nobody will ever be able to rank their own maps. even in the new proposed system, it requires community consensus and always will require consensus of some form.Wishy22 wrote:
Give elite mappers the ability to rank their own maps. They're not retarded and they won't rank it before getting some suggestions/mods from players/other mappers. With that you save some time MATs/BATs spend modding some maps they can't even play/are even better than theirs. Plus you don't get Gold Dust and maps like that waiting for months till some random guy comes and rank it. If they abuse their power they can be removed from their position.
care to elaborate? this is vague.Wishy22 wrote:
Remove the kudosu system and use another one, it's retarded and impulses fast shit mods.
and then what? they are removed from the team once reaching 0 points? all this will do is cause people to not look at maps for fear of reprisal, meaning the entire system will collapse in on itself. smart suggestion.Wishy22 wrote:
Give MATs/BATs X chances to bubble/rank un-rankable maps. Let's say have 2 points to begin with, they get a point for every X correct bubbles they hand out, and of course they lose a point every fucking time they bubble a map that ends up getting un-ranked. 0 points = bye bye.
credence is likely already given to "proven" mappers by some members of the team already.. others call it "speedranking". see the problem here?Wishy22 wrote:
Problem is not speed-ranking but the fact some maps get ranked as fast as they get un-ranked, which is pathetic. And it's even worse when epic maps take ages to get ranked/never do. I'd seriously give privileges to those mappers who have shown to be able to map really well without 999 mods. Of course, since they have years here and have mapped a lot, seriously you can help out people like galvenize or val0108 with a little mod, but dude lol I've played many of their maps just out of the oven even before they got any mods and they are still better than 95% of the ranked maps we get every week. It is true they get some mods but the changes they get are minimum, and if they are noticeable I think those mappers are smart enough to figure that out after watching a free test plays like they always do.
there has always been a profound difference between a good mapper and a good modder - the two are not always mutually exclusive. a fantastic modder may be a terrible mapper, and vice versa. it is also exceptionally difficult to retain interest in actively playing a game where you are spending 80% of your time for said game on working for other people's projects for practically no benefit other than the occasional "thanks". what you are proposing in essence is that we begin to treat this position like people actually receive any form of benefit for helping out. the moment we start excessively reprimanding people for mistakes is the moment this team begins to fall apart, and practically anybody in the staff team at the moment is aware of this.Wishy22 wrote:
tl;dr: Crap. Make BATs/MATs get fired if they screw up too much/make their team look pathetic. Stop being so elitist, MATs/BATs are not mapping geniuses and aren't even that good@mapping when compared to some of the best mappers you got around. (Since most of them don't even play the game/suck and can't play most maps)
Most "best" mappers don't really need mods, and they search for approval In-Game, by asking for test plays/little mods from players, since the best way to mod a map and find it's errors is TO PLAY THEM. As I said many times I got to play maps even before they got submitted/just after they did, and guess what, they got ranked months after and the map was pretty much the same, of course, you can't really go around telling very experienced mappers what to change in their maps, unless you find some critical mistake, which would be really rare.Ephemeral wrote:
nobody will ever be able to rank their own maps. even in the new proposed system, it requires community consensus and always will require consensus of some form.
care to elaborate? this is vague.Way too easy to abuse, and a good reason to speed-mod/do shit mods everywhere just to get kudosu. You could say this incentives people to mod maps to get kudosu, I think it just makes them do bad and fast mods. Different points of view I guess.
and then what? they are removed from the team once reaching 0 points? all this will do is cause people to not look at maps for fear of reprisal, meaning the entire system will collapse in on itself. smart suggestion.If you get to be a MAT/BAT you shouldn't be worried about that, just do your job wisely and carefully and you won't have any problem. What you say is a possibility, but if you made it to that position and yet you're as good as any random modder/mapper/player then something's wrong. Being a MAT/BAT should mean that you're over the average so you can give better mods, also meaning your judgement is good enough to decide that a map should be ranked. If someone can get to that position without those minimum condition, then even the bases are wrong.
credence is likely already given to "proven" mappers by some members of the team already.. others call it "speedranking". see the problem here?As I said speed ranking is fine.
there has always been a profound difference between a good mapper and a good modder - the two are not always mutually exclusive. a fantastic modder may be a terrible mapper, and vice versa. it is also exceptionally difficult to retain interest in actively playing a game where you are spending 80% of your time for said game on working for other people's projects for practically no benefit other than the occasional "thanks". what you are proposing in essence is that we begin to treat this position like people actually receive any form of benefit for helping out. the moment we start excessively reprimanding people for mistakes is the moment this team begins to fall apart, and practically anybody in the staff team at the moment is aware of this.
while i can understand your frustrations about the system, i think that you are looking towards the wrong part of the system to attempt to fix what is wrong. being more strict with the BAT/MAT will not solve anything, only cause more issues. the system needs to be fundamentally changed at the most basic level, which it will be, provided peppy ever gets around to implementing the new ranking system over all the other thousands of bugs and feature requests.
This. Because if you look around, not many mappers' maps get speedranked. They all quite involve the same specific group of people.KRZY wrote:
a problem of certain members of the MAT/BAT .... not having the right mindset for their jobs.
I agree with you. Speedranking happens usually in maps that usually involve the same specific group of people.xsrsbsns wrote:
This. Because if you look around, not many mappers' maps get speedranked. They all quite involve the same specific group of people.
I for one disagree with things like "speedranking is okay as long as the map's flawless", because it doesn't only take 2 XATs in 2 days to decide that. Then again, I guess it's not too hard to, for example, map something with 1.0x DS and call it flawless.
I read this and I agree with most points.Garven wrote:
With regards to the modding quality aspect, I wholeheartedly agree. I wrote a short blurb on the issue a while back when the public concern was more about the large amount of bubbles. This is in my user page and is also translated to Chinese thanks to LKs and JPY. Im on my phone so its a butt to post here for your reading convenience, sorry. q:
I think a change in attitude from mappers could help a lot here - especially from newer mappers. You should expect to remap your first few creations several times before getting significant progress in the ranking system. Even having to abandon a mapset isn’t unheard of. There seems to be the feeling that anything you create will ultimately go for ranking, regardless of quality. Mappers also need to be open to alternative ideas in their maps, and to take the spirit of a suggestion in check instead of simply saying “yes” or “no”. Consider why the modder gave the suggestion and even if you disagree with that particular implementation. Is there a way you can use it somewhere else in your map? Does it give you an idea of how to make another pattern better? If mappers dug a little deeper into suggestions for their work, it could go a long way to improving map sets, and possibly bring forth new and better ideas.This shows that mapping is a growing process; even ampzz once said something to the effect of "everything from a week ago now looks like **** to me; I hate my past maps and need to remap them," which is a decision he made himself after going back and looking at his older maps.
The modder now has to explain why the map isn’t up to standards, and the mapper is stuck with a the decision of remapping, essentially wiping out all the suggestions of previous modders, or leaving it the same and hoping they will luck out with more lenient upper-level modders. If the remap does occur, this leaves responsibility in the hands of the modder who made the suggestion to help guide the mapper and let them grow. This is a significant investment of time and requires a lot of patience depending on how the mapper interprets the advice given. Of course this means less time modding other map sets, and is another reason for the bottleneck of beatmaps in the bubble list. What little time the moderators in management have to offer towards modding tends to be focused towards the easier-to-mod maps since they won’t require as much time to take care of.I'd like to point out where he says that management will offer modding towards easier-to-mod maps, pointing a lack of effort on the part of management. I'm not blaming them, please don't misunderstand.
well, everyone can speedrank if they wanth3k1ru wrote:
if ppl can speedrank, they do it
every mapper think their map is good, and at the point they press "Submit" button they want get it rankedMilkshake wrote:
well, everyone can speedrank if they wanth3k1ru wrote:
if ppl can speedrank, they do it
but it doesn't say that their maps are good, because most of the speedranks are coming from the same mappers and they're just boring as fuck, gets speedrank because the mapper is popular and not because the mapset worth it
fwiw i've speedranked more maps than you. what is your point? if you have nothing to contribute, then please leave.h3k1ru wrote:
if ppl can speedrank, they do it
if ppl cant speedrank, they make threads like this
no need discussion here, its simple
How about songs that are good and maps are horribad? Your favorite song was mapped so bad that it's not even fun to play.h3k1ru wrote:
if u dislike maps from some mappers, just skip it
glad to hear that from a guy, whos complain about speedranking, loldkun wrote:
fwiw i've speedranked more maps than you.
its solve all the problems, otherway u become.. uhm.. "hater"?dkun wrote:
"skipping" and pretending it doesn't exist doesn't solve the problem
remap it! make it like u think "it should looks"aston wrote:
How about songs that are good and maps are horribad? Your favorite song was mapped so bad that it's not even fun to play.
then we can rank everything :'D doesn't matter if it's bad or not, let's just skip it :'DDDDDh3k1ru wrote:
its solve all the problems, otherway u become.. uhm.. "hater"?
h3k1ru wrote:
glad to hear that from a guy, whos complain about speedranking, loldkun wrote:
fwiw i've speedranked more maps than you.its solve all the problems, otherway u become.. uhm.. "hater"?dkun wrote:
"skipping" and pretending it doesn't exist doesn't solve the problem
dkun wrote:
@other people: if this doesn't concern you, or if you have negative things to say about speedranking that does not contribute to the thread's purpose, then please do not post at all.
dkun wrote:
@other people: if this doesn't concern you, or if you have negative things to say about speedranking that does not contribute to the thread's purpose, then please do not post at all.
It's not so much that the system is faulty--it's that people are faulty. The only way to guarantee a map's quality is to let it receive as much feedback as possible.thelewa wrote:
h3k1ru, dkun is not complaining out of envy. He is complaining because he knows that the system is faulty.
I agree with this so much, it's not even funny. I actually made a small paragraph about this very topic a few pages earlier:Odaril wrote:
That said, one of the problem with modding quality is mapper response. We all know a lot of mappers who just reply "no" to everything without even explaining why, when they actually bother replying to mods. This attitude has become way too common and nothing is being done about it. I've talked to a few people whom I consider to be excellent modders, but hardly mod anymore, and they all said the same thing: they are tired of the mapper response and don't think it's worth it to try to help them anymore.
This is really something to be considered here, imo. I personally think that a bad behavior towards your map should end up with it nuked, but I know it's a bit extreme of a stance. Any mapper, before being able to give kudosu to any mod, would have to quote the mod, and reply to it with what he changed, didn't change, and why. This causes a problem: Some mappers really aren't good with English. This we can fix by asking people who can speak both the mapper's native language, and English, to help out. It should motivate said mappers to improve their English skills, also.Mr Color wrote:
See, that's something I disagree with. Instead of getting the map ranked with fewer mods, the map should be stuck in its ranking process until the mapper accepts to give in and eventually apply changes pointed out by the mods. This would prompt mappers with too much pride to learn some modesty, also.
fyi, you might say this in an ironic/sarcastic fashion, but they are players who really think this should be how the system works. Sadly enough.Milkshake wrote:
then we can rank everything :'D doesn't matter if it's bad or not, let's just skip it :'DDDDD
I would love to perma lock these queues, as they're the greatest example of people abusing the system. Most of the time, the author is one of these mappers with awful attitude. Unfortunately, for now, the BAT has no authority over how mod queues are made.Frizz925 wrote:
How about those modding queues which put "star this map first" as one of the rules (Star 4 Mod queues)? I mean why ask people to star your map when you just can mod someone's map, get kudosu, and then star your own map? This can fool anyone into thinking that the map is bubble/rank worthy as it receives lots of stars from other people while actually lacking mods and/or actual stars from others (not stars from queues).
Do you really think we can get a quality mod without MOD4MOD? Yes you might be definitely right but sadly there is like 1% chance to receive any mod if you don't run for M4M.Shiro wrote:
One thing that contributes to the lowering quality of modding is, in my opinion, mod4mod. While modding is suppose to be a free act to help someone improve, mod4mod basically makes it become "I'll just mod it so he mods mine" and both mods are half-assed and of very low quality. Anything along the lines of "if you mod my map I'll do this" contributes to this trend
Agree with this, the Kudosu system those days is completely useless due the new "I give a kudosu, I have a Star Point" system, but I don't know if the kudosu system will be removed in over time.Scorpiour wrote:
Kudosu is useless.... since mod can give SP, it's worse. Mappers could derive satification from ranking map, but pity modders can only earn some KDs which couldn't make their map have a high enough priority to MAT/BAT, and now even the only usage of kds might be replaced.
Yeah, but instead of "I'll mod the maps of the first three persons who mod my map", which encourages people to make quick and poor mods, why not doing something like "I'll mod maps from a selection of the most useful mods given for my map in a period of three days" ? You'll get better mods, and you'll be encouraged to make good mods too, while not being overwhelmed by requests.Scorpiour wrote:
M4M is the most stable way to earn a mod now. But about time limition to instead of slot limit, it's really just a joke because the req will be excess. Modding is a hard work and most modder can mod only several maps per week, espeically experienced modders -- they always have more reqs via online directly.
I actually disagree, if you're a known mapper, then you can probably get all your SP from mod posts true, but if you're a new mapper, then most of your hopes of increasing the SP would come from your own kudosu.Mercurial wrote:
Agree with this, the Kudosu system those days is completely useless due the new "I give a kudosu, I have a Star Point" system, but I don't know if the kudosu system will be removed in over time.Scorpiour wrote:
Kudosu is useless.... since mod can give SP, it's worse. Mappers could derive satification from ranking map, but pity modders can only earn some KDs which couldn't make their map have a high enough priority to MAT/BAT, and now even the only usage of kds might be replaced.
you're right, KDs might be the only way for new mapper to improve their SP but the most scarce is experienced modder.... i can remember nearly all active modders' name, not because of my good memory, but due to there's no many.Sakura wrote:
I actually disagree, if you're a known mapper, then you can probably get all your SP from mod posts true, but if you're a new mapper, then most of your hopes of increasing the SP would come from your own kudosu.Mercurial wrote:
Agree with this, the Kudosu system those days is completely useless due the new "I give a kudosu, I have a Star Point" system, but I don't know if the kudosu system will be removed in over time.
Thoughts like this are okay, however they are very vague and without a solution. Best way to change something is when you aren't satisfied with something, provide an alternative which you find satisfying. Just keep in mind that you need to look at it objectively and with the bigger picture, in addition to it's potential flaws, etc.Frizz925 wrote:
I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.
Frizz925 wrote:
I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.
this.Shiro wrote:
Frizz925 wrote:
I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.
Prevent people from using kd on a map that isn't at least +12 ?
Lets get back to this line for a second, i want to hear peoples opinion on this.dkun wrote:
Essentially... Getting a map "speedranked" accelerates or even skips over the modding process, hindering the quality of ranked maps. It skips over what makes a map "polished", or what makes it "good". This is something that shouldn't be rushed, or avoided to any extent.
According to the currently most popular standard, the first would be called a speedrank and much sarcasm would ensue in the beatmap topic after it is ranked. The second would not be called a speedrank but a couple of people might take a swipe at its lack of mods. However, it would never receive as much attention as the first mapset did.Gabi wrote:
Lets get back to this line for a second, i want to hear peoples opinion on this.
1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?
2. A map that has been in pending for 4 months, has 7 mods (4 normal, 3 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this one also go through the modding process and is ready for rank?
Which case is most eligible for rank?
Not trying to be subjective here, but this is what happened, for example, with the recently unranked map, which has also happened plenty of times with the same mapper. They get half-assed mods quickly and just call random MATs/BATs so the map gets ranked quickly. Yes, no matter how many mods there are in the thread, quality is barely looked into the mapset, using mods simply as a way to say "this map has been modded please rank it now" and not as a way to make your map better.Gabi wrote:
1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?
Neither; but in today's case? Number 2 would be taken as the "better" solution, as time has passed. I'm essentially saying that more time should be given (but a limit shouldn't be placed, as that's counter productive).Gabi wrote:
Lets get back to this line for a second, i want to hear peoples opinion on this.dkun wrote:
Essentially... Getting a map "speedranked" accelerates or even skips over the modding process, hindering the quality of ranked maps. It skips over what makes a map "polished", or what makes it "good". This is something that shouldn't be rushed, or avoided to any extent.
1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?
2. A map that has been in pending for 4 months, has 7 mods (4 normal, 3 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this one also go through the modding process and is ready for rank?
Which case is most eligible for rank?
Keep in mind I wrote this when there was a huge bottleneck of bubbled maps in pending (~5 pages) so this was more the reasoning as to why some maps ended up rotting for 4+ weeks and other maps were still getting ranked quickly. With the semi-recent return to the focus on higher priority maps, it has definitely helped a lot on the older maps front, as long as either the mapper or others cared enough to try and promote their map to the first page. There are still some old ones there, but I have a feeling there are far fewer now than there would have been had this change not been put in effect.aston wrote:
Further touching on Garven's points (quoting)The modder now has to explain why the map isn’t up to standards, and the mapper is stuck with a the decision of remapping, essentially wiping out all the suggestions of previous modders, or leaving it the same and hoping they will luck out with more lenient upper-level modders. If the remap does occur, this leaves responsibility in the hands of the modder who made the suggestion to help guide the mapper and let them grow. This is a significant investment of time and requires a lot of patience depending on how the mapper interprets the advice given. Of course this means less time modding other map sets, and is another reason for the bottleneck of beatmaps in the bubble list. What little time the moderators in management have to offer towards modding tends to be focused towards the easier-to-mod maps since they won’t require as much time to take care of.I'd like to point out where he says that management will offer modding towards easier-to-mod maps, pointing a lack of effort on the part of management. I'm not blaming them, please don't misunderstand.
They get half-assed mods quickly and just call random MATs/BATs so the map gets ranked quickly.What is a "half-assed" mod, who is to blame for these "half-assed" mods?
Neither; but in today's case? Number 2 would be taken as the "better" solution, as time has passed. I'm essentially saying that more time should be given (but a limit shouldn't be placed, as that's counter productive).You say neither, but why? What is it that has to happen to this map before it can get ranked? Is it additional mods? Is it these special "quality mods"? Or is it just more time for other people to take a look at it and say "wow nice map, star!"?
Normal people can't get 2 MAT and 2 BAT mods within 3 days. So it's speedranked.Gabi wrote:
Lets get back to this line for a second, i want to hear peoples opinion on this.dkun wrote:
Essentially... Getting a map "speedranked" accelerates or even skips over the modding process, hindering the quality of ranked maps. It skips over what makes a map "polished", or what makes it "good". This is something that shouldn't be rushed, or avoided to any extent.
1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?
2. A map that has been in pending for 4 months, has 7 mods (4 normal, 3 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this one also go through the modding process and is ready for rank?
Which case is most eligible for rank?
For example. A BAT makes a mod4mod queue, and the first three people to mod his map will get a mod back. People will make a rushed, quickly done mod (but still worth kudosu, at least in the current system) that doesn't even look to improve the quality of the map, just matters for getting an easy BAT mod.Gabi wrote:
@BDThey get half-assed mods quickly and just call random MATs/BATs so the map gets ranked quickly.What is a "half-assed" mod, who is to blame for these "half-assed" mods?
I'm not going to say that it's a good idea that I have in mind at the moment: mods still affect SP just like how it's currently working. However SP gained from mods is weighed from how long the map has been sitting in Pending. Example, there are two maps sitting in Pending, map A and B. Both maps have the same SP at the moment, let's just say +6 SP. However, map A has been sitting in Pending for 1 month while map B only for less than a week. From this point, map A will increase its SP by +2 from each mod it receives, compared to map B which only increases its SP by +1.lolcubes wrote:
Thoughts like this are okay, however they are very vague and without a solution. Best way to change something is when you aren't satisfied with something, provide an alternative which you find satisfying. Just keep in mind that you need to look at it objectively and with the bigger picture, in addition to it's potential flaws, etc.Frizz925 wrote:
I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.
maybe in a perfect worldGladiOol wrote:
im just here to say that i have no problem with speedranking if you have made a good map.
good map > quick rank > everybody happy, except bad mappers who whine about how other modders don't map their crappy map.
So if it's a BATs fault and everyone knows it, why doesn't anyone take a stand against it in the BAT? You say that this certain BAT doesn't care to improve the quality of their maps, well it doesn't seem like anyone else in the BAT cares about improving quality of the actual BAT. To me it feels like there is absolutely no discipline at all in the BAT. There are so many discussions, but in the end no one really cares or does anything about it.Blue Dragon wrote:
For example. A BAT makes a mod4mod queue, and the first three people to mod his map will get a mod back. People will make a rushed, quickly done mod (but still worth kudosu, at least in the current system) that doesn't even look to improve the quality of the map, just matters for getting an easy BAT mod.
The ones to be blamed are, in this case, the BAT, who is just looking for a quick way to get his maps ranked, without caring about quality (doesn't care if mods are good to improve the map or not, just uses them as a way to get it ranked faster) and the modders, who are doing anything to get an easy BAT mod.
and that's where the SP system is doing wrong. I have been against the entire system since the start, because you now have to actively search for mods. People who are more introvert, not willing to actively search or whatever are now simply screwed. The ones with the biggest mouth and willing to do anything for their bad map to get ranked, will get it ranked. The ones with the most awesome maps but who don't get mods, are fucked. This seems a bit silly to me. You shouldn't judge a map by it's mapper, but by the map itself.Blue Dragon wrote:
maybe in a perfect worldGladiOol wrote:
im just here to say that i have no problem with speedranking if you have made a good map.
good map > quick rank > everybody happy, except bad mappers who whine about how other modders don't map their crappy map.
actual system
bad map > find a way for people to mod it easily (usually mod4mods) > still gets ranked
good map > no one is interested in anything mapper can offer back (e.g. mapper isn't a very good modder, or doesn't have time to open mod queues) > map gets ignored
those statements hold so much truth. but sadly, it's a perfect world idea, and it won't come to this, since people always will look at the mappers name, the friends that the mapper has, heck, even gender, age, looks or just plain osu!-skill.GladiOol wrote:
You shouldn't judge a map by it's mapper, but by the map itself.
Judge a map by the talent of the mapper, not the ambition he/she has to get it ranked.
I say neither because the overall quality of mods is dropping. Please, don't get me wrong when I say this, because I fully do know the situation you listed, with experienced mappers having the problem of making good maps. This is the bottleneck of the issue, and this is the "flawless" part of the arguement that others have stated here.Gabi wrote:
@DkunNeither; but in today's case? Number 2 would be taken as the "better" solution, as time has passed. I'm essentially saying that more time should be given (but a limit shouldn't be placed, as that's counter productive).You say neither, but why? What is it that has to happen to this map before it can get ranked? Is it additional mods? Is it these special "quality mods"? Or is it just more time for other people to take a look at it and say "wow nice map, star!"?
Experienced mappers have this retarded problem when they make good maps and they ask a BAT to mod their map, the BAT says "get more mods". When they ask people to mod their map, the modders reply with "Your map is flawless, couldn't find anything wrong". What do these mappers do at this point? they are sort of stuck at option 2 (exclude the mod count) which i mentioned in my earlier post, and according to your view on it, these people will never be qualified to have their maps ranked.
I know mappers that have deliberately put silly mistakes on their maps just to get some serious "quality" mods on their maps in order for the BATs to see this and then further be able to get a mod from the BAT.
The entire reason of this post explains this, and how the problem isn't just this. Of course, I have spoken my mind in public channels about starting with removing said people, but others don't seem to share my same mindset.Gabi wrote:
So if it's a BATs fault and everyone knows it, why doesn't anyone take a stand against it in the BAT? You say that this certain BAT doesn't care to improve the quality of their maps, well it doesn't seem like anyone else in the BAT cares about improving quality of the actual BAT. To me it feels like there is absolutely no discipline at all in the BAT. There are so many discussions, but in the end no one really cares or does anything about it.Blue Dragon wrote:
For example. A BAT makes a mod4mod queue, and the first three people to mod his map will get a mod back. People will make a rushed, quickly done mod (but still worth kudosu, at least in the current system) that doesn't even look to improve the quality of the map, just matters for getting an easy BAT mod.
The ones to be blamed are, in this case, the BAT, who is just looking for a quick way to get his maps ranked, without caring about quality (doesn't care if mods are good to improve the map or not, just uses them as a way to get it ranked faster) and the modders, who are doing anything to get an easy BAT mod.
Also lets face it, it's mostly BAT/MAT's (And people who knows them really well) that get their maps speed ranked, because most normal members don't have much to offer in a normal mod4mod.
On the flip side, you can really blame the mapper. As I stated earlier in this thread...those wrote:
However, you can't really blame the mapper. The staff and moderation teams are the ones in greater power, so of course we take a lot of the blame. But who are we to talk about speed ranking (or any other problems, for that matter) when we each have a voice in the community ourselves? See a bad bubbled map? Mod it and stop it from being ranked. Notice a map that can be made better? Post your suggestions. This is what you can do to take a map through the modding process, whether it be a week or a year (though, ranking decisions are internal so the BAT clearly has a problem on their own, but I'm not too sure that's really up for public discussion).
The problem, then, as you perceive, is the mapper pressing on certain XAT members to bubble and rank the map, which is actually an internal problem, since the BAT has the final decision on map ranking.dkun wrote:
On the flip side, you can really blame the mapper.
(which I have stated in the OP, and which mm201 has verified somewhere in the pages shortly after.)those wrote:
The problem, then, as you perceive, is the mapper pressing on certain XAT members to bubble and rank the map, which is actually an internal problem, since the BAT has the final decision on map ranking.dkun wrote:
On the flip side, you can really blame the mapper.
Well this is bullshit \:D/.D33d wrote:
In essence, the ability to promote a map is a key asset to anybody who wants to get anywhere. It's effectively enterprise. If a mapper cares enough getting a map ranked, then they will do whatever they can in order to prove that they're worth even a modicum of attention. This could be as simple as talking in chats regularly. If the only ones who complain about speedranks are those who make crap maps, then those who complain about not getting any attention have crap social skills.
yes, and this is bullshit. /o/ it means ambition > talent. while it should be talent > ambition.kriers wrote:
No, D33d is not saying social skills gives you a privilege over others. He's simply saying that socializing and knowing key people is an effective way to get a map into the process of ranking.
Indeed. In my opinion, mapping is like drawing. You can have perfect knowledge about how to draw a face, with the perfect proportions and everything, but maybe you don't know how to make that face look "expresive", "human" or you can't make the face transmit something (an "emotion") to the viewer. Drawing with the perfect proportions and stuff maybe would be considered as "flawless", and this is just like knowing the rankable stuff and applying it! But, I don't like to see a boring face just like others in a drawing, I want it to be special, to have special effects, to have emotions and feelings. This is the part of mapping that a lot of mappers seem to be missing over time - and this is why I found mapping comparable to drawing. Oh and also, it's way easier to mass-produce tons of "flawless" maps that follow the ranking criteria.. than trying to make something special. That's why I'll quote this again:Gcode wrote:
Some people just like to treat maps more like a number (MY #199 RANKED BEATMAP!!11), rather than a sort of art, or even like a construction.
This is the way some people perceive/want mapping be
While some want to map like this, and take their time making it pretty and polished :
Quantity over Quality is what speedranking is. Although as Mr.Color said, sometimes, very rarely, is a map perfect enough to warrant it.
Gcode wrote:
Quantity over Quality is what speedranking is. Although as Mr.Color said, sometimes, very rarely, is a map perfect enough to warrant it.
Even in the real world, ambition > talent.GladiOol wrote:
yes, and this is bullshit. /o/ it means ambition > talent. while it should be talent > ambition.kriers wrote:
No, D33d is not saying social skills gives you a privilege over others. He's simply saying that socializing and knowing key people is an effective way to get a map into the process of ranking.
those wrote:
14:52 <awpkun> don't strive for a ranked map, strive for the best damn map possible
This quote makes me wanna slap somebody every time because it has no relation to this context.those wrote:
14:52 <awpkun> don't strive for a ranked map, strive for the best damn map possible
The world is stupid yes. And no, you shouldn't dig. Before the SP system there was absolutely no system. This worked better than the SP system. I could just upload my map and with bumping or sometimes asking around I could get mods. Now I have to mod4mod, make guest diffs and suck 16 dicks to get 8 SP and a bubble and then to never be able to get a BAT and rank my map because they all hate me.kriers wrote:
Even in the real world, ambition > talent.GladiOol wrote:
yes, and this is bullshit. /o/ it means ambition > talent. while it should be talent > ambition.
I hope you don't expect us to go out and DIG for people with talent. They have to talk to people and make themselves known, or else nobody will know how awesome they might be.
If people hadn't needed to do all this and follow the current system, there would be an overflow of mappers getting their maps ranked compared to now. The process of ranking could also be damaged and we would likely get cases of extreme speed-ranking and bad beatmaps.GladiOol wrote:
The world is stupid yes. And no, you shouldn't dig. Before the SP system there was absolutely no system. This worked better than the SP system. I could just upload my map and with bumping or sometimes asking around I could get mods. Now I have to mod4mod, make guest diffs and suck 16 dicks to get 8 SP and a bubble and then to never be able to get a BAT and rank my map because they all hate me.
You simply have to do TOO much to get a map ranked now.
Exactly, it seems that the more ranked maps you get, the faster is the ranking proccess on your next maps. This makes VERY hard to get your first map ranked, which is very unatractive for begginner mappers, and I think we will end up having each time less new mappers.Dangaard wrote:
Taking the backdoor to VIP area is not fair.
If I may diverge a bit off the point of the topic, it's only natural that such a developed community requires a lot more effort in order to stand out. One cannot expected to be waited on, hand and foot, just because a select few get away with murder. I find SP to be fairly irrelevant anyway, because a popular mapper's maps are going to be whored out enough that they'll get attention that defies their priority.GladiOol wrote:
The world is stupid yes. And no, you shouldn't dig. Before the SP system there was absolutely no system. This worked better than the SP system. I could just upload my map and with bumping or sometimes asking around I could get mods. Now I have to mod4mod, make guest diffs and suck 16 dicks to get 8 SP and a bubble and then to never be able to get a BAT and rank my map because they all hate me.kriers wrote:
Even in the real world, ambition > talent.
I hope you don't expect us to go out and DIG for people with talent. They have to talk to people and make themselves known, or else nobody will know how awesome they might be.
You simply have to do TOO much to get a map ranked now.
Agreed, but that is realistic. I won't say those names but u know who:>Dangaard wrote:
The problem about the recent speedrank cases is not the quality of the map itself (ok, actually one of them was un- and reranked), but it's the way of sneaking its way to the rank while other pending maps with more SP are at least on a similar quality level. Maps are supposed to be modded and ranked based on the SP, in a community of this scale some sort of system is necessary.
Apparently we cannot do priority modding 100% of the time, but seeing this sort of exception happen to the same people all the time cannot be considered as coincidence. While a "speedrank" of one map doesn't really hurt anyone and is rather a matter of principle, it's different when these cases accumulate. A system like this can't work if people always get weak to their friends' mod requests or think their friends' map is ready for ranking and they have to take actions.
Once again: The quality isn't the main problem here! Good maps should always be ranked as soon as possible, but remember that we have a public queue aka priority system. Taking the backdoor to VIP area is not fair.
There are people who don't map things just to get them ranked, but their map just don't get ranked.Nyquill wrote:
I think its a problem in itself that people map things just to get them ranked? Am I wrong?
Yes. But for the time being, there are still people who put community first.Nyquill wrote:
I think its a problem in itself that people map things just to get them ranked? Am I wrong?
Nice choice of words. iLold (for those who cannot read, this literally translates to 'engage in homosexual acts').[CSGA]Ar3sgice wrote:
搞基
Fundamentally, it's a matter of principle. If a map is ranked within a week, then it's invariably going to receive a less diverse array of opinions and it isn't really fair that potential modders aren't given the time to do so. Furthermore, if there are controversial issues with a map, then it's probably better to wait for it to have more input. I think that there was an Andrea map, which used AR9 and several people took issue with it. However, it was pushed out of the door before people could complain about it (I think?).LKs wrote:
I really hope someone who concern the issue the most could leave some of their time and go think how to make good maps
It's ironical that those most outstanding mappers never mind speedrank as much as those who pay their 90% time on "discussing" important things, researching and explaining every words of sentences from some powerful people who have been inactive on mapping for a long time
oh the ironyLKs wrote:
I really hope someone who concern the issue the most could leave some of their time and go think how to make good maps
It's ironical that those most outstanding mappers never mind speedrank as much as those who pay their 90% time on "discussing" important things, researching and explaining every words of sentences from some powerful people who have been inactive on mapping for a long time
I don't mean to point fingers myself, but it doesn't help if we're oblivious to the obvious. I stated this then, and I'll state this again. An effective measure to start to combat the issue is to remove the most prominent issue at hand, is it not?Inamaru wrote:
First of all, try to understand i'm not trying to make drama or something like that, but it's just what i'm thinking of this.
If (for various reason) you don't like what i wrote feel free to insult me in pm, thank you.
This is just my opinion
So i'm going straight to the point
To my eyes, i don't have any kind of problem with speedrank, because if this happened sometimes just with random people, well good, lucky boy/girl, enjoy your map ranked and that's all. (and in case there's was an unrank well fuck, nevermind, try to be more careful next time)
BUT there's someone who still abusing of this (for 2 years) i don't care if he's the one who pray others BATs/MATs to get ranked his maps or it's just because he's so popular or something like that (generally 85% of his maps are ranked in 1/2 weeks? right?).
If those cases never happened, probably this topic/bad mood would have never started
And: if you're trying to say "he's the best BAT of the year/ he's the best BAT who works in this team (a lot of maps ranked)"
whoa i never received something for doing my "job" here.
Probably I've only receive the gratitude/thankfullness of users, and that's the best thing I can have. (Of course someone will hate me but i don't care)
EDIT:
I'm sure there are some similiar cases probably, but right now i'm just putting the "most important".
Honestly I don't care whos map will be unranked after a speedrank. Unrank is unrank.Inamaru wrote:
To my eyes, i don't have any kind of problem with speedrank, because if this happened sometimes just with random people, well good, lucky boy/girl, enjoy your map ranked and that's all. (and in case there's was an unrank well fuck, nevermind, try to be more careful next time)
BUT there's someone who still abusing of this (for 2 years) i don't care if he's the one who pray others BATs/MATs to get ranked his maps or it's just because he's so popular or something like that (generally 85% of his maps are ranked in 1/2 weeks? right?).
If those cases never happened, probably this topic/bad mood would have never started
A different view of the real problem from mine (I had said it was a problem of modding quality), but one that I can agree with. How do we stop mappers from going through the ranking process quicker than others?Dangaard wrote:
Taking the backdoor to VIP area is not fair.
Well, the quality of the mod is up for you to decide, but I think you should at least reply to every mod and say what you did and didn't change, and if not, why. And maybe give more criticism of the mod, to help the modder out as well.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
Silynn had a good idea, but the problem is that the quality of mod is somewhat subjective, for example, I saw my nazi stuff being followed more than non-nazi stuff many times and even some BATs/MATs being pointy to make you use the same tick rate in all diffs, or making joke of the mapper saying "it's not a karaoke", or even pointing out blue ticks in Normals as Unrankable stuff.
Ah, I'm glad this finally showed up. As I said before in this thread, there are people who are able to speak both English and their native language in pretty much every language here. They can help mappers who aren't very good at English. I will concede that, if your native language doesn't have any similarities with English (which is why learning English for French and German people is easy), it's a pretty tough language to handle. However, even if you write something like "my English is poor" in your signature, you're acknowledging that your level isn't good enough; it's also up to you to improve it. This is an English-speaking community after all, and we are ready to make efforts, but they have to come from both sides.Frostmourne wrote:
not everyone can explain the mod in documentary way. At least, I'm not native English speaker and I know my English is bad.
But there are still some of mappers that are completely unable to reply what they want to reply in English. Seriously, English is hard