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Nazi-modding is not the way to go.

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anonymous_old
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anonymous_old

lukewarmholiday wrote:

Only things I think people should nazi to death are repeating sliders which almost everyone can agree when used improperly can seriously mess up the flow of a map. Of course the irritability of repeating sliders varies immensely on how they are used, how well they fit the rythm, IF THEY END IN THE DIRECTION THAT YOUR MIND THINKS THEY WILL END. Some mappers still try to have a slider repeat 3 times for one section then 4 times out of the blue for another section.
I agree that many short repeating sliders are horrible. Not many in ranked maps, but they're there. I disagree with all sliders because some longer (two or more beats, sometimes one and a half beats)) repeating sliders are effective. My main issue with repeats, though, is that some are too long and some are too short in total length. This isn't as much of a problem if only a break follows, but it's annoying in faster maps like that Yu-Gi-Oh mix one where you don't know when they end.

</mini-rant>

lukewarmholiday wrote:

Honestly here's how you should mod.

Open up the map in play(or test if you're a bad player) and play through it, take note of anything that breaks your combo or flow, point it out.

Bam, a modded map.
That's what I do mostly. If I notice spacing issues (with patterns, etc.) or timing issues (e.g. with slider starts) in the editor I usually point that out, too. Also, I sometimes save replays so I can go back and see my mistakes and not have to remember everything.

/me just had an idea for a feature request.
/me posts.
/me has posted.
Larto
4,128 posts
Joined June 2008
Larto
I nazi mod a bit sometimes (e.g. 00:01:99 (1) - 1 Level 3 grid to the right), but usually when I do that, I noticed immediately when I saw the note that something is spaced wrongly OR when something isn't perfectly symmetric when the mapper tries to have it symmetric, and I think this is the limit. If you notice while playing that some note is spaced just a tad too far away or too close, or if you intend to have something perfectly symmetric, naziing is totally alright with me.
However, I see this kind of modding as optional.
There's also this bad kind of nazi modding that makes you mod a map for 1 hour just to have everything super perfectly spaced. This kind of modding usually sucks and is very annoying. If someone suggests stuff like that on my map, I proceed to make an annoyed face, however I do most of it, 'cos I'm a perfectionist. I still think that it's stupid.

tldr: Nazi modding is good if:
- You notice the errors immediately when seeing them.
- You try to get perfect symmetry in your map.

Nazi modding is not good if:
- The player wouldn't even notice a difference while playing.

No exceptions.
James
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anonymous_old
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anonymous_old

James wrote:

To those who mod with combocolors instead of 1-grid shit:
Please take a look at the pattern of the map first?
They might not follow the vocals...
They might follow the symmetrical patterns of the map layout...
They may intentionally not following the time signature(?) because
...Basically its the same as 1-grid shit.
I'm a combo nazi myself. I may close attention to combos greater than 8 or 12 notes (depending on the song). I also look out for single-note combos and make sure they make sense. (Creativity counts as sense; a mistake doesn't.)

If all your combos are off by one, e.g. vocals are mapped and they start on the fourth beat of a measure (in 4/4), and the combos start on the first beat of a measure, I mention that.

Switching instruments calls for spacing change, slider style change, and a new combo, as another example of what to mod for combos.

I'm guilty of messing up combos on a pattern but luckily it was mentioned and corrected. I'm grateful, EEeee.

Another note: you list a lot of "maybe"'s but no "definitely"'s, James, making it sound as if modding combos is completely wrong because the author intended it to be like that.

TL;DR because we're all doing it:
James is wrong about combo modding. It's okay to combo mod.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
I've tried nazi-modding before. I felt like I was wasting both my time and the mapper's while doing it. The kudosu are attractive and all but nazi-modding is boring as hell. It's not worth it.

So now I just mod by playing the map and noting the spots that either threw me off or looked ugly. Often, I end up saying the map has no errors.

Whenever I map (even though I only have one map and it's in pending, lol) the comments I tend to value the most are the ones that say something like "I had fun playing this". I wish it was appropriate to give kudosu for that...

Thanks for posting this, Rolled.
Echo
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Echo
Spacing
Don't point them out unless it's painfully obvious when you play through the song. If you need to use the beatspacing lock or need to count the grids to tell it's not spaced right, then you're not modding correctly.

Combo colours
Only point this out when the map gets into double digits too frequently. Otherwise you're wasting your time.

And what's this about nazi modding for kudos? You get kudos only and only if the mapper found your post helpful. Personally, I find nazi posts completely useless and I would never give kudosu to nazi mod posts
vytalibus
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vytalibus

Echo wrote:

Combo colours
Only point this out when the map gets into double digits too frequently. Otherwise you're wasting your time.
Actually, I also consider whenever a certain combo drains too much from the life bar, yet the HP drain rate seems to be okay on most parts. If a combo spans for more than five seconds, I might ask for him to change his patterns or just reassemble the combo markings.
Rolled
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Rolled
I'm going to be blatantly forward and rude in this post.

If you are a nazi mod, or if you are for nazi-modding, you are misinformed and probably haven't been around that long.

As I've said, it's become a fad that has rooted from one or two people (right about the time when community modding ((not BAT modding)) has been admired) and has spread to the majority of the new-modding community, since it's what they see being done in their maps.

If 1-grid alterations were required for a beatmap to be ranked, it'd be in the criteria. And if it was a big deal in the least bit, the editor would be more strict when placing notes. If you use distance/grid snap throughout an entire map, it's not likely you will have many/any spacing errors. Your map be bit a bit boring and straight-forward, but there should be nothing holding your map back from ranking.

There are two-exceptions of nazi-modding to this post. See the screenshots:



^Go ahead and point out the 4. It's clear they were going for a symmetrical, straight stairs-like pattern and a circle got misaligned.



^Point out the 4 as well. This one is a square-pattern, and a circle got misaligned. (apply this to larger square-jumps as well. If you plan to make a square, best way to do it is with horizontal/vertical flips. If they don't line up it may be okay to point out a few-grid alterations that can be done.

Any nazi-mod alterations that do not involve symmetry is wrong.

James
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Echo
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anonymous_old
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anonymous_old

James wrote:

strager wrote:

blablabla
yes, its OK to combo mod. i didnt say its wrong, but try to look at the pattern/symmetry of the map first.
they might be following the bgm and you keep on enforcing to use a new combo because you thought they are following the vocals...

... which is completely wrong.

and some people might add more combocolors because the map's drain rate is too high and they DONT want to change it.

some people also wants to KEEP their combos less than 10/12... forcing them to add combos > than 12 is a no no. especially for bats who doesnt want to bubble/star a map because the mapper doesnt want to change such trivial things like this.
K, that's what I meant myself, but it didn't seem you meant that from your post.

James wrote:

you might be a nazi mod but im sure i'm far better than you when it comes to modding.
you nazi and i use my brain. (no offence)
I take this as a personal attack.

@Rolled, Yes, I agree. <3
vytalibus
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vytalibus

Echo wrote:

vytalibus wrote:

Actually, I also consider whenever a certain combo drains too much from the life bar,
That's impossible because peppy's hp drain algorithm takes that into account.
Algorithmically the HP drain caters to the whole song and the hitcircle/slider patterns, but I'm talking about extreme cases where the HP goes dangerously low in certain parts. A classic example of this would be the original Airman map where with the new updates, the life bar gets drained out on the part where you'll probably think a break should be in (AKA that instrumental part).

Note that I've used the term "extreme" to describe how rarely this happens. Nowadays, mappers are too scared to put a very high HP drain rate.
Detective Tuesday
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Detective Tuesday
Nazi-modding is DUMB. If I could add anything that Rolled or others haven't said already, I would.

I'll just reiterate the most important point: Don't judge "mis-stacks" by how they look in the editor. If they play normally, they're passable.
eee
692 posts
Joined January 2008
eee

Rolled wrote:

Any nazi-mod alterations that do not involve symmetry is wrong.
I still think of that as naz-eeemodding, anything that has to do with design issues and hitcircles (nothing to do with timing) is a nazi mod.

in the Combo Colour part of this fiasco, combo colors should be according to verse/instrument changes and high combos, thats it.

I also agree with Echo on that portion, when did kudosu become something for effort, well, maybe effort, but what about help, if you DO NOT use the mod and think it's too stupid, just don't give the modder kudosu and do not follow the mod. kudosu are for the things that you are like "ohhhh, I forgot/didn't notice that, thx."
Starrodkirby86
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Echo
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CheeseWarlock
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vytalibus
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Mogsy
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Generally, when I nazimod, I DO look at what the mapper is going for and merely attempt to help them polish it. Pointing out blatant errors is also part of this. However, I need to call something out:

James wrote:

To those who mod with combocolors instead of 1-grid shit:
Please take a look at the pattern of the map first?
They might not follow the vocals...
They might follow the symmetrical patterns of the map layout...
They may intentionally not following the time signature(?) because
...Basically its the same as 1-grid shit.
Whenever I mod combo numbers, it's generally to make things make more sense. If the song itself is accented a certain way and if a mapper has mapped along those accents, then one certain numbering will make more sense and be better than random numbering.

I've gotten better since back in the day with this sort of thing, it's merely a point of doing this:
A) Following the song's style.
B) Following the style of the map.
C) Analyzing the accents and patterns of the map.
D) Finding which numbering helps make the map flow more smoothly.
...all of this at the same time.

Like you said in your other post, there's nothing wrong with combo number modding, but like people have said in the past, it needs to make sense.

As far as the acceptability of nazi-modding: don't look for just things to change, for crying out loud. The level I personally mod at is incredibly perfectionist, but I don't look for problems like crazy, I just point out exactly what I notice. If I think that people are picking at straws for things to change, then I will deny them kudosu. If the nazi-mod post is actually helpful, then they get it.
Saturos
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Saturos
'Sup

If it plays/feels/looks wrong when actually playing the map, call it out. If you have to physically go out of your way to find something wrong with something that felt and looked fine during play, you're doing it wrong.

Kiss and make-up now, kthx.
Rolled
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Rolled
who the fuck is this guy
Saturos
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Saturos
A wandering badass.
rust45
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rust45

Mogsworth wrote:

Generally, when I nazimod, I DO look at what the mapper is going for and merely attempt to help them polish it. Pointing out blatant errors is also part of this. However, I need to call something out:

James wrote:

To those who mod with combocolors instead of 1-grid shit:
Please take a look at the pattern of the map first?
They might not follow the vocals...
They might follow the symmetrical patterns of the map layout...
They may intentionally not following the time signature(?) because
...Basically its the same as 1-grid shit.
Whenever I mod combo numbers, it's generally to make things make more sense. If the song itself is accented a certain way and if a mapper has mapped along those accents, then one certain numbering will make more sense and be better than random numbering.

I've gotten better since back in the day with this sort of thing, it's merely a point of doing this:
A) Following the song's style.
B) Following the style of the map.
C) Analyzing the accents and patterns of the map.
D) Finding which numbering helps make the map flow more smoothly.
...all of this at the same time.

Like you said in your other post, there's nothing wrong with combo number modding, but like people have said in the past, it needs to make sense.

As far as the acceptability of nazi-modding: don't look for just things to change, for crying out loud. The level I personally mod at is incredibly perfectionist, but I don't look for problems like crazy, I just point out exactly what I notice. If I think that people are picking at straws for things to change, then I will deny them kudosu. If the nazi-mod post is actually helpful, then they get it.
^This I agree completely

Rolled wrote:

who the fuck is this guy
Does it matter he's someone with an opinion adding to the discussion, you don't need you use such harsh language just because you don't know someone.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
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Derekku

rust45 wrote:

Rolled wrote:

who the fuck is this guy
Does it matter he's someone with an opinion adding to the discussion, you don't need you use such harsh language just because you don't know someone.
lrn2sarcasm
Saturos
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Saturos
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal. People know me. I'm very important.
lukewarmholiday
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lukewarmholiday

Saturos wrote:

rust45
1,085 posts
Joined May 2009
rust45

Derekku Chan wrote:

rust45 wrote:

Rolled wrote:

who the fuck is this guy
Does it matter he's someone with an opinion adding to the discussion, you don't need you use such harsh language just because you don't know someone.
lrn2sarcasm
inb4failisnoted, oh wait. :roll:
Last edited by rust45 , edited 1 time in total.
EEeee
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Joined July 2008
EEeee
Back on topic

Nazi-modding isn't the way to go, as long as I find their modding useful, I consider it helpful
but for anyone who has to, HAS TO, find something wrong with a perfect map,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, DAMN
anonymous_old
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anonymous_old

EEeee wrote:

but for anyone who has to, HAS TO, find something wrong with a perfect map,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, DAMN
It's for the kd. Yes, I myself am sometimes greedy. I'm sure everyone has greed in them somewhere and may "use" it to nazi mod some time. If you have a problem with that, don't give the kd's or ask a BAT to remove kd's. (Hopefully the BAT will have good judgment and perhaps deny your request to deny.)

However, I believe kudosu should be given for any mod which is helpful in any way. Even if it points out one thing wrong with your map it deserves thanks, especially if you incorporate the change in your map. (Of course for collabs this gets a bit complicate but whatever.) If the post is full of nazi modding but contains at least one useful tip, take that tip and ignore the naziing if you wish. In a post you can say you ignored the nazi parts and after a while the modder will get the clue that naziing isn't worth the effort. Maybe.
Mogsy
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Not all nazimodding is done for kudosu. Like I stated before, I nazimod out of tough love. I won't nazi a map if there's nothing else I can do to make it better within an individual's style.
anonymous_old
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anonymous_old

Mogsworth wrote:

Not all nazimodding is done for kudosu. Like I stated before, I nazimod out of tough love. I won't nazi a map if there's nothing else I can do to make it better within an individual's style.
I meant to say pure naziing, as in checking every single note to make sure it's snapped and things like that. I understand and agree with your position, and am not saying that type of naziing is intolerable or just for kd's.
Echo
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Echo
Instead of trying to find something wrong with a perfect map to get kd (which I would definitely not give btw), go find an unmodded map and get definite kd for modding that!
Mogsy
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Mogsy

Echo wrote:

Instead of trying to find something wrong with a perfect map to get kd (which I would definitely not give btw), go find an unmodded map and get definite kd for modding that!
Doing the former is stupid. I end up only polishing things that stick out (since no map is perfect, but I don't go looking for the individual imperfection, anyone who does that should stop right now and get smacked).

Also, I second the latter.
anonymous_old
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anonymous_old

Mogsworth wrote:

Echo wrote:

Instead of trying to find something wrong with a perfect map to get kd (which I would definitely not give btw), go find an unmodded map and get definite kd for modding that!
Doing the former is stupid. I end up only polishing things that stick out (since no map is perfect, but I don't go looking for the individual imperfection, anyone who does that should stop right now and get smacked).

Also, I second the latter.
Same. Not many people go to the Help/WIP section from what I see, and that will surely get you kd's (especially older posts which give you two kd's =]).
Henkie
728 posts
Joined July 2008
Henkie
I don't mod alot.. actually almost never..
But I'm always one of the last modders for some maps,
and then i start to nazi-mod, BUT i only nazi-mod things i see on first sight, and i seem to see such things faster in someone else's map than my own D:
Yuukari-Banteki
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Yuukari-Banteki
as the person who kinda set this trend of nazi-modding, i feel im largely responsible for the extremism thats now emerging.

IF YOU CAN'T TELL THAT SOMETHING IS "WRONG" WHILE ACTUALLY PLAYING THE MAP, DON'T BOTHER TO CORRECT IT! This goes for stacking, alignment, etc.

On the same subject, if something is wrong with a map but you cant quite tell what it is, you should still say so and mappers you should pay attention to that.

tl;dr dont be a dick about modding in the name of nazi'ing.
Doomsday
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Doomsday
im not the biggest fan of nazi-modding, but sometimes its required. personally, i rarely, if ever, Nazi mod

my definition of a nazi-mod are mods like "move 1 to the left, grid level 3" mods. i don't consider stuff like "New Combo" or "Whistle Here" to be nazi modding but thats just me.
awp
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awp

Doomsday93 wrote:

i don't consider stuff like "New Combo" or "Whistle Here" to be nazi modding but thats just me.
I wouldn't either, since those are things that might noticeably improve a map. You can actually spot them while playing.
Card N'FoRcE
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Card N'FoRcE
Sometimes people don't understand that something was made to be not snapped or alligned by the author himself.
I approve of suggestions for making a stream/stack/whatever look better, but many times i went through simmetry-nazi modding and that's just annoying (i mean, i have more than 10 ranked maps, i think i know how to map xD).
I was a nazi modder once, but i don't nazi anymore: now i do it just for some beats that may actually look better if nazimodded.

So, if a map has lots of 1-2 square grid inconsistancies, just tell the author about it and report just some examples.
IMHO the best way to make him understand how to make a map look better is to make the author fix these kind of things by himself because he will become self-aware of its mistakes.
anonymous_old
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anonymous_old

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

So, if a map has lots of 1-2 square grid inconsistancies, just tell the author about it and report just some examples.
IMHO the best way to make him understand how to make a map look better is to make the author fix these kind of things by himself because he will become self-aware of its mistakes.
Yes.

(*inconsistencies)
HarryOrunitia
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HarryOrunitia
I usually nazi mod when I notice something really unaligned when I play. Everything I notice in the editor usually doesn't matter or was done on purpose. But still, I really don't see anything wrong with nazi-modding. People can just ignore my post/don't give kudosu or whatever. And also, when I mod a map I also check everything else, like timing, spacing, spinners and breaks, hitsounds etc. I just want to fix every detail of a map, and sometimes that requires nazi modding too.
So, whiny mappers: everyone mods as he wants. If you don't like a mod post just ignore it.
Echo
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Echo
I'll also add posting an essay should be frowned upon - either upload a fixed copy of the map, or just tell the mapper to fix "everything" (with examples, of course).

I've done it before, but I know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of one of these too.
nardii
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nardii

eee wrote:

I still think of that as naz-eeemodding, anything that has to do with design issues and hitcircles (nothing to do with timing) is a nazi mod.
How did everyone miss this?

...I mean, what?
Ekaru
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Ekaru
This topic needs a sticky.

Want kudosu? Play a map that hasn't been modded yet. If you honestly want kudosu, look over my Pending maps' hitsounds. They suck, are easy to unsuck if you're not me, and will actually get you kudosu.

In some cases my hit circle can't align perfectly with the straight slider (it's perpendicular to the slider) because of how slider lengths work. If I do it as close I can while still being on the grid, please don't point it out. Not much I can do about it, and it's not like you *notice it*. You do notice shitty hitsounds though, so just point those out. Not thinks that don't matter, and sometimes make the map *worse*.

AKA read Saturos's post, he owned all you nazi mods. <3
Cheery
259 posts
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Cheery
Especially when the maps are bubbled..

:|
eee
692 posts
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eee
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mm201
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mm201
If your modding is something constructive that you feel the mapper deserves to know, go ahead and point it out. Even if it's a small flaw, it's better that they know about it than for it to go to rankdom with that flaw still within.

Of course, if it doesn't pop out at you as being a mistake, it probably isn't one, or is unimportant.

To Rolled's list of okay places to point out single grid differences, I would add cases where the notes are right next to each other and you can really notice if some are off by one grid. (They either overlap or have much more space between them.) I used to point these out individually, but it got tedious, so now I tell them about it more generally and list one or two examples.

Also note overlap if it's clear that the mapper's trying to avoid it.
Sleep Powder
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Sleep Powder
My nazi-mods =~= Maid Service Clean-up Time
( that was a similarity...I am not a girl cleaning stuff )
EDITED
Gabi
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Gabi
before i mod i usually play the map in solo, and if i notice something during that or anything else during the gameplay, i take a closer look in editor and then i comment on it.
Alace
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Alace
I find a funny thing
Many nazi-modders don`t care about the timing at all
They just do editor modding and try to find those 3.14159 grids issues
This is kinda stupid

Official Ranking Submission Criteria
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=439
READ THIS: All guidelines are exactly that: GUIDELINES. They are NOT rules and may be broken in special cases. If you are wanting to break a guideline, ask yourself only this: Does what I'm doing make sense? Is it more fun to play like this compared to if i had to stick to the guidelines? If you answer yes to both these questions then it is probably OK.
Everyone should read this before modding

Beatmap is a kind of art,here are no real rules in art
Every single mapper has his(her) own style
we should try to understand mapper`s style before modding
And plz don`t force other people to change their style (especially BATs)

In fact
I am kinda nazi at hitsounds and jump setting
But i alawys tell mappers (feel free to change i don`t force you)
That is the way i modding
blissfulyoshi
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blissfulyoshi
I am not exactly sure on my opinion on nazi modding even though I do a lot of it .
I just wanted to clarify a few things.

I don't think many people mod for kudosu! anymore. Under the current system, it has been proven that kudosu! serve very little purpose. They give the mapper extra stars that leads him nowhere. Once a map hits +20 priority, it is almost hit and miss for a lot of new mappers, and sometimes veteran mappers, to get a BAT to look at it.

I hear people suggest to go mod maps that are in the beatmap help section. This can become a very disheartening experience for newer modders. If a newer modder mods a known mapper's beatmap, it is as almost as hard to find a mistake in these beatmaps as a beatmap that was well modded already. As a result, newer modders will not be able to get kudosu from this source either.

The other scenario is the modder mods a beatmap by a newer beatmapper. The modder will probably easily find errors and can make a nice constructive post. The problem is quite a few new mappers do not check the map's thread very often and sometimes know very little on how the community works. As a result, the mapper does not always give kudosu!, might not update the map, not understand what the modder says, or a variety of a lot of other results. (I have modded random maps in the help section and received results like this more than once) This becomes a painful experience for a lot of new mappers unless the modder wants to mod out of pure good will.

The last popular suggestion for modding is hitsound suggestions. The problem with this is that not many people understand how hitsounds are supposed to contribute to the song. Some people like the music for the way it is and don't like hitsounds, some people don;t know you can change the volume of hitsounds, and some people don't understand where hitsounds are supposed to be used. This will lead the modder no where in creating a constructive post.

The probable answer for modders to learn how hitsounds are used is read other mods and play more maps. This solution is not very satisfactory since a lot of modders are too lazy to read that information. The few people who do read it might learn how to suggest hitsounds, but others will not understand how the hitsounds affected the music at all.

Sorry for the wall of text.
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Echo
Modding doesn't have to be specific.

"I think the section at 0:xx to 1:xx was a bit confusing, especially the jump at 1:xx. Maybe you should consider changing it?"

is a completely valid mod post for me.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Echo
Also, when modding, unless it's a CLEAR and OBVIOUS symmetrical error or something, posting "move this 1 grid to the left" is imo way too specific.

I prefer broader, more general mod posts which encourage creative improvements rather than specific posts which encourage systematic maps.

For example, I cringe every time I see a map where each beat makes a 0, 90 or 180 degree angle with the last beat (fully spaced, of course >.>)

Actually, that just led to an idea. How about we add a "creativity" requirement for ranked maps? *prepares to get flamed*
Starrodkirby86
osu! Alumni
3,739 posts
Here since the beginning
Starrodkirby86
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
blissfulyoshi
osu! Alumni
4,755 posts
Joined July 2008
blissfulyoshi

strager wrote:

@blissfulyoshi, No offsense, but that post was a little off-topic.

Also, I have to disagree with you a bit. Not even a fifth of the maps in Help/WIP are by pro mappers or are near rankability. New modders can take requests in #mod. This is useful because (a) the mapper (probably) cares about their map, (b) the modder and mapper can speak live if the modder has any questions, and (c) most requests in #mod are so the mapper gets mods, not stars or a BAT.
The main reason I did not bother mentioning #mod is because very few new mappers or modders know about #mod. Most ppl do know about channels besides #osu unless they actually explore a bit.

Sorry for going off topic, was trying to give my opinion on things stated earlier in the thread.

The only problem I have with creative requirement is who is the judge.
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
Here since the beginning
Echo

blissfulyoshi wrote:

The only problem I have with creative requirement is who is the judge.
Me ^^
m980
Elite Mapper
1,234 posts
Here since the beginning
m980
Have fun modding all the maps

I think Authentic Prettying Up should an exception.
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
4,432 posts
Here since the beginning
LuigiHann
I just got nazi-modded. Every item in the list began "align with..."

I feel violated
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

blissfulyoshi wrote:

If a newer modder mods a known mapper's beatmap, it is as almost as hard to find a mistake in these beatmaps as a beatmap that was well modded already.
There is always something about a map that can be done better. Even a beginner can make comments like Echo's "this doesn't flow very well," even if they can't spot specifics.

Echo wrote:

For example, I cringe every time I see a map where each beat makes a 0, 90 or 180 degree angle with the last beat (fully spaced, of course >.>)
Big square grids are bleh. But some 180s (when there's no overlap) can make clever traps, eg. (1) (3) (2), in a straight line with proper spacing.

Hit object overlap makes me cry.

LuigiHann wrote:

I just got nazi-modded. Every item in the list began "align with..."

I feel violated
Sounds like an SFG mod. :D I always counter with "no, that breaks symmetry with X," or "that causes overlap."

...which brings me back to the point that all but the most basic of modding will be suggestions which the mapper can decide whether or not to implement. By going too far into specifics, you begin to violate the mapper's style. (ie. list problems, not solutions.)
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Yuukari-Banteki

MetalMario201 wrote:

LuigiHann wrote:

I just got nazi-modded. Every item in the list began "align with..."

I feel violated
Sounds like an SFG mod. :D I always counter with "no, that breaks symmetry with X," or "that causes overlap."
i do NOT mod like that anymore, unless the alignment failure noticably disrupts the map
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
4,432 posts
Here since the beginning
LuigiHann
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp

Starrodkirby86 wrote:

Echo wrote:

Actually, that just led to an idea. How about we add a "creativity" requirement for ranked maps? *prepares to get flamed*
*anticipates to see a lot of Pending Beatmaps go down the drain if such policy is enforced*
Honestly, that would probably be an okay thing
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
4,432 posts
Here since the beginning
LuigiHann
Obviously the difficulty there would be enforcing it, since creativity is highly subjective, and we as a community can barely agree on something as black-and-white as a minimum spinner length.

Still, if you think map is boring, say so.
CheeseWarlock
osu! Alumni
1,185 posts
Joined May 2008
CheeseWarlock
Don't be afraid to say that a map lacks spice, and encourage the mapper to do something more interesting. Some instruction on "Creativity in Mapping" might be nice- just a few pointers and things to think about to make a map more fun, starting with an explanation of jumps and going from there.

And I wish we could mod for creativity, but everyone has their biases and it would be impossible to qualify maps even by an enormous list of rules. Unless we just go with "BAT word is the law, no explanation required", and if we do I don't really trust the entire BAT team to make good decisions on that.
Jarby
2,962 posts
Joined August 2008
Jarby
But why would anyone sticky this?
Neo@lex
1,345 posts
Here since the beginning
Neo@lex
Wrong forum.
Move this shit to Gameplay and Rankings.
Jenny
2,200 posts
Joined November 2010
Jenny
All Larto's fault I post in here but well, thread's topic is getting more and more noticable - gridnaziing becomes more and more popular and there's like nobody coming up with neat ideas for modding or improving a map, just "this is not symmetric" where it's not even meant to be or like "you have 0.98x spacing here but 1.03x on next note!!1"-shit.


PS: Necro
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish
Modding should be tailored to the map and mapper. I'd appreciate a grid error or misalignment pointed out on my map, but it's a waste of time for many others.

Posts with huge hitsound lists or lots and lots of the same sorts of specific things are much more of an issue - although it might improve the map, the mapper doesn't get anything from it. I like to think that every modder has a little wisdom to impart, and that every mod post can make the mapper a better one should they listen. It's a give a man a fish - teach a man to fish thing.
D33d
1,699 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Grid suggestions can be more or less useful depending on the context, but if a pattern looks like it should be structured and it's slightly off-kilter, then it should be fixed. Moreover, if a pattern looks sloppy/imperfect and symmetry would clearly work, then there's a good chance that it should be symmetrical. Really, asymmetrical patterns are much easier to bugger up than symmetrical ones.

I find it useless and petulant to whine about picky mods, because the mapper just needs to deny certain points with justification. A simple, "Some of your points are pretty subjective and I feel that applying them would compromise my map" would cover several suggestions and then the mapper could change more significant issues. When a modder lists a lot of points, they have decided that they're worth addressing--throwing them in their face by kicking up a fuss is a huge middle finger to somebody who's given more thought than, "Nice map! Star~" and they're listing everything that they can think of in order to improve a map.

Having said that, things such as very slight spacing changes have no bearing on the playability of a map and are often used in order to make patterns work, especially when using grid3. Even combo placement can have a notable effect, because combos show the player where phrases begin and end when they're applied properly. Sometimes, the wrong hitsounds can also put emphasis on the wrong parts of a phrase or otherwise startle the player. In excess, that could kill the feel of a map or otherwise prevent it from feeling as it could.

DEEDIT: Long lists of small changes can be usually simplified to general observations, with a few examples given in order to help the mapper. In general, this makes it possible to point out picky things without making it hard for the mapper to concentrate on important parts. The problem with omitting picky suggestions entirely is that there's a chance that the mapper might actually care enough about their map to apply them. If the mapper doesn't understand how to take "This section is hitsounded awkwardly, for example here," then they could always talk to the modder about it.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
In general, if you find yourself pointing out the exact same kind of mistake more than 5 times or so, it becomes less useful and you're better off directing the mapper on how to generally avoid that kind of mistake instead.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane
I always feel like nazi-modding sliders until the mapper makes them look nice. I know it's entirely pointless and it's just something that bugs me and shouldn't, but I spend too much time on it either way. I can't enjoy a map if I can't enjoy how it looks, to me it makes part of the flow.
Thankfully I very rarely mod, because I keep pointing things like that out but I don't think it's nazi-modding but rather map-polishing. You're turning into what looks like a rough draft to a final state. At least that's how I feel about the whole situation. So if it is nazi-modding then, well, to me it is useful, perhaps even necessary.
D33d
1,699 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Mr Color wrote:

I always feel like nazi-modding sliders until the mapper makes them look nice. I know it's entirely pointless and it's just something that bugs me and shouldn't, but I spend too much time on it either way. I can't enjoy a map if I can't enjoy how it looks, to me it makes part of the flow.
Thankfully I very rarely mod, because I keep pointing things like that out but I don't think it's nazi-modding but rather map-polishing. You're turning into what looks like a rough draft to a final state. At least that's how I feel about the whole situation. So if it is nazi-modding then, well, to me it is useful, perhaps even necessary.
Tidy, even sliders and patterns can certainly have a better effect on the feel of the map, as they make it feel more stable. Even chaotic patterns can still be tidy and solid, because angular structure that looks tight lends a satisfying edge to a map. A bit of thought towards the presentation of a map can make it stand out and make it look like the mapper really knows what they're doing.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Mr Color wrote:

I always feel like nazi-modding sliders until the mapper makes them look nice.
I know exactly what you mean. Quite a few of my recent modposts include slider fixes because they're not symmetrical, blankets can be made better, etc. Since that's the intention anyway, why not make it as good as possible?
D33d
1,699 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

those wrote:

Mr Color wrote:

I always feel like nazi-modding sliders until the mapper makes them look nice.
I know exactly what you mean. Quite a few of my recent modposts include slider fixes because they're not symmetrical, blankets can be made better, etc. Since that's the intention anyway, why not make it as good as possible?
Exactly. My approach to presentation in a map is based on how much it looks like it's trying to be fancy. If the mapper's making half-hearted blankets and big sliders which are supposed to look pretty, then the map's ugliness becomes painfully obvious. Even so, sometimes, if something looks a tiny bit off, making it absolutely perfect can be much more trouble than it's worth. When it boils down to taking everything out of grid snap, there's only so much that a mapper should have to put up with.
Cygnus
1,517 posts
Joined December 2011
Cygnus
Some nazi mods are useful too imo.
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest

Philippines wrote:

Some nazi mods are useful too imo.
says the guy who modded 100 maps in just a few days.
Miya
2,690 posts
Joined June 2011
Miya
I do some nazi mod too sometimes. I care about map aesthetic. If i found some pattern that's awkward because maybe it's mapper mistake, i will mention nazi mod. If we mention the reason nicely, i think people can understand and accept nazi mod too.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Miya wrote:

I do some nazi mod too sometimes. I care about map aesthetic. If i found some pattern that's awkward because maybe it's mapper mistake, i will mention nazi mod. If we mention the reason nicely, i think people can understand and accept nazi mod too.
This is mainly referring to the trend back then of people going, "This spacing is 1-grid off!" in an effort to get very easy kudosu. If it's for aesthetics then it's fine, but back then kudosu-whoring in this fashion was a real problem. Then again, that was back then, not now, but eh.
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Charles445

Ekaru wrote:

kudosu-whoring in this fashion was a real problem. Then again, that was back then, not now, but eh.
Nah that's still a problem today.

I personally don't mind nazi mods on my maps as long as they point out legitimate inconsistencies/problems. Extra polish is always nice.
D33d
1,699 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Kudosu-whoring is deplorable and just makes the mapper put in more unnecessary work. Pointing out a few small things is fine, but a mod which doesn't do anything to make the mapper reconsider their approach shouldn't earn kudosu. However, if a mod at least makes the mapper think and go over patterns, then kudosu would be nice. If it isn't given, then the mapper should explain why they didn't agree with anything.

Of course, flimsy excuses for being unyielding and then not giving kudosu are a huge pain and, even if a compromise is reached, will make me avoid a mapper's maps for an indeterminable amount of time. Seriously, don't do this.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Charles445 wrote:

Ekaru wrote:

kudosu-whoring in this fashion was a real problem. Then again, that was back then, not now, but eh.
Nah that's still a problem today.
I'm talking about an era where, like, one in every 4 or so mod posts looked like this:

00:03:736 (1) - Spacing
00:07:486 (4) - Spacing
00:16:391 (1) - Spacing, move 1 up
00:17:731 (1) - Spacing
00:27:628 (2) - Spacing, move 1 left
00:35:051 (1) - Spacing, move 1 down
00:38:453 (4) - 1 ms off
00:39:999 (1) - Spacing
00:49:896 (3) - Spacing
00:54:844 (1) - Spacing, move 1 down
01:00:721 (1) - Spacing
01:10:772 (2) - move 1 up
01:16:803 (2) - Spacing
01:24:535 (6) - Spacing

Best part is that most of the time you couldn't even figure out what their issue was!
Gonzvlo
osu! Alumni
2,896 posts
Joined January 2010
Gonzvlo
Old thread, modding has evolved ever since. However, this issue is well explained in the wiki, "Modding" article, "What to avoid in your mod post" section. https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Modding#What_to ... r_mod_post

Locking and changing to "Standard".
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