There should not be a time limit to modding. Mod4mods are a good way to ensure that people commit to a mod and mods from that should be given the same substantial effort that one would put in if they chose to mod on their own accord.
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osu! mapping - "Speedranking"
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My opinion on mod4mod is to forbid people to say "the three first modposts will get their maps modded", but instead put a time limitation of two days or more, in order to get well constructed (and constructive) mods instead of just hitsounds/NCs mods, which are quickly made (so you can be in the first three posts) but mostly useless.
As for the speedranking, I don't really care about it as long as the map doesn't get unranked after. But the opposite point is annoying : getting mods when you don't have friends amongst the XAT or when you're not a well-known mapper is just a paiiiiiin. There's nothing that can be done for this, but I just wanted to tell it in public.
I kinda agree with Shirodaril here : the only solution would be to promote the "good behaviors" (constructive mods, mappers who respect modders and apply mods or if they don't explain why...) and to nuke the bad ones.
As for the speedranking, I don't really care about it as long as the map doesn't get unranked after. But the opposite point is annoying : getting mods when you don't have friends amongst the XAT or when you're not a well-known mapper is just a paiiiiiin. There's nothing that can be done for this, but I just wanted to tell it in public.
I kinda agree with Shirodaril here : the only solution would be to promote the "good behaviors" (constructive mods, mappers who respect modders and apply mods or if they don't explain why...) and to nuke the bad ones.
Bashing m4m/setting time limits on mods are only contemporary solutions, if at all. Improvement of the global modding quality can only come from within, not from the outside.
- XATs must not exploit their position to speedrank their maps. We all know what this is about.
- s4m queues make zero sense and must be gone. Strong action should be taken against these queues.
Again, comes down to more commitment from modders and particularly from the XATs.
- XATs must not exploit their position to speedrank their maps. We all know what this is about.
- s4m queues make zero sense and must be gone. Strong action should be taken against these queues.
Again, comes down to more commitment from modders and particularly from the XATs.
Can't agree with S4M very much. Despite the appearance due to BATs neglected those old bubbles, it's overused and against its original purpose.
M4M is the most stable way to earn a mod now. But about time limition to instead of slot limit, it's really just a joke because the req will be excess. Modding is a hard work and most modder can mod only several maps per week, espeically experienced modders -- they always have more reqs via online directly.
I agree with Ephemeral's view in some degree, add more MAT/BAT cannot resolve the problem, because more and more new mappers join this area, but modder is much less than that. I think the problem is we have not a good encourage system for modders: Kudosu is useless.... since mod can give SP, it's worse. Mappers could derive satification from ranking map, but pity modders can only earn some KDs which couldn't make their map have a high enough priority to MAT/BAT, and now even the only usage of kds might be replaced.
However, we cannot censure MAT/BAT neglect or ignore High sp maps, because they're always fill with various kinds of modreqs -- at least i suppose so. some times, a req from mutual is really hard to refused. It seems that, before a new ranking system established, add more MATs/BATs is the only way to relieve the problem.
M4M is the most stable way to earn a mod now. But about time limition to instead of slot limit, it's really just a joke because the req will be excess. Modding is a hard work and most modder can mod only several maps per week, espeically experienced modders -- they always have more reqs via online directly.
I agree with Ephemeral's view in some degree, add more MAT/BAT cannot resolve the problem, because more and more new mappers join this area, but modder is much less than that. I think the problem is we have not a good encourage system for modders: Kudosu is useless.... since mod can give SP, it's worse. Mappers could derive satification from ranking map, but pity modders can only earn some KDs which couldn't make their map have a high enough priority to MAT/BAT, and now even the only usage of kds might be replaced.
However, we cannot censure MAT/BAT neglect or ignore High sp maps, because they're always fill with various kinds of modreqs -- at least i suppose so. some times, a req from mutual is really hard to refused. It seems that, before a new ranking system established, add more MATs/BATs is the only way to relieve the problem.
Mercurial
Agree with this, the Kudosu system those days is completely useless due the new "I give a kudosu, I have a Star Point" system, but I don't know if the kudosu system will be removed in over time.Scorpiour wrote:
Kudosu is useless.... since mod can give SP, it's worse. Mappers could derive satification from ranking map, but pity modders can only earn some KDs which couldn't make their map have a high enough priority to MAT/BAT, and now even the only usage of kds might be replaced.
Yeah, but instead of "I'll mod the maps of the first three persons who mod my map", which encourages people to make quick and poor mods, why not doing something like "I'll mod maps from a selection of the most useful mods given for my map in a period of three days" ? You'll get better mods, and you'll be encouraged to make good mods too, while not being overwhelmed by requests.Scorpiour wrote:
M4M is the most stable way to earn a mod now. But about time limition to instead of slot limit, it's really just a joke because the req will be excess. Modding is a hard work and most modder can mod only several maps per week, espeically experienced modders -- they always have more reqs via online directly.
Just throwing out this idea, though. ^^;
I actually disagree, if you're a known mapper, then you can probably get all your SP from mod posts true, but if you're a new mapper, then most of your hopes of increasing the SP would come from your own kudosu.Mercurial wrote:
Agree with this, the Kudosu system those days is completely useless due the new "I give a kudosu, I have a Star Point" system, but I don't know if the kudosu system will be removed in over time.Scorpiour wrote:
Kudosu is useless.... since mod can give SP, it's worse. Mappers could derive satification from ranking map, but pity modders can only earn some KDs which couldn't make their map have a high enough priority to MAT/BAT, and now even the only usage of kds might be replaced.
However this is going off-topic, as you can see kudosu is mostly irrelevant when speedranking happens, all a mapper needs to get their map ranked is 12 SP and 2 members of the XAT, since modding by SP only happens 50% of the time, they can just go ahead and say this wasn't part of that 50%
you're right, KDs might be the only way for new mapper to improve their SP but the most scarce is experienced modder.... i can remember nearly all active modders' name, not because of my good memory, but due to there's no many.Sakura wrote:
I actually disagree, if you're a known mapper, then you can probably get all your SP from mod posts true, but if you're a new mapper, then most of your hopes of increasing the SP would come from your own kudosu.Mercurial wrote:
Agree with this, the Kudosu system those days is completely useless due the new "I give a kudosu, I have a Star Point" system, but I don't know if the kudosu system will be removed in over time.
But to new mappers, the best way for them to improve their mapping skill is experienced modders' mod, or guide. We mod for improve maps, not for high sp, so as soon as a new mapper grown up, the enthusiasm of modding would be lost because as you said, they needn't too many kds for themselves.
I think the kds ranking can support my opinion, a month before, the #50 is 452kds, now it's 453, and only a new man join top50 kds.
ahh...and about speedranking, i remain neutral. Good map deserve a rank no matter how long it's submitted because mapper may submit it after (s)he finished all diffs, for example, this map, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/46733, charles's excellent work, app in a week, but is one of the best map in 2012 i think.
As most people have agreed, we don't really mind speedranks as long as the maps in question really ARE flawless - the question now is, how do we ensure that a map gets enough competent people looking at it to avoid oversights?
The main issue with speedranking as a concept is that usually only a select few people get to look at/mod the map before it's ranked, so how about we add a requirement that maps with less than X kudos'd mod posts (or that have been submitted for less than X days, but I prefer the mod post variation) need an additional bubble for approval/ranking? That way the mapper either has to get a decent number of normal mods, or convince an additional XAT to consider the map flawless (which means an additional "high quality" mod).
Sure, people can still get a bunch of lazy random new-combo mods and stuff like that just to fulfill this requirement, but, as was already mentioned, the attitude of some mappers is the other huge problem and not as easy to adress.
I know that my suggestion has its flaws, but it would at least add an extra layer of quality assurance. Any thoughts on this?
The main issue with speedranking as a concept is that usually only a select few people get to look at/mod the map before it's ranked, so how about we add a requirement that maps with less than X kudos'd mod posts (or that have been submitted for less than X days, but I prefer the mod post variation) need an additional bubble for approval/ranking? That way the mapper either has to get a decent number of normal mods, or convince an additional XAT to consider the map flawless (which means an additional "high quality" mod).
Sure, people can still get a bunch of lazy random new-combo mods and stuff like that just to fulfill this requirement, but, as was already mentioned, the attitude of some mappers is the other huge problem and not as easy to adress.
I know that my suggestion has its flaws, but it would at least add an extra layer of quality assurance. Any thoughts on this?
I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.
From my perspective, it looks like sometimes people deliberately don't mod a map which has potential to be speedranked and then after it's ranked, they write their stuff. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as the map does get modded after all, it could be considered a dick move, where only fingers will be pointed at and a lot of rage would just come out of nowhere. Why people act like this, I have no idea.
I have seen cases where a map was ranked, then unranked, but since the map was over a month old, everyone was bitching how the unrank was unjustified and it didn't make things easier for anyone. In contrast, if a relatively ok map was ranked in a really short amount of time, but for one or the other reason a thing has slipped by which warrants an unrank, then suddenly it's the mapper's fault and all hate gets directed at the mapper. This only tells me that a lot of people are just bitter about this issue.
Don't get me wrong, I don't really support speedranking, but I am not against it if the map is really that ok.
I have seen cases where a map was ranked, then unranked, but since the map was over a month old, everyone was bitching how the unrank was unjustified and it didn't make things easier for anyone. In contrast, if a relatively ok map was ranked in a really short amount of time, but for one or the other reason a thing has slipped by which warrants an unrank, then suddenly it's the mapper's fault and all hate gets directed at the mapper. This only tells me that a lot of people are just bitter about this issue.
Don't get me wrong, I don't really support speedranking, but I am not against it if the map is really that ok.
Thoughts like this are okay, however they are very vague and without a solution. Best way to change something is when you aren't satisfied with something, provide an alternative which you find satisfying. Just keep in mind that you need to look at it objectively and with the bigger picture, in addition to it's potential flaws, etc.Frizz925 wrote:
I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.
Frizz925 wrote:
I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.
Prevent people from using kd on a map that isn't at least +12 ?
this.Shiro wrote:
Frizz925 wrote:
I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.
Prevent people from using kd on a map that isn't at least +12 ?
plus set a limit of kudosu that one person can spend on one map.
EDIT: I had an idea. maybe we should decrease the worth of a star if the same person already spent a star. like, 1 star is worth 1 star, but 2 stars are only worth 1,8 stars. the more stars the person spents on the map, the more the worth of each individual star fades, until they are almost worthless at some point. it still would be effective to spam maybe 3-4 stars, but not 20 or even more.
even if this doesn't get implemented as an actual counter, XATs still could give maps with many stars from few individuals a lower priority than maps with relatively few stars, but many individuals.
How does that help? You know maps can be pretty flawless at times. While it's rare, it's still possible and that way you only hurt them.
Lets get back to this line for a second, i want to hear peoples opinion on this.dkun wrote:
Essentially... Getting a map "speedranked" accelerates or even skips over the modding process, hindering the quality of ranked maps. It skips over what makes a map "polished", or what makes it "good". This is something that shouldn't be rushed, or avoided to any extent.
1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?
2. A map that has been in pending for 4 months, has 7 mods (4 normal, 3 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this one also go through the modding process and is ready for rank?
Which case is most eligible for rank?
Some people just like to treat maps more like a number (MY #199 RANKED BEATMAP!!11), rather than a sort of art, or even like a construction.
This is the way some people perceive/want mapping be
While some want to map like this, and take their time making it pretty and polished :
Quantity over Quality is what speedranking is. Although as Mr.Color said, sometimes, very rarely, is a map perfect enough to warrant it.
This is the way some people perceive/want mapping be
While some want to map like this, and take their time making it pretty and polished :
Quantity over Quality is what speedranking is. Although as Mr.Color said, sometimes, very rarely, is a map perfect enough to warrant it.
According to the currently most popular standard, the first would be called a speedrank and much sarcasm would ensue in the beatmap topic after it is ranked. The second would not be called a speedrank but a couple of people might take a swipe at its lack of mods. However, it would never receive as much attention as the first mapset did.Gabi wrote:
Lets get back to this line for a second, i want to hear peoples opinion on this.
1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?
2. A map that has been in pending for 4 months, has 7 mods (4 normal, 3 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this one also go through the modding process and is ready for rank?
Which case is most eligible for rank?
Gabi brings up a great point. We need to clarify what exactly we are dealing with. Is it the time window that we're upset with, or is it the lack of mods that we're upset with? Or is it a little bit of both? If we exclude mod quality from the big picture (that is, if we assume that all mods were of average-to-good quality), I think we need to be upset about the latter. If one is able to pull off the first example, we may hate it but it's technically not any different from a map with the same amount of mods in a much longer time period. If one is able to pull off the second example, however, any lack in map quality can directly be related to the lack of mods it had.
It is the number of mods the mapset has rececived, not the number of days the mapset has sat in pending, that is important when we are dealing with speedranks.
Having said the above, a lot of "speedranked" maps these days have only a few mods that aren't even average quality. A hundred below-par mods won't help the map more than several great quality mods will. This brings us back to my idea that the core problem lies in mod quality.
The problem with speedranks is that there isn't a big enough time window for the map to get modded properly, in the first scenario if the map can get many mods that fast then it could get more mods, in the 2nd scenario looks like a mapper's apparent lack of effort in getting mods for it's map, or modders didn't want to mod it, as there's been quite a big time window to get them.
Ironically, this got ranked in 2 days with around 11 mods: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23506 and no one ever complained about it.
Or do you prefer mappers to do stuff like what happened here? http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27378 (20 mods and around a week since revival)
Ironically, this got ranked in 2 days with around 11 mods: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23506 and no one ever complained about it.
Or do you prefer mappers to do stuff like what happened here? http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27378 (20 mods and around a week since revival)
Not trying to be subjective here, but this is what happened, for example, with the recently unranked map, which has also happened plenty of times with the same mapper. They get half-assed mods quickly and just call random MATs/BATs so the map gets ranked quickly. Yes, no matter how many mods there are in the thread, quality is barely looked into the mapset, using mods simply as a way to say "this map has been modded please rank it now" and not as a way to make your map better.Gabi wrote:
1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?
Topic Starter
Neither; but in today's case? Number 2 would be taken as the "better" solution, as time has passed. I'm essentially saying that more time should be given (but a limit shouldn't be placed, as that's counter productive).Gabi wrote:
Lets get back to this line for a second, i want to hear peoples opinion on this.dkun wrote:
Essentially... Getting a map "speedranked" accelerates or even skips over the modding process, hindering the quality of ranked maps. It skips over what makes a map "polished", or what makes it "good". This is something that shouldn't be rushed, or avoided to any extent.
1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?
2. A map that has been in pending for 4 months, has 7 mods (4 normal, 3 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this one also go through the modding process and is ready for rank?
Which case is most eligible for rank?
As KRZY stated... Change needs to come within the modding community and the XAT within itself to change the fundamentals of what drives ranked maps.
And with your #1 option, what BD just said above me is essentially true. Especially in the example I listed in OP.
Keep in mind I wrote this when there was a huge bottleneck of bubbled maps in pending (~5 pages) so this was more the reasoning as to why some maps ended up rotting for 4+ weeks and other maps were still getting ranked quickly. With the semi-recent return to the focus on higher priority maps, it has definitely helped a lot on the older maps front, as long as either the mapper or others cared enough to try and promote their map to the first page. There are still some old ones there, but I have a feeling there are far fewer now than there would have been had this change not been put in effect.aston wrote:
Further touching on Garven's points (quoting)The modder now has to explain why the map isn’t up to standards, and the mapper is stuck with a the decision of remapping, essentially wiping out all the suggestions of previous modders, or leaving it the same and hoping they will luck out with more lenient upper-level modders. If the remap does occur, this leaves responsibility in the hands of the modder who made the suggestion to help guide the mapper and let them grow. This is a significant investment of time and requires a lot of patience depending on how the mapper interprets the advice given. Of course this means less time modding other map sets, and is another reason for the bottleneck of beatmaps in the bubble list. What little time the moderators in management have to offer towards modding tends to be focused towards the easier-to-mod maps since they won’t require as much time to take care of.I'd like to point out where he says that management will offer modding towards easier-to-mod maps, pointing a lack of effort on the part of management. I'm not blaming them, please don't misunderstand.
Although having a better focus on improving beatmap moderation as a whole, these particular cases where the map gets through the ranking process in a fairly expedited manner definitely limits the possibility of receiving mods simply due to time restrictions, as previously pointed out.
To those complaining about the way the star system works right now: I fail to see how your arguments are a detriment. People gain kudosu by contributing towards making the maps made for this game better. If you've gained a lot, it is implied that you have a better understanding of what you're doing, so if you choose to support something, you can see the potential in that map. Restricting this feels pointlessly inhibiting. Even recently I get a kudosu star to a map set that I was asked to play test. It was still in WIP, but I felt that the mapper was heading in the right direction and so I wanted to give some support. 12+ only for kudosu stars? Limit the amount of a single person can contribute? Feels like you're trying to take away what little reward there is beyond warm fuzzies from modding. That's not going to help keep people modding, me thinks.
Lets look at a few things here.
@BD
@Dkun
Experienced mappers have this retarded problem when they make good maps and they ask a BAT to mod their map, the BAT says "get more mods". When they ask people to mod their map, the modders reply with "Your map is flawless, couldn't find anything wrong". What do these mappers do at this point? they are sort of stuck at option 2 (exclude the mod count) which i mentioned in my earlier post, and according to your view on it, these people will never be qualified to have their maps ranked.
I know mappers that have deliberately put silly mistakes on their maps just to get some serious "quality" mods on their maps in order for the BATs to see this and then further be able to get a mod from the BAT.
@BD
They get half-assed mods quickly and just call random MATs/BATs so the map gets ranked quickly.What is a "half-assed" mod, who is to blame for these "half-assed" mods?
@Dkun
Neither; but in today's case? Number 2 would be taken as the "better" solution, as time has passed. I'm essentially saying that more time should be given (but a limit shouldn't be placed, as that's counter productive).You say neither, but why? What is it that has to happen to this map before it can get ranked? Is it additional mods? Is it these special "quality mods"? Or is it just more time for other people to take a look at it and say "wow nice map, star!"?
Experienced mappers have this retarded problem when they make good maps and they ask a BAT to mod their map, the BAT says "get more mods". When they ask people to mod their map, the modders reply with "Your map is flawless, couldn't find anything wrong". What do these mappers do at this point? they are sort of stuck at option 2 (exclude the mod count) which i mentioned in my earlier post, and according to your view on it, these people will never be qualified to have their maps ranked.
I know mappers that have deliberately put silly mistakes on their maps just to get some serious "quality" mods on their maps in order for the BATs to see this and then further be able to get a mod from the BAT.
Normal people can't get 2 MAT and 2 BAT mods within 3 days. So it's speedranked.Gabi wrote:
Lets get back to this line for a second, i want to hear peoples opinion on this.dkun wrote:
Essentially... Getting a map "speedranked" accelerates or even skips over the modding process, hindering the quality of ranked maps. It skips over what makes a map "polished", or what makes it "good". This is something that shouldn't be rushed, or avoided to any extent.
1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?
2. A map that has been in pending for 4 months, has 7 mods (4 normal, 3 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this one also go through the modding process and is ready for rank?
Which case is most eligible for rank?
I'd be lucky if i get 1 MAT within the first month.
For example. A BAT makes a mod4mod queue, and the first three people to mod his map will get a mod back. People will make a rushed, quickly done mod (but still worth kudosu, at least in the current system) that doesn't even look to improve the quality of the map, just matters for getting an easy BAT mod.Gabi wrote:
@BDThey get half-assed mods quickly and just call random MATs/BATs so the map gets ranked quickly.What is a "half-assed" mod, who is to blame for these "half-assed" mods?
The ones to be blamed are, in this case, the BAT, who is just looking for a quick way to get his maps ranked, without caring about quality (doesn't care if mods are good to improve the map or not, just uses them as a way to get it ranked faster) and the modders, who are doing anything to get an easy BAT mod.
--
About what I said before, the second case in your post, Gabi, at least shows that the mapper is patient enough to wait for some time before getting the map ranked, and not rushing through everything. My first few maps have both of these cases - In some of them, I rushed through #mod to get a lot of mods, and bugging MATs/BATs to get my map ranked in 5 days; in other cases, it took me months to get a few mods, not being able to find many people, but still taking in consideration the mods that have been done, and the maps still got ranked. I personally find the second way much more comfortable for both the mapper and the community.
so much text.
im just here to say that i have no problem with speedranking if you have made a good map.
good map > quick rank > everybody happy, except bad mappers who whine about how other modders don't map their crappy map.
don't make crappy maps > ??? > get all thebitches mods
im just here to say that i have no problem with speedranking if you have made a good map.
good map > quick rank > everybody happy, except bad mappers who whine about how other modders don't map their crappy map.
don't make crappy maps > ??? > get all the
I'm not going to say that it's a good idea that I have in mind at the moment: mods still affect SP just like how it's currently working. However SP gained from mods is weighed from how long the map has been sitting in Pending. Example, there are two maps sitting in Pending, map A and B. Both maps have the same SP at the moment, let's just say +6 SP. However, map A has been sitting in Pending for 1 month while map B only for less than a week. From this point, map A will increase its SP by +2 from each mod it receives, compared to map B which only increases its SP by +1.lolcubes wrote:
Thoughts like this are okay, however they are very vague and without a solution. Best way to change something is when you aren't satisfied with something, provide an alternative which you find satisfying. Just keep in mind that you need to look at it objectively and with the bigger picture, in addition to it's potential flaws, etc.Frizz925 wrote:
I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.
Now let's make a case here. Both map A and B received 6 mods at the same time. Which one will have the higher SP? The answer is map A. From 6 mods that map A received, it increases its SP by 2 x 6 = +12 and that makes map A now has +18 SP. How about map B? From 6 mods that map B, it only increases its SP by 1 x 6 = +6 and that makes map B now has +12 SP. From this point, map A will have XATs attention in no time since it now has higher SP than map B does.
This is just my take in avoiding further speedrank from ever happening again. I haven't thought further about this idea so I'll be glad if anyone would add some thoughts to this. Just my $0.02.
maybe in a perfect worldGladiOol wrote:
im just here to say that i have no problem with speedranking if you have made a good map.
good map > quick rank > everybody happy, except bad mappers who whine about how other modders don't map their crappy map.
actual system
bad map > find a way for people to mod it easily (usually mod4mods) > still gets ranked
good map > no one is interested in anything mapper can offer back (e.g. mapper isn't a very good modder, or doesn't have time to open mod queues) > map gets ignored
I think some people who complain about speedranked maps are complaining at how it can be rather difficult for newer or less popular mappers to get their maps modded at all while more renowned mappers can pretty much get their map modded by just waiting.
The first people would probably take quite some time to get fully modded and ranked while the latter would get modded quickly and speedranked.
imo speedranking isn't that much of a problem, if a map gets modded quickly and is ~perfected~ quickly, so be it, let it be ranked, I don't think it should have to wait three months being rankable and showing no progress just because it'd be speedranked.
Perhaps I'm blabbering a bit, but the point is that I don't really see how speedranking would be a problem, the only improvement that (I think) should be made here is that it'd be easier for newer mappers to get modded/ranked, but then again I don't think that should be to much of a problem as most it should probably get modded if they really but an effort to it. (although perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps it's hard for newer mappers to get modded no matter what)
The first people would probably take quite some time to get fully modded and ranked while the latter would get modded quickly and speedranked.
imo speedranking isn't that much of a problem, if a map gets modded quickly and is ~perfected~ quickly, so be it, let it be ranked, I don't think it should have to wait three months being rankable and showing no progress just because it'd be speedranked.
Perhaps I'm blabbering a bit, but the point is that I don't really see how speedranking would be a problem, the only improvement that (I think) should be made here is that it'd be easier for newer mappers to get modded/ranked, but then again I don't think that should be to much of a problem as most it should probably get modded if they really but an effort to it. (although perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps it's hard for newer mappers to get modded no matter what)
The problem with speedranked maps is that it gives the said maps a really small window for improvements and fixes from mods. If you take a closer look, most of the maps that got unranked lately are mostly speedranked maps. Okay, you may think that one map looks perfect and is ready for rank. However, not everyone thinks that it is perfect and ready for rank, hence why the said map should sit longer in Pending, waiting for further mods. Just take a look at Andrea's latest ranked map. Seeing unranks from my perspective as a player, unranks piss off the players a lot. Imagine having your score wiped off the scoreboard each time the map you just played got unranked. This is why both speedranks and unranks should be avoided at all cost.
So if it's a BATs fault and everyone knows it, why doesn't anyone take a stand against it in the BAT? You say that this certain BAT doesn't care to improve the quality of their maps, well it doesn't seem like anyone else in the BAT cares about improving quality of the actual BAT. To me it feels like there is absolutely no discipline at all in the BAT. There are so many discussions, but in the end no one really cares or does anything about it.Blue Dragon wrote:
For example. A BAT makes a mod4mod queue, and the first three people to mod his map will get a mod back. People will make a rushed, quickly done mod (but still worth kudosu, at least in the current system) that doesn't even look to improve the quality of the map, just matters for getting an easy BAT mod.
The ones to be blamed are, in this case, the BAT, who is just looking for a quick way to get his maps ranked, without caring about quality (doesn't care if mods are good to improve the map or not, just uses them as a way to get it ranked faster) and the modders, who are doing anything to get an easy BAT mod.
Also lets face it, it's mostly BAT/MAT's (And people who knows them really well) that get their maps speed ranked, because most normal members don't have much to offer in a normal mod4mod.
and that's where the SP system is doing wrong. I have been against the entire system since the start, because you now have to actively search for mods. People who are more introvert, not willing to actively search or whatever are now simply screwed. The ones with the biggest mouth and willing to do anything for their bad map to get ranked, will get it ranked. The ones with the most awesome maps but who don't get mods, are fucked. This seems a bit silly to me. You shouldn't judge a map by it's mapper, but by the map itself.Blue Dragon wrote:
maybe in a perfect worldGladiOol wrote:
im just here to say that i have no problem with speedranking if you have made a good map.
good map > quick rank > everybody happy, except bad mappers who whine about how other modders don't map their crappy map.
actual system
bad map > find a way for people to mod it easily (usually mod4mods) > still gets ranked
good map > no one is interested in anything mapper can offer back (e.g. mapper isn't a very good modder, or doesn't have time to open mod queues) > map gets ignored
Judge a map by the talent of the mapper, not the ambition he/she has to get it ranked.
those statements hold so much truth. but sadly, it's a perfect world idea, and it won't come to this, since people always will look at the mappers name, the friends that the mapper has, heck, even gender, age, looks or just plain osu!-skill.GladiOol wrote:
You shouldn't judge a map by it's mapper, but by the map itself.
Judge a map by the talent of the mapper, not the ambition he/she has to get it ranked.
it is really up to the people to change their mindset, because there is really no reason to aim for a speedrank, for example I will remember maps like Aha? while I forget maps like... well, like 90% of the stuff that is mapped today. speedranking achieves nothing, while mapping truly awesome and creative stuff is what makes a mapper a legend even past his or her active career (mainexamples being Larto or Krisom).
Topic Starter
I say neither because the overall quality of mods is dropping. Please, don't get me wrong when I say this, because I fully do know the situation you listed, with experienced mappers having the problem of making good maps. This is the bottleneck of the issue, and this is the "flawless" part of the arguement that others have stated here.Gabi wrote:
@DkunNeither; but in today's case? Number 2 would be taken as the "better" solution, as time has passed. I'm essentially saying that more time should be given (but a limit shouldn't be placed, as that's counter productive).You say neither, but why? What is it that has to happen to this map before it can get ranked? Is it additional mods? Is it these special "quality mods"? Or is it just more time for other people to take a look at it and say "wow nice map, star!"?
Experienced mappers have this retarded problem when they make good maps and they ask a BAT to mod their map, the BAT says "get more mods". When they ask people to mod their map, the modders reply with "Your map is flawless, couldn't find anything wrong". What do these mappers do at this point? they are sort of stuck at option 2 (exclude the mod count) which i mentioned in my earlier post, and according to your view on it, these people will never be qualified to have their maps ranked.
I know mappers that have deliberately put silly mistakes on their maps just to get some serious "quality" mods on their maps in order for the BATs to see this and then further be able to get a mod from the BAT.
But what my point emphasizes is that quality > quantity in terms of ranking, no? As I have said time and time again, quality shouldn't be hindered for the sake of quantity, which some XAT's do ultimately sacrifice. This thread is the discussion of what we do at this point, though.
The entire reason of this post explains this, and how the problem isn't just this. Of course, I have spoken my mind in public channels about starting with removing said people, but others don't seem to share my same mindset.Gabi wrote:
So if it's a BATs fault and everyone knows it, why doesn't anyone take a stand against it in the BAT? You say that this certain BAT doesn't care to improve the quality of their maps, well it doesn't seem like anyone else in the BAT cares about improving quality of the actual BAT. To me it feels like there is absolutely no discipline at all in the BAT. There are so many discussions, but in the end no one really cares or does anything about it.Blue Dragon wrote:
For example. A BAT makes a mod4mod queue, and the first three people to mod his map will get a mod back. People will make a rushed, quickly done mod (but still worth kudosu, at least in the current system) that doesn't even look to improve the quality of the map, just matters for getting an easy BAT mod.
The ones to be blamed are, in this case, the BAT, who is just looking for a quick way to get his maps ranked, without caring about quality (doesn't care if mods are good to improve the map or not, just uses them as a way to get it ranked faster) and the modders, who are doing anything to get an easy BAT mod.
Also lets face it, it's mostly BAT/MAT's (And people who knows them really well) that get their maps speed ranked, because most normal members don't have much to offer in a normal mod4mod.
Today's community:
Mappers don't really want their maps modded, because they think that their map is already good enough. The community is made up of many ignorant, stubborn, and egotistic people that only want to make satisfactory maps, and not maps that can't get any better. These people don't map for the community; they map for themselves - a number on their profile representing the number of maps they have uploaded under their account on the server. You'd hope that people would learn that this isn't acceptable, but as it stands, not enough people care about this issue (Staff and non-staff alike). Once a mapper has a few maps ranked in this fashion, he/she will continue to think that it is okay the keep ranking maps this way. Whether "this fashion" may refer to speed ranking, bad mapping technique that a mapper claims to be his/her "style", etc., it is nonetheless a problem.
However, you can't really blame the mapper. The staff and moderation teams are the ones in greater power, so of course we take a lot of the blame. But who are we to talk about speed ranking (or any other problems, for that matter) when we each have a voice in the community ourselves? See a bad bubbled map? Mod it and stop it from being ranked. Notice a map that can be made better? Post your suggestions. This is what you can do to take a map through the modding process, whether it be a week or a year (though, ranking decisions are internal so the BAT clearly has a problem on their own, but I'm not too sure that's really up for public discussion).
Mappers don't really want their maps modded, because they think that their map is already good enough. The community is made up of many ignorant, stubborn, and egotistic people that only want to make satisfactory maps, and not maps that can't get any better. These people don't map for the community; they map for themselves - a number on their profile representing the number of maps they have uploaded under their account on the server. You'd hope that people would learn that this isn't acceptable, but as it stands, not enough people care about this issue (Staff and non-staff alike). Once a mapper has a few maps ranked in this fashion, he/she will continue to think that it is okay the keep ranking maps this way. Whether "this fashion" may refer to speed ranking, bad mapping technique that a mapper claims to be his/her "style", etc., it is nonetheless a problem.
However, you can't really blame the mapper. The staff and moderation teams are the ones in greater power, so of course we take a lot of the blame. But who are we to talk about speed ranking (or any other problems, for that matter) when we each have a voice in the community ourselves? See a bad bubbled map? Mod it and stop it from being ranked. Notice a map that can be made better? Post your suggestions. This is what you can do to take a map through the modding process, whether it be a week or a year (though, ranking decisions are internal so the BAT clearly has a problem on their own, but I'm not too sure that's really up for public discussion).
In essence, the ability to promote a map is a key asset to anybody who wants to get anywhere. It's effectively enterprise. If a mapper cares enough getting a map ranked, then they will do whatever they can in order to prove that they're worth even a modicum of attention. This could be as simple as talking in chats regularly. If the only ones who complain about speedranks are those who make crap maps, then those who complain about not getting any attention have crap social skills.
The fact is that, given the size of this community, it is extraordinarily hard for a map to stand out on its own merits. A map generally needs somebody to promote it and the mapper needs to be approachable.
In order to create the best damn map possible, there should be a balance between the mapper's openness to suggestions and willingness to change; a modder's willingness to make a thorough and sensible mod, while also being able to handle their suggestions being rejected; and the support of a community who can view a map objectively and in line with the rules and guidelines.
The fact is that, given the size of this community, it is extraordinarily hard for a map to stand out on its own merits. A map generally needs somebody to promote it and the mapper needs to be approachable.
In order to create the best damn map possible, there should be a balance between the mapper's openness to suggestions and willingness to change; a modder's willingness to make a thorough and sensible mod, while also being able to handle their suggestions being rejected; and the support of a community who can view a map objectively and in line with the rules and guidelines.
Topic Starter
On the flip side, you can really blame the mapper. As I stated earlier in this thread...those wrote:
However, you can't really blame the mapper. The staff and moderation teams are the ones in greater power, so of course we take a lot of the blame. But who are we to talk about speed ranking (or any other problems, for that matter) when we each have a voice in the community ourselves? See a bad bubbled map? Mod it and stop it from being ranked. Notice a map that can be made better? Post your suggestions. This is what you can do to take a map through the modding process, whether it be a week or a year (though, ranking decisions are internal so the BAT clearly has a problem on their own, but I'm not too sure that's really up for public discussion).
Scenario: I go to sleep with a map that's still not bubbled. I wake up with it being ranked. What happens now?
Scenario: I get lunch while a map is bubbled, said bubble is now ranked. Well?
See the time frame things like this is happening? It starts from within the team to fix itself before looking to the modders. Whether you recognize it exists or not is up to you.
The problem, then, as you perceive, is the mapper pressing on certain XAT members to bubble and rank the map, which is actually an internal problem, since the BAT has the final decision on map ranking.dkun wrote:
On the flip side, you can really blame the mapper.
Topic Starter
(which I have stated in the OP, and which mm201 has verified somewhere in the pages shortly after.)those wrote:
The problem, then, as you perceive, is the mapper pressing on certain XAT members to bubble and rank the map, which is actually an internal problem, since the BAT has the final decision on map ranking.dkun wrote:
On the flip side, you can really blame the mapper.
But at the point if this problem ever does get fixed, the problem then soon lies within the community to increase the overall quality of mod posts.
fwiw, what counts as "kudosu" should be re-written.
Well this is bullshit \:D/.D33d wrote:
In essence, the ability to promote a map is a key asset to anybody who wants to get anywhere. It's effectively enterprise. If a mapper cares enough getting a map ranked, then they will do whatever they can in order to prove that they're worth even a modicum of attention. This could be as simple as talking in chats regularly. If the only ones who complain about speedranks are those who make crap maps, then those who complain about not getting any attention have crap social skills.
Some people simply are more introverted than others, you can't expect everyone to be the same. What you are saying here is that a bad mapper has more right to get his map ranked than a good mapper just because he has better ''social skillzzz''. That makes absolutely no sense at all.
No, D33d is not saying social skills gives you a privilege over others. He's simply saying that socializing (and knowing key people) is an effective way to get a map into the process of ranking.
yes, and this is bullshit. /o/ it means ambition > talent. while it should be talent > ambition.kriers wrote:
No, D33d is not saying social skills gives you a privilege over others. He's simply saying that socializing and knowing key people is an effective way to get a map into the process of ranking.
Indeed. In my opinion, mapping is like drawing. You can have perfect knowledge about how to draw a face, with the perfect proportions and everything, but maybe you don't know how to make that face look "expresive", "human" or you can't make the face transmit something (an "emotion") to the viewer. Drawing with the perfect proportions and stuff maybe would be considered as "flawless", and this is just like knowing the rankable stuff and applying it! But, I don't like to see a boring face just like others in a drawing, I want it to be special, to have special effects, to have emotions and feelings. This is the part of mapping that a lot of mappers seem to be missing over time - and this is why I found mapping comparable to drawing. Oh and also, it's way easier to mass-produce tons of "flawless" maps that follow the ranking criteria.. than trying to make something special. That's why I'll quote this again:Gcode wrote:
Some people just like to treat maps more like a number (MY #199 RANKED BEATMAP!!11), rather than a sort of art, or even like a construction.
This is the way some people perceive/want mapping be
While some want to map like this, and take their time making it pretty and polished :
Quantity over Quality is what speedranking is. Although as Mr.Color said, sometimes, very rarely, is a map perfect enough to warrant it.
Gcode wrote:
Quantity over Quality is what speedranking is. Although as Mr.Color said, sometimes, very rarely, is a map perfect enough to warrant it.
Even in the real world, ambition > talent.GladiOol wrote:
yes, and this is bullshit. /o/ it means ambition > talent. while it should be talent > ambition.kriers wrote:
No, D33d is not saying social skills gives you a privilege over others. He's simply saying that socializing and knowing key people is an effective way to get a map into the process of ranking.
I hope you don't expect us to go out and DIG for people with talent. They have to talk to people and make themselves known, or else nobody will know how awesome they might be.
those wrote:
14:52 <awpkun> don't strive for a ranked map, strive for the best damn map possible
This quote makes me wanna slap somebody every time because it has no relation to this context.those wrote:
14:52 <awpkun> don't strive for a ranked map, strive for the best damn map possible
Will you guys stop posting this?
The world is stupid yes. And no, you shouldn't dig. Before the SP system there was absolutely no system. This worked better than the SP system. I could just upload my map and with bumping or sometimes asking around I could get mods. Now I have to mod4mod, make guest diffs and suck 16 dicks to get 8 SP and a bubble and then to never be able to get a BAT and rank my map because they all hate me.kriers wrote:
Even in the real world, ambition > talent.GladiOol wrote:
yes, and this is bullshit. /o/ it means ambition > talent. while it should be talent > ambition.
I hope you don't expect us to go out and DIG for people with talent. They have to talk to people and make themselves known, or else nobody will know how awesome they might be.
You simply have to do TOO much to get a map ranked now.
If people hadn't needed to do all this and follow the current system, there would be an overflow of mappers getting their maps ranked compared to now. The process of ranking could also be damaged and we would likely get cases of extreme speed-ranking and bad beatmaps.GladiOol wrote:
The world is stupid yes. And no, you shouldn't dig. Before the SP system there was absolutely no system. This worked better than the SP system. I could just upload my map and with bumping or sometimes asking around I could get mods. Now I have to mod4mod, make guest diffs and suck 16 dicks to get 8 SP and a bubble and then to never be able to get a BAT and rank my map because they all hate me.
You simply have to do TOO much to get a map ranked now.
Just look at the majority of old maps being of lower quality. At least the worst map being ranked today is better than the worst map being ranked in the past.
I agree on the world being stupid, though.
The problem about the recent speedrank cases is not the quality of the map itself (ok, actually one of them was un- and reranked), but it's the way of sneaking its way to the rank while other pending maps with more SP are at least on a similar quality level. Maps are supposed to be modded and ranked based on the SP, in a community of this scale some sort of system is necessary.
Apparently we cannot do priority modding 100% of the time, but seeing this sort of exception happen to the same people all the time cannot be considered as coincidence. While a "speedrank" of one map doesn't really hurt anyone and is rather a matter of principle, it's different when these cases accumulate. A system like this can't work if people always get weak to their friends' mod requests or think their friends' map is ready for ranking and they have to take actions.
Once again: The quality isn't the main problem here! Good maps should always be ranked as soon as possible, but remember that we have a public queue aka priority system. Taking the backdoor to VIP area is not fair.
Apparently we cannot do priority modding 100% of the time, but seeing this sort of exception happen to the same people all the time cannot be considered as coincidence. While a "speedrank" of one map doesn't really hurt anyone and is rather a matter of principle, it's different when these cases accumulate. A system like this can't work if people always get weak to their friends' mod requests or think their friends' map is ready for ranking and they have to take actions.
Once again: The quality isn't the main problem here! Good maps should always be ranked as soon as possible, but remember that we have a public queue aka priority system. Taking the backdoor to VIP area is not fair.
Exactly, it seems that the more ranked maps you get, the faster is the ranking proccess on your next maps. This makes VERY hard to get your first map ranked, which is very unatractive for begginner mappers, and I think we will end up having each time less new mappers.Dangaard wrote:
Taking the backdoor to VIP area is not fair.
If I may diverge a bit off the point of the topic, it's only natural that such a developed community requires a lot more effort in order to stand out. One cannot expected to be waited on, hand and foot, just because a select few get away with murder. I find SP to be fairly irrelevant anyway, because a popular mapper's maps are going to be whored out enough that they'll get attention that defies their priority.GladiOol wrote:
The world is stupid yes. And no, you shouldn't dig. Before the SP system there was absolutely no system. This worked better than the SP system. I could just upload my map and with bumping or sometimes asking around I could get mods. Now I have to mod4mod, make guest diffs and suck 16 dicks to get 8 SP and a bubble and then to never be able to get a BAT and rank my map because they all hate me.kriers wrote:
Even in the real world, ambition > talent.
I hope you don't expect us to go out and DIG for people with talent. They have to talk to people and make themselves known, or else nobody will know how awesome they might be.
You simply have to do TOO much to get a map ranked now.
Furthermore, if nobody wants to touch your maps because of your personality, then that is your fault and you shouldn't wind up the people who could help you. Don't whine about it, nor about introversion. This is a community and one is expected to integrate as well as they can.
Agreed, but that is realistic. I won't say those names but u know who:>Dangaard wrote:
The problem about the recent speedrank cases is not the quality of the map itself (ok, actually one of them was un- and reranked), but it's the way of sneaking its way to the rank while other pending maps with more SP are at least on a similar quality level. Maps are supposed to be modded and ranked based on the SP, in a community of this scale some sort of system is necessary.
Apparently we cannot do priority modding 100% of the time, but seeing this sort of exception happen to the same people all the time cannot be considered as coincidence. While a "speedrank" of one map doesn't really hurt anyone and is rather a matter of principle, it's different when these cases accumulate. A system like this can't work if people always get weak to their friends' mod requests or think their friends' map is ready for ranking and they have to take actions.
Once again: The quality isn't the main problem here! Good maps should always be ranked as soon as possible, but remember that we have a public queue aka priority system. Taking the backdoor to VIP area is not fair.
from my perspective, one of the reason is there's no any effective supervise to XAT, they accept reqs like all other modders , and bubble/rank maps depend on themselves. Mappers cannot argue that "why u accept others' req but not mine?" or "why such a ugly map could be bubbled/ranked but not that flawless one"...yes, there's no any evidence. "i am busy" and "i like the map" is always the most powerful reason, and sometime, also could be the most powerful excuse.
somebody may say that all modder are volunteers, so nobody can force them to mod. Yes, that's right, but, i was a volunteers in other place, and i can say that, no any volunteer is allowed to give his/her responsibility up when they handle a relative power. A power without equivalent responsibility and surveillance would cause corrupt and abuse only because not everyone is saint. --- not from me, but from history.
Look at the circumstance now, mappers/modders don't know how new MATs/BATs promoted, no election, no survey, just an announcement. The gaps between mapper and XATs is growing.
I think its a problem in itself that people map things just to get them ranked? Am I wrong?
There are people who don't map things just to get them ranked, but their map just don't get ranked.Nyquill wrote:
I think its a problem in itself that people map things just to get them ranked? Am I wrong?
I think it is that people make friends | 搞基 to rank their maps, and they take priority so real mappers don't rank.
Yes. But for the time being, there are still people who put community first.Nyquill wrote:
I think its a problem in itself that people map things just to get them ranked? Am I wrong?
Nice choice of words. iLold (for those who cannot read, this literally translates to 'engage in homosexual acts').[CSGA]Ar3sgice wrote:
搞基
community is a part of ranking i think that's should be okay but anything break the ballance would make things worse.
and about 搅基……that word have no gender limit...so girl could 搅基 with a boy =v= and also point to those spirits level ~
and about 搅基……that word have no gender limit...so girl could 搅基 with a boy =v= and also point to those spirits level ~
I really hope someone who concern the issue the most could leave some of their time and go think how to make good maps
It's ironical that those most outstanding mappers never mind speedrank as much as those who pay their 90% time on "discussing" important things, researching and explaining every words of sentences from some powerful people who have been inactive on mapping for a long time
It's ironical that those most outstanding mappers never mind speedrank as much as those who pay their 90% time on "discussing" important things, researching and explaining every words of sentences from some powerful people who have been inactive on mapping for a long time
Fundamentally, it's a matter of principle. If a map is ranked within a week, then it's invariably going to receive a less diverse array of opinions and it isn't really fair that potential modders aren't given the time to do so. Furthermore, if there are controversial issues with a map, then it's probably better to wait for it to have more input. I think that there was an Andrea map, which used AR9 and several people took issue with it. However, it was pushed out of the door before people could complain about it (I think?).LKs wrote:
I really hope someone who concern the issue the most could leave some of their time and go think how to make good maps
It's ironical that those most outstanding mappers never mind speedrank as much as those who pay their 90% time on "discussing" important things, researching and explaining every words of sentences from some powerful people who have been inactive on mapping for a long time
There's no use in pointing fingers and accusing those who want to discuss these things as being petulant and that they are merely lashing out. On the contrary, some of us actually want to discuss issues and make improvements within this place. Have you also considered that some of us have already put in a lot of effort into maps and are simply waiting patiently for them to be checked? This isn't a cry for attention--I'm just saying that discussion such as this should not detract from one's mapping.
Topic Starter
oh the ironyLKs wrote:
I really hope someone who concern the issue the most could leave some of their time and go think how to make good maps
It's ironical that those most outstanding mappers never mind speedrank as much as those who pay their 90% time on "discussing" important things, researching and explaining every words of sentences from some powerful people who have been inactive on mapping for a long time
First of all, try to understand i'm not trying to make drama or something like that, but it's just what i'm thinking of this.
If (for various reason) you don't like what i wrote feel free to insult me in pm, thank you.
This is just my opinion
So i'm going straight to the point
To my eyes, i don't have any kind of problem with speedrank, because if this happened sometimes just with random people, well good, lucky boy/girl, enjoy your map ranked and that's all. (and in case there's was an unrank well fuck, nevermind, try to be more careful next time)
BUT there's someone who still abusing of this (for 2 years) i don't care if he's the one who pray others BATs/MATs to get ranked his maps or it's just because he's so popular or something like that (generally 85% of his maps are ranked in 1/2 weeks? right?).
If those cases never happened, probably this topic/bad mood would have never started
And: if you're trying to say "he's the best BAT of the year/ he's the best BAT who works in this team (a lot of maps ranked)"
whoa i never received something for doing my "job" here.
Probably I've only receive the gratitude/thankfullness of users, and that's the best thing I can have. (Of course someone will hate me but i don't care)
EDIT:
I'm sure there are some similiar cases probably, but right now i'm just putting the "most important".
If (for various reason) you don't like what i wrote feel free to insult me in pm, thank you.
This is just my opinion
So i'm going straight to the point
To my eyes, i don't have any kind of problem with speedrank, because if this happened sometimes just with random people, well good, lucky boy/girl, enjoy your map ranked and that's all. (and in case there's was an unrank well fuck, nevermind, try to be more careful next time)
BUT there's someone who still abusing of this (for 2 years) i don't care if he's the one who pray others BATs/MATs to get ranked his maps or it's just because he's so popular or something like that (generally 85% of his maps are ranked in 1/2 weeks? right?).
If those cases never happened, probably this topic/bad mood would have never started
And: if you're trying to say "he's the best BAT of the year/ he's the best BAT who works in this team (a lot of maps ranked)"
whoa i never received something for doing my "job" here.
Probably I've only receive the gratitude/thankfullness of users, and that's the best thing I can have. (Of course someone will hate me but i don't care)
EDIT:
I'm sure there are some similiar cases probably, but right now i'm just putting the "most important".
Topic Starter
I don't mean to point fingers myself, but it doesn't help if we're oblivious to the obvious. I stated this then, and I'll state this again. An effective measure to start to combat the issue is to remove the most prominent issue at hand, is it not?Inamaru wrote:
First of all, try to understand i'm not trying to make drama or something like that, but it's just what i'm thinking of this.
If (for various reason) you don't like what i wrote feel free to insult me in pm, thank you.
This is just my opinion
So i'm going straight to the point
To my eyes, i don't have any kind of problem with speedrank, because if this happened sometimes just with random people, well good, lucky boy/girl, enjoy your map ranked and that's all. (and in case there's was an unrank well fuck, nevermind, try to be more careful next time)
BUT there's someone who still abusing of this (for 2 years) i don't care if he's the one who pray others BATs/MATs to get ranked his maps or it's just because he's so popular or something like that (generally 85% of his maps are ranked in 1/2 weeks? right?).
If those cases never happened, probably this topic/bad mood would have never started
And: if you're trying to say "he's the best BAT of the year/ he's the best BAT who works in this team (a lot of maps ranked)"
whoa i never received something for doing my "job" here.
Probably I've only receive the gratitude/thankfullness of users, and that's the best thing I can have. (Of course someone will hate me but i don't care)
EDIT:
I'm sure there are some similiar cases probably, but right now i'm just putting the "most important".
But what has me more curious is what these individuals have to say about what they do. I stepped up to the plate, so shouldn't they? There's always two sides to a story.
Honestly I don't care whos map will be unranked after a speedrank. Unrank is unrank.Inamaru wrote:
To my eyes, i don't have any kind of problem with speedrank, because if this happened sometimes just with random people, well good, lucky boy/girl, enjoy your map ranked and that's all. (and in case there's was an unrank well fuck, nevermind, try to be more careful next time)
BUT there's someone who still abusing of this (for 2 years) i don't care if he's the one who pray others BATs/MATs to get ranked his maps or it's just because he's so popular or something like that (generally 85% of his maps are ranked in 1/2 weeks? right?).
If those cases never happened, probably this topic/bad mood would have never started
I also don't want to delete the whole speedrank stuff, since most of the cases it ends good, but if not ..... then there is a question. Why this map was rushed over the ranking process? I mean if actually some people is able to spend more time to mod it. Or a BAT who ranked it actually ask a few testplay before he/she rank it.
I think if we add a number of required testplay (4 for each diff), before (actual BAT ask around for a few) it gets ranked, most issues will disappear.
Of course this will only work if the actual tester will tell his/her opinion.
A different view of the real problem from mine (I had said it was a problem of modding quality), but one that I can agree with. How do we stop mappers from going through the ranking process quicker than others?Dangaard wrote:
Taking the backdoor to VIP area is not fair.
I don't have what I think would be a definite solution to this yet. I will share when I do. However, for the time being, I can throw out one suggestion:
- If you are a modder, prioritize mappers who have a smaller chance of getting other mods if you didn't mod his. For a crude example, if NatsumeRin and espiritur00 both ask for your mod, mod espiritur00's map first. Never heard of espiritur00? That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.
In a rather offensive language, we modders must learn to stop sucking prominent dicks and offer help to where it is valued more. Mappers who we know to speedrank will keep doing it. It is up to us the modders to put a stop to it by modding other maps first. Don't fall for the m4m. Put the community before yourself.
Utopian solution? Yes. Will it work? Hell yes.
As a slightly fairer means, I think that it would be best if frequent modders simply kept an eye out for newer mappers, while carrying on with their usual routine. ion the rare occasion that I mod, I am very particular about who I give the time of day, because I want to know that I'm advising people who might care about my opinion. As a result, I am simply doing what's comfortable. However, I am trying to bring myself to look at newer mappers, whom I could set off with basic advice.
Basically, let's try not to have it the other way, where modders would say, "I don't need to mod this person's map, because I know that others will!" I think like that far too much and I really shouldn't. If everybody did that, then we'd end up with more attention to maps which will probably take a lot longer to rank, while better maps sit there and marinade in their own juices.
Basically, let's try not to have it the other way, where modders would say, "I don't need to mod this person's map, because I know that others will!" I think like that far too much and I really shouldn't. If everybody did that, then we'd end up with more attention to maps which will probably take a lot longer to rank, while better maps sit there and marinade in their own juices.
I think it should be a rule for mappers to thoughtfully reply to every mod
otherwise your map is un-eligible for ranking
This would help mappers put more thought into a quality map, instead of thinking only about getting ranked.
I know I gave up on modding because my mods, that I spent a lot of time on, went completely ignored
I think it's probably the same for a lot of modders.
Something like that would probably increase the number of people willing to do good mods, and also increase the quality of beatmaps
I'm scared to do mods for random people just because a lot of times the mod is wasted on them.
I've seen this happen quite a bit in speedranking, so I don't think it is completely unrelated.
But it is definitely a huge problem in terms of bad ranking, and also the morale of the modding community as a whole.
This leads to most mods of being low quality (people who do lazy mods only for kd) and to none of the mods actually contributing anything useful to the map.
This happens a lot in speedranks - there are a bunch of crap mods, usually m4m - and this number of mods makes the map look ready for ranking.
I think it would be a nice idea to be able to flag people as lazy modders (and give them silences or temp bans from the modding queues forum if they get enough flags) - note there's a difference between lazy modders, bad modders and inexperienced modders. Bad modders and inexperienced modders are still more useful than lazy modders when giving their all (even if the mod is not that great).
I guess this turned into more of a rant about the state of modding, and not speed ranking, but I don't think it's completely unrelated to the discussion... a lot of bad speed ranks come from bad modding. It's a problem with the mindset of the community and the XAT, one that I think can possibly be changed by putting certain rules in place, encouraging people to try harder.
I think also a lot of people have this mindset that maps that are really boring, but completely readable and have no technical "flaws" are ready for ranking, while maps with more originality or complex patterns are shunned because they go outside of the norm. I think if these maps are intuitive, readable and most importantly, fun, they are already better than the boring "perfect" maps. And if they aren't perfect, then they deserve the mods to get them there. Most speedranks are boring maps - they are maps without technical flaws because they are so simple and linear, easy to create if you stick to a certain formula. These maps are good in that they increase the number of maps (and songs) available, but bad in that they aren't fun to play. I think these sort of speedranks DO fit a certain role, which isn't inherently bad (having more songs to play is never a bad thing!), but in turn they are causing a lot of problems with the community.
I hope that makes a bit of sense, I might be sort of rambling at this point. My thoughts.
otherwise your map is un-eligible for ranking
This would help mappers put more thought into a quality map, instead of thinking only about getting ranked.
I know I gave up on modding because my mods, that I spent a lot of time on, went completely ignored
I think it's probably the same for a lot of modders.
Something like that would probably increase the number of people willing to do good mods, and also increase the quality of beatmaps
I'm scared to do mods for random people just because a lot of times the mod is wasted on them.
I've seen this happen quite a bit in speedranking, so I don't think it is completely unrelated.
But it is definitely a huge problem in terms of bad ranking, and also the morale of the modding community as a whole.
This leads to most mods of being low quality (people who do lazy mods only for kd) and to none of the mods actually contributing anything useful to the map.
This happens a lot in speedranks - there are a bunch of crap mods, usually m4m - and this number of mods makes the map look ready for ranking.
I think it would be a nice idea to be able to flag people as lazy modders (and give them silences or temp bans from the modding queues forum if they get enough flags) - note there's a difference between lazy modders, bad modders and inexperienced modders. Bad modders and inexperienced modders are still more useful than lazy modders when giving their all (even if the mod is not that great).
I guess this turned into more of a rant about the state of modding, and not speed ranking, but I don't think it's completely unrelated to the discussion... a lot of bad speed ranks come from bad modding. It's a problem with the mindset of the community and the XAT, one that I think can possibly be changed by putting certain rules in place, encouraging people to try harder.
I think also a lot of people have this mindset that maps that are really boring, but completely readable and have no technical "flaws" are ready for ranking, while maps with more originality or complex patterns are shunned because they go outside of the norm. I think if these maps are intuitive, readable and most importantly, fun, they are already better than the boring "perfect" maps. And if they aren't perfect, then they deserve the mods to get them there. Most speedranks are boring maps - they are maps without technical flaws because they are so simple and linear, easy to create if you stick to a certain formula. These maps are good in that they increase the number of maps (and songs) available, but bad in that they aren't fun to play. I think these sort of speedranks DO fit a certain role, which isn't inherently bad (having more songs to play is never a bad thing!), but in turn they are causing a lot of problems with the community.
I hope that makes a bit of sense, I might be sort of rambling at this point. My thoughts.
Silynn had a good idea, but the problem is that the quality of mod is somewhat subjective, for example, I saw my nazi stuff being followed more than non-nazi stuff many times and even some BATs/MATs being pointy to make you use the same tick rate in all diffs, or making joke of the mapper saying "it's not a karaoke", or even pointing out blue ticks in Normals as Unrankable stuff.
Well, the quality of the mod is up for you to decide, but I think you should at least reply to every mod and say what you did and didn't change, and if not, why. And maybe give more criticism of the mod, to help the modder out as well.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
Silynn had a good idea, but the problem is that the quality of mod is somewhat subjective, for example, I saw my nazi stuff being followed more than non-nazi stuff many times and even some BATs/MATs being pointy to make you use the same tick rate in all diffs, or making joke of the mapper saying "it's not a karaoke", or even pointing out blue ticks in Normals as Unrankable stuff.
Something like this would at least help modders grow, which would increase the quality of maps, and would also make many "arrogant" mappers more accepting of mods, likely decreasing the frequency of bad ranks/bad speed ranks.
off-topic
Let me talk off-topic about concerning of modding a bit (I am going to be back to the modding quality after ending of my post)
BATs should concern modding this kind of pending map
you see ? , rebubble from Andrea and it was rebubbled about 2 weeks ago and no other BATs come?
there are on the first page though but does any BATs take a look at it ?
You might say "oh this is popped for long time ago , it's just get rebubbled a few day ago so it will be looked like it's so long but not !"
I think you should care their effort more = =
again , this is from 2nd page in pending
tons of bubbled over 1 month - 2 month
(Also note that I say "you should concern , not you must". Even the map has fast ranked , I still don't care at all)
I guess this is the one of so many reasons why this topic has been started.
It's just a game so I don't care about upcoming ranked map much.
I see ranked map > I play, just that. I don't care how fast it is.
I'm not good and can't even involve in this big topic in the first place.
There is no solution here and this is not even related to the any modding quality subject that you have been discussing so far.
(Please note that I am on the neutral side) I don't support you dkun. but it makes sense right ?
I'm sorry to all of my BATs friend for being rude here, you might hate me because of this , my apologies here "orz
BATs should concern modding this kind of pending map
you see ? , rebubble from Andrea and it was rebubbled about 2 weeks ago and no other BATs come?
there are on the first page though but does any BATs take a look at it ?
You might say "oh this is popped for long time ago , it's just get rebubbled a few day ago so it will be looked like it's so long but not !"
I think you should care their effort more = =
again , this is from 2nd page in pending
tons of bubbled over 1 month - 2 month
(Also note that I say "you should concern , not you must". Even the map has fast ranked , I still don't care at all)
I guess this is the one of so many reasons why this topic has been started.
It's just a game so I don't care about upcoming ranked map much.
I see ranked map > I play, just that. I don't care how fast it is.
I'm not good and can't even involve in this big topic in the first place.
There is no solution here and this is not even related to the any modding quality subject that you have been discussing so far.
(Please note that I am on the neutral side) I don't support you dkun. but it makes sense right ?
I'm sorry to all of my BATs friend for being rude here, you might hate me because of this , my apologies here "orz
From Silynn's post
not everyone can explain the mod in documentary way. At least, I'm not native English speaker and I know my English is bad.
But there are still some of mappers that are completely unable to reply what they want to reply in English. Seriously, English is hard
Frost, I had actually kust bumped two of those three maps to 23 since I was tired of seeing maos I put time into rotting on the bottom. they have relatively only been on the first page for a couple days. Not to discredit your general point, but that is the situation for those ones.
As for older bubbles, it does happen. Youll notice that these are also generally longer maps with many difficulties. If youre short on time but want to squeeze in a mod or two, its much easier to do the short maps as there is mich less possibility of finding errors which adds to the timetable, let alone the already higher initial time. Its already implied through common sense that slower songs and linger maps are going to be more difficult to get mods for, so it shouldnt really come to much of a surprise. When it comes to this point, the mapper really needs to step up and advertise their work. Even if everyone says no, youve at least broughy it to their attention. I know ive checked back on maps long after I had initialy refused to see if the mapper has continued to try to get mods despite the set back. That or if I do notice it in the bubble list i am more likely to pick it than a random map i know nothing about.
Sorta off topic, but I figure I may as well give a perspective. Sorry for the rambling format. Typing on phone, blahblah.
As for older bubbles, it does happen. Youll notice that these are also generally longer maps with many difficulties. If youre short on time but want to squeeze in a mod or two, its much easier to do the short maps as there is mich less possibility of finding errors which adds to the timetable, let alone the already higher initial time. Its already implied through common sense that slower songs and linger maps are going to be more difficult to get mods for, so it shouldnt really come to much of a surprise. When it comes to this point, the mapper really needs to step up and advertise their work. Even if everyone says no, youve at least broughy it to their attention. I know ive checked back on maps long after I had initialy refused to see if the mapper has continued to try to get mods despite the set back. That or if I do notice it in the bubble list i am more likely to pick it than a random map i know nothing about.
Sorta off topic, but I figure I may as well give a perspective. Sorry for the rambling format. Typing on phone, blahblah.
Ah, I'm glad this finally showed up. As I said before in this thread, there are people who are able to speak both English and their native language in pretty much every language here. They can help mappers who aren't very good at English. I will concede that, if your native language doesn't have any similarities with English (which is why learning English for French and German people is easy), it's a pretty tough language to handle. However, even if you write something like "my English is poor" in your signature, you're acknowledging that your level isn't good enough; it's also up to you to improve it. This is an English-speaking community after all, and we are ready to make efforts, but they have to come from both sides.Frostmourne wrote:
not everyone can explain the mod in documentary way. At least, I'm not native English speaker and I know my English is bad.
But there are still some of mappers that are completely unable to reply what they want to reply in English. Seriously, English is hard
Reading through this thread, I've seen one major thing coming back: People don't mind speedranking if the map is "good". Unfortunately, either your definition of "good" relates to "rankable", or the standards for a good map have abnormally low. 99.9% of the time, speedranked maps have nothing special about them - like I said, they're rankable, but not good. This brings up another issue that's quite important to me, and people are trying to solve it, and it is getting better, but we're not quite there yet. It seems that people are satisfied with a map that has nothing "unrankable". And that's where I disagree because, you can still make a rankable, yet boring, uninteresting, and overall half-assed map. As people said before, quantity over quality. Is it really that great of a thing to have many maps ranked? People will think "oh yeah, I know this mapper, he's got lots of maps ranked". Wouldn't it be better if people thought "oh, I know this mapper, he made X map, that map was awesome"? Many people love Shinxyn as a mapper, despite him not having a great number of ranked maps. But that's only because some of his maps were great, and that's why people remember him.
A good map should be a map that stands out, that people want to play not because it gives them points (and possibly pp), but because it's fun and they enjoy playing it. To me, it should feature these elements:
- Readability.
The ability for the player to sightread the map without any problems. No map should require for any player to open the editor to understand how the map works. It has to be straightforward, and it has to make sense. - Flow.
This one is a bit of a pickle to explain. It's what makes the map that you're playing not feel like you're trying to keep up with it, but rather to feel like you're playing along with it. - Creativity.
Half of the map copypasted and flipped horizontally, vertically, etc. isn't creative. I'm not saying copypasting should never be used (it should be used) but you have to constantly come up with new patterns in your map. If you use the same techniques over and over, people are bound to get bored with it. - Consistency.
This is a rhythm game, after all. A map should be as accurate to the music/beat as possible. And it should be obvious for the player what part of the music is reproduced in the map. Hitsounds are your friends!
If you can make your map stand out, more power to you. Especially if you're unknown. Most people don't care who's mapping the map, especially if they don't know the mapper; if it's good, they will like it. Only these maps can be speedranked. Your other average mapset, with a substandard spread, uninteresting mapping and whatnot, despite being rankable, should go through a proper modding process in order for it to reach the level of these maps that stand out and deserve to be ranked.
A fast way to become a better mapper is, in fact, modding others map, and "talking" with the mappers of "why" he used that and this.Silynn wrote:
Well, the quality of the mod is up for you to decide, but I think you should at least reply to every mod and say what you did and didn't change, and if not, why. And maybe give more criticism of the mod, to help the modder out as well.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
Silynn had a good idea, but the problem is that the quality of mod is somewhat subjective, for example, I saw my nazi stuff being followed more than non-nazi stuff many times and even some BATs/MATs being pointy to make you use the same tick rate in all diffs, or making joke of the mapper saying "it's not a karaoke", or even pointing out blue ticks in Normals as Unrankable stuff.
Something like this would at least help modders grow, which would increase the quality of maps, and would also make many "arrogant" mappers more accepting of mods, likely decreasing the frequency of bad ranks/bad speed ranks.
I answer to mods I do and receive almost everytime and i can seem arrogant, you don't need a perfect english to explain most things, though. ( You need a decent english in some cases to make other understand your mods, though).
From Mr Color's post, it seems that we need to redefine what is "Rankable" is it just following the ranking criteria? or is it something else.
From the 4 points you mentioned, beside creativity all of them should be enforced (and if they arent then something's going very wrong in the ranking process), and creativity must be something like avoiding excessive copy/paste, as creativity doesn't mean that you use more or less copy/paste, it's mostly the ability to make something new out of your designs. I'd consider a mapper which all their maps feel exactly the same a lack of creativity, even if they don't use copy/pasting at all.
Ok that bit about creativity was a bit off-topic dont mind me XP
Imo, a map should be more than just rankable to be rankable... if that makes any sense.
From the 4 points you mentioned, beside creativity all of them should be enforced (and if they arent then something's going very wrong in the ranking process), and creativity must be something like avoiding excessive copy/paste, as creativity doesn't mean that you use more or less copy/paste, it's mostly the ability to make something new out of your designs. I'd consider a mapper which all their maps feel exactly the same a lack of creativity, even if they don't use copy/pasting at all.
Ok that bit about creativity was a bit off-topic dont mind me XP
Imo, a map should be more than just rankable to be rankable... if that makes any sense.
Making your map "rankable" is necessary. It is also unsufficient.
Rankable means your map doesn't have any unrankable issues, such as bad timing, wrong use of sliders, bad snapping, etc etc. But it isn't (if it is, it shouldn't be) enough for a map to be ranked.
Rankable means your map doesn't have any unrankable issues, such as bad timing, wrong use of sliders, bad snapping, etc etc. But it isn't (if it is, it shouldn't be) enough for a map to be ranked.
Exactly. Also, speedranking a map because it is super awesome never happened (or barely ever?), only because it is from X mapper.Mr Color wrote:
Reading through this thread, I've seen one major thing coming back: People don't mind speedranking if the map is "good". Unfortunately, either your definition of "good" relates to "rankable", or the standards for a good map have abnormally low. 99.9% of the time, speedranked maps have nothing special about them - like I said, they're rankable, but not good. This brings up another issue that's quite important to me, and people are trying to solve it, and it is getting better, but we're not quite there yet. It seems that people are satisfied with a map that has nothing "unrankable". And that's where I disagree because, you can still make a rankable, yet boring, uninteresting, and overall half-assed map. As people said before, quantity over quality. Is it really that great of a thing to have many maps ranked? People will think "oh yeah, I know this mapper, he's got lots of maps ranked". Wouldn't it be better if people thought "oh, I know this mapper, he made X map, that map was awesome"? Many people love Shinxyn as a mapper, despite him not having a great number of ranked maps. But that's only because some of his maps were great, and that's why people remember him.
But, I think speedranking is the reason of this lack of creativity, or call it quantity over quality. Everyone knows that half-assed maps, as you said, are much easier to mod and have way less "errors" (misplaced notes, etc) than maps in which the creator really made an effort. Well, in most of the cases. Also, creating a half-assed map with tons of copypasta and CTRL+H is way faster than anything else, am I right? Well, this could be called "speedmapping", in my opinion. Some mappers just create "meh" beatmaps like a pooting machine, and what a coincidence, they make this half assed maps and speedranks. I think it's all about speeding up things. Speedmapping boring maps leads to speedmodding, speedmodding leads to speedranking.
Well, that's my point of view.
Ah, I didn't think of that (as it's never really concerned me, so it slipped my mind), but it is a valid point. Although, if you can not convey your thoughts in the modders native language, I think it would be nice for everyone to at least put "yes" or "no" for everything on the mod. --and if you DO speak the modder's language, then make your reply more in-depth~Frostmourne wrote:
From Silynn's post
not everyone can explain the mod in documentary way. At least, I'm not native English speaker and I know my English is bad.
But there are still some of mappers that are completely unable to reply what they want to reply in English. Seriously, English is hard
All I'm really trying to say though, is while a lot of a members of the XAT aren't doing their quality control job correctly (hence the number of unranks recently), I think there also should be a change in the mindset of a large portion of the community as well, for creating these low quality maps and also thinking those low quality maps are standard. There's a lot of things that can be changed around here to sort of remedy that, and I'm just throwing around a few ideas that may or not work.
After all, the best way to get change is to at least throw around alternatives - saying what's wrong with the system and not having a fix will not get you anywhere.
Sakura, there are many ranked map that doesn't have a good flow, neither a good consistency or a perfect readability, still.
But that's just that some people didn't point that out.
Speedranked maps are not bad maps, but neither excellent maps. So they should be ranked at the same speed of any other normal-quality map.
It's like a troll for peoples who "try" to make a good map.
I know the whole "when you map you SHOULDN'T think of rank, but to map the best map ever" and peoples really want to have a rank, before making a good map(Example, how Andrea in the start was angry with Inamaru).
But that's just that some people didn't point that out.
Speedranked maps are not bad maps, but neither excellent maps. So they should be ranked at the same speed of any other normal-quality map.
It's like a troll for peoples who "try" to make a good map.
I know the whole "when you map you SHOULDN'T think of rank, but to map the best map ever" and peoples really want to have a rank, before making a good map(Example, how Andrea in the start was angry with Inamaru).
er...out of topic again?
anyway....imo, mapping is art, so the deadline is ranking rules, anything doesn't touch the line should be accepted. Maybe they're not good enough, but we can't say that's "unrankable".
Sometimes i would use an example to describe: Like food --- everybody know what is unsavory, but each person has special flavor. We cant say fried chicken is worse than chinese chilly food because that is individuality.
i know it's very very hard to distinguish....that's why we need modder/MAT/BAT, why we need SR-bubble-rank system. What i expect is this system could be on its original purpose, but not abuse. that's all.
Still, i don't mind speedranking, and i don't care about mappers who get many spedrankings, What i care about is mappers should try their best to make a map good, that's all.
anyway....imo, mapping is art, so the deadline is ranking rules, anything doesn't touch the line should be accepted. Maybe they're not good enough, but we can't say that's "unrankable".
Sometimes i would use an example to describe: Like food --- everybody know what is unsavory, but each person has special flavor. We cant say fried chicken is worse than chinese chilly food because that is individuality.
i know it's very very hard to distinguish....that's why we need modder/MAT/BAT, why we need SR-bubble-rank system. What i expect is this system could be on its original purpose, but not abuse. that's all.
Still, i don't mind speedranking, and i don't care about mappers who get many spedrankings, What i care about is mappers should try their best to make a map good, that's all.
I said what's the problem in the post.Scorpiour wrote:
Still, i don't mind speedranking, and i don't care about mappers who get many spedrankings, What i care about is mappers should try their best to make a map good, that's all.
Speedranked maps AREN'T good maps, but simply... "Normal Quality" maps. And Speedranking is just a tease for mapper who make good maps and have them ranked in weeks, months, seasons or even years.
i can understand your mood...believe me.....and please forgive me if i didn't present my perspective well.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
I said what's the problem in the post.
Speedranked maps AREN'T good maps, but simply... "Normal Quality" maps. And Speedranking is just a tease for mapper who make good maps and have them ranked in weeks, months, seasons or even years.
in some degrees, it's really really unfair to those mappers who spend a lot of in mapping, but we cannot say this is someone's wrong....this problem comes from the whole system...
"if.." the BAT simply stopped to accept to rank someone young map(<1-2 weeks) simply because they beg them.
A lot of the problem here is not just that these maps are getting ranked quickly - it's that a lot of them are being unranked after being ranked quickly.Scorpiour wrote:
i can understand your mood...believe me.....and please forgive me if i didn't present my perspective well.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
I said what's the problem in the post.
Speedranked maps AREN'T good maps, but simply... "Normal Quality" maps. And Speedranking is just a tease for mapper who make good maps and have them ranked in weeks, months, seasons or even years.
in some degrees, it's really really unfair to those mappers who spend a lot of in mapping, but we cannot say this is someone's wrong....this problem comes from the whole system...
One thing we could do is require a certain amount of XATs to play/approve the map before it is ranked IF it is under 2 weeks old. This means there are multiple expert opinions put into the map, regardless of who modded it beforehand. It would not be the responsibility of the mapper to gather multiple XATs, it would be the BAT who wants to rank the map. This gives the mapper a decision to make. They could do one of the following:
-Attempt to get their map ranked early, having faith that their map is good enough without the extra mods.
-Spend some more time to attract more mods to make sure their map gets ranked when they pitch it to a BAT.
The first option is a harder rank because multiple XATs need to give the OK, and it really doesn't work unless it actually DESERVES to be speedranked. If it goes through multiple XATs to get ranked, it shouldn't have an unrankable flaw. The second option (The traditional method) is easier because you get more quality mods, and your map only needs to pass by 1 BAT to get ranked.
-Attempt to get their map ranked early, having faith that their map is good enough without the extra mods.
-Spend some more time to attract more mods to make sure their map gets ranked when they pitch it to a BAT.
The first option is a harder rank because multiple XATs need to give the OK, and it really doesn't work unless it actually DESERVES to be speedranked. If it goes through multiple XATs to get ranked, it shouldn't have an unrankable flaw. The second option (The traditional method) is easier because you get more quality mods, and your map only needs to pass by 1 BAT to get ranked.
we can treat younger ranked maps like approved, maybe.
A map that is under two week old need 2 bubbles ( the 2nd bubble should have corrected meaningless problems ).
A map that is under two week old need 2 bubbles ( the 2nd bubble should have corrected meaningless problems ).
Not too sure that will solve the problem, exactly.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
we can treat younger ranked maps like approved, maybe.
A map that is under two week old need 2 bubbles ( the 2nd bubble should have corrected meaningless problems ).
You're just double-checking. It'll resolve the problem and make "speedranked" a bit more higher quality (the ranking BAT have to control if the 2nd bubble was correctly given, in the sense, the 2nd bubble corrected small problems) and it won't Slow the ranking process, as it's only applied to fastly ranked map.
No one have to change his ways of choosing what to check, and it's settled.
Even if it won't completely resolve it, it shall settle it a lil more.
No one have to change his ways of choosing what to check, and it's settled.
Even if it won't completely resolve it, it shall settle it a lil more.
Topic Starter
I'll +1 this.those wrote:
Not too sure that will solve the problem, exactly.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
we can treat younger ranked maps like approved, maybe.
A map that is under two week old need 2 bubbles ( the 2nd bubble should have corrected meaningless problems ).
As much as I hate to say it, I don't want to trust the BAT team with "quality control" or to be able to judge if a map should be ranked based on the time. Because there has been a "focus" on that higher priority should be ranked, but where has that gone?
A page back...
tl;dr, placing a sanction on ranking will hinder the process. The best logical solution is that change needs to come from within the team to solve what they have created; the void that we call "speedranking" a map.dkun wrote:
I don't mean to point fingers myself, but it doesn't help if we're oblivious to the obvious. I stated this then, and I'll state this again. An effective measure to start to combat the issue is to remove the most prominent issue at hand, is it not?Inamaru wrote:
First of all, try to understand i'm not trying to make drama or something like that, but it's just what i'm thinking of this.
If (for various reason) you don't like what i wrote feel free to insult me in pm, thank you.
This is just my opinion
So i'm going straight to the point
To my eyes, i don't have any kind of problem with speedrank, because if this happened sometimes just with random people, well good, lucky boy/girl, enjoy your map ranked and that's all. (and in case there's was an unrank well fuck, nevermind, try to be more careful next time)
BUT there's someone who still abusing of this (for 2 years) i don't care if he's the one who pray others BATs/MATs to get ranked his maps or it's just because he's so popular or something like that (generally 85% of his maps are ranked in 1/2 weeks? right?).
If those cases never happened, probably this topic/bad mood would have never started
And: if you're trying to say "he's the best BAT of the year/ he's the best BAT who works in this team (a lot of maps ranked)"
whoa i never received something for doing my "job" here.
Probably I've only receive the gratitude/thankfullness of users, and that's the best thing I can have. (Of course someone will hate me but i don't care)
EDIT:
I'm sure there are some similiar cases probably, but right now i'm just putting the "most important".
But what has me more curious is what these individuals have to say about what they do. I stepped up to the plate, so shouldn't they? There's always two sides to a story.
That i shall.peppy wrote:
17:56 <peppy.> let that thread know there has only been 7 in the last month (sub-2-week ranks)
Set ID, mapper, days taken.
55626 Andrea 6
55494 Andrea 9
54829 Andrea 9
54707 Kawayi Rika 13
54182 grumd 8
54090 Yasora 10
54066 Andrea 5
55626 Andrea 6
55494 Andrea 9
54829 Andrea 9
54707 Kawayi Rika 13
54182 grumd 8
54090 Yasora 10
54066 Andrea 5
It's hard to use the word only when the majority are by one person.Sakura wrote:
That i shall.peppy wrote:
17:56 <peppy.> let that thread know there has only been 7 in the last month (sub-2-week ranks)Set ID, mapper, days taken.
55626 Andrea 6
55494 Andrea 9
54829 Andrea 9
54707 Kawayi Rika 13
54182 grumd 8
54090 Yasora 10
54066 Andrea 5
There are only about 140 maps ranked in the one month... 5% isn't too low 
In fact I don't think 2 weeks is "too fast", I just don't understand why so many mappers can wait for like 9 months just to rank a map
In fact I don't think 2 weeks is "too fast", I just don't understand why so many mappers can wait for like 9 months just to rank a map
Topic Starter
In the last month? Okay. Andrea ranks 4-6 maps in 4 weeks. Other people cannot get 1 map ranked in 4 months.Sakura wrote:
That i shall.peppy wrote:
17:56 <peppy.> let that thread know there has only been 7 in the last month (sub-2-week ranks)Set ID, mapper, days taken.
55626 Andrea 6
55494 Andrea 9
54829 Andrea 9
54707 Kawayi Rika 13
54182 grumd 8
54090 Yasora 10
54066 Andrea 5
Some maps have sat in pending for how long?
Also two of those 7 were deranks.
-Post Deleted-if you read in the thread, the general opinion is
as you see, nobody complains about andreas newest ranked map, either, as it is not a bad map.
The problem being addressed here is that bad maps are a byproduct of speedranking. It was noted early on that people are perfectly fine if GOOD maps get speedranked because they are good and should be playable. Mediocre and below maps however would benefit from the time spent cooking in the pending maps section.
Good maps = GOOD
Bad maps = BAD
Speedranking = Without moderation, more BAD maps get through.
Thus this thread is born
Good maps = GOOD
Bad maps = BAD
Speedranking = Without moderation, more BAD maps get through.
Thus this thread is born
The quality itself shouldn't be a measure of how fast a map will be ranked, I seriously don't get why so many in this thread got this opinion. The main measure should always be priority. The quality maps are supposed to have many SP, so these are supposed to get ranked faster. In theory there shouldn't be any "bad maps" with a bubble to begin with.
About the Gangnam map: I think this one is quite a valid "speedrank" since it had quite some priority and tons of favs already.
About the Gangnam map: I think this one is quite a valid "speedrank" since it had quite some priority and tons of favs already.
Now if the priority system actually worked, this problem would be a little less prominent.
Well,the other complaint is actually that the people getting the speedrank are the same OVER AND OVER
did yeahyeahyeah get other speedranks?
did yeahyeahyeah get other speedranks?
i really liked ur solution u provided on 9th page of this thread, i will quote it once again:Dangaard wrote:
The quality itself shouldn't be a measure of how fast a map will be ranked, I seriously don't get why so many in this thread got this opinion. The main measure should always be priority. The quality maps are supposed to have many SP, so these are supposed to get ranked faster. In theory there shouldn't be any "bad maps" with a bubble to begin with.
sadly it was skippedDangaard wrote:
The problem about the recent speedrank cases is not the quality of the map itself (ok, actually one of them was un- and reranked), but it's the way of sneaking its way to the rank while other pending maps with more SP are at least on a similar quality level. Maps are supposed to be modded and ranked based on the SP, in a community of this scale some sort of system is necessary.
Apparently we cannot do priority modding 100% of the time, but seeing this sort of exception happen to the same people all the time cannot be considered as coincidence. While a "speedrank" of one map doesn't really hurt anyone and is rather a matter of principle, it's different when these cases accumulate. A system like this can't work if people always get weak to their friends' mod requests or think their friends' map is ready for ranking and they have to take actions.
Once again: The quality isn't the main problem here! Good maps should always be ranked as soon as possible, but remember that we have a public queue aka priority system. Taking the backdoor to VIP area is not fair.
if the bats/mats suddenly stop mod via pm or queue, and start mod based on SP priority only, it will prevent speedranking in any form
u can ask "what if someone throw N stars on map" to get it first in map queue.. well.. if someone got so many kudosu to do that, thats mean he spend lot of time to help other mappers and in some way deserve to get priority mod
since the SP system was changed, it should work like it was intended
So did the other latest speedranked maps, just saying.Dangaard wrote:
About the Gangnam map: I think this one is quite a valid "speedrank" since it had quite some priority and tons of favs already.
Except this one hasn't gotten unranked, just saying.
Except yeahyeahyeah doesn't have so many speedrankslolcubes wrote:
So did the other latest speedranked maps, just saying.Dangaard wrote:
About the Gangnam map: I think this one is quite a valid "speedrank" since it had quite some priority and tons of favs already.
12 days rank, 2 difficulties only
I belive this map is exagerated, 2 diffs (You call this a good diff spread? many maps need to have minimum 3 diffs for being ranked), only 2 thread pages and 9 mod, bubble in 4 day when maps got 5/6/7 pages, 2x~3x mods, more than 3~4 month old and no MAT post. You think this is fair?
And I belive SP system is useless, I moded many maps even if my modding skill is no so good for increase my map priority. Now what? SP +12 or SP +50 don't change anything MAT don't mod it, normal I'm new mapper, MATs preffer mod map from know mapper or other MATs/BATs. That give some MAT / BAT maps speedrank and let normal/new mappers map's die because they can't get a MAT mod even when they have high SP and many "normal" mods.
I belive a rule must be added like if a map is not minimum 1 month old and have not recived at least 10 or 15 mods it can't be ranked.
I aslo think the thing in panding beatmaps should say
"Needs modding (No MAT/BAT posts yet)." instead of just "Needs modding (No BAT posts yet)", and post by MAT which aren't MAT when they posted them not counted (Because I've two MAT post on my 1st page, but they aren't MAT when they posted them
)
And I belive SP system is useless, I moded many maps even if my modding skill is no so good for increase my map priority. Now what? SP +12 or SP +50 don't change anything MAT don't mod it, normal I'm new mapper, MATs preffer mod map from know mapper or other MATs/BATs. That give some MAT / BAT maps speedrank and let normal/new mappers map's die because they can't get a MAT mod even when they have high SP and many "normal" mods.
I belive a rule must be added like if a map is not minimum 1 month old and have not recived at least 10 or 15 mods it can't be ranked.
I aslo think the thing in panding beatmaps should say
"Needs modding (No MAT/BAT posts yet)." instead of just "Needs modding (No BAT posts yet)", and post by MAT which aren't MAT when they posted them not counted (Because I've two MAT post on my 1st page, but they aren't MAT when they posted them
)