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osu! mapping - "Speedranking"

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Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami

Frostmourne wrote:

nah, i'm sorry for that Kurokami. I honestly say that for the first map is really really extremely hard to get star mark icon before bubble. I faced the stuff like this from Suzully and wmfchris 8 months ago in My map so. t/65919/start=30
But have to say that my case, Suzully and wmfchris explained clearly that why my map was bad.

Please don't give up.. That is all i want you to do :oops:

Scorpiour wrote:

First rank always the threshold for a new mapper. Do not give up, i can say nearly all mappers had faced to that. Some guys crossed that, more failed. Hopes you won't be one the those failed :>
I know its hard to get the first map ranked and I always knew, but I tried. osu! is lack this song so I mapped it. I recently asked TVO to mod it and he said it is looking good to him even tho its hard to map. I don't want to trow more stars to it, since I'm using them to someone else's map which is deserve it. I'm not the same as the guy who thrown many stars for his own map and after that he ignored almost all mod.
I'm unable to do more about this mapset so I leave it as it is. Ordinary modders are already unable to anything with it after all. I will just resurrect it, nothing more.
I mapped my "second" map and asked Andrea for a testplay. He said its looking good to him and this (even if its a lie), coming from my favorite mapper is enough to my to continue as a mapper. So I will never give up, but mods like those makes me rage.

Anyways, I think enough of this off-topic conversation. This topic is not about me or my maps, its about speedranks and the issues with it.

PS: @Frostmurne
That song is one of my favorite. :3
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane

Ephemeral wrote:

i might borrow some db time in the next few days and work out a query to determine who in the BAT is responsible for the statistically highest proportion of speedranks vs normal ranks.

i think you'd find the main offenders quite surprising!
I don't think pointing fingers to the BAT that speedranked maps the most really is the way to go. Actually, I'm pretty sure many BATs if not all of them have speedranked maps before. I'd rather check if said maps are fun to play, because some speedranks can be deserved. I think we all point fingers at Andrea because we're like "This guy has speedranked his maps for several years now and is still doing it, except they're getting unranked, which is a problem". You'd need to check through every single speedranked map, not just Andrea's. I believe it's just a matter of being more careful when modding, bubbling and whatnot in the XAT. Because we regular users are very unforgiving and are very likely to rage at every little mistake these guys make.
Mithos
632 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
Andrea's post makes sense. If XATs modded only the first page of SP, there would be no less perfectly good maps that have to wait so long for ranking. As the high SP maps start to get more rare due to them all being ranked, less SP will be needed for mappers to hit the front page, where they can get the XAT attention their map needs.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

Ephemeral wrote:

i think you'd find the main offenders quite surprising!
I'm a take a guess and say,

1) Larto, Mash, jar, DC
2) ztrot
3) James
4) DJPop
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Ephemeral wrote:

if andrea has ranked more than 900 maps and has speedranked say 20 or 30 maps
I think the issue is the maps of his that have been speedranked, not the maps that he has speedranked (if any), the number you pointed out is the ammount of maps that Andrea has ranked, not the ammount of ranked maps that he has, also i'm pretty sure about more than half of his maps have been "speedranked", then again, as said before, this is an issue with the BATs that rank them, not with Andrea.
Mithos
632 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
It's not exactly on topic but I found this while looking around the ranking criteria...

The mapset must have a well-designed spread of difficulties, containing at least an Easy or a Normal difficulty (based on how the map feels): this is so that players of all levels of experience are able to enjoy maps of the songs they love. It's really hard to define how a specific spread could work in a specific song beforehand, but here's a list of things to consider: the difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order and/or with a reasonable gap between them; there should be at least one difficulty around ~2.5/3 star difficulty level; if your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be insane (this basically means that it's highly recommended to have 3 difficulties unless the song itself doesn't allow much variety); if your mapset has three difficulties, one of them should be about ~2.5/3 star difficulty level, and the second should not be Insane; if your map has four or more difficulties, at least two should be something other than Insane.
I don't want to pick on andrea or anything, I know many other mappers have broken this too.
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin
Insane =/= hard?
D33d
1,699 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

ouranhshc wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

i think you'd find the main offenders quite surprising!
I'm a take a guess and say,

1) Larto, Mash, jar, DC
2) ztrot
3) James
4) DJPop
Are you having a Steffi Graf?
Jarby
2,962 posts
Joined August 2008
Jarby

ouranhshc wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

i think you'd find the main offenders quite surprising!
I'm a take a guess and say,

1) Larto, Mash, jar, DC
Main offenders of great mapping, yeah.
D33d
1,699 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
itt ouran is a black natteke
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
This is off-topic. Stop now.

Marcin and Mithost: many people use "Hard" as a replacement for Insanes nowadays, and no one gives a shit about it.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
true story.
2-diffs short/tv-size maps are SO half assed.
Mithos
632 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

true story.
2-diffs short/tv-size maps are SO half assed.
I wanted to say this in a way that didn't target anyone. I feel kinda cheated for some reason when a song I like has only 2 difficulties to play, especially when it happens to be a cut version, or it's just not mapped after the 2 minute mark. I'm working on my first serious "I'm going to get this ranked" map and although I was tempted to cut the song at 2 mins, I know that I would feel a lot better getting it ranked with it being the full 3 and a half minutes included, especially when that's the best part of the song. Having only 2 difficulties also makes it hard to progress with as a new player. Trying to do a normal>insane jump without a hard is very... threatening (not sure if I got the right word there...)
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
This is a thread about speedranking, not 2 diff mapsets. 2 diff mapsets are a choice and are rankable, and in most cases rarely used. Should open a new topic about it if you want to discuss it though.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane
it's like we're saying nothing at all
nothing at all
nothing at all
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin

lolcubes wrote:

This is a thread about speedranking, not 2 diff mapsets. 2 diff mapsets are a choice and are rankable, and in most cases rarely used. Should open a new topic about it if you want to discuss it though.
2 diffs created by well-known mappers which knows them speed ranked, that's how it works.
FUCK YOU NEW PAGE
Alright to clear things out: I have about 19k maps in library, and created simply program which counts number of maps with with number of diffs <will expand functionality tomorrow>

As you can see mapsets with 2 diffs is 1/2 of mapsets with 4 diffs, statment provided by lolcubes is wrong.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
so amost half of the ranked have <4 diffs. ( and 15% of times isn't anyway "rare"... maybe uncommon? )
I can usually understand long maps being formed by 3-4 diffs. I can't understand short versions having 3-4 diffs.

Last Andrea ranked was an half-assed 2-diffs mapset. So having an higher limit( 2 for maps longer than 3 min, 3 for maps shorter than 3 min, 4 for map shorter than 1m and 30s, maybe) could be a good idea to slow up the ranking of half-assed mapsets
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

So having an higher limit( 2 for maps longer than 3 min, 3 for maps shorter than 3 min, 4 for map shorter than 1m and 30s, maybe) could be a good idea to slow up the ranking of half-assed mapsets
THIS.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE

Marcin wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

So having an higher limit( 2 for maps longer than 3 min, 3 for maps shorter than 3 min, 4 for map shorter than 1m and 30s, maybe) could be a good idea to slow up the ranking of half-assed mapsets
THIS.
No.
Half-assed maps will always be half-assed, no matter how many diffs they have.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

So having an higher limit( 2 for maps longer than 3 min, 3 for maps shorter than 3 min, 4 for map shorter than 1m and 30s, maybe) could be a good idea to slow up the ranking of half-assed mapsets
If the song is not good for 4 diff then this rule will be broken. In theory this sound good, but when its actually counts this will be useless. This will always depends on the song itself.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Every song is good to map 2 diffs. 2+2 ? (2 osu! + 2 Taiko) for example
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Every song is good to map 2 diffs. 2+2 ? (2 osu! + 2 Taiko) for example
2 diff is okay. (easy/normal+hard) speaking of standard diffs. But force the mapper to make 2 other when its clear they will not fit there is just stupid.

Or you mean 4 diff with 2 standard and 2 taiko here?

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

So having an higher limit( 2 for maps longer than 3 min, 3 for maps shorter than 3 min, 4 for map shorter than 1m and 30s, maybe) could be a good idea to slow up the ranking of half-assed mapsets
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
2 standard and 2 taiko, still 4 diff, still you can't lament the fact that map can't be mapped in more ways.
Mithos
632 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
This thread isn't about difficulty spread or halfassed maps. It's about halfassed speedranks that get unranked because they shouldn't have gotten ranked in the first place
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Well, while this could be a good mod to the rules, it'll add other reasons to not permit halfassed speedrank.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Marcin wrote:

I have about 19k maps in library
...
As you can see mapsets with 2 diffs is 1/2 of mapsets with 4 diffs, statment provided by lolcubes is wrong.
19k is nothing. Also, there are tons of approval maps which have 1 or 2 diffs. Quite some really old maps have 2 diffs. So your numbers aren't exactly accurate.

lolcubes wrote:

This is a thread about speedranking, not 2 diff mapsets. 2 diff mapsets are a choice and are rankable, and in most cases rarely used. Should open a new topic about it if you want to discuss it though.
Can we stay on topic?
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
If you guys are so worried about said map(s) getting speedranked and then de-ranked because of issues why not mod them yourself?
Not trying to be rude but it's a better solution then complaining about it, putting your input in will lessen the chance of it happening.
What do you do? Go look at recently bubbled maps that have recent submission days. Find something wrong, point it out. If there is nothing wrong then you have no control over it being ranked or not. (Unless you are the BAT ranking it.)
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,963 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
marcin's data is almost perfectly distributed.. i wouldn't throw away his results based on a 7k sample size either - that is statistically sound stuff.
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin
//offtopic
Not sure if sarcasm, or not.
//ontopic
I can download more maps and recheck D:
//offtopic again
Ephermal if you are able to: can you provide me json api which will send me ranking process <submitted, 1# bubble, <optionally 2# bubble> ranked, deranked, and again ranked, especially DATE of when they were done> based on GET map ID ? It'll allow me to make better statistics which will show: The longest ranking process, the shorter, and the average of time needed to rank map / get bubble per users.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,963 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
i can't extend API like that for you, but if i manage to steal some database time i can have that queried myself without needing an API.
Mithos
632 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos

MMzz wrote:

If you guys are so worried about said map(s) getting speedranked and then de-ranked because of issues why not mod them yourself?
Not trying to be rude but it's a better solution then complaining about it, putting your input in will lessen the chance of it happening.
What do you do? Go look at recently bubbled maps that have recent submission days. Find something wrong, point it out. If there is nothing wrong then you have no control over it being ranked or not. (Unless you are the BAT ranking it.)
I think the problem we found with speedranking is that they are ranked too fast for us to find all of the problems. Once I stop having the busiest week of my life I'll get back into modding (already modded 1 map recently muahaha)
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
I agree with speedranking maps, if is map quality very high.
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin
NEEECROOO
Mithos
632 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
speedranking is bad, mmmkk?
Marcin
osu! Alumni
4,944 posts
Joined March 2011
Marcin

Mithost wrote:

speedranking is bad, mmmkk?
YEAH YEAH, it's bad and no-one cares.
D33d
1,699 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Mithost wrote:

MMzz wrote:

If you guys are so worried about said map(s) getting speedranked and then de-ranked because of issues why not mod them yourself?
Not trying to be rude but it's a better solution then complaining about it, putting your input in will lessen the chance of it happening.
What do you do? Go look at recently bubbled maps that have recent submission days. Find something wrong, point it out. If there is nothing wrong then you have no control over it being ranked or not. (Unless you are the BAT ranking it.)
I think the problem we found with speedranking is that they are ranked too fast for us to find all of the problems. Once I stop having the busiest week of my life I'll get back into modding (already modded 1 map recently muahaha)
Basically this. The sentiment has already been echoed by several people in the thread, so missing that was kind of silly.

Also, we can totally have control if we whine at the staff enough, teehee.
Lance
626 posts
Joined August 2010
Lance
t/101986&start=0

Okay. I understand that the mapset itself is fine, but getting a speedrank in under 48 hours with only two maps for personal reasons? Since when has the beatmap ranking page been a place to display your personal life? I simply don't understand why it was ranked so quickly. And please don't call me a "heartless hater" for bringing this up. I'm just worried that other mappers might get discouraged by this.
Last edited by Lance , edited 2 times in total.
D33d
1,699 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
That's just sad.
Seph
Seph

Lance wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/101986&start=0

Okay. I understand that the map itself is fine, but getting a speedrank in under 48 hours with only two DIFFS for personal reasons? Since when has the beatmap ranking page been a place to display your personal life? I simply don't understand why it was ranked so quickly. And please don't call me a "heartless hater" for bringing this up. I'm just worried that other mappers might get discouraged by this.
fix'd something for you.

And yeah its pretty disappointing, as Sakura said there was a higher SP map but wasn't touched, and yet this map of someone going emo over some girl gets ranked that fast, and it only has 2 diffs (talk about being lazy). I cannot give a damn if you're going through something emotional but please, you have a position on the team so please keep it professional, not that no one cares about what's going on with you but mind you this is a game.

This is just pretty much unfair for mappers waiting in a very long line.
Lance
626 posts
Joined August 2010
Lance

Seph wrote:

DIFFS
I consider each "diff" as you refer to it as a map in a map set. I think each individual difficulty can be called a map since... well that makes sense. But to each their own.

ps- I just realized I didn't call it a mapset in the original post. Fixed >_>
Mercurial
Mercurial
Not this shit again.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Off-Topic
A diff as most people call it is a map (or beatmap), a collection of multiple difficulties (beatmaps) is a mapset (Beatmap set).

On topic:

Do you have any proof that the "emotional intention" of the mapset was what brought it's "speedrank" up?, fwiw the BAT could have gone "oh cool an Andrea map, let's mod it!" which as i said, i still think the higher SP map should have been modded first, but that's something I would do. If you really want to point fingers, then you better load them with proof that there was bias or anything involved otherwise your arguments hold no water.

The mapset was fine, there were no errors, it was ranked fast? so what, continue on with your life, discussing a map just because it was ranked fast is wasting time you could be spending... i dont know modding someone else's map so you can get it's Sp higher so it gets looked at faster? Use your time in something productive rather than waste it here discussing something that needs no discussion.

Unfair? Maybe, but then again, how much have the other mappers promoted their maps? how high is their SP? are they at least visible on the first or second page of pending?.

If you have time to complain about someone's map getting ranked faster than yours, you have time to mod other people's maps to increase your own map's SP so it gets looked at faster, the difference? on the first one no one wins, on the second one, everyone wins.
BrokenArrow
2,237 posts
Joined June 2010
BrokenArrow
So much ^this.
zeroclover
468 posts
Joined December 2010
zeroclover
again and again. . .

Weez
2,318 posts
Joined February 2009
Weez
Don't see why a few people are getting all anal about this map. So it was ranked within 48hrs, so what? If the map had mistakes, little to no mods, and/or was unranked then that's a valid reason to be concerned about. But looking over the thread, there a good number of mods and the map looks good enough to deserve a rank. Having 2 diffs is enough for a rank and they are all by Andrea himself plus this song is a fairly slow song. Look at the relaxing Ranking Charts; 5 maps have 2 diffs only and they are sufficient enough to be on a themed chart.

People are just finding the little things to pick on Andrea now, just get over it and focus on getting your own maps rank which I need to get on >.<
Seph
Seph

Sakura wrote:

Off-Topic
A diff as most people call it is a map (or beatmap), a collection of multiple difficulties (beatmaps) is a mapset (Beatmap set).

On topic:

Do you have any proof that the "emotional intention" of the mapset was what brought it's "speedrank" up?, fwiw the BAT could have gone "oh cool an Andrea map, let's mod it!" which as i said, i still think the higher SP map should have been modded first, but that's something I would do. If you really want to point fingers, then you better load them with proof that there was bias or anything involved otherwise your arguments hold no water.

The mapset was fine, there were no errors, it was ranked fast? so what, continue on with your life, discussing a map just because it was ranked fast is wasting time you could be spending... i dont know modding someone else's map so you can get it's Sp higher so it gets looked at faster? Use your time in something productive rather than waste it here discussing something that needs no discussion.

Unfair? Maybe, but then again, how much have the other mappers promoted their maps? how high is their SP? are they at least visible on the first or second page of pending?.

If you have time to complain about someone's map getting ranked faster than yours, you have time to mod other people's maps to increase your own map's SP so it gets looked at faster, the difference? on the first one no one wins, on the second one, everyone wins.
Then tell him not to bring personal things in the game and keep it professional? I don't find that hard to do.
And no haha, don't give me that reason, even if he didn't make this map out of his emotinal distress this still happens. And quite frankly I am suprised to see two diffs from him, not even kidding. And just so you know no map is flawless, why do you even think they get modded?

Lol its funny, no one's being biased really. It just so happens that most of speedranked maps comes from him. And you just said it yourself, mod other people's maps to increase your own map's SP, can I ask what happened?

Edit: No one's picking on Andrea, Weez. Why, is it our fault that almost all of every speedranked maps come from him? And remember, prevention is better than cure.
Mercurial
Mercurial
Man, my first map was ranked in about 11 months, and I'm not complaining about speedranks or something related.

Don't you like it? Surrender then.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane
Shut up, Mercurial.

You're bringing nothing to the conversation.
Mercurial
Mercurial
This topic died few months ago.

It's very irrelevant now.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane

Mr Color wrote:

Shut up, Mercurial.

You're bringing nothing to the conversation.
BrokenArrow
2,237 posts
Joined June 2010
BrokenArrow
You don't do either.
Mercurial
Mercurial

BrokenArrow's Signature wrote:

Fuck has successfully been given.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane

BrokenArrow wrote:

You don't do either.

I'd rather be deaf than to hear this. Read the whole thread again and tell me I haven't been contributing to the discussion.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

Sakura wrote:

Off-Topic
A diff as most people call it is a map (or beatmap), a collection of multiple difficulties (beatmaps) is a mapset (Beatmap set).

On topic:

Do you have any proof that the "emotional intention" of the mapset was what brought it's "speedrank" up?, fwiw the BAT could have gone "oh cool an Andrea map, let's mod it!" which as i said, i still think the higher SP map should have been modded first, but that's something I would do. If you really want to point fingers, then you better load them with proof that there was bias or anything involved otherwise your arguments hold no water.

The mapset was fine, there were no errors, it was ranked fast? so what, continue on with your life, discussing a map just because it was ranked fast is wasting time you could be spending... i dont know modding someone else's map so you can get it's Sp higher so it gets looked at faster? Use your time in something productive rather than waste it here discussing something that needs no discussion.

Unfair? Maybe, but then again, how much have the other mappers promoted their maps? how high is their SP? are they at least visible on the first or second page of pending?.

If you have time to complain about someone's map getting ranked faster than yours, you have time to mod other people's maps to increase your own map's SP so it gets looked at faster, the difference? on the first one no one wins, on the second one, everyone wins.
The problem?
I won't waste that many kudosus on my map.

WIth that new system, giving too many kudosu to your map is wasting them. Like giving too many to other maps ( I can understand like... 4... but 27 in some?)

And the problem is pretty much that many maps really deserve to be ranked more than those speedranked.

But I suppose that's oversayed and bringing it another time is just losing time.
Last edited by HakuNoKaemi , edited 1 time in total.
BrokenArrow
2,237 posts
Joined June 2010
BrokenArrow
I was actually talking about your last 2 (3) posts. And I know I'm not better right now, but fuck it. This will get locked in the near future anyways.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane
Okay, you want something productive? Let's go. It'll be better than your whining or Mercurial's immature "posts", promised.

I've talked about the map in its thread, I don't think I have much more to add.

There's an interesting factor about that map though, it almost sounds like it was rushed for ranking for something unrelated to beatmapping itself. Now, I understand Andrea's motives, and the intent behind this map are true feelings of love that I completely support, but I have to play the grumpy guy again and remind people that while the gesture might be beautiful, it's still a map like the others and as such shouldn't receive any kind of special treatment.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Let's do something productive and lock this thread so you guys can take a couple days to cool your heads off
dkun
osu! Alumni
4,486 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
dkun
I wish for this thread to be locked. Not for a specific period of time, but forever.

As I still see this as an issue (which has died down in its own), it's been proven to me that the community can't work together to come up with a viable solution (as I thought it was possible when I was writing this).

Mapping will always be mapping, the initial argument is still in the OP.

I thank those that did participate and did contribute actively to the cause, but I guess this is the end of it.
The only thing I can hope is that maps will go through the proper modding process and won't take the "shortcuts" I've listed in the OP. And I hope you all do your jobs as a modder/mapper/staff member here at osu! to do your part.

:oops:
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