I disagree, simply because most of the inputs are the same does not mean you'll get the same result. As someone stated before, this is a rhythm game, and as such you should be listening to the music. You, as the player, are supposed to listen to the music and make the judgement call as to when a note should be hit. That's just my opinion though.Lybydose wrote:
Ok, assume the sliders in each picture are moving at the exact same rate. The slider ball that's completely worthless for judging approach rate makes it to the end of the slider at the same time in both screenshots. Does nothing at all to assist in judging the timing of any notes after it.
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[Rule] Hitcircles must never be hidden under slidertracks
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I can't agree moreGarven wrote:
Ｗｅ ｓｈｏｕｄｎ’ｔ ｃａｔｅｒ ｍａｐｐｉｎｇ ｒｕｌｅｓ ｔｏ ｍｏｄｓ
This post actually solved this topic (and all others like this)
BTW. I agree your propose Ziin
Topic Starter
I don't always play with the music on. I do not think the same as the mapper. I would put notes in different places. Your ears have little to do with it, as there's no way you can hear something, then react within the 20 ms window afterwards. What you're doing is guessing what's coming next based on your previous experiences while adding to that visual clues such as approach circles, differences in approach circles, and spacing.
Stacked slider ends are anti-jumps without the benefit of an approach circle to compare it to. Circles under sliders are hidden notes with only the approach circle letting the player know where it is. These facts make it harder than normal to hit, should be considered advanced notes, and kept to a minimum in lower difficulties.
Stacked slider ends are anti-jumps without the benefit of an approach circle to compare it to. Circles under sliders are hidden notes with only the approach circle letting the player know where it is. These facts make it harder than normal to hit, should be considered advanced notes, and kept to a minimum in lower difficulties.
bullshit, pretty much
I asked people who started playing the game some hours before and they say they're easy to start playing.
I asked people who started playing the game some hours before and they say they're easy to start playing.
I think that all mappers should assume that the people will play the map with the music on. I am a mid level player, and I have never had any problem with the circles stacked at the end of slider tracks so long as they are consistent with good musical backing. Its not as easy as nonstacked but it shouldn't be banned. Lots of the guidelines can be summed up as "Don't be stupid, and follow the music".
^yeah true.
Topic Starter
why?HakuNoKaemi wrote:
bullshit, pretty much
Don't make yourself decide what's good for newbie, ask them.
I did ask newbies, no one complained about it.
I did ask newbies, no one complained about it.
Not every person is the same. When you have a standard, it has to cover pretty much everything, even those 1% cases that will have problems with it. That's why it exists.
On another note, sliderball does have the potential to tell you about stacks, but in most cases that's not true. First of all, insanes are quite fast and you don't really have alot of time to think. When you are forced to think, then the pattern is just bad because that makes it unintuitive. Second, not every map has the same SV. Some maps have ultrahigh SV, some maps have ultralow SV, some change the SV during play, etc, the point is, there is no standard here. Just because most people prefer to have the same slider speed as approach rate speed doesn't mean that everyone will do this.
Stacking 2 1/4 notes under a slider end is ok if they are 1/4 after the slider, that is sort of intuitive. Any other time (depends on the AR and SV obviously, which can sometimes make 1/1 perfectly readable) is not, in my eyes.
Also, for easy and normal diffs, I agree with stacking consistency, however I prefer that 1/1 are not stacked at all (some special cases obviously, but not in general), and 1/2 could be stacked.
There are always special cases and everyone wants to be special too, I hope you see why this won't work.
On another note, sliderball does have the potential to tell you about stacks, but in most cases that's not true. First of all, insanes are quite fast and you don't really have alot of time to think. When you are forced to think, then the pattern is just bad because that makes it unintuitive. Second, not every map has the same SV. Some maps have ultrahigh SV, some maps have ultralow SV, some change the SV during play, etc, the point is, there is no standard here. Just because most people prefer to have the same slider speed as approach rate speed doesn't mean that everyone will do this.
Stacking 2 1/4 notes under a slider end is ok if they are 1/4 after the slider, that is sort of intuitive. Any other time (depends on the AR and SV obviously, which can sometimes make 1/1 perfectly readable) is not, in my eyes.
Also, for easy and normal diffs, I agree with stacking consistency, however I prefer that 1/1 are not stacked at all (some special cases obviously, but not in general), and 1/2 could be stacked.
While this is a good point, I don't think it will work. You can go ahead and tell the mapper that it's not intuitive and doesn't fit the music and he will tell you just the opposite. That will create a pretty meaningless conflict.GigaClon wrote:
I think that all mappers should assume that the people will play the map with the music on. I am a mid level player, and I have never had any problem with the circles stacked at the end of slider tracks so long as they are consistent with good musical backing. Its not as easy as nonstacked but it shouldn't be banned. Lots of the guidelines can be summed up as "Don't be stupid, and follow the music".
There are always special cases and everyone wants to be special too, I hope you see why this won't work.
Wait are you saying that you should standardize everything in mapping? oh kk then like 99% of maps are fked right because of the 1%? Sounds good k.
As now rules and guideline are not anyway like a standard however (they don't fit more than 2% of cases, i must say)
And remember that trying to feel like a newbie player is impossible for one that has played much.
And remember that trying to feel like a newbie player is impossible for one that has played much.
Did you even read my post? Do you find anything unreasonable in my post?YodaSnipe wrote:
Wait are you saying that you should standardize everything in mapping? oh kk then like 99% of maps are fked right because of the 1%? Sounds good k.
Please don't act hostile where it's not needed. If you find anything you disagree with, discuss it further.
In any case this has drifted far much off topic. The said rule in the topic should be removed or moved to a guideline affecting lower diffs.
lolcubes simply describe what a "standard" is.
A standard should cover ALL cases, as now most rules cover less than half cases.
I saw good uses of the burai sliders in the past, while rules are prrohibiting it.
I saw good uses of hold sliders in the past, while rules are prohibiting it.
I saw no one give a mo' about slidertracks-hidden circle, while rules are prohibiting it.
This make you know how much rules are NOT to be taken as standards
A standard should cover ALL cases, as now most rules cover less than half cases.
I saw good uses of the burai sliders in the past, while rules are prrohibiting it.
I saw good uses of hold sliders in the past, while rules are prohibiting it.
I saw no one give a mo' about slidertracks-hidden circle, while rules are prohibiting it.
This make you know how much rules are NOT to be taken as standards
Standards like these ruin this game because all the maps will be identical in playthrough.
I'm sorry, it seems we are misunderstanding each other. What do you find unacceptable with having stacking consistency in normal diffs (pick either 1/2 or 1/1 to stack), no stacking in easy diffs (no brainer really), and do whatever you want in hard/insane?YodaSnipe wrote:
Standards like these ruin this game because all the maps will be identical in playthrough.
Because that is what I was saying and you weren't specific in your last post at all.
Oh yeah, misunderstanding my bad. nvm.
Topic Starter
I don't really understand this. Are you saying that most of the rules are not good because there are exceptions, or that we don't have enough rules to cover all cases? We have too many rules, and many of them can be combined.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
A standard should cover ALL cases, as now most rules cover less than half cases.
There is no good use of burai sliders. Hold sliders have their own problems, and the only reason people want them is because of how they "feel", not how they play.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
I saw good uses of the burai sliders in the past, while rules are prohibiting it.I saw good uses of hold sliders in the past, while rules are prohibiting it.
I don't know what a mo' is, but I'll give one. As a newbie I hated not knowing where/when the next note is. I still hate not knowing where/when the next note is. I have thoroughly explained why that is the case already.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
I saw no one give a mo' about slidertracks-hidden circle, while rules are prohibiting it.
the 99% of maps fit the standard. Most of the time, the rules/guidelines are created for the 1% anyway.YodaSnipe wrote:
Wait are you saying that you should standardize everything in mapping? oh kk then like 99% of maps are fked right because of the 1%? Sounds good k.
Ranked maps have always had high standards, and when a certain style is found to have a technical problem with the game, it is disallowed. If you have a problem with the standard, you need to make an argument for why the problem is not a problem at all.YodaSnipe wrote:
Standards like these ruin this game because all the maps will be identical in playthrough.
All?lolcubes wrote:
I'm sorry, it seems we are misunderstanding each other. What do you find unacceptable with having stacking consistency in normal diffs (pick either 1/2 or 1/1 to stack), no stacking in easy diffs (no brainer really), and do whatever you want in hard/insane?YodaSnipe wrote:
Standards like these ruin this game because all the maps will be identical in playthrough.
Because that is what I was saying and you weren't specific in your last post at all.
If something feel good, it play good actually. The problem is something that feel bad, because it surely play bad...
we got offtopic anyway. You guys got my idea and I won't actually change it.
I didn't think notes under slider ends was such a big deal. Sometimes it was annoying, but in each case it was hard plus difficulties, and almost always 1/4th notes after the slider.
The rule is vague and obviously not well enforced. There are a lot of examples of maps that do it well. With this regard I can't see it as a rule as much as a guideline.
The rule is vague and obviously not well enforced. There are a lot of examples of maps that do it well. With this regard I can't see it as a rule as much as a guideline.
oh ziin I didn't realize you were one of those "If it's ranked it makes sense/is right" /lost respect
Hold on, was the entire point of the thread to talk about circles under sliderends, or is it actually to discuss things such as this? 
That sort of thing's a bitch to read, especially if a lot of an approach circle becomes obscured, which kind of contravenes the argument of YOU MUST READ EVERYTHING BY THE APPROACH CIRCLES. It'd be even worse with opaque sliders.
That sort of thing's a bitch to read, especially if a lot of an approach circle becomes obscured, which kind of contravenes the argument of YOU MUST READ EVERYTHING BY THE APPROACH CIRCLES. It'd be even worse with opaque sliders.
Well while the sightreading is subjective (but there is a limit to it ofc), cases like this would be handled on a case per case basis. If it's really stupid and awkward it would probably be requested to be changed, but a circle on its own under a slider track is not really a problem for higher diffs. Atleast that's the way I see it. Currently circles under slider starts are allowed and they are little to no different than circles under slider tracks (im reapeating myself again ;x;), besides, if they are slightly misaligned they are actually visible.
Clusterfucks are handled differently anyway.
Clusterfucks are handled differently anyway.
I just think that, even with a sliver of a hit circle visible, overlaps like that are overly harsh. I'm pretty capable of playing bullshitty maps, but I think it's fair to say that the average player shouldn't be expected to look for circles under sliders when a pattern has moved away from the slider, especially if a hitburst covers some of the approach circle.
I always think if a map that I can pass and get B, then at least 200 players can easily FC it(even in the first try).
Never overestimate your playing skills, since you are a mapper you will lost the time to practice it. Those patterns you think impossible are actually playable, including the situation that a circle under a slidertrack.
In my opinion we'd to conform to the developing trend but not the stubborn thoughts in our mind.
Never overestimate your playing skills, since you are a mapper you will lost the time to practice it. Those patterns you think impossible are actually playable, including the situation that a circle under a slidertrack.
In my opinion we'd to conform to the developing trend but not the stubborn thoughts in our mind.
In fact, like this is better.
Guideline: Avoid stacking things on slider ends in Normal and Easy difficulties. It can be hard for beginners to tell the timing of these objects.
Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects. It's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot.
This sounds much better
Agreed with those.
1st) I would agree with those as Recommendation, you're pratically using only Guidelines(all guideline in general) that are broken on 99%, of cases without serious problems.mm201 wrote:
Guideline: Avoid stacking things on slider ends in Normal and Easy difficulties. It can be hard for beginners to tell the timing of these objects.
Guideline: Avoid covering up objects too much with hitbursts, slider tracks, and other objects. It's hard to see them if there's too many things happening in one spot.
2nd) Nobody noticed the 1st being included in the 2nd guideline
Stacking under sliderends=stacking under objects.
Plus it isn't something to be completely prohibited.
Add Recommendations, the add something like that (still need grammar corrections)
Avoid covering objects with other objects in easier difficulties. They can result hard to see, especially if overused, examples are long stacks or even stacks not cued to the song or mapping style.
Most people consider stacking to be different from overlap.
If something is true for 99% of maps, it's fine to be a guideline.
If something is true for 99% of maps, it's fine to be a guideline.
I don't think a map should have fully hidden notes under slidertracks in most cases for normal and below. I say this for three reasons.
1. It can be considered hidden and thus unrankable.
2. It can be hard to read ahead of time. Patterns should be identifiable on a Normal setting, and always on an easy setting. Only certain approaches to flow and note placement would allow proper readability.
3. I find most cases of overlap as ugly. People shouldn't have to deal with approach circle spam when moving along the slider track.
We shouldn't give mappers full right to make whatever confusing pattern overlap in their simpler difficulties. It is often those difficulties that are most likely to have ugly overlap. By having this rule in place we can have something to back our advice when people try to map their way out of a corner by overlapping notes in a strange and unplayable way. Overlaps should be the exception and not the standard IMO.
1. It can be considered hidden and thus unrankable.
2. It can be hard to read ahead of time. Patterns should be identifiable on a Normal setting, and always on an easy setting. Only certain approaches to flow and note placement would allow proper readability.
3. I find most cases of overlap as ugly. People shouldn't have to deal with approach circle spam when moving along the slider track.
We shouldn't give mappers full right to make whatever confusing pattern overlap in their simpler difficulties. It is often those difficulties that are most likely to have ugly overlap. By having this rule in place we can have something to back our advice when people try to map their way out of a corner by overlapping notes in a strange and unplayable way. Overlaps should be the exception and not the standard IMO.
Topic Starter
I disagree strongly. Hidden is a ranked difficulty.TheVileOne wrote:
1. It can be considered hidden and thus unrankable.
This is the sole reason for the rule/guideline.TheVileOne wrote:
2. It can be hard to read ahead of time.
Those amendments sound great as guidelines. It might be worth adding something about hiding circles under short sliders in particular, because that's when hitbursts obscure approach circles even further. In particular, high approach rates make approach circles smaller, which means that they're less likely to be exposed for long.
Also, while it is definitely worth trying to cast one's mind beyond their own playing ability, mappers should not conform to trends willy nilly. This is how silly things become commonplace. Besides, a good mapper will be able to use their own tricks, before eventually relying less on what they see in other maps. Either way, it's reasonable to suggest that mappers map what they can play (or, if nothing else, what they can read easily). This way, the the mapper would be much more likely to make a coherent map, especially because it'd be relatively simple and easy to read.
Also, while it is definitely worth trying to cast one's mind beyond their own playing ability, mappers should not conform to trends willy nilly. This is how silly things become commonplace. Besides, a good mapper will be able to use their own tricks, before eventually relying less on what they see in other maps. Either way, it's reasonable to suggest that mappers map what they can play (or, if nothing else, what they can read easily). This way, the the mapper would be much more likely to make a coherent map, especially because it'd be relatively simple and easy to read.
so, we discuss on deleting one unusefull rule and we get 2 unuseful guidelines...
funny
funny
...It's demoting one unenforceable rule to guidelines? I see nothing wrong with it. Hiding circles under the middle of slider tracks is pretty silly in itself and should be discouraged. I shouldn't need to explain why.
Topic Starter
It has already been discussed to death in the thread. Haku has made the argument that it's not hard to do, and has proof from newbies who also do not think it's hard to do. No amount of logical discussion is going to change anyone's mind in this thread.D33d wrote:
Hiding circles under the middle of slider tracks is pretty silly in itself and should be discouraged. I shouldn't need to explain why.
Everyone agrees that this is a bad rule, however, and should at least be replaced either with one guideline or with the 2 guidelines mm201 suggested.
I guess I'm not part of everyone. We should not make a defense for unappealing sliders to come into play.
Why?
There is hardly a need for these kind of patterns outside of an insane. If you do so then the AR of the pattern will spam the approach circle over the slider track. Why should we allow this?
Why?
There is hardly a need for these kind of patterns outside of an insane. If you do so then the AR of the pattern will spam the approach circle over the slider track. Why should we allow this?
Topic Starter
Because it's fun to play.TheVileOne wrote:
If you do so then the AR of the pattern will spam the approach circle over the slider track. Why should we allow this?
If Haku has proof of newbies that don't think it's hard to do i have proof of newbies that think it's hard to do, by watching them play it myself when they were playing this game for the first time when i showed it to them (some IRL friends).ziin wrote:
Haku has made the argument that it's not hard to do, and has proof from newbies who also do not think it's hard to do.
I think that hitcircle under the body of the slider is ugly and nasty but circles under the slider end is similar to regular stacking and is perfectly fine.