'm saying the osu should predetermine the default keycount by some unknown-to-the-public formula that spits out a seemingly random number between 4 and 8. I'm sorry if using ranking information in my example confused you, that was just for the sake of showing how a random number could be generated. Something like [(hitcircles+2*sliders+3*spinners + 235) % 9] would work just as fine and with a formula like that, the seemingly random default keycount would be the same each time you play it and it would be the same for you as everyone else as well. I hope that cleared up some confusion.
In regards to your second green paragraph. Yes, there are many maps that are auto-generated to 4K, 5K, and 6K but you are also right in the sense that insane's are usually auto-generated to 7K. I am right in the sense that this mode would currently favor 7K, why? Because pp favors mostly either insane's or hard's at some point; it wouldn't care if you DT/HR/FL/HD SS'ed an [easy] map whose default keycount was 4K. I also don't get the point you are trying to make with saying osumania isn't like stepmania/ffr/etc. I could easily change my skin on osumania to use arrows if I wanted to and I could change my skin in stepmania to be like osumania if I wanted to, the fact that both games you different shapes for what has to be hit doesn't change the game mechanics. Also, 4K rhythm games that use arrows allow the user to set their own key configuration, I most certainly don't use the arrow keys when playing sm/ffr and neither do other top-tier players. As for the last part of your paragraph, I'm sorry but I have no clue what you are getting at or what you are trying to say :/
Cho wrote:
Disagreed, some key modes are easier than others (Comparing a difficult 4K to an easy 7K like I've seen done doesn't prove otherwise) and this just has to be accepted. Saying it has to be fair to Stepmania / other game players is ridiculous because this is osu! mania, not a 4K only rythm game. (Would you expect a 7K player to complain that StepMania seemed to favour 4K players ?)
Please, this is not an argument about which keycount is the easier, there has been both objective and subjective reasons thrown around in this forum and even this thread about how less keys does not always make the map easier (take the classic example if making a map 1K and having to hit 300 bpm stream with one key) Having the game specifically favor JUST 7K players is silly, even the 8K players are at a disadvantage.
Kyou-kun wrote:
7K encompasses 4K and adds more. I don't see how you could think skills from 7K don't transfer to 4K.
I see no reason why not to have separate rankings for all numbers of keys, so then StepMania players can still enjoy the game and the pointless key-changing mods will no longer exist.
You should see all the people on FFR that are godly at Guitar Hero but are god-awful at FFR. A lot of pro GH players that come to FFR are disappointed that their skill barely transfers to 4K (taking GH as a 5K game)
Ok...that's all I have to say for now =u=;