So much hate lol
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Performance Points
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just sick of people crying about how their epic ultra scores didn't give them pp at all.
peppy please fix standard maps giving more pp than taiko difficulties. there's a huge skill-difference between them, and it's annoying to see easy/normal #1 hunters having a better overall rank than people who are at least ABLE to get into the top 40 of a taiko diff. (while those easy/normal rankers barely pass them)
peppy please fix standard maps giving more pp than taiko difficulties. there's a huge skill-difference between them, and it's annoying to see easy/normal #1 hunters having a better overall rank than people who are at least ABLE to get into the top 40 of a taiko diff. (while those easy/normal rankers barely pass them)
same can be done with standard lowering the pp you get from hards or increasing the pp you get from insanes
Well, this is a thread made to point out questions and discuss about the system in general. So we post its errors in order for peppy to fix them...BrokenArrow wrote:
just sick of people crying about how their epic ultra scores didn't give them pp at all.
peppy please fix standard maps giving more pp than taiko difficulties. there's a huge skill-difference between them, and it's annoying to see easy/normal #1 hunters having a better overall rank than people who are at least ABLE to get into the top 40 of a taiko diff. (while those easy/normal rankers barely pass them)
It's okay if you don't care, though that "0 fucks given" was unnecesary, and no, i'm not crying or anything. It's just weird, that's all
yeah I forgot for 1 minute that this isn't Offtopic, my fault.VelperK wrote:
Well, this is a thread made to point out questions and discuss about the system in general. So we post its errors in order for peppy to fix them...BrokenArrow wrote:
just sick of people crying about how their epic ultra scores didn't give them pp at all.
peppy please fix standard maps giving more pp than taiko difficulties. there's a huge skill-difference between them, and it's annoying to see easy/normal #1 hunters having a better overall rank than people who are at least ABLE to get into the top 40 of a taiko diff. (while those easy/normal rankers barely pass them)
It's okay if you don't care, though that "0 fucks given" was unnecesary, and no, i'm not crying or anything. It's just weird, that's all
Krep, it gives 0pp because that song is not hard enough in the pp system ...
lol
BrokenArrow wrote:
just sick of people crying about how their epic ultra scores didn't give them pp at all.
peppy please fix standard maps giving more pp than taiko difficulties. there's a huge skill-difference between them, and it's annoying to see easy/normal #1 hunters having a better overall rank than people who are at least ABLE to get into the top 40 of a taiko diff. (while those easy/normal rankers barely pass them)
This should get fixed.
Wait for proper taiko difficulty ratings first.
And in any case, taiko specific maps do give significantly more PP, undoubtedly.
And in any case, taiko specific maps do give significantly more PP, undoubtedly.
A's killing the PP. DXVelperK wrote:
It's just weird, that's all
This reminds me of another bad example:
I had a #27 and a #23 on the same map. same Diff, different time. The #27 gave me 8 PP but I thought I could increase my score a bit more and made it to #23 - and of the 8PP given were 6 left. Because #27 was SS and #23 S.
I don't want to sound impatient, but...is the Hard-Insane issue something peppy is currently considering? I think it's a serious issue that's somewhat undermining the purpose of the system right now. Getting better at the game and increasing pp should be synonymous, but I've found it's infinitely more pp-efficient to rank Hards than to actually play difficult Insanes. I've been trying to ignore pp and do what's best for my skill, but it's frustrating when I get 0-1 pp from spending an hour on a HD FC of an Insane or even a nomod FC of a more difficult Insane, then turn around and get 20 pp from spending 5 minutes on a HD+DT FC of some random Hard.
I think a potential contributing factor is that the skill distribution on the Hard leaderboards is a lot different than any other. Few top players waste their time with Hards, so with those scores conspicuously absent, ranking Hards is trivial for any decent Insane player. Furthermore, people who spend their time 3 or 4-mod SS'ing songs far beneath their level are mostly ranking Easy/Normals, and similarly don't waste time on Hards. So not only are there not many people playing Hards (making it far easier to rank at least #500), the people who do play Hards are mostly players who are actually at that level of play. I suspect that the ratio of "high-skill" plays on Hards (FC's with at least 1 mod) to non-FC's is a lot more skewed than any other difficulty, so when someone throws together a HD+DT FC, the system erroneously thinks they're really good. And even if the Insane distribution is similar, because there are so many more Insane scores, even if I do better than 95% of them, it often won't get me anything due to the hard #500 cap. I know peppy said not to think about it, but honestly, as long as it's there, it's impossible not to think about it. That's like telling an Olympian not to worry about other athletes' scores.
7 of my top plays are random of Hards I did on a whim. As someone who considers himself an Insane player, that's honestly kind of embarrassing. A re-balancing of the system will probably hurt my pp considerably, but I wouldn't care. I just want to know that doing harder things is giving me more pp than doing easier things.
I think a potential contributing factor is that the skill distribution on the Hard leaderboards is a lot different than any other. Few top players waste their time with Hards, so with those scores conspicuously absent, ranking Hards is trivial for any decent Insane player. Furthermore, people who spend their time 3 or 4-mod SS'ing songs far beneath their level are mostly ranking Easy/Normals, and similarly don't waste time on Hards. So not only are there not many people playing Hards (making it far easier to rank at least #500), the people who do play Hards are mostly players who are actually at that level of play. I suspect that the ratio of "high-skill" plays on Hards (FC's with at least 1 mod) to non-FC's is a lot more skewed than any other difficulty, so when someone throws together a HD+DT FC, the system erroneously thinks they're really good. And even if the Insane distribution is similar, because there are so many more Insane scores, even if I do better than 95% of them, it often won't get me anything due to the hard #500 cap. I know peppy said not to think about it, but honestly, as long as it's there, it's impossible not to think about it. That's like telling an Olympian not to worry about other athletes' scores.
7 of my top plays are random of Hards I did on a whim. As someone who considers himself an Insane player, that's honestly kind of embarrassing. A re-balancing of the system will probably hurt my pp considerably, but I wouldn't care. I just want to know that doing harder things is giving me more pp than doing easier things.
LOL MY NAME IS JESSE
I don't think this has to do anything with this thread.jesse1412 wrote:
LOL MY NAME IS JESSE
no, he single-handedly resolved this whole issue.Kurokami wrote:
I don't think this has to do anything with this thread.jesse1412 wrote:
LOL MY NAME IS JESSE
LOL..?? seriously 0 pp VelperK!VelperK wrote:
http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=27737&m=2
0 pp
That was one of hardest songs and with Hidden you did [[ anyway you are amazing]]
3 pp, that's fair! system works fine for me xD
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/114882&m=0
1 pp master race
Not sure what to think. Is this supposed to give you a low pp score? It doesn't really make much sense to me, considering a #33 gave me +-30 pp and I'd consider the former to be much more difficult than the latter.
1 pp master race
Not sure what to think. Is this supposed to give you a low pp score? It doesn't really make much sense to me, considering a #33 gave me +-30 pp and I'd consider the former to be much more difficult than the latter.
Again I had a pp drop.. I'm stuck at 4220-4227.
Yesterday I was 4253 .. And the peak only says i was 4226 ¬¬ wtf is wrong with this ? I can see people who keeps ranking and ranking... And nothing to me :/ .They don't drop as much as me.. Does anyone know why ?
Btw, I'm always ranking songs in SS Hidden and nothing happens.. =/
When would the sign that says "Yes, I am making constant changes to the calculations" [...] dissapear ?
I want to know if I'm the only one who had this problem and if this will be fixed.. (will ppy give us the PP dropped for no reason?)
If I'm wrong and this is not a problem, please help me, and tell me what's going on!
Thanks for the attention!
btw I'm not good at english , sry.
edit : My pp rank doesnt seem to be changing so much.. But I know that Later it will drop to 620 or something like that. (Im 579)
I'm having this problem almost 3 days ago in ctb.
Yesterday I was 4253 .. And the peak only says i was 4226 ¬¬ wtf is wrong with this ? I can see people who keeps ranking and ranking... And nothing to me :/ .They don't drop as much as me.. Does anyone know why ?
Btw, I'm always ranking songs in SS Hidden and nothing happens.. =/
When would the sign that says "Yes, I am making constant changes to the calculations" [...] dissapear ?
I want to know if I'm the only one who had this problem and if this will be fixed.. (will ppy give us the PP dropped for no reason?)
If I'm wrong and this is not a problem, please help me, and tell me what's going on!
Thanks for the attention!
btw I'm not good at english , sry.
edit : My pp rank doesnt seem to be changing so much.. But I know that Later it will drop to 620 or something like that. (Im 579)
I'm having this problem almost 3 days ago in ctb.
Jordan wrote:
ok I got no pp from http://osu.ppy.sh/b/699
what
the
fuck
A similar thing happened to me in this map: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/132411
Not an "easy" insane, though it wasn't a really crazy map, but I somehow managed to get it with DT+HD and ranked #4 getting a better score AND acc than Darksonic, Tom94, Rain, JAKANYAN, WhiteWolf and other REALLY skilled players, but didn't even get 1pp from that song.
Also I managed to get #7 on this one: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/90452?m=0 , and got like 50pp from that one.
my graph hasnt updated in 3 days :/
Man, I feel so pro whenever I gain 1 pp
I get pp drops since 3-4 consecutive days \o/
all of them happen when it is evening-night in germany.
all of them happen when it is evening-night in germany.
That is because the maps you played have been de-valuated fast. Usually new maps. I gained about 50 pp for one map (it was a new map), and when pp loss was calculated I lost 26 pp on that map. I think this is actually working as intended.Tanzklaue wrote:
I get pp drops since 3-4 consecutive days \o/
all of them happen when it is evening-night in germany.
Also some of your year long scores might have been fading out.
Same happened to me with a #1 on a new maplolcubes wrote:
That is because the maps you played have been de-valuated fast. Usually new maps. I gained about 50 pp for one map (it was a new map), and when pp loss was calculated I lost 26 pp on that map. I think this is actually working as intended.Tanzklaue wrote:
I get pp drops since 3-4 consecutive days \o/
all of them happen when it is evening-night in germany.
Also some of your year long scores might have been fading out.
That has never happened to me
my pp's Origin is Stillness
my pp's Origin is Stillness
lost 7 pp after 12 days of doing nothing
feels good when you gain most of your pp from becoming top 100 - 500on pro insanes.
feels good when you gain most of your pp from becoming top 100 - 500on pro insanes.
lol no my pp stood still even when I took a 1 month breakG0r wrote:
You may play so much that you even out or gain.
yes that's the best choice of words for this
stood still
stood
i did this yesterday and i actually lost 1pp instead lol
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/85874
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/85874
Yesterday my PP suddenly somehow rocketed to 2k and today it drop again to 1,3k 
Bummer.Geryon wrote:
Yesterday my PP suddenly somehow rocketed to 2k and today it drop again to 1,3k
http://osu.ppy.sh/u/270396
2341pp, rank 58110
My PP and my rank don't follow. :/ For some reason my rank went from 38k down to 58k last night, even as my PP should make my rank the former. I was previously at rank 56k with 1711 pp.
2341pp, rank 58110
My PP and my rank don't follow. :/ For some reason my rank went from 38k down to 58k last night, even as my PP should make my rank the former. I was previously at rank 56k with 1711 pp.
Perfect bonus is surprisingly high... a bit lower?
Many hards give less points that the respective sets Insane as referred by some players
EDIT:
I expected a #560 Insane and a #168 Hard "did" gave some pp. Instead I losed 1 pp.
Many hards give less points that the respective sets Insane as referred by some players
EDIT:
I expected a #560 Insane and a #168 Hard "did" gave some pp. Instead I losed 1 pp.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say but if you are wondering why you got pp for passing the hard map and not the insane you probably haven't read anything available regarding pp otherwise you would know exactly why a rank over 500 would give less than a rank under 500. You do however seem to have a point - hard difficulties can give just as much, if not more than an insane. If it's not the hardest difficulty it shouldn't give pp after a player has accumulated a certain amount of pp (tweaked for approved maps). A players pp from easy maps should be limited to say 500 in total, normals 1000 in total, insane 2500 in total and approved/higher tier 3000 in total. Of course this would be a terrible system and giving pp based on a maps actual difficulty would be 200% more accurate.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
Perfect bonus is surprisingly high... a bit lower?
Many hards give less points that the respective sets Insane as referred by some players
EDIT:
I expected a #560 Insane and a #168 Hard "did" gave some pp. Instead I losed 1 pp.
Right now it's like someone has picked a bunch of random maps and then took a random difficulty inside said maps and put them as the most rewarding save for a few high reward maps.
Currently this: Beck - Timebomb (IcePagoda) [Normal]
Is worth more than freedom dive on four dimensions.
nrii_old
take the list with a pinch of salt, didnt winshley rank 1 that with a hd fl SS and only gain 20 pp at 5.2k? even though the weighting is lower on 4d i bet if he rank 1'd it he'd be gaining 80+ ATLEASTjesse1412 wrote:
Currently this: Beck - Timebomb (IcePagoda) [Normal]
Is worth more than freedom dive on four dimensions.
i gained 40 for a rank 1 i set the other day at 5.7k pp and it was like 300th overall on that list
I was pointing out how this map was worth nothing on pp, while most hards give more and are much easier. It's not because it's old or it has received a few plays, so I guess there's some problem in the algorhythmjesse1412 wrote:
I'm not sure what you are trying to say but if you are wondering why you got pp for passing the hard map and not the insane you probably haven't read anything available regarding pp otherwise you would know exactly why a rank over 500 would give less than a rank under 500. You do however seem to have a point - hard difficulties can give just as much, if not more than an insane. If it's not the hardest difficulty it shouldn't give pp after a player has accumulated a certain amount of pp (tweaked for approved maps). A players pp from easy maps should be limited to say 500 in total, normals 1000 in total, insane 2500 in total and approved/higher tier 3000 in total. Of course this would be a terrible system and giving pp based on a maps actual difficulty would be 200% more accurate.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
Perfect bonus is surprisingly high... a bit lower?
Many hards give less points that the respective sets Insane as referred by some players
EDIT:
I expected a #560 Insane and a #168 Hard "did" gave some pp. Instead I losed 1 pp.
Right now it's like someone has picked a bunch of random maps and then took a random difficulty inside said maps and put them as the most rewarding save for a few high reward maps.
Currently this: Beck - Timebomb (IcePagoda) [Normal]
Is worth more than freedom dive on four dimensions.
This give seriously more points than it should, for example
AH, I didn't strangely get points for passing Insane and Hard of Bokutomo's OP(map linked in my previous post), instead I saw my pp decaying by 1 point ( I losed 1 point )
Did you play something a year ago? Because another map might have reached that magic 1 year number, which makes it worth no pp.
this chocoliti guy seems to have gained at least 200pp from when cookiezi played for him, and none of the scores are even FC as far as i can see. imagin if someone beat him on freedom dive another, or got FC on 4D, im sure they would gain more than just a bit of pp
edit: unless you are serea, then you dont get any
edit: unless you are serea, then you dont get any
A thing I like about pp is that there is actually some hope in getting higher ranks without grinding on easy insanes for score. I'm #88 for taiko in Canada, #7108 world wide! I've been enjoying this system.
that's only the case in taiko. in standard, grinding is a possibility.Mithost wrote:
A thing I like about pp is that there is actually some hope in getting higher ranks without grinding on easy insanes for score. I'm #88 for taiko in Canada, #7108 world wide! I've been enjoying this system.
0 pp for that rank 1 ? o_Osilmarilen wrote:
this chocoliti guy seems to have gained at least 200pp from when cookiezi played for him, and none of the scores are even FC as far as i can see. imagin if someone beat him on freedom dive another, or got FC on 4D, im sure they would gain more than just a bit of pp
edit: unless you are serea, then you dont get any
yep, he got 0pp
There are map that are worth MANY pp that are 4 years old. That map was worth no pp while being LESS than 3 month old. and still played like high-pp worthy maps.lolcubes wrote:
Did you play something a year ago? Because another map might have reached that magic 1 year number, which makes it worth no pp.
So the algorhythm need some adjustment.
hes saying that you might have gotten a score 1 year ago, so that stopped giving pp.
I'm so bad at this game, a map that should be worth 0 pp by now is still up in my top pp maps orz
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/44348?m=0
That's my best performance ever and I played that like 1 or 2 times only, this is kind of random.
That's my best performance ever and I played that like 1 or 2 times only, this is kind of random.
Looks like it's possible to lose pp after going up in map rankings. Was 3885 right before I played, became 3881 right after. The difference is, previous highscore had 94.07% acc, and new one has 90.84. Well, the more you know... :3
It does seem that accuracy matters the most in the whole pp system.
and you had to bump a 1month old topic for this instead of using the one thats on the front page already?
Welp, I got here via viewing my own posts rather than browsing forums, so I didn't know about other topic :3
Edit: woo, magic
Edit: woo, magic
Tanzklaue wrote:
I'm so bad at this game, a map that should be worth 0 pp by now is still up in my top pp maps orz
apparently even my top ranks are worth no more then 1pp \
/ranked on all kinds of stuff lately, i get 1 pp, barely. I guess you need to SS the map? not just rank high? ><
it depends on:
the total amount of plays
your rank on the map
your current pp
the accuracy you get
possibly the pass rate
use of mods
and probably other things
the total amount of plays
your rank on the map
your current pp
the accuracy you get
possibly the pass rate
use of mods
and probably other things
nope, I played an old map that gave me a relatively high amount of pp for it's difficulty and a new map that gave me no pp and was much more difficult.
The algorithm should be adjust to weight more on the difficulty of the map than the date of ranking/number of plays.
Yet a new difficulty rating system IS needed.
The algorithm should be adjust to weight more on the difficulty of the map than the date of ranking/number of plays.
Yet a new difficulty rating system IS needed.
actual difficulty has no influence on pp afaik, serea getting 0 pp for his #1 on freedom dive proves that
silmarilen wrote:
it depends on:
the total amount of plays
your rank on the map
your current pp
the accuracy you get
possibly the pass rate
use of mods
and probably other things
However, Accuracy and the amount of plays on the map seem to be weighed far too high. If one gets a far better rank on a map with worse acc (by using HR for example) he will have less pp than before (at least that seems to happen quite often from what I read in this and other threads)
my 94% acc hd+hr (od10) gave me the same pp than an ss nomod on that map
This doesn't surprise me.silmarilen wrote:
my 94% acc hd+hr (od10) gave me the same pp than an ss nomod on that map
It's the low accuracy. I've had the same thing happen. Does not surprise me either. It hurts even worse if you got a 50, or a lot of 100s spread out over more combos, or if there was a slider that got 100.Laharl wrote:
This doesn't surprise me.silmarilen wrote:
my 94% acc hd+hr (od10) gave me the same pp than an ss nomod on that map
its od10, and it had quite some streams in them, even 94% is good then
It just appears that the PP system only cares about how accurate you are, that you didn't get fifties, that you got a complete FC, and that you didn't break a lot of combos. I've actually lost PP by getting low accuracy or any of these other things on a map that I already SS'd, or Hiddened with good accuracy. I just try to do even better. That'd be frustrating, if it happened on a tough map like yours, though.
So the strategy for high ranks is still grinding Hidden/Hardrock/Doubletime SS's? okay.
yep, and preferably on mediums/hards.
Eh, if you do that on a medium difficulty map, I don't know that you get much more than an insane HD SS.
depends on which rank you get and which accuracy you've got on a medium/hard map.G0r wrote:
Eh, if you do that on a medium difficulty map, I don't know that you get much more than an insane HD SS.
I guess its somewhat balanced on that point as the public for both difficulty groups are quite even public wise, but moreso its more feasable to do it on an easier map. In any case, you'd earn more in the long run unless you're really skilled and accurate.
I played some hard maps with DT and hidden. I got ranks below 100 and the next day my pp rank drop about 1500 places. This system is not working..... And never going to work. Score ranking is much better.
Mikroudz wrote:
I played some hard maps with DT and hidden. I got ranks below 100 and the next day my pp rank drop about 1500 places. This system is not working..... And never going to work. Score ranking is much better.
Huh?
So you actually do expect to be rewarded for getting a rank #65 with a B and stuff?
You'd better read what the system is like and not boot it down to the ground instantly through your own "performance"
You'd better read what the system is like and not boot it down to the ground instantly through your own "performance"
You're either playing new songs, where people rank above you more often, or Hard difficulties, which barely give pp at allMikroudz wrote:
I played some hard maps with DT and hidden. I got ranks below 100 and the next day my pp rank drop about 1500 places. This system is not working..... And never going to work. Score ranking is much better.
Saying the system sucks isn't going to help. There has already been quite of few of those already anyways. >_>
And for the record, those were recently ranked maps and you mostly likely got pushed way beyond Rank #100 by now, rendering them pretty worthless in terms of PP. And getting Ranks 100 and above won't add very much pp, unless they are extremely extremely popular maps. I will admit, though, that there doesn't seem to be a clear explanation of why your pp dropped. Someone could have beaten one of your top pp giving scores, but that reason seems to getting kinda old and overused now imo lol. Furthermore, at your current level, not a huge amount of pp is required to lower your rank by 1500, and at your current level, pp is less accurate and fluctuates a bit more.
meh, just play and things will probably sort themselves out. I've gotten some ranks, and I'm disappointed sometimes in what I get, but I don't really give a crap anymore. My pp has basically plateaued now for the past week lol.
And for the record, those were recently ranked maps and you mostly likely got pushed way beyond Rank #100 by now, rendering them pretty worthless in terms of PP. And getting Ranks 100 and above won't add very much pp, unless they are extremely extremely popular maps. I will admit, though, that there doesn't seem to be a clear explanation of why your pp dropped. Someone could have beaten one of your top pp giving scores, but that reason seems to getting kinda old and overused now imo lol. Furthermore, at your current level, not a huge amount of pp is required to lower your rank by 1500, and at your current level, pp is less accurate and fluctuates a bit more.
meh, just play and things will probably sort themselves out. I've gotten some ranks, and I'm disappointed sometimes in what I get, but I don't really give a crap anymore. My pp has basically plateaued now for the past week lol.
I check map ranks and them was 111 and 138 . But the question is, where is my 1500 pp rank?
. But the question is, where is my 1500 pp rank?dunno, go rank maps and you can get it back \:D/
I can't say I like this system all that much. It's basically introducing genre favoring, mapper favoring, introduced Approval maps into the system when they were never intended to count officially to begin with/ don't have proper rulesets in place to balance the system, and makes grinding the same maps over and over again the preferred play method of osu!. Who can say they have fun turning an S rank into an SS? (Edit: I don't care if you find it fun, I'm skeptical that you find grinding fun. This is the least important part of this post, and the question was rhetorical.)
What's even more concerning is the number of songs that are worth next to no pp/ are beyond my skill level to even earn pp. I mean sure it sets the difference between my skillset and players above me, but it also means it's pointless to play songs I know I can never get a top 500 score in. And there are countless songs that grinding will get me a top score, but really that's no fun.
Does anyone find it annoying when you you get a top 50 score, that gives you 1 pp, and the next day, it says you lost a pp somewhere else? What was the point of that?
Another thing I find interesting is how much pp certain maps are worth over other maps, due to factors such as weighting and other things. I can get 100 pp to barely get into the top 500 of a marathon map, and basically that's worth the total pp of how many other top 50 scores of other maps. Does anyone find it horribly inaccurate and absurd that obtaining top 50 in a dozen plus other maps isn't worth the pp of just making the top 500 in certain maps?
If what others in this thread say is true about accuracy, how is it logical to only award pp if you rank in the top 500. Accuracy in a balanced and accurate system would still be worth something regardless of rank. The same goes for mods used. Why do these things have an effect on pp only if you're ranked a certain number. A SS with hidden in one song gets you no performance credit because you're ranked 552, while the same score in another slightly less played map gets you pp because you're ranked 494. How well you play a song is not related to how many people play the song better/worse than you in a song that is rated similarly in difficulty.
Let me elaborate on this.
Two songs, with exact difficulty stats (whatever that is based off of)
One is played more than the other.
Because of this, you will have to score more points/perform higher than you performed on the lesser played one to get into the top 500. So basically it rates two exact same performances differently based on how many people have played the song. But in reality same performance should equate to the same output, regardless if more people obtained that same output. A song's popularity is very anomalous and unpredictable and should not be a factor in determining how well a score performs.
The question I will end this long post is to what rate does popularity affect how much pp a song is worth and does it do a good job of balancing how much pp you receive compared to the level of performance required to obtain that pp.
What's even more concerning is the number of songs that are worth next to no pp/ are beyond my skill level to even earn pp. I mean sure it sets the difference between my skillset and players above me, but it also means it's pointless to play songs I know I can never get a top 500 score in. And there are countless songs that grinding will get me a top score, but really that's no fun.
Does anyone find it annoying when you you get a top 50 score, that gives you 1 pp, and the next day, it says you lost a pp somewhere else? What was the point of that?
Another thing I find interesting is how much pp certain maps are worth over other maps, due to factors such as weighting and other things. I can get 100 pp to barely get into the top 500 of a marathon map, and basically that's worth the total pp of how many other top 50 scores of other maps. Does anyone find it horribly inaccurate and absurd that obtaining top 50 in a dozen plus other maps isn't worth the pp of just making the top 500 in certain maps?
If what others in this thread say is true about accuracy, how is it logical to only award pp if you rank in the top 500. Accuracy in a balanced and accurate system would still be worth something regardless of rank. The same goes for mods used. Why do these things have an effect on pp only if you're ranked a certain number. A SS with hidden in one song gets you no performance credit because you're ranked 552, while the same score in another slightly less played map gets you pp because you're ranked 494. How well you play a song is not related to how many people play the song better/worse than you in a song that is rated similarly in difficulty.
Let me elaborate on this.
Two songs, with exact difficulty stats (whatever that is based off of)
One is played more than the other.
Because of this, you will have to score more points/perform higher than you performed on the lesser played one to get into the top 500. So basically it rates two exact same performances differently based on how many people have played the song. But in reality same performance should equate to the same output, regardless if more people obtained that same output. A song's popularity is very anomalous and unpredictable and should not be a factor in determining how well a score performs.
The question I will end this long post is to what rate does popularity affect how much pp a song is worth and does it do a good job of balancing how much pp you receive compared to the level of performance required to obtain that pp.
I can.TheVileOne wrote:
Who can say they have fun turning an S rank into an SS?
lolcubes wrote:
I can.TheVileOne wrote:
Who can say they have fun turning an S rank into an SS?
I have fun turning an S rank into an SS. I'm just not very good at it. 
edit: nevermind
still hard to get pp even if you SS insanes
still hard to get pp even if you SS insanes
i dont think you onderstand what we mean with amount of plays
we are talking about this
not this
we are talking about this
not this
ahh, fantastic, thank you.silmarilen wrote:
i dont think you onderstand what we mean with amount of plays
we are talking about this
not this
So you think a B rank #65 on The Big Black is worth less than SSing a random old [Hard] with mods?Valentiino wrote:
So you actually do expect to be rewarded for getting a rank #65 with a B and stuff?
Because that's what PP thinks.
He/She(?) obviously didn't refer to something like that.Aqo wrote:
So you think a B rank #65 on The Big Black is worth less than SSing a random old [Hard] with mods?Valentiino wrote:
So you actually do expect to be rewarded for getting a rank #65 with a B and stuff?
Because that's what PP thinks.
Could you guys PLEASE stop fighting but rather give constructive feedback so peppy has something to work with?
edit: Come to think of it, maybe we should rather close this thread now. Everything was said more than only once. peppy knows our opinions, and we can't do anything but wait for him to take action anyways.
All constructive feedback was already written down 10 times by different people and is still being ignored so what's the point.Zarerion wrote:
Could you guys PLEASE stop fighting but rather give constructive feedback so peppy has something to work with?
Since the system values only your top play per map and not your average play, farming maps helps you get better rating. Thus it's farmable. Instead of needing to farm many maps as with scores you need to farm the same one map, it's still farming.
Since the system values ranking, playing old maps gives better rating than new maps, because they usually have more total plays and yet less plays by people who were actually capable of making it into the top rankings.
Since the system values accuracy highly, but ignores retries, and does not value (enough) the difficulty of getting high accuracy on high OD/speed/circle amount, the most effective way to rate high is to farm the top easy maps (i.e. [Hard]s, or anything below-top-diff in a mapset) and get the highest reward with minimal effort.
Since the system relies on scores (for ranking), which are already known to be broken, it does not give correct input in any way at all. A play with 99.9% accuracy but a random sliderbreak in the middle of the map is worth less than a play with 95% accuracy and many miss in the start and end that just happened to manage to luckily get a large combo in the middle. The fact that only top #500 plays are taken into account also supports this issue. This is an arbitrary number that was selected to lessen the load on calculating PP, why couldn't you make it a dynamic number based on the amount of plays on a map? 1/250 amount of plays seems like a good amount. For some maps it would mean you'd need a rank even high than #500 but it'll be fair and manageable, while for others even a #1000 rank would qualify for calculation but with the amount of plays on them it'd be reasonable.
Seriously tho fix the system you would need to:
1. Stop taking the amount of plays on a map into account, because the amount of plays does not truly represent how contested it is, it only represents how popular the song is 90% of the time. If you're really intent on taking the amount of plays into account, at least give different weighting for each play. i.e. plays by people with higher rating would be worth more for the map's contestedness weighting over plays by people with low rating. (i.e. just because 9001 noobs plays a random [Hard] of a miku song and sucked on it doesn't mean a high rank on it should worth more than a high rank on a map that silvia/niko-/rucker all tried to rank on. a play from one of those guys should add 1000 times more "contentedness" weighting than most other average players)
2. Stop taking only the "best play" into account as long as this system still relies on map rankings that are based on the current score system. Your top score on a map does not truly represent your best play. Nor are most people usually able to reproduce their best play on a map. You should take/value every play on a map and not just the best recorded one. (i.e. bad plays should lose you pp. yes. deal with it. until this happens PP will only be a random farmable metric and not a true display of a player's average performance like it claims to be)
3. Give much higher value to OD. There is a sky of difference between getting high accuracy on anything below OD8, OD8, OD9, and OD10 (which happens with HR).
First of all, stop being so hostile in this thread because I will lock it.
Second, before you think something is obviously wrong, just think that you actually have no idea what is going on exactly. We all know what gets taken into account, but we don't know how much. This is a problem because you can't just come with "baww this map gives me 0 pp, while easy map x gives me 1 pp", because you obviously don't understand how the system works.
Get a #1 on a new map and hold it. You will see that you actually gain considerate amount of pp, and that pp will not vanish. Just check my top pp yield for example, the map was ranked when, a week ago? It's still there...(and I'm not even #1 lol)
Also, top score on a map does represent your best play, why do you think it doesn't? I don't follow.
Afaik, any decent acc (96+) with HR already yields you more pp, so I dunno how is this really a problem.
All of this has already been said anyway, let's stop repeating ourselves.
Second, before you think something is obviously wrong, just think that you actually have no idea what is going on exactly. We all know what gets taken into account, but we don't know how much. This is a problem because you can't just come with "baww this map gives me 0 pp, while easy map x gives me 1 pp", because you obviously don't understand how the system works.
No, this is wrong. Farming maps doesn't help you get better rating, but playing the same map over and over until you get best score you can does. You need to decide what to call farming here, because you said "farming maps" which is awfully ambiguous and not clearly defined.Aqo wrote:
Since the system values only your top play per map and not your average play, farming maps helps you get better rating. Thus it's farmable. Instead of needing to farm many maps as with scores you need to farm the same one map, it's still farming.
This is not always the case. You are generalizing too much. Please stop thinking on a case per case basis and start thinking on the grand scale.Aqo wrote:
Since the system values ranking, playing old maps gives better rating than new maps, because they usually have more total plays and yet less plays by people who were actually capable of making it into the top rankings.
Get a #1 on a new map and hold it. You will see that you actually gain considerate amount of pp, and that pp will not vanish. Just check my top pp yield for example, the map was ranked when, a week ago? It's still there...(and I'm not even #1 lol)
And tell me, why is this wrong? You didn't get a full combo if you sliderbroke, I really see no problem here. Just because I agree with this, and you disagree with this doesn't make it wrong.Aqo wrote:
Since the system relies on scores (for ranking), which are already known to be broken, it does not give correct input in any way at all. A play with 99.9% accuracy but a random sliderbreak in the middle of the map is worth less than a play with 95% accuracy and many miss in the start and end that just happened to manage to luckily get a large combo in the middle.
You see, you are talking 90% here. What about other 10%? You know, when you are making a system like this, you need to cover pretty much everything, 100%. I do agree that hards are valued a little too much at the moment, but think a little. Is getting a SS with HD DT on a hard easier than just getting SS on the insane? I would say no, very rare cases where it is. Since everyone is doing this with mods, this is what actually makes hards worth more than it probably should. If you ask me, the solution here is not to cut the number of plays, but to cut the number of mods giving extra pp. And again, since I have no idea what the values are, I have no idea how to change it. All I can say is "I think the mods are worth a little too much in my opinion".Aqo wrote:
1. Stop taking the amount of plays on a map into account, because the amount of plays does not truly represent how contested it is, it only represents how popular the song is 90% of the time. If you're really intent on taking the amount of plays into account, at least give different weighting for each play. i.e. plays by people with higher rating would be worth more for the map's contestedness weighting over plays by people with low rating. (i.e. just because 9001 noobs plays a random [Hard] of a miku song and sucked on it doesn't mean a high rank on it should worth more than a high rank on a map that silvia/niko-/rucker all tried to rank on. a play from one of those guys should add 1000 times more "contentedness" weighting than most other average players)
There are 2 problems with this. If you take all plays, then people will be afraid to play in general. Sometimes, even high level players, just go on a lulz spree and play like shit not giving a damn. This would destroy their pp completely. Another one is that it would collect so much data that pp system would be completely useless until you get to the daily update point, where it actually shows your current PP. Loss is calculated once a day, and if stuff changes so much, you have no idea where you are, since you only see the gains. Don't be unreasonable to demand that it updates in real time, because just think a little, it has to calculate every single play that happens any moment for everyone here. We are talking astronomical calculations here.Aqo wrote:
2. Stop taking only the "best play" into account as long as this system still relies on map rankings that are based on the current score system. Your top score on a map does not truly represent your best play. Nor are most people usually able to reproduce their best play on a map. You should take/value every play on a map and not just the best recorded one. (i.e. bad plays should lose you pp. yes. deal with it. until this happens PP will only be a random farmable metric and not a true display of a player's average performance like it claims to be)
Also, top score on a map does represent your best play, why do you think it doesn't? I don't follow.
OD doesn't affect pp at all btw. Not directly into the calculations atleast, it does make some stuff harder to SS, but be reasonable. There are times where maps really need lower OD because the timing derps all over the place or the song is completely awkward to play because you don't hear beats, etc.Aqo wrote:
3. Give much higher value to OD. There is a sky of difference between getting high accuracy on anything below OD8, OD8, OD9, and OD10 (which happens with HR).
Afaik, any decent acc (96+) with HR already yields you more pp, so I dunno how is this really a problem.
Why did you write your post then?Aqo wrote:
All constructive feedback was already written down 10 times by different people and is still being ignored so what's the point.
All of this has already been said anyway, let's stop repeating ourselves.
both examples you didnt get an fc, but one of them you had 1 sliderbreak in the middle and the other you had a ton of misses at the start/endlolcubes wrote:
And tell me, why is this wrong? You didn't get a full combo if you sliderbroke, I really see no problem here. Just because I agree with this, and you disagree with this doesn't make it wrong.Aqo wrote:
Since the system relies on scores (for ranking), which are already known to be broken, it does not give correct input in any way at all. A play with 99.9% accuracy but a random sliderbreak in the middle of the map is worth less than a play with 95% accuracy and many miss in the start and end that just happened to manage to luckily get a large combo in the middle.
My bad then because I didn't read correctly.
Shame on me.
Shame on me.
Nothing being said is based off of random assumptions. Players here tested this. Please go over this thread again. Players literally went ahead and tested farming [Hard]s and reported a significant increase in their PP.lolcubes wrote:
We all know what gets taken into account, but we don't know how much.
I also went over peppy's weighting list for PP (I will not publish it since he chose to hide it, but I have it for reference) and the issues show very clearly on it: the ways PP weighs plays does not go in anything that resembles a linear line.
i.e.
It's possible to gain very high PP for a relatively easy play
It's possible to gain very low PP for a very difficult play
Sorry if this sounds hostile, but it's really just stating the obvious: PP doesn't work.
PP claims to rate players by their performance: in reality, it doesn't. I've seen players with higher PP than myself perform much worse in MP and others with lower PP perform better. If it was just a marginal difference this would be negligible but this spans to the level of 1000+ pp difference being drastically inconsistent with performance which is absurd. Looking at a player's PP to judge that player's skill feels worthless, you're better off looking at his recent plays or just speccing him.
PP claims to be unfarmable: in reality, since PP gain is tied with rankings that are based on scores, and only takes into account your best one, it's VERY farmable. Players who like to retry the same map a lot get significantly more PP than players who prefer trying out many different maps, even if they have the same average performance.
It's great that peppy wishes to take this system far and make it the best thing ever, and I'm sure the entire community has a lot of trust in him because so far osu! (at least so I believe) has been changing for the better over time lately - which means peppy has what it takes to make PP better eventually as well. However right now PP doesn't function as intended or claimed, and the source for this lies in the bare foundations of the system. Until those are changed, no fine-tuning is going to fix it.
Didn't finish checking all of lolcubes' post yet, but just one specific thing that I can respond to quickly:
Depending on BPM/OD/map layout: YES. Big yes. Some Insanes are hard to even FC let alone SS, while Hards on the same mapset as them are ridiculously easy to SS with DT, yes. This is not even uncommon; far from it. The worst part of this is that the system doesn't take your retries into account, so if I know a certain hard with DT is within my ability range I can just farm it until that SS happens and the system will make it look like I'm good enough to get that SS on every try, meanwhile some Insanes are outside of many people's ability to even FC reliably or at all, and have an OD that makes gaining even a low accuracy after retries rather impressive compared to that infinite-retry lowdiff (this is especially bad for top-tier players who play with HR) and the system just neglects this.lolcubes wrote:
Is getting a SS with HD DT on a hard easier than just getting SS on the insane?
I actually disagree with you on the "ridiculously easy SS" part with you. Atleast while using double time.
It is farmable, but you have to be a pro already to farm it.I mean it's kind of like all the pros are in this bubble at the top and basically everyone else is stuck below a certain rank. It's very difficult to break that bubble, because it's basically taking pp from the players within the bubble. I don't think this was an intended side effect, but it's exactly how it is.
no, you don't. You can get top 1000, top 750, maybe even top 500, without being extremely pro by intelligently selecting high play count maps. Most of these high play count maps aren't even that hard to rank on (I'm talking about the Hard diffs. The Insane diffs are really quite hard to usually, but don't give much pp)
I could probably start testing ranking on these hards and seeing how far I can get, but I don't see any fun in that because usually those diffs are easy and not fun for me.
I would say pp has its big flaws, but still is more accurate than score ranking. pp isn't that bad imo.
I could probably start testing ranking on these hards and seeing how far I can get, but I don't see any fun in that because usually those diffs are easy and not fun for me.
I would say pp has its big flaws, but still is more accurate than score ranking. pp isn't that bad imo.
Pretty crazy. 15 pp for #1 on a 112 play map.
that I just lost
that I just lost
I have more motivation to play taiko because I can actually aim for higher ranks without SS/Hardrock/Hidden/DoubleTime mods in effect. Rank #88 in canada and #7101 worldwide is more motivating than a rank in the 20k+ range (especially when you had to SS a bunch of maps to get there).
plus taiko pp loves me
plus taiko pp loves me
This describes professionals in every activity. There's always a bubble of people who are the best, or better, and then a lot of people that can't cut in on them, because they're not as good. What would you prefer? The alternative is that the system should allow everyone to be a pro at any given time without having to take power away from the already existing pros. It would be chaotic, and unfortunately, it doesn't make sense for competition. It's no side effect, it's the core effect of a skill game in development.TheVileOne wrote:
It is farmable, but you have to be a pro already to farm it.I mean it's kind of like all the pros are in this bubble at the top and basically everyone else is stuck below a certain rank. It's very difficult to break that bubble, because it's basically taking pp from the players within the bubble. I don't think this was an intended side effect, but it's exactly how it is.
Futher, I can't stress enough how little sense it is to say that something is farming if only the best players can do it. It's as if the only things that don't qualify as farming are the things that only one man ever did right.
TheVileOne wrote:
It is farmable, but you have to be a pro already to farm it.I mean it's kind of like all the pros are in this bubble at the top and basically everyone else is stuck below a certain rank. It's very difficult to break that bubble, because it's basically taking pp from the players within the bubble. I don't think this was an intended side effect, but it's exactly how it is.
Basically, you're saying the following:
You can't be pro without being pro.
Zarerion wrote:
TheVileOne wrote:
It is farmable, but you have to be a pro already to farm it.I mean it's kind of like all the pros are in this bubble at the top and basically everyone else is stuck below a certain rank. It's very difficult to break that bubble, because it's basically taking pp from the players within the bubble. I don't think this was an intended side effect, but it's exactly how it is.
Basically, you're saying the following:
You can't be pro without being pro.
Or what he's trying to say is this "pros get high ranks which knock you out of top 500 which make you lose pp which makes this bubble you can't penetrate to get higher ranks because you keep losing them". Kinda confusing, lemme give an example. I was rank #403 ish on skillet - hero (insane) and in a week i'm now #609ish. I lose the rank because pros go and farm insanes and unless i can hidden double time that song, i'm just forced to lose the rank.
/hopeimadesense
If you consider pp system bad because people who are better than others get more pp than those because they rank higher, you didn't really understand the whole idea of it.iFlipTables wrote:
Or what he's trying to say is this "pros get high ranks which knock you out of top 500 which make you lose pp which makes this bubble you can't penetrate to get higher ranks because you keep losing them". Kinda confusing, lemme give an example. I was rank #403 ish on skillet - hero (insane) and in a week i'm now #609ish. I lose the rank because pros go and farm insanes and unless i can hidden double time that song, i'm just forced to lose the rank.
/hopeimadesense
-_- You made no more sense than the other guy! XD The whole idea of a ranking system is that better players knock worse players out of the top positions. Of course your score will be beaten by other scores! It doesn't mean there's something wrong, it just means you've got more goals to attain.iFlipTables wrote:
Or what he's trying to say is this "pros get high ranks which knock you out of top 500 which make you lose pp which makes this bubble you can't penetrate to get higher ranks because you keep losing them". Kinda confusing, lemme give an example. I was rank #403 ish on skillet - hero (insane) and in a week i'm now #609ish. I lose the rank because pros go and farm insanes and unless i can hidden double time that song, i'm just forced to lose the rank.
/hopeimadesense
played 6 straight hours today doing DT + HD hards DT HR normals DT hards HD SS hards and SS insanes (and a couple top 10 normals)
the insane SS had 360k+ plays = 0 pp (rank 119)
one of the DT hards I got rank 8 = 3 pp, the rest 0 pp
the DT + HD hard = 1 pp (only rank 50 something 98.70% acc)
normal DT HR = 0 pp (rank 6 and rank 10)
it's very frustrating lol orz
I'm getting better though, it's like there's a soft cap on skill or something.
It seems to get high pp you need it all, FC high acc high rank and bonus pp for mods
I dunno the system is not perfect but it still means more than the scoring system did.
Also look at Sette, this guy plays DT + HD hards for a living, most people say he doesn't deserve his rank I say bullshit lol, go try and DT HD SS some of the shit he has done. He is amazingly good. Lots of DT + HD SS hards are WAY harder than SS insanes (and lets be honest, when I say insane i'm not talking about shit only 5 people in the game can even FC.)
the insane SS had 360k+ plays = 0 pp (rank 119)
one of the DT hards I got rank 8 = 3 pp, the rest 0 pp
the DT + HD hard = 1 pp (only rank 50 something 98.70% acc)
normal DT HR = 0 pp (rank 6 and rank 10)
it's very frustrating lol orz
I'm getting better though, it's like there's a soft cap on skill or something.
It seems to get high pp you need it all, FC high acc high rank and bonus pp for mods
I dunno the system is not perfect but it still means more than the scoring system did.
Also look at Sette, this guy plays DT + HD hards for a living, most people say he doesn't deserve his rank I say bullshit lol, go try and DT HD SS some of the shit he has done. He is amazingly good. Lots of DT + HD SS hards are WAY harder than SS insanes (and lets be honest, when I say insane i'm not talking about shit only 5 people in the game can even FC.)
G0r wrote:
-_- You made no more sense than the other guy! XD The whole idea of a ranking system is that better players knock worse players out of the top positions. Of course your score will be beaten by other scores! It doesn't mean there's something wrong, it just means you've got more goals to attain.iFlipTables wrote:
Or what he's trying to say is this "pros get high ranks which knock you out of top 500 which make you lose pp which makes this bubble you can't penetrate to get higher ranks because you keep losing them". Kinda confusing, lemme give an example. I was rank #403 ish on skillet - hero (insane) and in a week i'm now #609ish. I lose the rank because pros go and farm insanes and unless i can hidden double time that song, i'm just forced to lose the rank.
/hopeimadesense
the point is that you can farm it.. using mods.. that's what i'm trying to say.. good players just throw double time on S it and beat everyone, that's the "bubble" he's referring to. I'm trying to explain what he's saying, i'm not agreeing with him.