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[Rule] Hitcircles must never be hidden under slidertracks

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HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

mm201 wrote:

Guideline: Avoid stacking things on slider ends in Normal and Easy difficulties. It can be hard for beginners to tell the timing of these objects.

Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects. It's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot.
1st) I would agree with those as Recommendation, you're pratically using only Guidelines(all guideline in general) that are broken on 99%, of cases without serious problems.
2nd) Nobody noticed the 1st being included in the 2nd guideline

Stacking under sliderends=stacking under objects.
Plus it isn't something to be completely prohibited.

Add Recommendations, the add something like that (still need grammar corrections)
Avoid covering objects with other objects in easier difficulties. They can result hard to see, especially if overused, examples are long stacks or even stacks not cued to the song or mapping style.
Last edited by HakuNoKaemi , edited 1 time in total.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Most people consider stacking to be different from overlap.
If something is true for 99% of maps, it's fine to be a guideline.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I don't think a map should have fully hidden notes under slidertracks in most cases for normal and below. I say this for three reasons.

1. It can be considered hidden and thus unrankable.

2. It can be hard to read ahead of time. Patterns should be identifiable on a Normal setting, and always on an easy setting. Only certain approaches to flow and note placement would allow proper readability.

3. I find most cases of overlap as ugly. People shouldn't have to deal with approach circle spam when moving along the slider track.


We shouldn't give mappers full right to make whatever confusing pattern overlap in their simpler difficulties. It is often those difficulties that are most likely to have ugly overlap. By having this rule in place we can have something to back our advice when people try to map their way out of a corner by overlapping notes in a strange and unplayable way. Overlaps should be the exception and not the standard IMO.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

TheVileOne wrote:

1. It can be considered hidden and thus unrankable.
I disagree strongly. Hidden is a ranked difficulty.

TheVileOne wrote:

2. It can be hard to read ahead of time.
This is the sole reason for the rule/guideline.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Those amendments sound great as guidelines. It might be worth adding something about hiding circles under short sliders in particular, because that's when hitbursts obscure approach circles even further. In particular, high approach rates make approach circles smaller, which means that they're less likely to be exposed for long.

Also, while it is definitely worth trying to cast one's mind beyond their own playing ability, mappers should not conform to trends willy nilly. This is how silly things become commonplace. Besides, a good mapper will be able to use their own tricks, before eventually relying less on what they see in other maps. Either way, it's reasonable to suggest that mappers map what they can play (or, if nothing else, what they can read easily). This way, the the mapper would be much more likely to make a coherent map, especially because it'd be relatively simple and easy to read.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
so, we discuss on deleting one unusefull rule and we get 2 unuseful guidelines...

funny
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
...It's demoting one unenforceable rule to guidelines? I see nothing wrong with it. Hiding circles under the middle of slider tracks is pretty silly in itself and should be discouraged. I shouldn't need to explain why.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

D33d wrote:

Hiding circles under the middle of slider tracks is pretty silly in itself and should be discouraged. I shouldn't need to explain why.
It has already been discussed to death in the thread. Haku has made the argument that it's not hard to do, and has proof from newbies who also do not think it's hard to do. No amount of logical discussion is going to change anyone's mind in this thread.

Everyone agrees that this is a bad rule, however, and should at least be replaced either with one guideline or with the 2 guidelines mm201 suggested.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I guess I'm not part of everyone. We should not make a defense for unappealing sliders to come into play.

Why?

There is hardly a need for these kind of patterns outside of an insane. If you do so then the AR of the pattern will spam the approach circle over the slider track. Why should we allow this?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

TheVileOne wrote:

If you do so then the AR of the pattern will spam the approach circle over the slider track. Why should we allow this?
Because it's fun to play.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

ziin wrote:

Haku has made the argument that it's not hard to do, and has proof from newbies who also do not think it's hard to do.
If Haku has proof of newbies that don't think it's hard to do i have proof of newbies that think it's hard to do, by watching them play it myself when they were playing this game for the first time when i showed it to them (some IRL friends).
GigaClon
168 posts
Joined September 2011
GigaClon
I think that hitcircle under the body of the slider is ugly and nasty but circles under the slider end is similar to regular stacking and is perfectly fine.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
I made non-payers read many rules, and they think they're nosense
GigaClon
168 posts
Joined September 2011
GigaClon
of course non-players think they are non-sense because they have never played the game. Besides you are getting off point, this thread is to discuss this particular rule and not all rules
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Any objections to amending the rules to:

mm201 wrote:

Guideline: Avoid stacking things on slider ends in Normal and Easy difficulties. It can be hard for beginners to tell the timing of these objects.

Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects. It's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I dont have any objections with that.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
That should be good enough to prevent horrible overlaps, with nothing left to the imagination. Please do it.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
But if we do that, people will take the guideline as not absolute and thus automatically deny any attempt at bringing up the approach circle issue. At least we have the authority to say it's not allowed with the curent ruleset. If we don't the supporters are going to abuse it and bring up reasons why they can abuse it. Because even one case of approach circle spam is uncalled for in a ranked beatmap and one example isn't considered overdoing it.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I'd make it a heavily enforced guideline, which can only be broken if there is absolutely nowhere else that a circle could go. Given that there's probably always anywhere else to place an object than under a slider track, this should be very easy to enforce.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
Guidelines shouldn't be broken under normal circumstances. You seem to think that guidelines are just throwaway rules that don't affect anyone because they don't matter.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
arleady rejected.

This shall go into Recommendation if you want. Not Guidelines
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
You never gave any rationale.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

ziin wrote:

Guidelines shouldn't be broken under normal circumstances. You seem to think that guidelines are just throwaway rules that don't affect anyone because they don't matter.
Mappers seem to use guidelines as an excuse to weasel out of changing something, before a benevolent BAT lets the mapper keep that something by ranking the map. Sometimes, even MATs or BATs might make unreasonable suggestions, but if it's an issue that is inexcusable or is disagreed with by several people, then there should be a stricter enforcement of the guidelines.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Why can't we just adjust the rule to let Hard's do it. I don't think hidden approach circles have any place in Easy/Normal modes. Hards/Insanes could be allowed within reason.

If we allow this to be added in Normals or lower, then it will just further downgrade our standards of what's acceptable. The beatmapper doesn't need to have hard to read transitions in their normal difficulties.

My two cents is that the rule should stay, but the part applying to partially obscure hitcircles should go, because it's vague. We do not have a reference point on what's partially hidden. I think that it should be clarified that a hitcircle that is 80 percent or more hidden under the slider track is unrankable.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

TheVileOne wrote:

this needs to be a rule

D33d wrote:

this needs to be a rule

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

this shouldn't even be restricted in the slightest
And this is why we can't have nice things. Guideline is middle ground. Deal with it. Or vote that song 1 and move along. It's only a game, folks.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
for Guidelines and Rules it should work too right?

It's only a game, folks.
being a game do mean rules and guideline are really stupid like this.

You never gave any rationale.
Read my older post. It's starting to get me bored saying the same thing over and over.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

1st) I would agree with those as Recommendation, you're pratically using only Guidelines(all guideline in general) that are broken on 99%, of cases without serious problems.
2nd) Nobody noticed the 1st being included in the 2nd guideline
You mean this?
I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

mm201 wrote:

Guideline: Avoid stacking things on slider ends in Normal and Easy difficulties. It can be hard for beginners to tell the timing of these objects.

Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects. It's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot.
1st) I would agree with those as Recommendation, you're pratically using only Guidelines(all guideline in general) that are broken on 99%, of cases without serious problems.
2nd) Nobody noticed the 1st being included in the 2nd guideline
Stacking under sliderends=stacking under objects.
Plus it isn't something to be completely prohibited.

Add Recommendations, the add something like that (still need grammar corrections)
Avoid covering objects with other objects in easier difficulties. They can result hard to see, especially if overused, examples are long stacks or even stacks not cued to the song or mapping style.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
Guideline 1 covers Normal and Easy. Can be a guideline, easily.
Guideline 2 covers all difficulties. Too vague to be a guideline, too easily broken.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Overlapping isn't vague at all. I could very easily write an aimod module that spots overlaps and categorizes them based on how severe they are.

#2 is also a catch-all for existing rules including hitburst coverage and unseeable slider tracks--things which there are currently RULES against. Downgrading a RULE to a RECOMMENDATION is just excessive.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
downgrading a non-wanted heavy rule for most difficulties to a light recommendation for easier diffs is.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

mm201 wrote:

Overlapping isn't vague at all. I could very easily write an aimod module that spots overlaps and categorizes them based on how severe they are.
I see #2 as a guideline against tornado combos and stacking objects underneath slider ends, both of which are commonly used and should never be disallowed. If that is not the intention of the guideline, I need and example of what it disallows.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Tornados should be okay. Some clarification might be needed. I don't like going into too much detail because it tends to be off-putting, even if the phrasing is more tolerant.Stacks should be considered separately.

Thank you for being the first person to say anything constructive about this guideline.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

mm201 wrote:

Downgrading a RULE to a RECOMMENDATION is just excessive.
Depends. It has already been established that having stuff behind slider tracks is perfectly readable and ok to do in higher diffs, it's just that certain individuals dislike to have that. When it becomes unreadable, then it becomes a problem, however that is already caught in the modding process. While readability is subjective, clusterfucks are quite obvious and should be avoided anyway, if anything for cosmetic reasons.

Basically what everyone asked here was the rule to be abolished, and instead we're changing it into 2 parts, a guideline and a recommendation, and I see nothing wrong with it.

edit: will throw some examples in a bit.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
After-Spinner notes being covered by Spinner theirselves is another example. Antijumps are another example.
Still not constructive?
A better wording could maybe be better, but my idea is to make peoples AVOID using patterns like that randomly( they are good mostly and easy to link to music and graphic cues, as so, it's better to make it a recommendation)
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Okay let's add a condition to the second one, "completely covered up for the majority of the object's lifetime, enough that a reasonable player would have a hard time noticing the existence of the object."

Those examples are fine and shouldn't be included in the guideline, and I never had any intention to include them.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Avoid covering objects with other objects too much especially in easier difficulties. They can result hard to see, especially if overused, examples are long stacks or even stacks not cued to the song or mapping style.
Still proposing this as a Recommendation. Added "especially"
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
No. Covering gameplay elements in easier difficulties shouldn't be done at all, I thought we already came to a conclusion about that. Stacking =/= covering. The only exception I would throw here is having a back and forth pattern, and that would be limited to normal difficulties. Such patterns can be considered both stacking and covering, making it grey area.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
"Too much" is subjective. If one is considered a bad case that affects readability then it's an issue. Whether the mapper does it many times or just once, that's irrelevant, also covering objects with objects is too vague. It has to be sliders or hitbursts, because excessive stacks is very vague and should be treat very differently than the other cases Also it's "They can result in hard to see, "especially if overused" < redundant. Also stacks don't often result in hard to see cases.

I don't really think that should even be mentioned. Because it really depends on the song and how far the notes are apart. You couldn't even recommend it for every case. Keep that in mind that recommendations must be made according to all situations or most situations, and stacking anything on anything just doesn't apply in that way IMO.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Avoid covering objects with other objects many times, especially in easier difficulties. They can result hard to see, especially if overused, examples are long stacks or even stacks not cued to the song or mapping style.
Still proposing this as a Recommendation. Added "especially"
that part is important, as stacking cued to mapping style (symmetry, pattern similiarity) or music is easier to spot.
A Recommendation can be vague, I'm just making one recommendation out of two guideline.

(anyway, corrected one part...)
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