Everybody knows the Easy Mod isn't as good as it could be.
So why isn't the Easy Mod just a mirrored mod of HardRock, just like HalfTime is to DoubleTime?
It's time to remove the two life savers and the ridiculous amount of bigger circle size and less AR it gives you, and that's most likely the case for the OD and HP drain rate too.
The HardRock mod makes circles one step harder. The Easy mod makes circles many steps easier. It should only be one!
[02:36:22] Theodor Westin: the easy mod today makes the hardest circle size the second easiest
[02:36:22] Theodor Westin: which is crazy
[02:36:30] Theodor Westin: it skips too many
[02:36:33] David Gray: That is the point of easy mod.
[02:36:36] Theodor Westin: yes
[02:36:40] David Gray: To make them as large as possible.
[02:36:42] Theodor Westin: but it shouldnt skip THAT many
[02:36:50] David Gray: It's EXACTLY the opposite of hard rock.
[02:37:02] Theodor Westin: It can't be
[02:37:06] David Gray: Yes it should, because the circles are circle size 0 or whatever.
[02:37:39] Theodor Westin: but the HardRock mod makes circles one step harder, the easy mod makes stuff MANY steps easier
[02:37:42] Theodor Westin: it should be one step
[02:38:20] David Gray: Hard Rock is already hard enough with everything else and easy is supposed to make everything as painfully easy as possible.
[02:39:15] Theodor Westin: HardRock is suppose to make things harder. Easy mod is suppose to make things easier. Mirrored. But Easy mod makes everything TOO easy, which makes it impossible to play
[02:39:34] Theodor Westin: Have you ever played an Insane beatmap with Easy mod? It's too hard
[02:39:51] David Gray: Why would you ever play an insane with easy mod?
[02:39:54] David Gray: It makes no sense.
[02:39:59] Theodor Westin: because you want to make it easier
[02:40:10] David Gray: Any reduction in circle size or approach rate would make it ridiculous.
[02:40:17] Theodor Westin: for example, today many easy mods are used on TAG4s which is the hardest maps
[02:40:34] Theodor Westin: not by one step, but easy mod makes it too many
[02:40:38] David Gray: Easy mods are for novices.
[02:40:46] David Gray: Novices wouldn't play fast-paced maps.
[02:40:49] Theodor Westin: Well that's real nice.
[02:41:01] Theodor Westin: It should be for everyone.
[02:41:10] Theodor Westin: which the other mods are
[02:41:24] David Gray: Then it'd be a negligible reduction in difficulty, which wouldn't change the map that much.
[02:41:45] Theodor Westin: Just like HardRock
[02:41:59] Theodor Westin: but increase
[02:43:31] Theodor Westin: Half Time is for people who thinks the map is too fast
[02:43:33] David Gray: The thing is that, applying hard rock to the hardest map can only do so much until it's literally impossible to play, which is probably why it makes only a small change.
[02:43:39] Theodor Westin: Double Time for those who think it's too slow
[02:43:56] David Gray: Easy mod is always going to turn harder maps into a clusterfuck.
[02:44:12] Theodor Westin: It shouldn't. It's why so many people wanted it removed
[02:44:16] Theodor Westin: because of the clusterfuck
[02:44:19] David Gray: Their approach rate has to be set very precisely, otherwise they become too hard to read.
[02:44:26] David Gray: But it's not for harder maps!
[02:44:41] Theodor Westin: It should be used for harder maps! which it is for some
[02:44:44] David Gray: Like I said, any increase in circle size or approach rates would fuck them up.
[02:45:13] Theodor Westin: not by one step
[02:45:20] David Gray: Pretty sure it would.
[02:45:20] Theodor Westin: I can do that on my own in the editor
[02:45:22] Theodor Westin: No
[02:45:24] Theodor Westin: I've tried
[02:45:27] Theodor Westin: I did it in the editor
[02:45:34] Theodor Westin: I can't see shit when I play AR10
[02:45:38] Theodor Westin: I can if it is AR9
[02:45:41] Theodor Westin: got an B with AR9
[02:45:45] Theodor Westin: got an D with AR10
[02:45:56] David Gray: Nobody should ever use AR10 anyway, because it's unplayable.
[02:46:03] Theodor Westin: It is playable
[02:46:17] David Gray: My point is that, that shit should be modded out.
[02:46:22] Theodor Westin: It shouldn't
[02:46:35] Theodor Westin: If it is 250 bpm or something, then sure. Let the mapper use AR10 if they want
[02:46:46] David Gray: Isn't AR10 usually used because the mapper's an idiot who can't map without loads of overlaps?
[02:47:10] Theodor Westin: Hey, I couldn't see shit when I played AR9 before. There were some beatmaps I couldn't play mainly because it was AR9 instead of AR8
[02:47:24] Theodor Westin: Should AR9 maps be modded out to? So newbies can play them?
[02:47:44] David Gray: So that they're accessible to more players? Yes.
[02:48:05] Theodor Westin: The map is suppose to be that hard
[02:48:06] David Gray: If the likes of you can't read a map because of its approach rate, then something is seriously wrong.
[02:48:22] Theodor Westin: the easy mod wants to make it accessible for players who can't play them very well
[02:48:33] David Gray: Forcing difficulty by fucking up settings is never a good idea.
[02:48:51] Theodor Westin: There are always maps harder than what people can play
[02:48:57] Theodor Westin: doesnt mean they shouldnt play it
[02:49:02] Theodor Westin: they can use half time to play it
[02:49:09] Theodor Westin: or easy mod
[02:49:13] David Gray: Maybe easy mod's supposed to do that, but I can not imagine a fast-paced map playing well at all without loads of overlaps and confusing honeycombs happening.
[02:49:16] Theodor Westin: but the easy mod is too clusterfuck
[02:49:30] Theodor Westin: Easy Mod is old. It's time for a change.
[02:49:35] David Gray: Even with a small decrease.
[02:49:44] Theodor Westin: It can
[02:50:06] David Gray: I need the toilet
[02:50:08] Theodor Westin: Try for yourself
[02:50:13] Theodor Westin: I tried for myself
[02:50:20] Theodor Westin: lower ARs help if you can't do the hard one.
[02:50:22] David Gray: I have and it was awkward
[02:51:21] Theodor Westin: on a beatmap where you can't do the AR?
[02:53:07] Theodor Westin: Professional osu! players can do AR11, they can play up to 300 bpm. More and more maps are coming up for these players. But we the people who cannot play them very well, have to have our own chance at them. Just like half time does to beatmaps too fast.
[02:53:42] Theodor Westin: Half time makes things easier. Easy mod is suppose to make things easier, but it doesn't!
[02:53:51] Theodor Westin: It never does.
[02:53:58] Theodor Westin: Unless it's a 2 star beatmap
[02:54:12] Theodor Westin: which people only play the first month of their osu! playing or something
[02:54:19] Theodor Westin: but they dont even find easy beatmaps hard
[02:54:24] Theodor Westin: so they don't use the Easy Mod!
[02:54:37] Theodor Westin: the Easy Mod is only used on beatmaps which are batshitinsane
[02:54:40] Theodor Westin: like TAG4s
[02:55:16] Theodor Westin: the only way to use the Easy mod if for you to remember where the beats are
[02:55:20] Theodor Westin: and that's hard!
[02:57:05] David Gray: Holy shit, you sure like to talk.
[02:57:32] David Gray: What I learned from mapping for stream is that, if there's an option to make something easier, it should be really fucking easy for novices in particular.
[02:57:34] Theodor Westin: I just want you to understand the pain of using Easy mod ;___;
[02:58:00] David Gray: Increasing the circle size and approach rate by a step wouldn't make much of a difference to easy maps for new players.
[02:58:35] Theodor Westin: but who plays the game the most? Who makes the most points? Who presses the z/x buttons the most? Who spends the most time on osu? The professional players!
[02:58:57] Theodor Westin: There are more noobs than pros, but it doesnt mean the noobs play more!
[02:59:00] David Gray: And they're perfectly capable of playing without difficulty reductions.
[02:59:25] David Gray: Also, making the game as accessible to newbies as possible makes them more likely to play the game.
[02:59:27] Theodor Westin: If there is a Easy Mod which NOBODY uses, then I think you could change it so more people use it!
[02:59:37] Theodor Westin: Most players agree on that the Easy mod suck right now!
[02:59:43] David Gray: Pro players can use nofail to get the feel of a map properly.
[02:59:52] David Gray: Then see how much support the request gets.
[03:00:22] Theodor Westin: Can't you agree on that it makes it too easy?
[03:00:31] David Gray: That's entirely the point.
[03:00:37] Theodor Westin: Yes.
[03:00:46] David Gray: It turns harder maps into a horrible mess, but there are other mods for harder maps
[03:00:55] Theodor Westin: ._.
[03:01:01] Theodor Westin: don't ignore the problem
[03:01:03] Theodor Westin: Face it.
[03:01:04] Theodor Westin: Fix it.
[03:01:26] Theodor Westin: You can use Half time on harder maps. Why can't you use Easy mod?
[03:01:29] David Gray: There's not a whole lot I can do and I don't think that tailoring easy mod to harder maps would do much good.
[03:01:47] Theodor Westin: I'm not asking you to do anything
[03:01:50] Theodor Westin: I just want you to know
[03:02:00] David Gray: I know how harder maps play with easy mod.
[03:02:16] Theodor Westin: but you don't think it should be fixed?
[03:02:25] David Gray: Doesn't really concern me, no.
[03:02:34] Theodor Westin: Of course not, you don't play very hard beatmaps.
[03:02:36] David Gray: If I care enough about a harder map, then I'll practice it.
[03:02:53] David Gray: If it's hard to the point of being senseless, then I'll disregard it.
[03:03:14] Theodor Westin: well that's what most players do
[03:03:33] Theodor Westin: but let's open some doors, so more people can play it. so more people can enjoy
[03:04:53] Theodor Westin: Having a S on a hard map with Half time is better than having C with no mods.
[03:05:10] Theodor Westin: Everybody could agree on that.
[03:05:19] Theodor Westin: feels better
[03:05:27] David Gray: The fact is that those who are even playing harder maps would be capable of learning it without mods.
[03:05:51] Theodor Westin: they do that by playing other beatmaps and slowely climbing up
[03:05:53] David Gray: It's the new players who'd need that large margin of forgiveness.
[03:06:02] Theodor Westin: Why?
[03:06:19] Theodor Westin: they don't even use the damn mod
[03:06:30] Theodor Westin: If they do, they try it on hard maps
[03:06:41] Theodor Westin: but later discover that it has become a clusterfuck
17:53 <theowest> : Hey
17:54 <theowest> : You're the guy who think the Easy mod is perfectly fine right?
17:54 <bwross> : Yo
17:55 <bwross> : I think the Easy mod turns maps into a dog's breakfast and is the second WORST mod to make a map easier
17:55 <theowest> : what is the worst mod?
17:55 <bwross> : Flashlight... it's never helped that way for me
17:55 <theowest> : oh
17:56 <bwross> : DT, HD, HR have all made maps easier
17:56 <theowest> : but let's talk hidden
17:56 <theowest> : easier?
17:56 <theowest> : they make maps harder!
17:56 <bwross> : depends on the map
17:56 <theowest> : ...
17:56 <theowest> : are you serious?
17:56 <bwross> : yes
17:56 <theowest> : hidden requires you to remember where the beats were. that is HARD
17:57 <bwross> : it cleans up some maps
17:57 <theowest> : hardrock makes things faster, that is HARD
17:57 <theowest> : isn't it?
17:57 <theowest> : SOME MAPS
17:57 <theowest> : but it's main objective is to make it HARDER
17:57 <theowest> : that's what it is
17:57 <theowest> : if i didn't concentrate on where the beats were, then i wouldn't know where they were
17:58 <bwross> : the thing about hidden is that it gets easier with higher AR... you can use the circles disappearing right in front of you
17:58 <theowest> : no
17:58 <theowest> : they dissapear faster
17:58 <theowest> : if the AR confuses you then sure
17:58 <theowest> : but it's still HARD
17:58 <theowest> : why would it else give you extra points?
17:58 <bwross> : it helps with some maps... not many, but more than Easy
17:59 <theowest> : I'm here to talk about the easy mod
17:59 <theowest> : not the hard mods.
17:59 <bwross> : HR is my goto for making things easy... DT helps put some slow maps into my resounance range
17:59 <theowest> : ooh
17:59 <theowest> : skill is not something related to the hard mods.
18:00 <theowest> : your skill is individual
18:00 <theowest> : it gets easier for YOU
18:00 <theowest> : but not for people who hasnt got your skill
18:00 <theowest> : get it?
18:00 <theowest> : So it ISN'T an easy mod
18:00 <theowest> : it only is an easy mod for YOU
18:00 <theowest> : but it if was for EVERYONE
18:00 <theowest> : then it should be considered a easy mod
18:00 <bwross> : I discovered HR on my first day... started using it because it cleans things up...
18:01 <theowest> : ..................
18:01 <theowest> : oh wow.
18:01 <bwross> : separates circles, AR moves appearance closer to the beat
18:01 <theowest> : Good for you.
18:01 <theowest> : It's still your skill
18:01 <theowest> : It's still individual
18:01 <bwross> : I'm not the only one... most people learn from Oeundan 2 that Insane + Hidden is easy because of the faster AR
18:01 <theowest> : Now let's stop talking about this and start talking about that Easy mod.
18:02 <theowest> : MOST PEOPLE?
18:02 <bwross> : OK
18:02 <theowest> : Do you seriously think over 1 million people came from oeundan?
18:02 <theowest> : Hell no
18:02 <theowest> : Okay
18:02 <bwross> : Easy/Normal/Hard + Hidden is much harder
18:02 <theowest> : OK. EASY MOD
18:02 <theowest> : GO
18:02 <bwross> : I like the idea of choosing your own params
18:02 <theowest> : Why do you think the easy mod shouldn't be a mirrored version of the HardRock?
18:03 <bwross> : I'm not overly happy with HR
18:03 <theowest> : Okay
18:03 <theowest> : but let's be realistic
18:03 <theowest> : MOST PEOPLE ARE
18:03 <theowest> : MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THE EASY MOD
18:03 <theowest> : BUT MOST PEOPLE ARE WITH HARD ROCK
18:03 <theowest> : so
18:03 <theowest> : what can we do?
18:03 <theowest> : To change this?
18:03 <theowest> : make things right?
18:04 <theowest> : Mirror it just like half time and double time?
18:04 <theowest> : Oh wow! OMG it works!
18:04 <theowest> : It's fair now!
18:04 <theowest> : Everybody loves it!
18:04 <theowest> : or do they?
18:04 <theowest> : What do you think?
18:05 <bwross> : I'm not so sure...
18:05 <bwross> : I'd have to see it
18:05 <theowest> : You can test
18:05 <theowest> : In the editor
18:05 <theowest> : play the HARDEST beatmap you can think of
18:05 <theowest> : BUT
18:05 <theowest> : use ONE step easier settings
18:05 <theowest> : now try it
18:05 <theowest> : it becomes EASIER, doesn't it?
18:05 <bwross> : that's not the inverse of HR
18:05 <bwross> : HR is weirder
18:05 <theowest> : well almost
18:05 <theowest> : 1.6 ar easier, one step easier circle size
18:05 <bwross> : I wish HR was +1 to stats
18:05 <theowest> : THERE, fix'd
18:06 <theowest> : +1 what?
18:06 <bwross> : +1 to the params... it would be nice and predictable for AR
18:07 <theowest> : params? What is that?
18:07 <theowest> : params (C#)
18:07 <theowest> : I don't even know that shit.
18:07 <bwross> : the basic settings for the map: AR, DR, CS, OD
18:07 <theowest> : ah
18:07 <theowest> : Yeah
18:07 <theowest> : I wish that too
18:07 <theowest> : I wish hardRock would be 1+ to all them params
18:08 <theowest> : and I also with Easy would be 1- to all them params
18:08 <theowest> : What do you wish for Easy?
18:08 <bwross> : easy is tricky... I typically don't recomend beginners to play Easy maps
18:08 <theowest> : but let's try to make it NOT tricky
18:08 <bwross> : start with Normal... the slightly faster AR helps
18:08 <theowest> : how would you make it non-tricky?
18:09 <theowest> : yes, that's what most people do
18:09 <bwross> : what would be nice is to have a good AI that can do star ratings
18:10 <bwross> : then Easy could just reduce the stars by one (doing whatever is required with some preferences)
18:10 <theowest> : Let's not talk star ratings. We all know that isn't perfect either
18:10 <theowest> : that is sometimes very, very hard
18:10 <bwross> : the problem is essentially the same, its an unstable equillibrium
18:10 <theowest> : which could cause everything to be at the easiest setting
18:10 <theowest> : which would fuck everything up
18:10 <theowest> : and create a clusterfuck
18:10 <theowest> : Very unstable.
18:11 <theowest> : What can we do do make it stable?
18:12 <bwross> : nothing really... for some maps moving AR up makes it easier, other become easier when it goes down by 1
18:12 <theowest> : let's think of osu having just one map
18:12 <theowest> : and the easy mod are suppose to make that map EASIEr
18:12 <theowest> : and the hard mods are suppose to make that map HARDER
18:12 <theowest> : easy mods*
18:13 <theowest> : Now, what can we do to make that happen?
18:13 <bwross> : then there's essentially a U curve for things like AR... easy is somewhere in the middle, the ends are harder.
18:13 <bwross> : maybe more of a J
18:13 <theowest> : For some people
18:14 <bwross> : although if the map is busy, it would be a backwards one
18:14 <theowest> : that's all individual
18:14 <theowest> : true.
18:14 <bwross> : subjectivity is part of the instability
18:14 <theowest> : Really?
18:14 <theowest> : well yeah
18:14 <theowest> : but
18:14 <theowest> : hmm
18:15 <theowest> : how does one make osu! so that all players find easy equally easy and hard equally hard
18:15 <bwross> : it's really hard to come up with a package that will guarantee that a map is made easier
18:15 <theowest> : yeah
18:15 <theowest> : but couldnt we start by making easy a mirrored version of hardrock?
18:15 <theowest> : just in the meantime
18:15 <theowest> : of figuring something out
18:15 <theowest> : osu is far from perfect
18:15 <theowest> : but let's try to be one step closer
18:16 <bwross> : the inverse of HR's AR isn't exactly good for the job
18:16 <theowest> : I want to do something to make osu a bit better
18:16 <theowest> : for everyone
18:16 <theowest> : but it currently is WORSE than if it would be
18:18 <theowest> : Is it cool if I savelogs this?
18:18 <theowest> : oh and hardrocking AR10 makes the AR10
18:18 <theowest> : that is so stupid.
18:18 <bwross> : sure, go ahead
18:19 <theowest> : awesome.
osu! cannot make a sudden perfect change for the easy mod. The change I'm suggesting isn't perfect at all, but it sure as hell is better than the current one!
This Easy Mod fix is something we'll have to wait for. We won't be having it anytime soon.
It might never happen is nobody considers it.
So why isn't the Easy Mod just a mirrored mod of HardRock, just like HalfTime is to DoubleTime?
It's time to remove the two life savers and the ridiculous amount of bigger circle size and less AR it gives you, and that's most likely the case for the OD and HP drain rate too.
The HardRock mod makes circles one step harder. The Easy mod makes circles many steps easier. It should only be one!
[02:36:22] Theodor Westin: the easy mod today makes the hardest circle size the second easiest
[02:36:22] Theodor Westin: which is crazy
[02:36:30] Theodor Westin: it skips too many
[02:36:33] David Gray: That is the point of easy mod.
[02:36:36] Theodor Westin: yes
[02:36:40] David Gray: To make them as large as possible.
[02:36:42] Theodor Westin: but it shouldnt skip THAT many
[02:36:50] David Gray: It's EXACTLY the opposite of hard rock.
[02:37:02] Theodor Westin: It can't be
[02:37:06] David Gray: Yes it should, because the circles are circle size 0 or whatever.
[02:37:39] Theodor Westin: but the HardRock mod makes circles one step harder, the easy mod makes stuff MANY steps easier
[02:37:42] Theodor Westin: it should be one step
[02:38:20] David Gray: Hard Rock is already hard enough with everything else and easy is supposed to make everything as painfully easy as possible.
[02:39:15] Theodor Westin: HardRock is suppose to make things harder. Easy mod is suppose to make things easier. Mirrored. But Easy mod makes everything TOO easy, which makes it impossible to play
[02:39:34] Theodor Westin: Have you ever played an Insane beatmap with Easy mod? It's too hard
[02:39:51] David Gray: Why would you ever play an insane with easy mod?
[02:39:54] David Gray: It makes no sense.
[02:39:59] Theodor Westin: because you want to make it easier
[02:40:10] David Gray: Any reduction in circle size or approach rate would make it ridiculous.
[02:40:17] Theodor Westin: for example, today many easy mods are used on TAG4s which is the hardest maps
[02:40:34] Theodor Westin: not by one step, but easy mod makes it too many
[02:40:38] David Gray: Easy mods are for novices.
[02:40:46] David Gray: Novices wouldn't play fast-paced maps.
[02:40:49] Theodor Westin: Well that's real nice.
[02:41:01] Theodor Westin: It should be for everyone.
[02:41:10] Theodor Westin: which the other mods are
[02:41:24] David Gray: Then it'd be a negligible reduction in difficulty, which wouldn't change the map that much.
[02:41:45] Theodor Westin: Just like HardRock
[02:41:59] Theodor Westin: but increase
[02:43:31] Theodor Westin: Half Time is for people who thinks the map is too fast
[02:43:33] David Gray: The thing is that, applying hard rock to the hardest map can only do so much until it's literally impossible to play, which is probably why it makes only a small change.
[02:43:39] Theodor Westin: Double Time for those who think it's too slow
[02:43:56] David Gray: Easy mod is always going to turn harder maps into a clusterfuck.
[02:44:12] Theodor Westin: It shouldn't. It's why so many people wanted it removed
[02:44:16] Theodor Westin: because of the clusterfuck
[02:44:19] David Gray: Their approach rate has to be set very precisely, otherwise they become too hard to read.
[02:44:26] David Gray: But it's not for harder maps!
[02:44:41] Theodor Westin: It should be used for harder maps! which it is for some
[02:44:44] David Gray: Like I said, any increase in circle size or approach rates would fuck them up.
[02:45:13] Theodor Westin: not by one step
[02:45:20] David Gray: Pretty sure it would.
[02:45:20] Theodor Westin: I can do that on my own in the editor
[02:45:22] Theodor Westin: No
[02:45:24] Theodor Westin: I've tried
[02:45:27] Theodor Westin: I did it in the editor
[02:45:34] Theodor Westin: I can't see shit when I play AR10
[02:45:38] Theodor Westin: I can if it is AR9
[02:45:41] Theodor Westin: got an B with AR9
[02:45:45] Theodor Westin: got an D with AR10
[02:45:56] David Gray: Nobody should ever use AR10 anyway, because it's unplayable.
[02:46:03] Theodor Westin: It is playable
[02:46:17] David Gray: My point is that, that shit should be modded out.
[02:46:22] Theodor Westin: It shouldn't
[02:46:35] Theodor Westin: If it is 250 bpm or something, then sure. Let the mapper use AR10 if they want
[02:46:46] David Gray: Isn't AR10 usually used because the mapper's an idiot who can't map without loads of overlaps?
[02:47:10] Theodor Westin: Hey, I couldn't see shit when I played AR9 before. There were some beatmaps I couldn't play mainly because it was AR9 instead of AR8
[02:47:24] Theodor Westin: Should AR9 maps be modded out to? So newbies can play them?
[02:47:44] David Gray: So that they're accessible to more players? Yes.
[02:48:05] Theodor Westin: The map is suppose to be that hard
[02:48:06] David Gray: If the likes of you can't read a map because of its approach rate, then something is seriously wrong.
[02:48:22] Theodor Westin: the easy mod wants to make it accessible for players who can't play them very well
[02:48:33] David Gray: Forcing difficulty by fucking up settings is never a good idea.
[02:48:51] Theodor Westin: There are always maps harder than what people can play
[02:48:57] Theodor Westin: doesnt mean they shouldnt play it
[02:49:02] Theodor Westin: they can use half time to play it
[02:49:09] Theodor Westin: or easy mod
[02:49:13] David Gray: Maybe easy mod's supposed to do that, but I can not imagine a fast-paced map playing well at all without loads of overlaps and confusing honeycombs happening.
[02:49:16] Theodor Westin: but the easy mod is too clusterfuck
[02:49:30] Theodor Westin: Easy Mod is old. It's time for a change.
[02:49:35] David Gray: Even with a small decrease.
[02:49:44] Theodor Westin: It can
[02:50:06] David Gray: I need the toilet
[02:50:08] Theodor Westin: Try for yourself
[02:50:13] Theodor Westin: I tried for myself
[02:50:20] Theodor Westin: lower ARs help if you can't do the hard one.
[02:50:22] David Gray: I have and it was awkward
[02:51:21] Theodor Westin: on a beatmap where you can't do the AR?
[02:53:07] Theodor Westin: Professional osu! players can do AR11, they can play up to 300 bpm. More and more maps are coming up for these players. But we the people who cannot play them very well, have to have our own chance at them. Just like half time does to beatmaps too fast.
[02:53:42] Theodor Westin: Half time makes things easier. Easy mod is suppose to make things easier, but it doesn't!
[02:53:51] Theodor Westin: It never does.
[02:53:58] Theodor Westin: Unless it's a 2 star beatmap
[02:54:12] Theodor Westin: which people only play the first month of their osu! playing or something
[02:54:19] Theodor Westin: but they dont even find easy beatmaps hard
[02:54:24] Theodor Westin: so they don't use the Easy Mod!
[02:54:37] Theodor Westin: the Easy Mod is only used on beatmaps which are batshitinsane
[02:54:40] Theodor Westin: like TAG4s
[02:55:16] Theodor Westin: the only way to use the Easy mod if for you to remember where the beats are
[02:55:20] Theodor Westin: and that's hard!
[02:57:05] David Gray: Holy shit, you sure like to talk.
[02:57:32] David Gray: What I learned from mapping for stream is that, if there's an option to make something easier, it should be really fucking easy for novices in particular.
[02:57:34] Theodor Westin: I just want you to understand the pain of using Easy mod ;___;
[02:58:00] David Gray: Increasing the circle size and approach rate by a step wouldn't make much of a difference to easy maps for new players.
[02:58:35] Theodor Westin: but who plays the game the most? Who makes the most points? Who presses the z/x buttons the most? Who spends the most time on osu? The professional players!
[02:58:57] Theodor Westin: There are more noobs than pros, but it doesnt mean the noobs play more!
[02:59:00] David Gray: And they're perfectly capable of playing without difficulty reductions.
[02:59:25] David Gray: Also, making the game as accessible to newbies as possible makes them more likely to play the game.
[02:59:27] Theodor Westin: If there is a Easy Mod which NOBODY uses, then I think you could change it so more people use it!
[02:59:37] Theodor Westin: Most players agree on that the Easy mod suck right now!
[02:59:43] David Gray: Pro players can use nofail to get the feel of a map properly.
[02:59:52] David Gray: Then see how much support the request gets.
[03:00:22] Theodor Westin: Can't you agree on that it makes it too easy?
[03:00:31] David Gray: That's entirely the point.
[03:00:37] Theodor Westin: Yes.
[03:00:46] David Gray: It turns harder maps into a horrible mess, but there are other mods for harder maps
[03:00:55] Theodor Westin: ._.
[03:01:01] Theodor Westin: don't ignore the problem
[03:01:03] Theodor Westin: Face it.
[03:01:04] Theodor Westin: Fix it.
[03:01:26] Theodor Westin: You can use Half time on harder maps. Why can't you use Easy mod?
[03:01:29] David Gray: There's not a whole lot I can do and I don't think that tailoring easy mod to harder maps would do much good.
[03:01:47] Theodor Westin: I'm not asking you to do anything
[03:01:50] Theodor Westin: I just want you to know
[03:02:00] David Gray: I know how harder maps play with easy mod.
[03:02:16] Theodor Westin: but you don't think it should be fixed?
[03:02:25] David Gray: Doesn't really concern me, no.
[03:02:34] Theodor Westin: Of course not, you don't play very hard beatmaps.
[03:02:36] David Gray: If I care enough about a harder map, then I'll practice it.
[03:02:53] David Gray: If it's hard to the point of being senseless, then I'll disregard it.
[03:03:14] Theodor Westin: well that's what most players do
[03:03:33] Theodor Westin: but let's open some doors, so more people can play it. so more people can enjoy
[03:04:53] Theodor Westin: Having a S on a hard map with Half time is better than having C with no mods.
[03:05:10] Theodor Westin: Everybody could agree on that.
[03:05:19] Theodor Westin: feels better
[03:05:27] David Gray: The fact is that those who are even playing harder maps would be capable of learning it without mods.
[03:05:51] Theodor Westin: they do that by playing other beatmaps and slowely climbing up
[03:05:53] David Gray: It's the new players who'd need that large margin of forgiveness.
[03:06:02] Theodor Westin: Why?
[03:06:19] Theodor Westin: they don't even use the damn mod
[03:06:30] Theodor Westin: If they do, they try it on hard maps
[03:06:41] Theodor Westin: but later discover that it has become a clusterfuck
17:53 <theowest> : Hey
17:54 <theowest> : You're the guy who think the Easy mod is perfectly fine right?
17:54 <bwross> : Yo
17:55 <bwross> : I think the Easy mod turns maps into a dog's breakfast and is the second WORST mod to make a map easier
17:55 <theowest> : what is the worst mod?
17:55 <bwross> : Flashlight... it's never helped that way for me
17:55 <theowest> : oh
17:56 <bwross> : DT, HD, HR have all made maps easier
17:56 <theowest> : but let's talk hidden
17:56 <theowest> : easier?
17:56 <theowest> : they make maps harder!
17:56 <bwross> : depends on the map
17:56 <theowest> : ...
17:56 <theowest> : are you serious?
17:56 <bwross> : yes
17:56 <theowest> : hidden requires you to remember where the beats were. that is HARD
17:57 <bwross> : it cleans up some maps
17:57 <theowest> : hardrock makes things faster, that is HARD
17:57 <theowest> : isn't it?
17:57 <theowest> : SOME MAPS
17:57 <theowest> : but it's main objective is to make it HARDER
17:57 <theowest> : that's what it is
17:57 <theowest> : if i didn't concentrate on where the beats were, then i wouldn't know where they were
17:58 <bwross> : the thing about hidden is that it gets easier with higher AR... you can use the circles disappearing right in front of you
17:58 <theowest> : no
17:58 <theowest> : they dissapear faster
17:58 <theowest> : if the AR confuses you then sure
17:58 <theowest> : but it's still HARD
17:58 <theowest> : why would it else give you extra points?
17:58 <bwross> : it helps with some maps... not many, but more than Easy
17:59 <theowest> : I'm here to talk about the easy mod
17:59 <theowest> : not the hard mods.
17:59 <bwross> : HR is my goto for making things easy... DT helps put some slow maps into my resounance range
17:59 <theowest> : ooh
17:59 <theowest> : skill is not something related to the hard mods.
18:00 <theowest> : your skill is individual
18:00 <theowest> : it gets easier for YOU
18:00 <theowest> : but not for people who hasnt got your skill
18:00 <theowest> : get it?
18:00 <theowest> : So it ISN'T an easy mod
18:00 <theowest> : it only is an easy mod for YOU
18:00 <theowest> : but it if was for EVERYONE
18:00 <theowest> : then it should be considered a easy mod
18:00 <bwross> : I discovered HR on my first day... started using it because it cleans things up...
18:01 <theowest> : ..................
18:01 <theowest> : oh wow.
18:01 <bwross> : separates circles, AR moves appearance closer to the beat
18:01 <theowest> : Good for you.
18:01 <theowest> : It's still your skill
18:01 <theowest> : It's still individual
18:01 <bwross> : I'm not the only one... most people learn from Oeundan 2 that Insane + Hidden is easy because of the faster AR
18:01 <theowest> : Now let's stop talking about this and start talking about that Easy mod.
18:02 <theowest> : MOST PEOPLE?
18:02 <bwross> : OK
18:02 <theowest> : Do you seriously think over 1 million people came from oeundan?
18:02 <theowest> : Hell no
18:02 <theowest> : Okay
18:02 <bwross> : Easy/Normal/Hard + Hidden is much harder
18:02 <theowest> : OK. EASY MOD
18:02 <theowest> : GO
18:02 <bwross> : I like the idea of choosing your own params
18:02 <theowest> : Why do you think the easy mod shouldn't be a mirrored version of the HardRock?
18:03 <bwross> : I'm not overly happy with HR
18:03 <theowest> : Okay
18:03 <theowest> : but let's be realistic
18:03 <theowest> : MOST PEOPLE ARE
18:03 <theowest> : MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THE EASY MOD
18:03 <theowest> : BUT MOST PEOPLE ARE WITH HARD ROCK
18:03 <theowest> : so
18:03 <theowest> : what can we do?
18:03 <theowest> : To change this?
18:03 <theowest> : make things right?
18:04 <theowest> : Mirror it just like half time and double time?
18:04 <theowest> : Oh wow! OMG it works!
18:04 <theowest> : It's fair now!
18:04 <theowest> : Everybody loves it!
18:04 <theowest> : or do they?
18:04 <theowest> : What do you think?
18:05 <bwross> : I'm not so sure...
18:05 <bwross> : I'd have to see it
18:05 <theowest> : You can test
18:05 <theowest> : In the editor
18:05 <theowest> : play the HARDEST beatmap you can think of
18:05 <theowest> : BUT
18:05 <theowest> : use ONE step easier settings
18:05 <theowest> : now try it
18:05 <theowest> : it becomes EASIER, doesn't it?
18:05 <bwross> : that's not the inverse of HR
18:05 <bwross> : HR is weirder
18:05 <theowest> : well almost
18:05 <theowest> : 1.6 ar easier, one step easier circle size
18:05 <bwross> : I wish HR was +1 to stats
18:05 <theowest> : THERE, fix'd
18:06 <theowest> : +1 what?
18:06 <bwross> : +1 to the params... it would be nice and predictable for AR
18:07 <theowest> : params? What is that?
18:07 <theowest> : params (C#)
18:07 <theowest> : I don't even know that shit.
18:07 <bwross> : the basic settings for the map: AR, DR, CS, OD
18:07 <theowest> : ah
18:07 <theowest> : Yeah
18:07 <theowest> : I wish that too
18:07 <theowest> : I wish hardRock would be 1+ to all them params
18:08 <theowest> : and I also with Easy would be 1- to all them params
18:08 <theowest> : What do you wish for Easy?
18:08 <bwross> : easy is tricky... I typically don't recomend beginners to play Easy maps
18:08 <theowest> : but let's try to make it NOT tricky
18:08 <bwross> : start with Normal... the slightly faster AR helps
18:08 <theowest> : how would you make it non-tricky?
18:09 <theowest> : yes, that's what most people do
18:09 <bwross> : what would be nice is to have a good AI that can do star ratings
18:10 <bwross> : then Easy could just reduce the stars by one (doing whatever is required with some preferences)
18:10 <theowest> : Let's not talk star ratings. We all know that isn't perfect either
18:10 <theowest> : that is sometimes very, very hard
18:10 <bwross> : the problem is essentially the same, its an unstable equillibrium
18:10 <theowest> : which could cause everything to be at the easiest setting
18:10 <theowest> : which would fuck everything up
18:10 <theowest> : and create a clusterfuck
18:10 <theowest> : Very unstable.
18:11 <theowest> : What can we do do make it stable?
18:12 <bwross> : nothing really... for some maps moving AR up makes it easier, other become easier when it goes down by 1
18:12 <theowest> : let's think of osu having just one map
18:12 <theowest> : and the easy mod are suppose to make that map EASIEr
18:12 <theowest> : and the hard mods are suppose to make that map HARDER
18:12 <theowest> : easy mods*
18:13 <theowest> : Now, what can we do to make that happen?
18:13 <bwross> : then there's essentially a U curve for things like AR... easy is somewhere in the middle, the ends are harder.
18:13 <bwross> : maybe more of a J
18:13 <theowest> : For some people
18:14 <bwross> : although if the map is busy, it would be a backwards one
18:14 <theowest> : that's all individual
18:14 <theowest> : true.
18:14 <bwross> : subjectivity is part of the instability
18:14 <theowest> : Really?
18:14 <theowest> : well yeah
18:14 <theowest> : but
18:14 <theowest> : hmm
18:15 <theowest> : how does one make osu! so that all players find easy equally easy and hard equally hard
18:15 <bwross> : it's really hard to come up with a package that will guarantee that a map is made easier
18:15 <theowest> : yeah
18:15 <theowest> : but couldnt we start by making easy a mirrored version of hardrock?
18:15 <theowest> : just in the meantime
18:15 <theowest> : of figuring something out
18:15 <theowest> : osu is far from perfect
18:15 <theowest> : but let's try to be one step closer
18:16 <bwross> : the inverse of HR's AR isn't exactly good for the job
18:16 <theowest> : I want to do something to make osu a bit better
18:16 <theowest> : for everyone
18:16 <theowest> : but it currently is WORSE than if it would be
18:18 <theowest> : Is it cool if I savelogs this?
18:18 <theowest> : oh and hardrocking AR10 makes the AR10
18:18 <theowest> : that is so stupid.
18:18 <bwross> : sure, go ahead
18:19 <theowest> : awesome.
osu! cannot make a sudden perfect change for the easy mod. The change I'm suggesting isn't perfect at all, but it sure as hell is better than the current one!
This Easy Mod fix is something we'll have to wait for. We won't be having it anytime soon.
It might never happen is nobody considers it.