Canadia supports dkun!!!

Kitsunemimi wrote:

you may say the problem at hand may be caused by bad ranks, when frankly, it wouldn't be a bad rank in the first place had enough people modded the map if they were given more time.

Kinda this.

I don't really care about speedranking as long as the map is stay ranked after be ranked. But nowadays we saw so many speedranks following with de-rank soon after it became ranked. This is just not good.
Instead of time we count the amount of mods what the map is got. Basically this way, the map needs (example) 30 mod before it will become ranked. Of course, someone will get this amount in a few days, but at least, the map is already good enough.
I hope I was able to wrote this in an understandable way.

mm201 wrote:

Mr Color wrote:

A mod that makes the mapper change stuff in his map (a disregarded mod isn't a mod since nothing came out of it)

I couldn't disagree more. If the mapper needs to make changes for it to count, it becomes a game of roulette for the modder since they have no way of knowing if the mapper applies their changes or not. It puts the mapper on a high pedestal, establishing their personal opinions as law regarding whether a mod is good or bad. Furthermore, this encourages mappers to avoid maps from mappers who are known to have inflated egos and never accept any mods. These maps, usually from famous mappers, end up getting ranked with even fewer mods than they already have.
There's a reason why BATs are allowed to grant kudosu rather than just the mapper.

I actually partly agree with you on this, but I'd rather see something like this: When a XAT comes to check out a map, he should also check out the mods it has received, and check what has been fixed and what hasn't. If a normally good mod has been completely disregarded by the mapper, he would be able to deny the SP gained by the mod without revoking the modder's well-deserved kd. Unfortunately, that would require a lot of work from the XATs. We don't really want that.

mm201 wrote:

Furthermore, this encourages mappers to avoid maps from mappers who are known to have inflated egos and never accept any mods. These maps, usually from famous mappers, end up getting ranked with even fewer mods than they already have.

See, that's something I disagree with. Instead of getting the map ranked with fewer mods, the map should be stuck in its ranking process until the mapper accepts to give in and eventually apply changes pointed out by the mods. This would prompt mappers with too much pride to learn some modesty, also.

maybe we should make the rankingprocess anonymously, so you don't see who mapped what, so nobody cares for big names, and people like andrea start again actually caring about quality, and modders mod maps based on quality and not on names.

well, at least this would e the utopian answer the problem.

but for the start, it would really help if people would stop with the elitism and don't just mod maps from some special people.

As mm201 said, this is an issue with bad ranks, not speed ranks.

I will never repeat this enough, but the problems comes from the general modding level. Yes, many MATs and BATs are concerned. Mods are bad. No one bothers to point out what could be improved. They only point out what could be unranked.

No attention whatsoever is given to quality. Yes, I know, this speech again. Do you need any more proof of this ? And before you go "find us a solution", I had a "mod queue" in which I told people what I think could be improved in their mod posts. Unfortunately, it was very quickly forgotten. We need to make mappers understand that a rank is a consequence of making a good map, while most seem to think that having a good map is a consequence of having a map ranked.

So, what solutions ? Obviously, changing people's mindsets is impossible, especially when some mappers keep getting bad maps (in many ways) ranked and showing the wrong example. Trying to set good examples is impossible either, for the same reason.

The only solution I can think of would be to make the overall modding quality greater.

mm201 wrote:

The problem you're describing has nothing at all to do with fast ranks, rather, it has everything to do with bad ranks.. If a map needs to be unranked, it's because of something important that the ranking BAT ought to have caught before ranking it in the first place. If anything, there should be more discipline towards the BATs involved in bad ranks.

dkun wrote:

Let's put this all in retrospect. You need two people to rank a map. Three for an approval. (1 MAT/BAT, or 1 MAT/2 BAT) Where does the biggest problem lie in all of this? The BAT team as a whole. Change needs to come from within the BAT to address this issue, as it's not just one mapper's fault, or one BAT's fault. This is a community problem as it stands, and needs to be solved by those in power for the better sake of the community.

(I still see a problem in this, don't you? It exists. You just explained a variation of it.)

To be frank, this problem wouldn't exist if the people in question would submit quality, not quantity. Isn't that the standard we uphold for future maps? We slowly improve over time to better ourselves as players, mappers, and modders. The standards (which have quite drastically changed over time) do show, but I believe that this is a step backwards (since it's an on-going issue) and nothing is still being done.

The first step of fixing a problem is recognizing it exists.
A lot of bad ranks seem to come from speed ranks, no? Slowing down the process seems like the obvious choice in what we do here.
A personal take on fixing this problem is re-thinking who is on the team that represents this entire community. I'm not pointing fingers, of course.

In the long term solution, Shiro has the right mindset...

Shiro wrote:

I will never repeat this enough, but the problems comes from the general modding level. Yes, many MATs and BATs are concerned. Mods are bad. No one bothers to point out what could be improved. They only point out what could be unranked.

From the general modding level, true. But how does one mod a map when you go to sleep the night before, and when you wake up, the map is already ranked? I try to mod with quality in mind; with the standard we do hold to date. But how are people like myself supposed to mod when said maps are sped to the ranked status?

Shiro wrote:

No attention whatsoever is given to quality. Yes, I know, this speech again. Do you need any more proof of this ? And before you go "find us a solution", I had a "mod queue" in which I told people what I think could be improved in their mod posts. Unfortunately, it was very quickly forgotten. We need to make mappers understand that a rank is a consequence of making a good map, while most seem to think that having a good map is a consequence of having a map ranked.

This is yet another piece of truth. The "quality" of mods is going down the drain.

Shiro wrote:

So, what solutions ? Obviously, changing people's mindsets is impossible, especially when some mappers keep getting bad maps (in many ways) ranked and showing the wrong example. Trying to set good examples is impossible either, for the same reason.

The only solution I can think of would be to make the overall modding quality greater.

This is perfect for a long-term solution; redefining what a "mod" actually is. Re-thinking what counts as kudosu.

If only people would understand that you're supposed to give a Kudosu only if the mod helps, not just because someone made the effort to mod.

thank you lewa for summing up in one line what I made an entire paragraph about

I definitely agree that speedranking shouldn't happen so often, especially if the modding is unsubstantial. I think that the problem with the mods themselves is that many people are too afraid to point out suggestions and become too offended when most/all of their points are denied. Of course, mappers don't always help by being obnoxious/ignorant, so when modders are being discouraged by a bad attitude, it only takes a few people to say that they like the map and then the map could be ranked because there is nothing "unrankable."

I think that the amount of mods should be an issue here and, even if there are a lot of mods, I believe that a map should still be given time to receive more. This is a big community and there is a ridiculous amount of perspectives on what makes a map good. For example, if a map is ranked after receiving perhaps a page of mods and everybody is fine with it using approach rate 9, plenty of people could notice the map after it's ranked and consider AR9 to be abusive and forcing difficulty. There are many things like that which I think warrant as many opinions as possible before a map is ranked.

DEEDIT: Elaborating on the disadvantages of speedranking, it isn't fair to modders if they aren't given the time to pull together a quality mod or to notice the map at all. Just because a map has a few mods and a few people are happy with the map, it does not imply that nobody else will mod the map. I mod rarely, but I see a lot of maps which I'd like to mod, but I want to play the map many times before I even think about starting a mod. While I'm so tardy that I'd probably miss out even if a map isn't speedranked, my huge timescales can be toned down in the perspective of somebody who sees a map, wants to mod it and then is thoroughly miffed when it's ranked too quickly for them to touch it.

Tanzklaue wrote:

and people like andrea start again actually caring about quality, and modders mod maps based on quality and not on names.

but for the start, it would really help if people would stop with the elitism and don't just mod maps from some special people.

THIS. It seems that people just uses 50% symmetry and half of the map is copypasted from the first kiai, meaning the map has... 25% originality wtf? I mean.. they don't seem to map for people to enjoy or try to improve their style or anything.. just get ranked maps without any effort.. I really really really hate those maps and mappers too.

Also, I'll quote what yyy said on a map:

yeahyeahyeahhh wrote:

Just disappointed this coming out of you. From a mapper on his 158th map I'd expect more quality. Guess quantity is of the importance here.

Indeed, it seems that the quantity is what matters nowadays... IMO it would be much better if mappers just concern about the quality c:

Please refrain from pointing at other mappers unless it's from an objective-sided point of view. We're here to discuss how to solve the problem, not to point fingers are who's guilty of doing this.

Tanzklaue wrote:

maybe we should make the rankingprocess anonymously, so you don't see who mapped what, so nobody cares for big names, and people like andrea start again actually caring about quality, and modders mod maps based on quality and not on names.

well, at least this would e the utopian answer the problem.

but for the start, it would really help if people would stop with the elitism and don't just mod maps from some special people.

fwiw, I'll mod whatever you throw at me.

dkun wrote:

Please refrain from pointing at other mappers unless it's from an objective-sided point of view. We're here to discuss how to solve the problem, not to point fingers are who's guilty of doing this.

I (and hopefully other BATs) will be nuking posts that don't follow this simple rule. This is supposed to a constructive debate, not a gunfight.

My problem with modern modding is the plague of hitsound-focused modders.

For crying out loud, it's one thing to include hitsounds in your mods (which is a good thing BTW) and another thing for your mods to consistently be almost entirely hitsounds. I feel that this is part of the problem, actually; when a very high percentage of modders are incapable of modding the map itself and get by by looking at hitsounds then it is hard to get quality mods for the stuff that actually causes maps to get unranked.

Blue Dragon wrote:

Can we please get rid of the mod4mod BAT/MAT queues? People post in there and make half-assed mods to the BAT/MAT maps just to get an easy bubble/ranks. Andrea's maps have tons of that and this is how he gets so many badly done mods in such a short amount of time.

This post needs more attention.

It's like, "mod my map if you want me to do my job"

My thought to this is about to make a "minimum" of Mods which are neccessary. This should be NOT a fix rule, it should be suggested to be.
As first, it sounds bad, but I explain you how I think about this:

The modding progress contains points what should be changed and what could be changed. These are different points, and also that, Opinions and suggestions are different by most people. So having alot of Feedbacks and opinions will help the mapper to the map, it also could be that the mapper itself comes to ideas or to the things are wrong. This should be NOT abused that the friends of the mapper should permanently mod it. Because this is not the sense behind of it. I personally don't feel that a Map is ready after ten mods. I often see that people wishes a minimum of Mods are neccessary for a Mod, and this is great imo. Of course, CtB and Taiko Diffs are also meant to this.

Well, this idea is quite inaccurate at now, you may have more ideas to this.

Just a thought: What if only the oldest bubbled map is allowed to be ranked? (or highest SP.)

That would certainly cause a massive traffic jam of maps, imagine if a map is bubbled and the mapper is inactive for X days for Y reason?

akrolsmir wrote:

Just a thought: What if only the oldest bubbled map is allowed to be ranked? (or highest SP.)

The team is supposed to be "focused" on higher priority bubbles, but this is only a focus. And look how that turned out.

Mr Color wrote:

That would certainly cause a massive traffic jam of maps, imagine if a map is bubbled and the mapper is inactive for X days for Y reason?

Then a BAT has to mod the bubble and pop/rank accordingly, then move on to the next one.

Or, extend to oldest 3 maps or something.

dkun wrote:

The team is supposed to be "focused" on higher priority bubbles, but this is only a focus. And look how that turned out.

So implement a hard lock so that only the highest sp map can be ranked.

What if the map gets bubbled and suddenly the mapper's internet connection dies? Should we pop his bubble then? For unability to connect on osu!? That sounds kinda weird, to be honest.

By the way, this would encourage SP "abuse" even more.

akrolsmir wrote:

Then a BAT has to mod the bubble and pop/rank accordingly, then move on to the next one.

But in case, when the BAT rank it, it could be the possibility that it has to be unranked, because of something like Update Bug.
And when the creator cannot fix this, this will be problematic.

@Mr Color- It's up to the BATs, not the mapper, to proceed after the bubble.

@Stefan- Won't that happen anyways? I don't see how that's relevant...

Bad ranks and speedranks are certainly correlated. Statistically, a map that gets ranked before receiving enough mods gets ranked faster than a map that receives all the mods it needs.
What constitutes "enough mods" is different for every map, making it impossible to single out speed as the underlying problem.

mm201 wrote:

Bad ranks and speedranks are certainly correlated. Statistically, a map that gets ranked before receiving enough mods gets ranked faster than a map that receives all the mods it needs.
What constitutes "enough mods" is different for every map, making it impossible to single out speed as the underlying problem.

As speed is the most dominant factor in most of the "bad" ranks (at least I would say so), then wouldn't fixing this "issue" be on the road to success?

Or much rather, place a limiting factor of some sort -OR- put the team in question that's actually ranking said maps. Or hell, do both.

dkun wrote:

-OR- put the team in question that's actually ranking said maps.

Basically this. The problem is with BATs who don't really care about map quality.
(Speed limiting ranking does nothing to fix this.)

It says something that even the BATs know that there are BATs that are shitty at ranking and nothing is being done anyway.

Shiirn wrote:

It says something that even the BATs know that there are BATs that are shitty at ranking and nothing is being done anyway.

This is the blunt way at putting it. But what exactly is to be done with said people, mm201? I'm pretty sure internal affairs is set out to be set straight internally by the team, but it'd be nice if there was some kind of reassurance that some sort of action was being taken towards resolving this.

Mr Color wrote:

Here is a link to the osu!monthly #5 where KRZY discusses Speedranking. Needless to say, this didn't have any impact on the ranking process in general. This was made back in mid-2011.

Kinda touched people still remember/refer to these. I advise anyone on this thread who has yet to read this particular piece to do so.



What I bring to this topic is the matter of pinpointing the core issue of the problem. Speedranking is certainly a problem, but in my opinion, it is a side-effect of two bigger problems that are affecting osu! currently and have already been pointed out in this thread: a problem of global modding quality, and a problem of certain members of the MAT/BAT team not being competent enough and/or not having the right mindset for their jobs.

The specifics have already been discussed in the thread. I offer my solutions:

1. More strict disciplines for XATs with bad bubbles/ranks. What MM201 said really. This doesn't have to be done tomorrow but this has to be done eventually. I know a team exists to cover each other's weaknesses and collaborate for a better result, but sometimes the stick is more helpful than the carrot. Being an XAT is a great responsibility, and those in the XAT team that are committed enough should not mind receiving disciplinary actions due to their incompetence. Those who do mind should not be on the team. For the general community members, if this is ever to happen, it will be a painfully slow process, and patience and trust are necessary virtues for us to have for the team to get it figured out.

2. The improvement of global modding quality. There is no magic spell that will achieve this overnight. It has to begin by everyone on this thread who share the opinion that there is a problem going on upping their game. Take those extra 30 minutes when modding to cover every aspect of the mapset. Do not give okay mods--give excellent, ass-kicking mods. Don't be afraid to offer your opinion on the map--share how you would have done it, no mapping idea is superior over another. Make it an interactive process. Make it go both ways, not only from you to the mapper. Take the time to discuss with the mapper about disagreements in your modding--why did the mapper think your mod was unfit? Did you explain enough the reasoning behind your mods? These are time-consuming and requires commitment, but they are not rocket science either.


Reading this thread, I was surprised but could understand how many people think that speedranking really does not bother them as long as the map deserves it. It does bother them, however, when the map is unranked after it has been speedranked, just like it bothers the rest of us. That is why I figured the core of the problem was somewhere else, and tried to offer my opinion on how to go about solving the problem.



edit: Another thing to consider. If you want to mod one map and see two maps, one from a relatively competent and known mapper and the other from a new, below-average mapper, are you making the effort to mod the latter's map because that map needs your mod more than the former?

Give elite mappers the ability to rank their own maps. They're not retarded and they won't rank it before getting some suggestions/mods from players/other mappers. With that you save some time MATs/BATs spend modding some maps they can't even play/are even better than theirs. Plus you don't get Gold Dust and maps like that waiting for months till some random guy comes and rank it. If they abuse their power they can be removed from their position.

Remove the kudosu system and use another one, it's retarded and impulses fast shit mods.

Give MATs/BATs X chances to bubble/rank un-rankable maps. Let's say have 2 points to begin with, they get a point for every X correct bubbles they hand out, and of course they lose a point every fucking time they bubble a map that ends up getting un-ranked. 0 points = bye bye.

Problem is not speed-ranking but the fact some maps get ranked as fast as they get un-ranked, which is pathetic. And it's even worse when epic maps take ages to get ranked/never do. I'd seriously give privileges to those mappers who have shown to be able to map really well without 999 mods. Of course, since they have years here and have mapped a lot, seriously you can help out people like galvenize or val0108 with a little mod, but dude lol I've played many of their maps just out of the oven even before they got any mods and they are still better than 95% of the ranked maps we get every week. It is true they get some mods but the changes they get are minimum, and if they are noticeable I think those mappers are smart enough to figure that out after watching a free test plays like they always do.

Off-topic shit but I wanted to post that.

tl;dr: Crap. Make BATs/MATs get fired if they screw up too much/make their team look pathetic. Stop being so elitist, MATs/BATs are not mapping geniuses and aren't even that good@mapping when compared to some of the best mappers you got around. (Since most of them don't even play the game/suck and can't play most maps)

That sounds far too bloody minded. Just because somebody was given the title, it doesn't mean that they're perfect. I could pick apart a Lilac or m980 map for various reasons, whether it's for awkward jumps, bad hitsounds or bad presentation/too much repetition and blandness. Being so harsh towards the staff would also be unproductive, because some MATs are/were already too scared to bubble a map. Newer additions also need a fair crack of the whip.

Your point about Galvenize and val maps is also moot, because I don't really like them and I'm sure that a lot of others would share my sentiment. I think that plenty of RJ maps would be ready for ranking, but I'd still suggest many things. It's not a matter of a map being rankable nor standing out from the rest--it's about how much a map can be improved before it makes the cut. People need to be given a chance to facilitate this, regardless of how much some people like a map.

I think that KRZY shares my sentiments, especially in regards to having the patience for better practices to be adopted. We're a huge community, so getting everybody to agree on the best approach will be impossible. However, getting the word out that people should make an effort shouldn't be hard and it is not unreasonable to ask people to suggest subjective and stylistic changes. For a start, the stigma of "nazi modding" needs to go, because picky things are what makes a bland map much, much better. Given the amount of maps on this system, it should take a lot of effort to make a map stand out. At the very least, if a map isn't spectacular, then it should be damn tight and have its distinct flair.

I think the speed of the ranking proccess is inversely proportional to the effort the mapper made on his/her map...

Edit: and don't get me wrong, I mean the effort they made in the MAPPING proccess.

Wishy22 wrote:

Give elite mappers the ability to rank their own maps. They're not retarded and they won't rank it before getting some suggestions/mods from players/other mappers. With that you save some time MATs/BATs spend modding some maps they can't even play/are even better than theirs. Plus you don't get Gold Dust and maps like that waiting for months till some random guy comes and rank it. If they abuse their power they can be removed from their position.

nobody will ever be able to rank their own maps. even in the new proposed system, it requires community consensus and always will require consensus of some form.

Wishy22 wrote:

Remove the kudosu system and use another one, it's retarded and impulses fast shit mods.

care to elaborate? this is vague.

Wishy22 wrote:

Give MATs/BATs X chances to bubble/rank un-rankable maps. Let's say have 2 points to begin with, they get a point for every X correct bubbles they hand out, and of course they lose a point every fucking time they bubble a map that ends up getting un-ranked. 0 points = bye bye.

and then what? they are removed from the team once reaching 0 points? all this will do is cause people to not look at maps for fear of reprisal, meaning the entire system will collapse in on itself. smart suggestion.

Wishy22 wrote:

Problem is not speed-ranking but the fact some maps get ranked as fast as they get un-ranked, which is pathetic. And it's even worse when epic maps take ages to get ranked/never do. I'd seriously give privileges to those mappers who have shown to be able to map really well without 999 mods. Of course, since they have years here and have mapped a lot, seriously you can help out people like galvenize or val0108 with a little mod, but dude lol I've played many of their maps just out of the oven even before they got any mods and they are still better than 95% of the ranked maps we get every week. It is true they get some mods but the changes they get are minimum, and if they are noticeable I think those mappers are smart enough to figure that out after watching a free test plays like they always do.

credence is likely already given to "proven" mappers by some members of the team already.. others call it "speedranking". see the problem here?

Wishy22 wrote:

tl;dr: Crap. Make BATs/MATs get fired if they screw up too much/make their team look pathetic. Stop being so elitist, MATs/BATs are not mapping geniuses and aren't even that good@mapping when compared to some of the best mappers you got around. (Since most of them don't even play the game/suck and can't play most maps)

there has always been a profound difference between a good mapper and a good modder - the two are not always mutually exclusive. a fantastic modder may be a terrible mapper, and vice versa. it is also exceptionally difficult to retain interest in actively playing a game where you are spending 80% of your time for said game on working for other people's projects for practically no benefit other than the occasional "thanks". what you are proposing in essence is that we begin to treat this position like people actually receive any form of benefit for helping out. the moment we start excessively reprimanding people for mistakes is the moment this team begins to fall apart, and practically anybody in the staff team at the moment is aware of this.

while i can understand your frustrations about the system, i think that you are looking towards the wrong part of the system to attempt to fix what is wrong. being more strict with the BAT/MAT will not solve anything, only cause more issues. the system needs to be fundamentally changed at the most basic level, which it will be, provided peppy ever gets around to implementing the new ranking system over all the other thousands of bugs and feature requests.

Ephemeral wrote:

nobody will ever be able to rank their own maps. even in the new proposed system, it requires community consensus and always will require consensus of some form.

Most "best" mappers don't really need mods, and they search for approval In-Game, by asking for test plays/little mods from players, since the best way to mod a map and find it's errors is TO PLAY THEM. As I said many times I got to play maps even before they got submitted/just after they did, and guess what, they got ranked months after and the map was pretty much the same, of course, you can't really go around telling very experienced mappers what to change in their maps, unless you find some critical mistake, which would be really rare.

care to elaborate? this is vague.

Way too easy to abuse, and a good reason to speed-mod/do shit mods everywhere just to get kudosu. You could say this incentives people to mod maps to get kudosu, I think it just makes them do bad and fast mods. Different points of view I guess.

Then again you could ask your friends to give you some kudosu, spam your own map with kudosu, etc. Having 999 kudosu on your map does not mean it is good, liked, popular, anything, it just means some players with kudosu are willing to spend it on that map for whatever reason. Some little changes like being able to give one kudosu per player per map AT MOST (like, even if I have 4000 to hand out, I'd only be able to give each map one) could be good.

and then what? they are removed from the team once reaching 0 points? all this will do is cause people to not look at maps for fear of reprisal, meaning the entire system will collapse in on itself. smart suggestion.

If you get to be a MAT/BAT you shouldn't be worried about that, just do your job wisely and carefully and you won't have any problem. What you say is a possibility, but if you made it to that position and yet you're as good as any random modder/mapper/player then something's wrong. Being a MAT/BAT should mean that you're over the average so you can give better mods, also meaning your judgement is good enough to decide that a map should be ranked. If someone can get to that position without those minimum condition, then even the bases are wrong.

Remember you will also win points if you bubble a map which gets ranked and DOES NOT get un-ranked. Unless you're a lazy ass that just goes and bubble some random map once every three months because it's your friends map and you barely look at it, then you're fucked.

If you think it that way, this is even kind of useless since it would be REALLY rare and sad that any MAT/BAT reached a point where he would lose his position by repeating the same mistake 2/3 times.

credence is likely already given to "proven" mappers by some members of the team already.. others call it "speedranking". see the problem here?

there has always been a profound difference between a good mapper and a good modder - the two are not always mutually exclusive. a fantastic modder may be a terrible mapper, and vice versa. it is also exceptionally difficult to retain interest in actively playing a game where you are spending 80% of your time for said game on working for other people's projects for practically no benefit other than the occasional "thanks". what you are proposing in essence is that we begin to treat this position like people actually receive any form of benefit for helping out. the moment we start excessively reprimanding people for mistakes is the moment this team begins to fall apart, and practically anybody in the staff team at the moment is aware of this.

while i can understand your frustrations about the system, i think that you are looking towards the wrong part of the system to attempt to fix what is wrong. being more strict with the BAT/MAT will not solve anything, only cause more issues. the system needs to be fundamentally changed at the most basic level, which it will be, provided peppy ever gets around to implementing the new ranking system over all the other thousands of bugs and feature requests.

As I said speed ranking is fine.

Even when I agree with everything you've said in this last quote, I'd rather have 3 active BATs/MATs that actually want to do their "jobs", than 500 BATs, 400 MATs that just go mod/rank their friends maps, or just AFK for years. I personally think mappers ENJOY mapping. I just made one map and dude I enjoyed doing it, getting mods and stuff, I even like to play it! If you're looking for some benefit by doing something you don't like IN A GAME where the maximum profit you can get is to have fun, then dude you're really screwed, no offense.

This is a game and the main reason I think people is here is because they like it. It's fun to play, to map, for some people it's fun to mod, etc. I do understand the system flaws come from the most basic level, but I have no idea about what or how to change that so I'd better talk about the actual one (also, I'm kind of sure there are many ideas of what to do about this and that they're gonna be applied in some near/not so near future).

Maps stand out because of their mappers... val0108 can just go make any random map that's playable for most people + popular song and it will automatically stand out, same with La Cataline, or any other skilled mapper. It's really hard and rare for a map to stand out when it got mapped by some new guy. I rarely play new stuff nowadays, but when I did every damn map that made me say "wow, nice", was from a well known mapper, every, fucking, time.

Anyways, I'm kind of sure my arguments are based on what I consider "a good map" and "good mapping", since I think that ANY map that's fun, readable, flows with the music and "looks nice" could be ranked, while others may even go around saying some map is un-rankable because there's one hit circle that's barely hidden under a slider... so feel free to ignore me (no sarcasm). :p

KRZY wrote:

a problem of certain members of the MAT/BAT .... not having the right mindset for their jobs.

This. Because if you look around, not many mappers' maps get speedranked. They all quite involve the same specific group of people.

I for one disagree with things like "speedranking is okay as long as the map's flawless", because it doesn't only take 2 XATs in 2 days to decide that. Then again, I guess it's not too hard to, for example, map something with 1.0x DS and call it "flawless".

It really wouldn't harm setting a speed limit, as speedranking is the issue here, so I don't see why not. The worst case is, that mappers just sit and wait for time to pass, ie. there won't be speedranks, but a later rank on that map wouldn't necessarily be a better one.. Again, this is only the worst case, but it at least eliminates speedranks.

xsrsbsns wrote:

This. Because if you look around, not many mappers' maps get speedranked. They all quite involve the same specific group of people.

I for one disagree with things like "speedranking is okay as long as the map's flawless", because it doesn't only take 2 XATs in 2 days to decide that. Then again, I guess it's not too hard to, for example, map something with 1.0x DS and call it flawless.

I agree with you. Speedranking happens usually in maps that usually involve the same specific group of people.
Speedranking a map just because it doesn't have any unrankable issue (aka "flawless" map) isn't a valid reason to do so.
Also, there are a lot of other maps that are still waiting to be looked at, and some of them can be called "flawless" maps because they don't have any unrankable stuff, but they still have to wait just because their respective mappers aren't involved in that group of people. Well, I also think that it's good to don't speedrank because maps can improve much more, going out of the standard "technically ok beatmap". People should be caring about quality. This kinda worries me. I don't want to be playing maps that are technically ok just to raise my pp or ranked score.. I want to play original and enjoyable beatmaps, with intuitive patterns just for fun, to enjoy more the game. (I'm saying this because most of the latest ranked maps kinda lack creativity and originality in my point of view).

Most of common players don't know anything about mapping. They'll not check how fast you ranked your map, they'll just play the map and see its quality during gameplay.

Let's think it like this: You ranked your map fast, but almost nobody will play it multiple times to keep enjoying the map. They'll see it just as a way to raise pp and rank.. not as an special and memorable map that leaves you the feeling of: "oh I would play this map again! I love it!". - I don't really see that as a good deal.

This problem should be solved for the sake of quality of every beatmap.

With regards to the modding quality aspect, I wholeheartedly agree. I wrote a short blurb on the issue a while back when the public concern was more about the large amount of bubbles. This is in my user page and is also translated to Chinese thanks to LKs and JPY. Im on my phone so its a butt to post here for your reading convenience, sorry. q:

if ppl can speedrank, they do it

if ppl cant speedrank, they make threads like this

no need discussion here, its simple

Garven wrote:

With regards to the modding quality aspect, I wholeheartedly agree. I wrote a short blurb on the issue a while back when the public concern was more about the large amount of bubbles. This is in my user page and is also translated to Chinese thanks to LKs and JPY. Im on my phone so its a butt to post here for your reading convenience, sorry. q:

I read this and I agree with most points.

I especially liked Garven's comment on the mindset of mappers, which is quoted below

I think a change in attitude from mappers could help a lot here - especially from newer mappers. You should expect to remap your first few creations several times before getting significant progress in the ranking system. Even having to abandon a mapset isn’t unheard of. There seems to be the feeling that anything you create will ultimately go for ranking, regardless of quality. Mappers also need to be open to alternative ideas in their maps, and to take the spirit of a suggestion in check instead of simply saying “yes” or “no”. Consider why the modder gave the suggestion and even if you disagree with that particular implementation. Is there a way you can use it somewhere else in your map? Does it give you an idea of how to make another pattern better? If mappers dug a little deeper into suggestions for their work, it could go a long way to improving map sets, and possibly bring forth new and better ideas.

This shows that mapping is a growing process; even ampzz once said something to the effect of "everything from a week ago now looks like **** to me; I hate my past maps and need to remap them," which is a decision he made himself after going back and looking at his older maps.
Even myself, I find my maps from a week ago, even a few days before to have flaws. Therefore, I cannot map a flawless map because the quality that maps need to be for me keep growing and thus, there are always ways to improve a map, much like writing, where you can't make a perfect paragraph with no need of improvement.

Further touching on Garven's points (quoting)

The modder now has to explain why the map isn’t up to standards, and the mapper is stuck with a the decision of remapping, essentially wiping out all the suggestions of previous modders, or leaving it the same and hoping they will luck out with more lenient upper-level modders. If the remap does occur, this leaves responsibility in the hands of the modder who made the suggestion to help guide the mapper and let them grow. This is a significant investment of time and requires a lot of patience depending on how the mapper interprets the advice given. Of course this means less time modding other map sets, and is another reason for the bottleneck of beatmaps in the bubble list. What little time the moderators in management have to offer towards modding tends to be focused towards the easier-to-mod maps since they won’t require as much time to take care of.

I'd like to point out where he says that management will offer modding towards easier-to-mod maps, pointing a lack of effort on the part of management. I'm not blaming them, please don't misunderstand.

I feel like speedranking is impossible to do, and if it's done, then there's a problem with the MAT/BAT team that approves of it.

Why do you say this, you might ask. If there's something that the mapper can improve on, but doesn't because it's technically rankable, is the map at it's best, or just another half-assed work?

I personally dislike the quality of current ranked mapsets, as they are pretty boring and lack in quality. Everything looks as though it's just going for "oh, this is technically rankable."

Also, h3k1ru : I'm not jealous or envious, I'd rather play quality maps rather than "technically rankable" maps.

h3k1ru wrote:

if ppl can speedrank, they do it

well, everyone can speedrank if they want
but it doesn't say that their maps are good, because most of the speedranks are coming from the same mappers and they're just boring as fuck, gets speedrank because the mapper is popular and not because the mapset worth it

Milkshake wrote:

h3k1ru wrote:

if ppl can speedrank, they do it

well, everyone can speedrank if they want
but it doesn't say that their maps are good, because most of the speedranks are coming from the same mappers and they're just boring as fuck, gets speedrank because the mapper is popular and not because the mapset worth it

every mapper think their map is good, and at the point they press "Submit" button they want get it ranked

if u dislike maps from some mappers, just skip it

rather than complain about "oh, how fast that map got ranked", better start working on ur own maps or spend this time to help other mappers who actually ask for help

You guys (especially Wishy22) start being way too subjective (mainly pointing out names of your favourites mappers). I suggest you hold back a bit and think before posting, because this kind of subjectiveness will lead nowhere.

Wishy22: you're being so blatantly and obviously subjective that I wonder if you actually bothered trying to understand the point of the thread. Set aside your own personal views and stop being so biased. The "fixes" you are proposing would benefit only a very small group of mappers - the ones you like - while making things much worse for the rest.

That said, one of the problem with modding quality is mapper response. We all know a lot of mappers who just reply "no" to everything without even explaining why, when they actually bother replying to mods. This attitude has become way too common and nothing is being done about it. I've talked to a few people whom I consider to be excellent modders, but hardly mod anymore, and they all said the same thing: they are tired of the mapper response and don't think it's worth it to try to help them anymore.

So my call is this: when you notice a mapper that doesn't reply properly to mods (whether it is to yours or other people's), write their name on a list and refuse to mod their maps. Please realize that this is an emergency "solution", to try and make people stop being afraid of modding and proposing things just because mappers have too big of an ego to actually consider the fixes and realize that they need that help. The problem is that most of these mappers are "experienced" and have a huge fanbase, and can continue doing whatever they want and keep their awful attitude because they get their maps ranked anyway. Bad attitudes only stay on because they are tolerated.

h3k1ru wrote:

if ppl can speedrank, they do it

if ppl cant speedrank, they make threads like this

no need discussion here, its simple

fwiw i've speedranked more maps than you. what is your point? if you have nothing to contribute, then please leave.

"skipping" and pretending it doesn't exist doesn't solve the problem and is what i've been trying to discuss in this thread, if you bothered to read it.

h3k1ru wrote:

if u dislike maps from some mappers, just skip it

How about songs that are good and maps are horribad? Your favorite song was mapped so bad that it's not even fun to play.
It's not about disliking maps, it's that the map is no fun. I'm pretty sure the point of this game is to have fun while you're playing songs you like.

dkun wrote:

fwiw i've speedranked more maps than you.

glad to hear that from a guy, whos complain about speedranking, lol

dkun wrote:

"skipping" and pretending it doesn't exist doesn't solve the problem

its solve all the problems, otherway u become.. uhm.. "hater"?

aston wrote:

How about songs that are good and maps are horribad? Your favorite song was mapped so bad that it's not even fun to play.

remap it! make it like u think "it should looks"

h3k1ru wrote:

its solve all the problems, otherway u become.. uhm.. "hater"?

then we can rank everything :'D doesn't matter if it's bad or not, let's just skip it :'DDDDD

h3k1ru wrote:

remap it! make it like u think "it should looks"

You're saying I should remap every song I think is bad? 'Tis impossible! ; _ ;

h3k1ru wrote:

dkun wrote:

fwiw i've speedranked more maps than you.

glad to hear that from a guy, whos complain about speedranking, lol

dkun wrote:

"skipping" and pretending it doesn't exist doesn't solve the problem

its solve all the problems, otherway u become.. uhm.. "hater"?

why try to reason with someone who can't even comprehend basic english
your mentality is part of this issue

dkun wrote:

@other people: if this doesn't concern you, or if you have negative things to say about speedranking that does not contribute to the thread's purpose, then please do not post at all.

h3k, please try contributing something substantial to the thread instead of just flame baiting.

h3k1ru, dkun is not complaining out of envy. He is complaining because he knows that the system is faulty.

Let me emphasize something that is in the OP.

dkun wrote:

@other people: if this doesn't concern you, or if you have negative things to say about speedranking that does not contribute to the thread's purpose, then please do not post at all.

thelewa wrote:

h3k1ru, dkun is not complaining out of envy. He is complaining because he knows that the system is faulty.

It's not so much that the system is faulty--it's that people are faulty. The only way to guarantee a map's quality is to let it receive as much feedback as possible.

True enough, but the people are an integral part of the system in osu!

Odaril wrote:

That said, one of the problem with modding quality is mapper response. We all know a lot of mappers who just reply "no" to everything without even explaining why, when they actually bother replying to mods. This attitude has become way too common and nothing is being done about it. I've talked to a few people whom I consider to be excellent modders, but hardly mod anymore, and they all said the same thing: they are tired of the mapper response and don't think it's worth it to try to help them anymore.

I agree with this so much, it's not even funny. I actually made a small paragraph about this very topic a few pages earlier:

Mr Color wrote:

See, that's something I disagree with. Instead of getting the map ranked with fewer mods, the map should be stuck in its ranking process until the mapper accepts to give in and eventually apply changes pointed out by the mods. This would prompt mappers with too much pride to learn some modesty, also.

This is really something to be considered here, imo. I personally think that a bad behavior towards your map should end up with it nuked, but I know it's a bit extreme of a stance. Any mapper, before being able to give kudosu to any mod, would have to quote the mod, and reply to it with what he changed, didn't change, and why. This causes a problem: Some mappers really aren't good with English. This we can fix by asking people who can speak both the mapper's native language, and English, to help out. It should motivate said mappers to improve their English skills, also.

------------------------

Milkshake wrote:

then we can rank everything :'D doesn't matter if it's bad or not, let's just skip it :'DDDDD

fyi, you might say this in an ironic/sarcastic fashion, but they are players who really think this should be how the system works. Sadly enough.

How about those modding queues which put "star this map first" as one of the rules (Star 4 Mod queues)? I mean why ask people to star your map when you just can mod someone's map, get kudosu, and then star your own map? This can fool anyone into thinking that the map is bubble/rank worthy as it receives lots of stars from other people while actually lacking mods and/or actual stars from others (not stars from queues).

Kurokami's post was deleted (by me), as it contributed nothing to the conversation, was completely irrelevant, and absolutely not objective.

Also deleted haha's post, that was completely irrelevant as well, full of flamebait, and above all posted without reading the thread.

Frizz925 wrote:

How about those modding queues which put "star this map first" as one of the rules (Star 4 Mod queues)? I mean why ask people to star your map when you just can mod someone's map, get kudosu, and then star your own map? This can fool anyone into thinking that the map is bubble/rank worthy as it receives lots of stars from other people while actually lacking mods and/or actual stars from others (not stars from queues).

I would love to perma lock these queues, as they're the greatest example of people abusing the system. Most of the time, the author is one of these mappers with awful attitude. Unfortunately, for now, the BAT has no authority over how mod queues are made.

One thing that contributes to the lowering quality of modding is, in my opinion, mod4mod. While modding is suppose to be a free act to help someone improve, mod4mod basically makes it become "I'll just mod it so he mods mine" and both mods are half-assed and of very low quality. Anything along the lines of "if you mod my map I'll do this" contributes to this trend.

I don't get why mine was completety irrelevant. anyways I've read things and now i think i have my right to post?

Yes my post was pretty much full of flamebait BUT would you please admit that it's so much true and that's what makes my post flamebait?

Every problem starts from where not enough modders, MATs, BATs are truely active.

Shiro wrote:

One thing that contributes to the lowering quality of modding is, in my opinion, mod4mod. While modding is suppose to be a free act to help someone improve, mod4mod basically makes it become "I'll just mod it so he mods mine" and both mods are half-assed and of very low quality. Anything along the lines of "if you mod my map I'll do this" contributes to this trend

Do you really think we can get a quality mod without MOD4MOD? Yes you might be definitely right but sadly there is like 1% chance to receive any mod if you don't run for M4M.


Can we be little more realistic? I know your opinions are and very right and IDEAL.

I think that mod4mod has plenty of merit. However, one should confirm it only after checking the other person's map thoroughly and also with the implication/stipulation that they'll only mod if they've received a mod with at least a modicum of thought. Really, any queue with conditions which benefit the mapper should be carried out in a way which will encourage good modding. For example, one could do everything that they can in order to make a decent mod, after saying that the other modder has to put some thought into theirs.

I have always gotten mods for my maps without mod4mod or mod queue usage. It slows down the process, and asking friends helps, but it goes to show how it mod4mod isn't required to get good mods.

s4m queues have always been against the rules, just never enforced. i've given the mod queue forum an ultimatum to stop offering them within the week lest they lose the ability to open modding queues for a hefty sum of time.

we had a recent team surge only a few months ago where our active personnel expanded by roughly 50% - and look where we are now. adding new people clearly is not the issue - the vast majority of newBAT go inactive due to the horrible burnout that practically all of us experience after modding maps non-stop for several weeks. adding new people will not fix the issue, nor will clearing out older, supposedly "inactive" BAT (i was black for several weeks while ironing out issues pertinent to the newrules back when people cared about them).

as far as speedranking goes, it has always been a grey area exploited by the more opportunistic mappers and modders. it is something a lot of us openly frown upon - but to be frank, if a map is ready to be ranked, are we honestly at liberty to deny it ranking in the stead of other maps which have been waiting longer?

Problem is, most of the time, the map isn't ready to be ranked, yet it is anyway.

My post was give nothing to the conversation, oh well, it true, but I just wrote my thoughts.

Anyways. m4m will always be a half hearted, because there the peoples need to race with other modder to get mod from a XAT. Better if we just not allowed m4m, this way maybe the mods quality will increase since no time limit. Of course, the mapper will always have his/her own choice to mod the others map, but at least this will depends on the received mod's quality.

There should not be a time limit to modding. Mod4mods are a good way to ensure that people commit to a mod and mods from that should be given the same substantial effort that one would put in if they chose to mod on their own accord.

My opinion on mod4mod is to forbid people to say "the three first modposts will get their maps modded", but instead put a time limitation of two days or more, in order to get well constructed (and constructive) mods instead of just hitsounds/NCs mods, which are quickly made (so you can be in the first three posts) but mostly useless.

As for the speedranking, I don't really care about it as long as the map doesn't get unranked after. But the opposite point is annoying : getting mods when you don't have friends amongst the XAT or when you're not a well-known mapper is just a paiiiiiin. There's nothing that can be done for this, but I just wanted to tell it in public.

I kinda agree with Shirodaril here : the only solution would be to promote the "good behaviors" (constructive mods, mappers who respect modders and apply mods or if they don't explain why...) and to nuke the bad ones.

Bashing m4m/setting time limits on mods are only contemporary solutions, if at all. Improvement of the global modding quality can only come from within, not from the outside.

- XATs must not exploit their position to speedrank their maps. We all know what this is about.
- s4m queues make zero sense and must be gone. Strong action should be taken against these queues.

Again, comes down to more commitment from modders and particularly from the XATs.

Can't agree with S4M very much. Despite the appearance due to BATs neglected those old bubbles, it's overused and against its original purpose.

M4M is the most stable way to earn a mod now. But about time limition to instead of slot limit, it's really just a joke because the req will be excess. Modding is a hard work and most modder can mod only several maps per week, espeically experienced modders -- they always have more reqs via online directly.

I agree with Ephemeral's view in some degree, add more MAT/BAT cannot resolve the problem, because more and more new mappers join this area, but modder is much less than that. I think the problem is we have not a good encourage system for modders: Kudosu is useless.... since mod can give SP, it's worse. Mappers could derive satification from ranking map, but pity modders can only earn some KDs which couldn't make their map have a high enough priority to MAT/BAT, and now even the only usage of kds might be replaced.

However, we cannot censure MAT/BAT neglect or ignore High sp maps, because they're always fill with various kinds of modreqs -- at least i suppose so. some times, a req from mutual is really hard to refused. It seems that, before a new ranking system established, add more MATs/BATs is the only way to relieve the problem.

Scorpiour wrote:

Kudosu is useless.... since mod can give SP, it's worse. Mappers could derive satification from ranking map, but pity modders can only earn some KDs which couldn't make their map have a high enough priority to MAT/BAT, and now even the only usage of kds might be replaced.

Agree with this, the Kudosu system those days is completely useless due the new "I give a kudosu, I have a Star Point" system, but I don't know if the kudosu system will be removed in over time.

Scorpiour wrote:

M4M is the most stable way to earn a mod now. But about time limition to instead of slot limit, it's really just a joke because the req will be excess. Modding is a hard work and most modder can mod only several maps per week, espeically experienced modders -- they always have more reqs via online directly.

Yeah, but instead of "I'll mod the maps of the first three persons who mod my map", which encourages people to make quick and poor mods, why not doing something like "I'll mod maps from a selection of the most useful mods given for my map in a period of three days" ? You'll get better mods, and you'll be encouraged to make good mods too, while not being overwhelmed by requests.
Just throwing out this idea, though. ^^;

Mercurial wrote:

Scorpiour wrote:

Kudosu is useless.... since mod can give SP, it's worse. Mappers could derive satification from ranking map, but pity modders can only earn some KDs which couldn't make their map have a high enough priority to MAT/BAT, and now even the only usage of kds might be replaced.

Agree with this, the Kudosu system those days is completely useless due the new "I give a kudosu, I have a Star Point" system, but I don't know if the kudosu system will be removed in over time.

I actually disagree, if you're a known mapper, then you can probably get all your SP from mod posts true, but if you're a new mapper, then most of your hopes of increasing the SP would come from your own kudosu.

However this is going off-topic, as you can see kudosu is mostly irrelevant when speedranking happens, all a mapper needs to get their map ranked is 12 SP and 2 members of the XAT, since modding by SP only happens 50% of the time, they can just go ahead and say this wasn't part of that 50%

Sakura wrote:

Mercurial wrote:

Agree with this, the Kudosu system those days is completely useless due the new "I give a kudosu, I have a Star Point" system, but I don't know if the kudosu system will be removed in over time.

I actually disagree, if you're a known mapper, then you can probably get all your SP from mod posts true, but if you're a new mapper, then most of your hopes of increasing the SP would come from your own kudosu.

you're right, KDs might be the only way for new mapper to improve their SP but the most scarce is experienced modder.... i can remember nearly all active modders' name, not because of my good memory, but due to there's no many.

But to new mappers, the best way for them to improve their mapping skill is experienced modders' mod, or guide. We mod for improve maps, not for high sp, so as soon as a new mapper grown up, the enthusiasm of modding would be lost because as you said, they needn't too many kds for themselves.

I think the kds ranking can support my opinion, a month before, the #50 is 452kds, now it's 453, and only a new man join top50 kds.



ahh...and about speedranking, i remain neutral. Good map deserve a rank no matter how long it's submitted because mapper may submit it after (s)he finished all diffs, for example, this map, http://osu.ppy.sh/s/46733, charles's excellent work, app in a week, but is one of the best map in 2012 i think.

As most people have agreed, we don't really mind speedranks as long as the maps in question really ARE flawless - the question now is, how do we ensure that a map gets enough competent people looking at it to avoid oversights?
The main issue with speedranking as a concept is that usually only a select few people get to look at/mod the map before it's ranked, so how about we add a requirement that maps with less than X kudos'd mod posts (or that have been submitted for less than X days, but I prefer the mod post variation) need an additional bubble for approval/ranking? That way the mapper either has to get a decent number of normal mods, or convince an additional XAT to consider the map flawless (which means an additional "high quality" mod).
Sure, people can still get a bunch of lazy random new-combo mods and stuff like that just to fulfill this requirement, but, as was already mentioned, the attitude of some mappers is the other huge problem and not as easy to adress.
I know that my suggestion has its flaws, but it would at least add an extra layer of quality assurance. Any thoughts on this?

I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.

From my perspective, it looks like sometimes people deliberately don't mod a map which has potential to be speedranked and then after it's ranked, they write their stuff. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as the map does get modded after all, it could be considered a dick move, where only fingers will be pointed at and a lot of rage would just come out of nowhere. Why people act like this, I have no idea.
I have seen cases where a map was ranked, then unranked, but since the map was over a month old, everyone was bitching how the unrank was unjustified and it didn't make things easier for anyone. In contrast, if a relatively ok map was ranked in a really short amount of time, but for one or the other reason a thing has slipped by which warrants an unrank, then suddenly it's the mapper's fault and all hate gets directed at the mapper. This only tells me that a lot of people are just bitter about this issue.
Don't get me wrong, I don't really support speedranking, but I am not against it if the map is really that ok.

Frizz925 wrote:

I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.

Thoughts like this are okay, however they are very vague and without a solution. Best way to change something is when you aren't satisfied with something, provide an alternative which you find satisfying. Just keep in mind that you need to look at it objectively and with the bigger picture, in addition to it's potential flaws, etc.

Frizz925 wrote:

I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.

Prevent people from using kd on a map that isn't at least +12 ?

Shiro wrote:

Frizz925 wrote:

I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.

Prevent people from using kd on a map that isn't at least +12 ?

this.
plus set a limit of kudosu that one person can spend on one map.

EDIT: I had an idea. maybe we should decrease the worth of a star if the same person already spent a star. like, 1 star is worth 1 star, but 2 stars are only worth 1,8 stars. the more stars the person spents on the map, the more the worth of each individual star fades, until they are almost worthless at some point. it still would be effective to spam maybe 3-4 stars, but not 20 or even more.

even if this doesn't get implemented as an actual counter, XATs still could give maps with many stars from few individuals a lower priority than maps with relatively few stars, but many individuals.

How does that help? You know maps can be pretty flawless at times. While it's rare, it's still possible and that way you only hurt them.

dkun wrote:

Essentially... Getting a map "speedranked" accelerates or even skips over the modding process, hindering the quality of ranked maps. It skips over what makes a map "polished", or what makes it "good". This is something that shouldn't be rushed, or avoided to any extent.

Lets get back to this line for a second, i want to hear peoples opinion on this.

1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?

2. A map that has been in pending for 4 months, has 7 mods (4 normal, 3 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this one also go through the modding process and is ready for rank?

Which case is most eligible for rank?

Some people just like to treat maps more like a number (MY #199 RANKED BEATMAP!!11), rather than a sort of art, or even like a construction.

This is the way some people perceive/want mapping be
While some want to map like this, and take their time making it pretty and polished :
Quantity over Quality is what speedranking is. Although as Mr.Color said, sometimes, very rarely, is a map perfect enough to warrant it.

Gabi wrote:

Lets get back to this line for a second, i want to hear peoples opinion on this.

1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?

2. A map that has been in pending for 4 months, has 7 mods (4 normal, 3 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this one also go through the modding process and is ready for rank?

Which case is most eligible for rank?

According to the currently most popular standard, the first would be called a speedrank and much sarcasm would ensue in the beatmap topic after it is ranked. The second would not be called a speedrank but a couple of people might take a swipe at its lack of mods. However, it would never receive as much attention as the first mapset did.

Gabi brings up a great point. We need to clarify what exactly we are dealing with. Is it the time window that we're upset with, or is it the lack of mods that we're upset with? Or is it a little bit of both? If we exclude mod quality from the big picture (that is, if we assume that all mods were of average-to-good quality), I think we need to be upset about the latter. If one is able to pull off the first example, we may hate it but it's technically not any different from a map with the same amount of mods in a much longer time period. If one is able to pull off the second example, however, any lack in map quality can directly be related to the lack of mods it had.

It is the number of mods the mapset has rececived, not the number of days the mapset has sat in pending, that is important when we are dealing with speedranks.

Having said the above, a lot of "speedranked" maps these days have only a few mods that aren't even average quality. A hundred below-par mods won't help the map more than several great quality mods will. This brings us back to my idea that the core problem lies in mod quality.

The problem with speedranks is that there isn't a big enough time window for the map to get modded properly, in the first scenario if the map can get many mods that fast then it could get more mods, in the 2nd scenario looks like a mapper's apparent lack of effort in getting mods for it's map, or modders didn't want to mod it, as there's been quite a big time window to get them.

Ironically, this got ranked in 2 days with around 11 mods: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/23506 and no one ever complained about it.
Or do you prefer mappers to do stuff like what happened here? http://osu.ppy.sh/s/27378 (20 mods and around a week since revival)

Gabi wrote:

1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?

Not trying to be subjective here, but this is what happened, for example, with the recently unranked map, which has also happened plenty of times with the same mapper. They get half-assed mods quickly and just call random MATs/BATs so the map gets ranked quickly. Yes, no matter how many mods there are in the thread, quality is barely looked into the mapset, using mods simply as a way to say "this map has been modded please rank it now" and not as a way to make your map better.

Gabi wrote:

dkun wrote:

Essentially... Getting a map "speedranked" accelerates or even skips over the modding process, hindering the quality of ranked maps. It skips over what makes a map "polished", or what makes it "good". This is something that shouldn't be rushed, or avoided to any extent.

Lets get back to this line for a second, i want to hear peoples opinion on this.

1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?

2. A map that has been in pending for 4 months, has 7 mods (4 normal, 3 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this one also go through the modding process and is ready for rank?

Which case is most eligible for rank?

Neither; but in today's case? Number 2 would be taken as the "better" solution, as time has passed. I'm essentially saying that more time should be given (but a limit shouldn't be placed, as that's counter productive).

As KRZY stated... Change needs to come within the modding community and the XAT within itself to change the fundamentals of what drives ranked maps.

And with your #1 option, what BD just said above me is essentially true. Especially in the example I listed in OP.

aston wrote:

Further touching on Garven's points (quoting)

The modder now has to explain why the map isn’t up to standards, and the mapper is stuck with a the decision of remapping, essentially wiping out all the suggestions of previous modders, or leaving it the same and hoping they will luck out with more lenient upper-level modders. If the remap does occur, this leaves responsibility in the hands of the modder who made the suggestion to help guide the mapper and let them grow. This is a significant investment of time and requires a lot of patience depending on how the mapper interprets the advice given. Of course this means less time modding other map sets, and is another reason for the bottleneck of beatmaps in the bubble list. What little time the moderators in management have to offer towards modding tends to be focused towards the easier-to-mod maps since they won’t require as much time to take care of.

I'd like to point out where he says that management will offer modding towards easier-to-mod maps, pointing a lack of effort on the part of management. I'm not blaming them, please don't misunderstand.

Keep in mind I wrote this when there was a huge bottleneck of bubbled maps in pending (~5 pages) so this was more the reasoning as to why some maps ended up rotting for 4+ weeks and other maps were still getting ranked quickly. With the semi-recent return to the focus on higher priority maps, it has definitely helped a lot on the older maps front, as long as either the mapper or others cared enough to try and promote their map to the first page. There are still some old ones there, but I have a feeling there are far fewer now than there would have been had this change not been put in effect.

Although having a better focus on improving beatmap moderation as a whole, these particular cases where the map gets through the ranking process in a fairly expedited manner definitely limits the possibility of receiving mods simply due to time restrictions, as previously pointed out.

To those complaining about the way the star system works right now: I fail to see how your arguments are a detriment. People gain kudosu by contributing towards making the maps made for this game better. If you've gained a lot, it is implied that you have a better understanding of what you're doing, so if you choose to support something, you can see the potential in that map. Restricting this feels pointlessly inhibiting. Even recently I get a kudosu star to a map set that I was asked to play test. It was still in WIP, but I felt that the mapper was heading in the right direction and so I wanted to give some support. 12+ only for kudosu stars? Limit the amount of a single person can contribute? Feels like you're trying to take away what little reward there is beyond warm fuzzies from modding. That's not going to help keep people modding, me thinks.

Lets look at a few things here.

@BD

They get half-assed mods quickly and just call random MATs/BATs so the map gets ranked quickly.

What is a "half-assed" mod, who is to blame for these "half-assed" mods?

@Dkun

Neither; but in today's case? Number 2 would be taken as the "better" solution, as time has passed. I'm essentially saying that more time should be given (but a limit shouldn't be placed, as that's counter productive).

You say neither, but why? What is it that has to happen to this map before it can get ranked? Is it additional mods? Is it these special "quality mods"? Or is it just more time for other people to take a look at it and say "wow nice map, star!"?

Experienced mappers have this retarded problem when they make good maps and they ask a BAT to mod their map, the BAT says "get more mods". When they ask people to mod their map, the modders reply with "Your map is flawless, couldn't find anything wrong". What do these mappers do at this point? they are sort of stuck at option 2 (exclude the mod count) which i mentioned in my earlier post, and according to your view on it, these people will never be qualified to have their maps ranked.

I know mappers that have deliberately put silly mistakes on their maps just to get some serious "quality" mods on their maps in order for the BATs to see this and then further be able to get a mod from the BAT.

Gabi wrote:

dkun wrote:

Essentially... Getting a map "speedranked" accelerates or even skips over the modding process, hindering the quality of ranked maps. It skips over what makes a map "polished", or what makes it "good". This is something that shouldn't be rushed, or avoided to any extent.

Lets get back to this line for a second, i want to hear peoples opinion on this.

1. A map that has been in pending for 3 days, has received 11 mods (7 normal, 2 MAT, 2 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this go through the "modding process" and is ready for rank?

2. A map that has been in pending for 4 months, has 7 mods (4 normal, 3 BAT) and got ranked after, is that considered a speed rank, or did this one also go through the modding process and is ready for rank?

Which case is most eligible for rank?

Normal people can't get 2 MAT and 2 BAT mods within 3 days. So it's speedranked.

I'd be lucky if i get 1 MAT within the first month.

Gabi wrote:

@BD

They get half-assed mods quickly and just call random MATs/BATs so the map gets ranked quickly.

What is a "half-assed" mod, who is to blame for these "half-assed" mods?

For example. A BAT makes a mod4mod queue, and the first three people to mod his map will get a mod back. People will make a rushed, quickly done mod (but still worth kudosu, at least in the current system) that doesn't even look to improve the quality of the map, just matters for getting an easy BAT mod.

The ones to be blamed are, in this case, the BAT, who is just looking for a quick way to get his maps ranked, without caring about quality (doesn't care if mods are good to improve the map or not, just uses them as a way to get it ranked faster) and the modders, who are doing anything to get an easy BAT mod.

--

About what I said before, the second case in your post, Gabi, at least shows that the mapper is patient enough to wait for some time before getting the map ranked, and not rushing through everything. My first few maps have both of these cases - In some of them, I rushed through #mod to get a lot of mods, and bugging MATs/BATs to get my map ranked in 5 days; in other cases, it took me months to get a few mods, not being able to find many people, but still taking in consideration the mods that have been done, and the maps still got ranked. I personally find the second way much more comfortable for both the mapper and the community.

so much text.


im just here to say that i have no problem with speedranking if you have made a good map.
good map > quick rank > everybody happy, except bad mappers who whine about how other modders don't map their crappy map.

don't make crappy maps > ??? > get all the bitches mods

lolcubes wrote:

Frizz925 wrote:

I can't say much but Star Priority system needs to be revised much further in order to help XATs to take care of the maps that have been sitting in Pending for ages and are ready for bubble/rank while the mapper is still active and waiting for XATs to take a look at or rank them, seeing as XATs now check maps based from priority. This hopefully will avoid further speedranks from happening again.

Thoughts like this are okay, however they are very vague and without a solution. Best way to change something is when you aren't satisfied with something, provide an alternative which you find satisfying. Just keep in mind that you need to look at it objectively and with the bigger picture, in addition to it's potential flaws, etc.

I'm not going to say that it's a good idea that I have in mind at the moment: mods still affect SP just like how it's currently working. However SP gained from mods is weighed from how long the map has been sitting in Pending. Example, there are two maps sitting in Pending, map A and B. Both maps have the same SP at the moment, let's just say +6 SP. However, map A has been sitting in Pending for 1 month while map B only for less than a week. From this point, map A will increase its SP by +2 from each mod it receives, compared to map B which only increases its SP by +1.

Now let's make a case here. Both map A and B received 6 mods at the same time. Which one will have the higher SP? The answer is map A. From 6 mods that map A received, it increases its SP by 2 x 6 = +12 and that makes map A now has +18 SP. How about map B? From 6 mods that map B, it only increases its SP by 1 x 6 = +6 and that makes map B now has +12 SP. From this point, map A will have XATs attention in no time since it now has higher SP than map B does.

This is just my take in avoiding further speedrank from ever happening again. I haven't thought further about this idea so I'll be glad if anyone would add some thoughts to this. Just my $0.02.

GladiOol wrote:

im just here to say that i have no problem with speedranking if you have made a good map.
good map > quick rank > everybody happy, except bad mappers who whine about how other modders don't map their crappy map.

maybe in a perfect world

actual system

bad map > find a way for people to mod it easily (usually mod4mods) > still gets ranked
good map > no one is interested in anything mapper can offer back (e.g. mapper isn't a very good modder, or doesn't have time to open mod queues) > map gets ignored

I think some people who complain about speedranked maps are complaining at how it can be rather difficult for newer or less popular mappers to get their maps modded at all while more renowned mappers can pretty much get their map modded by just waiting.
The first people would probably take quite some time to get fully modded and ranked while the latter would get modded quickly and speedranked.

imo speedranking isn't that much of a problem, if a map gets modded quickly and is ~perfected~ quickly, so be it, let it be ranked, I don't think it should have to wait three months being rankable and showing no progress just because it'd be speedranked.


Perhaps I'm blabbering a bit, but the point is that I don't really see how speedranking would be a problem, the only improvement that (I think) should be made here is that it'd be easier for newer mappers to get modded/ranked, but then again I don't think that should be to much of a problem as most it should probably get modded if they really but an effort to it. (although perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps it's hard for newer mappers to get modded no matter what)

The problem with speedranked maps is that it gives the said maps a really small window for improvements and fixes from mods. If you take a closer look, most of the maps that got unranked lately are mostly speedranked maps. Okay, you may think that one map looks perfect and is ready for rank. However, not everyone thinks that it is perfect and ready for rank, hence why the said map should sit longer in Pending, waiting for further mods. Just take a look at Andrea's latest ranked map. Seeing unranks from my perspective as a player, unranks piss off the players a lot. Imagine having your score wiped off the scoreboard each time the map you just played got unranked. This is why both speedranks and unranks should be avoided at all cost.

Blue Dragon wrote:

For example. A BAT makes a mod4mod queue, and the first three people to mod his map will get a mod back. People will make a rushed, quickly done mod (but still worth kudosu, at least in the current system) that doesn't even look to improve the quality of the map, just matters for getting an easy BAT mod.

The ones to be blamed are, in this case, the BAT, who is just looking for a quick way to get his maps ranked, without caring about quality (doesn't care if mods are good to improve the map or not, just uses them as a way to get it ranked faster) and the modders, who are doing anything to get an easy BAT mod.

So if it's a BATs fault and everyone knows it, why doesn't anyone take a stand against it in the BAT? You say that this certain BAT doesn't care to improve the quality of their maps, well it doesn't seem like anyone else in the BAT cares about improving quality of the actual BAT. To me it feels like there is absolutely no discipline at all in the BAT. There are so many discussions, but in the end no one really cares or does anything about it.

Also lets face it, it's mostly BAT/MAT's (And people who knows them really well) that get their maps speed ranked, because most normal members don't have much to offer in a normal mod4mod.

Blue Dragon wrote:

GladiOol wrote:

im just here to say that i have no problem with speedranking if you have made a good map.
good map > quick rank > everybody happy, except bad mappers who whine about how other modders don't map their crappy map.

maybe in a perfect world

actual system

bad map > find a way for people to mod it easily (usually mod4mods) > still gets ranked
good map > no one is interested in anything mapper can offer back (e.g. mapper isn't a very good modder, or doesn't have time to open mod queues) > map gets ignored

and that's where the SP system is doing wrong. I have been against the entire system since the start, because you now have to actively search for mods. People who are more introvert, not willing to actively search or whatever are now simply screwed. The ones with the biggest mouth and willing to do anything for their bad map to get ranked, will get it ranked. The ones with the most awesome maps but who don't get mods, are fucked. This seems a bit silly to me. You shouldn't judge a map by it's mapper, but by the map itself.

Judge a map by the talent of the mapper, not the ambition he/she has to get it ranked.

GladiOol wrote:

You shouldn't judge a map by it's mapper, but by the map itself.

Judge a map by the talent of the mapper, not the ambition he/she has to get it ranked.

those statements hold so much truth. but sadly, it's a perfect world idea, and it won't come to this, since people always will look at the mappers name, the friends that the mapper has, heck, even gender, age, looks or just plain osu!-skill.

it is really up to the people to change their mindset, because there is really no reason to aim for a speedrank, for example I will remember maps like Aha? while I forget maps like... well, like 90% of the stuff that is mapped today. speedranking achieves nothing, while mapping truly awesome and creative stuff is what makes a mapper a legend even past his or her active career (mainexamples being Larto or Krisom).

Gabi wrote:

@Dkun

Neither; but in today's case? Number 2 would be taken as the "better" solution, as time has passed. I'm essentially saying that more time should be given (but a limit shouldn't be placed, as that's counter productive).

You say neither, but why? What is it that has to happen to this map before it can get ranked? Is it additional mods? Is it these special "quality mods"? Or is it just more time for other people to take a look at it and say "wow nice map, star!"?

Experienced mappers have this retarded problem when they make good maps and they ask a BAT to mod their map, the BAT says "get more mods". When they ask people to mod their map, the modders reply with "Your map is flawless, couldn't find anything wrong". What do these mappers do at this point? they are sort of stuck at option 2 (exclude the mod count) which i mentioned in my earlier post, and according to your view on it, these people will never be qualified to have their maps ranked.

I know mappers that have deliberately put silly mistakes on their maps just to get some serious "quality" mods on their maps in order for the BATs to see this and then further be able to get a mod from the BAT.

I say neither because the overall quality of mods is dropping. Please, don't get me wrong when I say this, because I fully do know the situation you listed, with experienced mappers having the problem of making good maps. This is the bottleneck of the issue, and this is the "flawless" part of the arguement that others have stated here.

But what my point emphasizes is that quality > quantity in terms of ranking, no? As I have said time and time again, quality shouldn't be hindered for the sake of quantity, which some XAT's do ultimately sacrifice. This thread is the discussion of what we do at this point, though.

Gabi wrote:

Blue Dragon wrote:

For example. A BAT makes a mod4mod queue, and the first three people to mod his map will get a mod back. People will make a rushed, quickly done mod (but still worth kudosu, at least in the current system) that doesn't even look to improve the quality of the map, just matters for getting an easy BAT mod.

The ones to be blamed are, in this case, the BAT, who is just looking for a quick way to get his maps ranked, without caring about quality (doesn't care if mods are good to improve the map or not, just uses them as a way to get it ranked faster) and the modders, who are doing anything to get an easy BAT mod.

So if it's a BATs fault and everyone knows it, why doesn't anyone take a stand against it in the BAT? You say that this certain BAT doesn't care to improve the quality of their maps, well it doesn't seem like anyone else in the BAT cares about improving quality of the actual BAT. To me it feels like there is absolutely no discipline at all in the BAT. There are so many discussions, but in the end no one really cares or does anything about it.

Also lets face it, it's mostly BAT/MAT's (And people who knows them really well) that get their maps speed ranked, because most normal members don't have much to offer in a normal mod4mod.

The entire reason of this post explains this, and how the problem isn't just this. Of course, I have spoken my mind in public channels about starting with removing said people, but others don't seem to share my same mindset.

Today's community:

Mappers don't really want their maps modded, because they think that their map is already good enough. The community is made up of many ignorant, stubborn, and egotistic people that only want to make satisfactory maps, and not maps that can't get any better. These people don't map for the community; they map for themselves - a number on their profile representing the number of maps they have uploaded under their account on the server. You'd hope that people would learn that this isn't acceptable, but as it stands, not enough people care about this issue (Staff and non-staff alike). Once a mapper has a few maps ranked in this fashion, he/she will continue to think that it is okay the keep ranking maps this way. Whether "this fashion" may refer to speed ranking, bad mapping technique that a mapper claims to be his/her "style", etc., it is nonetheless a problem.

However, you can't really blame the mapper. The staff and moderation teams are the ones in greater power, so of course we take a lot of the blame. But who are we to talk about speed ranking (or any other problems, for that matter) when we each have a voice in the community ourselves? See a bad bubbled map? Mod it and stop it from being ranked. Notice a map that can be made better? Post your suggestions. This is what you can do to take a map through the modding process, whether it be a week or a year (though, ranking decisions are internal so the BAT clearly has a problem on their own, but I'm not too sure that's really up for public discussion).

In essence, the ability to promote a map is a key asset to anybody who wants to get anywhere. It's effectively enterprise. If a mapper cares enough getting a map ranked, then they will do whatever they can in order to prove that they're worth even a modicum of attention. This could be as simple as talking in chats regularly. If the only ones who complain about speedranks are those who make crap maps, then those who complain about not getting any attention have crap social skills.

The fact is that, given the size of this community, it is extraordinarily hard for a map to stand out on its own merits. A map generally needs somebody to promote it and the mapper needs to be approachable.

In order to create the best damn map possible, there should be a balance between the mapper's openness to suggestions and willingness to change; a modder's willingness to make a thorough and sensible mod, while also being able to handle their suggestions being rejected; and the support of a community who can view a map objectively and in line with the rules and guidelines.

those wrote:

However, you can't really blame the mapper. The staff and moderation teams are the ones in greater power, so of course we take a lot of the blame. But who are we to talk about speed ranking (or any other problems, for that matter) when we each have a voice in the community ourselves? See a bad bubbled map? Mod it and stop it from being ranked. Notice a map that can be made better? Post your suggestions. This is what you can do to take a map through the modding process, whether it be a week or a year (though, ranking decisions are internal so the BAT clearly has a problem on their own, but I'm not too sure that's really up for public discussion).

On the flip side, you can really blame the mapper. As I stated earlier in this thread...

Scenario: I go to sleep with a map that's still not bubbled. I wake up with it being ranked. What happens now?
Scenario: I get lunch while a map is bubbled, said bubble is now ranked. Well?

See the time frame things like this is happening? It starts from within the team to fix itself before looking to the modders. Whether you recognize it exists or not is up to you.

dkun wrote:

On the flip side, you can really blame the mapper.

The problem, then, as you perceive, is the mapper pressing on certain XAT members to bubble and rank the map, which is actually an internal problem, since the BAT has the final decision on map ranking.

those wrote:

dkun wrote:

On the flip side, you can really blame the mapper.

The problem, then, as you perceive, is the mapper pressing on certain XAT members to bubble and rank the map, which is actually an internal problem, since the BAT has the final decision on map ranking.

(which I have stated in the OP, and which mm201 has verified somewhere in the pages shortly after.)

But at the point if this problem ever does get fixed, the problem then soon lies within the community to increase the overall quality of mod posts.

fwiw, what counts as "kudosu" should be re-written.

D33d wrote:

In essence, the ability to promote a map is a key asset to anybody who wants to get anywhere. It's effectively enterprise. If a mapper cares enough getting a map ranked, then they will do whatever they can in order to prove that they're worth even a modicum of attention. This could be as simple as talking in chats regularly. If the only ones who complain about speedranks are those who make crap maps, then those who complain about not getting any attention have crap social skills.

Well this is bullshit \:D/.

Some people simply are more introverted than others, you can't expect everyone to be the same. What you are saying here is that a bad mapper has more right to get his map ranked than a good mapper just because he has better ''social skillzzz''. That makes absolutely no sense at all.