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New Rule: Difficulty names must name the difficulty

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Topic Starter
Larto
Difficulty names must indicate the difficulty of the map, and if it's a guest mapper, show that mapper's name. This is to help players find out what kind of difficulty it is without having to start the map first, since the star rating isn't always accurate. Things like [Insane], [Expert], [Pro] or [Level 5] are acceptable difficulty names, [Tree] isn't.
Because a rule like this seems necessary. If difficulty names aren't supposed to indicate the map's difficulty, what are they there for? To give the mapper creative space? I'm by no means against creative space, but this doesn't belong into the difficulty names. Post all the creativity you have in your map posts, for what I care.
Lybydose
Only if I can use Lunatic, Extra, and Valhalla (ok maybe not Valhalla)
Soaprman
The worst ones are the ones named after the characters in the anime the song comes from. Usually not even in any particular order.

I think as long as the names go in some kind of logical order, they are usually fine. Actually naming the difficulty is best of course!
Raging Bull
I don't like mappers using their own name as difficulty too >_> What kind of a diff name is a "Raging Bull" No it's not insane!
Shiirn
Raging Bull
Natteke's a trollin'!
Gomo Psivarh
E
N
H
I
X
Sakura

Shiirn wrote:

Oh whatever shall we do, who can tell what the hardest difficulty is!
Who can tell indeed Fun Fact: Nogard was the easiest before i asked BD to increase diff settings by +1

But i do agree with this, regardless of "who can tell which one's the hardest" diff names must really make sense, and Shiirn isnt a difficulty, i'd take even as much as Level 1, Level 2, Level 3. Light, Medium, Heavy. Easy, Normal, Hard. Tiny, Small, Average, Big, Giant.

Anything that can be measured "X is more than Y" as long as it leaves enough room for some creativity while not going overboard with names that dont make sense.
Ekaru

Sakura Hana wrote:

Anything that can be measured "X is more than Y" as long as it leaves enough room for some creativity while not going overboard with names that dont make sense.
Ah, but what about...


\o/
NoHitter
What about difficulty names such as:
Castle, Sauna, Secret Lab, Heaven

It tells the difficulty, but you would need some sort of knowledge of a particular source in order to get it.

Edit: @ Shirn
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33393

Star rating lied, but Difficulty names didn't.
Sakura

NoHItter wrote:

What about difficulty names such as:
Castle, Sauna, Secret Lab, Heaven

It tells the difficulty, but you would need some sort of knowledge of a particular source in order to get it.
So no, as i said something that can be measured would suffice
NoHitter
But they are stages in a game in increasing order of difficulty.

Edit:
On a sidenote, what about requiring the mention of the name of the guest mapper in the guest diff?
I've seen lots of maps that do this. It makes it look like the mapper did it himself/herself.
Ekaru

NoHItter wrote:

On a sidenote, what about requiring the mention of the name of the guest mapper in the guest diff?
I've seen lots of maps that do this. It makes it look like the mapper did it himself/herself.
The proposed rule requires this, actually.
Froslass

Sakura Hana wrote:

Who can tell indeed Fun Fact: Nogard was the easiest before i asked BD to increase diff settings by +1
Except only-insane diffs in an approval map shouldn't respect this rule because that is very silly.

([Hakeru's Insane], then [Mercurius' even harder], then [BD's even more diffcult than that]?)
Sakura
I was more like bringing the fact that you can't tell the real order of the difficulties sometimes with star rating, your diff names are fine because all are Expert/Insane
Topic Starter
Larto

Blue Dragon wrote:

Sakura Hana wrote:

Who can tell indeed Fun Fact: Nogard was the easiest before i asked BD to increase diff settings by +1
Except only-insane diffs in an approval map shouldn't respect this rule because that is very silly.

([Hakeru's Insane], then [Mercurius' even harder], then [BD's even more diffcult than that]?)
Insane, Extreme, Impossible. :3
Soaprman
Impossible, Really Impossible, Really Really Impossible.

Yeah, having all-insane approval mapsets follow this rule would be needless.
ziin
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/29807
FYI.

Not having a clear picture of the difficulty from just one map is somewhat annoying when trying to join a multiplayer game.
Sakura
I do agree with this, i would like to add that possibly any 6 minute or higher map needs to be labeled as Marathon (or we could discuss the length for that) and needs a Marathon tag, because i feel we're missing quite a bit from here http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmaplist&s=4&r=6 ... 6&g=0&la=0 like for instance the top 2 here http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmaplist&s=4&r=6 ... 6&g=0&la=0
Azure_Kite
No more Blue, red and Gold Truths, then v_v
Natteke

Larto wrote:

This is to help players find out what kind of difficulty it is without having to start the map first, since the star rating isn't always accurate.
Hello! What players are you talking about? I'm a player and I have never experienced any troubles finding which difficulty is the hardest one / easiest one / whatever.
SapphireGhost
There are actually situations where difficulty naming is helpful in finding out which difficulty is hardest, see these:
A. Tanaka, M. Matsuda - Ooparts
Relient K - I'm Getting Nuttin' For Christmas
Lou Bega - Mambo No.5

Also, haze isn't a good example because both [Shiirn] and [Natteke] are marked as 5 stars in star rating, and [Shiirn] gives more points, so it's still sort of confusing which one is harder.
Dangaard
You should consider that there might be the case when there are 2 diffs of a similar difficulty level, but with different ways of being difficult (such as jump vs. stream). Naming one of them "Hard" and the other "Insane" implies that one actually is harder, but the personal impression of a map's difficulty often differs from player to player, so there should be a different way of naming them.
When there are difficulties of different difficulty level it usually is very obvious which one is the harder one, and if it's not we can handle this on a case to case basis.

And no, 2 diffs of a similar difficulty level are not a problem.
NatsumeRin
Objectively:
Nope. Only a few ranked maps have problem like this. Also if you're not the several "first players" come to that map, you can always tell the difficulty by checking the scoreboard. I don't think a rule is needed when 99.9% of the time things are already done. Why not let mappers have some fun with it then. At least, guestline that?

Subjectively:
No, I still need to use Rin for my highest diff so no.
Shiirn

SapphireGhost wrote:

Also, haze isn't a good example because both [Shiirn] and [Natteke] are marked as 5 stars in star rating, and [Shiirn] gives more points, so it's still sort of confusing which one is harder.
Precisely. But even then, although Shiirn gives more points, Natteke was actually technically harder.
artpiggo
I think sometimes mapper would like to express everything in mapping to make players really into it.

On that basis, They tend to use diff name to be unique in each mapset most. Sometimes, anime song can have anime character to be diff name. I think it really is ok for me if they still don't overuse it and be reasonable. Moreover, they perhaps use diff name to be guest name so that we players can know in the first time, who is creator for that map. In case players who are impressed with that map style, they will remember in next time when they see this name again(or try to avoid if....lolz)

Want you to reconsider this again. :3
Shiro
What would happen to difficult names like the ones I use for my DKC maps, which do make sense ? T_T

I think this should be modified to cases when the diff name doesn't make sense *at all*.
Froslass

Odaril wrote:

What would happen to difficult names like the ones I use for my DKC maps, which do make sense ? T_T

I think this should be modified to cases when the diff name doesn't make sense *at all*.

Sakura Hana wrote:

NoHItter wrote:

What about difficulty names such as:
Castle, Sauna, Secret Lab, Heaven

It tells the difficulty, but you would need some sort of knowledge of a particular source in order to get it.
So no, as i said something that can be measured would suffice
Even though I feel it's ridiculous.
If you can't tell what is the hardest diff, you know, you can go to the listing, and if the mapper is intelligent enough, he will list what the diff names mean. If not, punch the mapper until he does.
RandomJibberish
This rule is so much yes. Arbitrary difficulty names are pointless, and I'm sure a mapper can come up with something with a logical order for whatever theme they're going for. Also, guest mappers who are only credited in the description always make me rage :<

NatsumeRin wrote:

No, I still need to use Rin for my highest diff so no
That should be okay since it's consistent through all of your other maps and is in most cases pretty obviously the insane of the set.
Shiro
I agree with the part that says that guest mapper's names MUST appear in their diff name.

Custom difficulty names should make sense though and there should be some kind of order possible on them.
"a b c d" would be okay, for instance. Or "1 2 3 4" "bottom low high highest" or something.
It should be okay if they make sense when related to a game, a novel, or something like that. They would just require a bit of knowledge to understand though. "vulpix ninetails" would be okay, for instance.
(in this case my idea for DKC maps would make sense, as the levels' names can clearly be sorted out from "easiest" to "hardest")

However, things like Shiirn's mapset, or "rabat23746's ultra love" or "SUPRA LOLI" or whatever that doesn't make sense wouldn't.
mm201
How is this useful to someone who is unfamiliar with the series the song is from?
I don't think we can have a rule about this.
Luna
I don't like this rule.
It would affect more that just random names that can't be guessed, it would also ban diffs named "Collab" and stuff of the sort.
And "Hard Collab" or "Insane Collab" just looks stupid.
I've never had any problems with arbitrary diff names, it takes literally 30 seconds to check the scoreboards if you really must.
Lunah_old
hmm, difficulties are sorted by star rating (difficulty), 9/10 of times the Hardest difficulty is the last of the mapset, also sometimes happens that an "Hard" may pass an "Insane", well, this is just an game difficulty calculating error

random example

Raging Bull
Actually I'm more of a fan of making this a guideline instead. True I really don't like mappers using their own name as their diff name, but it really isn't that hard to check.
awp
A difficulty spread's naming convention shouldn't require special knowledge of any subject matter.
Zelos

awp wrote:

A difficulty spread's naming convention shouldn't require special knowledge of any subject matter.
NoHitter
I disagree with that.
Lets say we have a Pokemon map.
IMO it should be fine having a Pokemon based difficulty naming system as it fits the theme.
Example: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/12622

So by that system, we're also banning Taiko difficulty names too since you need prior Taiko knowledge?
"What do Kantan, Futsuu, Muzukashi, and Oni mean?"
Topic Starter
Larto
I think a "Cyndaquil (Easy)" isn't too unaesthetic. You can keep your creativity, but at least in SOME way show that your difficulty is Easy, Normal, Hard or Insane.

How about...
Difficulty names must indicate the difficulty of the map, and if it's a guest mapper, show that mapper's name. This is to help players find out what kind of difficulty it is without having to start the map first, since the star rating isn't always accurate. Things like [Insane], [Expert], [Pro] or [Level 5] are acceptable difficulty names, [Tree] isn't. [Tree (Normal)], on the other hand, is acceptable.
HakuNoKaemi
well, they should represent However, a logical sequence or a tier list...

But, actually it's a nono, it should be a guideline, not a rule.
NoHitter
I still believe that as long as there is a logical order/indication of difficulty then it should be fine.
If it requires prior knowledge of something, it should be fine as long as the map's source/theme is similar with that.

On a sidenote, what about difficulty names based on the order of the lyrics of a song?

Edit: Also Larto, having a parenthesis followed by the difficulty description is unaesthetic >.>
ziin
No. People have the right to be douches.

That won't stop you from suggesting they name their difficulties to more appropriate logical names. Usually if enough people agree there will be a fix.

This is so minor it's not worth discussion.
deadbeat
it really depends on the map. say is the source is beatmania or touhou, then names like hyper, another and lunatic would be acceptable since a lot of people know what they are. however i really don't see the point in (animecharacter's Easy, animecharacter's Normal etc)

The diff names should be easy to understand, maps like this are just silly.
I also agree with the earlier statement about Collab diff's. it should be include the difficulty in there somewhere like Insane(Collab). also i believe each collab section should be properly names so players can tell who's map what part. Most do it anyway, i think there are a couple that don't
Drakari_old
I had a very well written post, but the add reply button does not add what you've already written as a reply, it goes to a different page.

Basically, it should either be a guideline or only be applied for maps where the star rating doesn't already rank them properly.
pieguyn
This rule really isn't necessary...

It's almost always really obvious which diff is the hardest one. If it's not, just playing them both would be enough to figure it out, and looking at the scoreboard could also be another way to tell. The only way it's not obvious is if the hardest diff doesn't have the highest score and doesn't appear at the bottom of the list, which isn't frequent at all and doesn't need a rule that would apply to all cases.
xsrsbsns

ziin wrote:

No. People have the right to be douches.

That won't stop you from suggesting they name their difficulties to more appropriate logical names. Usually if enough people agree there will be a fix.

This is so minor it's not worth discussion.
This.

Drakari wrote:

I had a very well written post, but the add reply button does not add what you've already written as a reply, it goes to a different page.
That box is for quick reply, button on the right.
Gens
The idea of custom difficulty names was to follow other difficulty convention names, like [Advanced], [Expert] or [Maniac]. Most of the time it isn't a problem, though there are some maps who use stupid difficulty names that don't resemble any difficulty naming convention... for example, calling the difficulties [Maria], [Joel] and [Daniela] is stupid and confusing because I have no way to know what difficulty is which.

It shouldn't be an obscure difficulty name either, so everyone understands what difficulty it is; for example, let's say a beatmap is of X anime and the strongest character is Y, so the mapper names it [Y]. Those who don't know the anime are left out, wondering what the name means, which is a bit unfair.

Anyone agree?

There was nothing of this written anywhere, so I thought of adding it to the guidelines so there's less confusion.
Weez
For my maps, if I do decide to have a custom name I always add what diff it is.
Ex: all my Toradora maps are like [Ami Insane], [Taiga Hard] etc.

Maybe if the name is ambiguous then what type of diff should be added. So [X Insane]
HakuNoKaemi
Kinda agree.

I usually give my Insane Guest or Collab diffs some wordplay name like:
-Haku No Okami -> http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28257
-Hakkun;Gate -> http://osu.ppy.sh/s/30876

Or using Personas names ordered by level here -> http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28856

By the way, you don't need a guideline to make that, as modders will take the work of making the mapper changing it if it has no sense ( e.g Maria, Joel and Daniela in a song where they don't even appear in the lyrics... )
eldnl
Is not confusing, it's obvious which is which. No matter the name.
HakuNoKaemi
more than the name itself, he's talking about using names that doesn't center much in the song/anime/contest of the map
mm201
If the star ratings are accurate, gimmick difficulty names should be okay. If not, you really shouldn't.
HakuNoKaemi
This doesn't delete the fact that is not worth a guideline and obviousl not a rule either!
Gens

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

more than the name itself, he's talking about using names that doesn't center much in the song/anime/contest of the map
Uh...

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Or using Personas names ordered by level here -> http://osu.ppy.sh/s/28856
Actually, I'm sorry to say, but that's exactly what I meant - as a person who has never played Persona, I have no idea what the difficulty names mean. If you tell me "play [Asura]", it could mean Normal or Insane to me. Absolutely non-related names are already picked up in the modding process, as you said.

Names like [Regular Titan], [Super Titan] and [Ultra Titan] are perfectly fine to me, since they indicate some sort of size growing up, so I can safely assume [Ultra Titan] is going to be the hardest. Character names don't make any sense though, unless you know the source.

Difficulty names should always resemble the difficulty, so there's no ambiguity or confusion. Star rating usually indicates the difficulty, yes (if it didn't, custom names like that wouldn't have survived at all), but it's still not accurate... and besides, the difficulty name, as its name implies, should name the difficulty properly!

...I see this has all been discussed though, so maybe I'm just repeating everything here. :P
HakuNoKaemi
You can know the hardest by knowing some latin (Telos means Endless).
By knowing some mythology, you can know almost all difficulties:
Orpheus, you know his story ( he descended in hell to recover his lover Eurydice )
Orthrus, the mythical child of Nyx, brother to Cerberus, Sphinx and Chimera, that was slain by Hercules ( so, after a "normal" human, there is a mythical beast)
Thanatos, the God of the Peacefull Death and Eternal Sleep (another child of Nyx) (pretty logical)
Asura is taken from hinduist, buddhist, vedic and zoroastrianic. Referring to Vedic, King of asuras, and Zoroastrian, mispelling of Ahura Mazda, much like YHVH for Cristians. (Remember Soul Eater Asura too)
Orpheus Telos - as Telos means Endless, and Orpheus received a gold lyre from Apollo
Another way:
The Star Rating order: I made it all to preserve the order of the difficulties.

This doesn't deserve a rule. Neither a Guideline maybe.
Soaprman

mm201 wrote:

If the star ratings are accurate, gimmick difficulty names should be okay. If not, you really shouldn't.
Seconding this. Character names or whatever as difficulty names look really dumb to me but if they're in order by difficulty then it's nothing to really care about.

HakuNoKaemi: If your difficulty names require an explanation that long then that means they are terrible as difficulty names (and I say this as somebody who has played Persona). I don't think there should be a rule against you doing that but come on now...
HakuNoKaemi
the Orpheus-Thanatos-Orpheus Telos line is comprensible by anyone who followed the Persona storyline and really completed the game, Orthrus and Asura are just in between them.
That one explanation is better?
or even
"Just watch the Personae Compendiae"
Drakari_old
I've got an idea: Let mappers order the difficulties in their beatmap manually if the star sorting doesn't do it right. Then it doesn't matter what the difficulty names are at all.
HakuNoKaemi
maybe will be doable in osz2, but if a map it's more a group of difficulty with same Artist, Song and Mapper... I see it difficult (talking on organization-side)
Xaffy
I'd much rather a diff named after the mapper if it's a guest mapper than have it named by difficulty. Also maps often have 2 difficulties of similar difficulty but a different style (streams vs jumps) and you can always just look at stars or high scores to determine difficulty levels if in doubt. Or you can actually just play the map, the difficulty of a diff named "insane" already varies wildly.

Drakari wrote:

I've got an idea: Let mappers order the difficulties in their beatmap manually if the star sorting doesn't do it right. Then it doesn't matter what the difficulty names are at all.
If anything should be done, it should be this.
ziin

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

comprehensible by anyone who followed the Persona storyline
like not me.

The problem is this: what difficulty corresponds to beginner, easy, normal, hard, insane, expert? You should be able to point out from each individual difficulty the osu! analogous difficulty (this is actually quite useful in multi-player where you do not have the benefit of seeing more than one difficulty or even the star rating).

If I were to make a BG2 mapset, and were to name my difficulties after the bosses, what would be the osu! difficulty of [Yaga-Shura]? It's impossible, even for people who know the game for a thousand different reasons.

IMO weezy's way is perfect and anyone who thinks otherwise is just whining about some stupid minor detail that doesn't affect the gameplay in the slightest and makes the beatmap confusing to more people.
deadbeat
i agree with ziin and gens.
its even more annoying when its just the mapper's name and nothing else. the difficulty names should make sense to ALL players who play the map. not just the ones have have played/watched the source. if you really MUST add some random difficulty name in, then just do what weezy does, its maybe 5 seconds work tops
Shiro
I read through this thread... And here's what I propose:

There should be a way to tell easily which difficulty is what. For custom names, some knowledge about the source of the song might be required, but the naming should be objective.
This allows things like my DKC maps, naming like "o1o o2o o3o" and other ideas like this (still allow NatsumeRin's highest difficulties names), but would get rid of names completely unrelated to anything (character names, for instance).
Cyclohexane
It'd also be nice to have Taiko maps clearly indicated.
Sometimes it's a bit awkward.
Shiro
Included in the above wording.
Yuzeyun

Mr Color wrote:

It'd also be nice to have Taiko maps clearly indicated.
Sometimes it's a bit awkward.
This map would be in the category "Screw the people that don't really know K-ON!" since the Ritsu diff is Taiko. The only hint about this being a taiko would be the amount of circles... But noone pay attention about those stats >.>

I don't have any other map in mind but this kind of maps would confuse every other player (Main Standard/CTB) but Taiko players.
HakuNoKaemi
Agree with Odaril
ziin
What's wrong with weezy's naming scheme anyway? Why don't you people put the actual difficulty in the name?
HakuNoKaemi
That's not against Odaril version of the guideline as it clearly says the difficulty ( PG's Easy/Normal/Hard/Insane and so )
Shiro

ziin wrote:

What's wrong with weezy's naming scheme anyway?
As HakuNoKaemi said, my version completely allows that.

ziin wrote:

Why don't you people put the actual difficulty in the name?
It doesn't always sound as good as Weezy's. "Barrel Bayou Easy" "Knockhead Klamber Normal" "Mudhole Marsh Hard" sounds terrible.

(though what I could have done is "lvl 1: Barrel Bayou" "lvl 2: Knockhead Klamber" "lvl 3: Mudhole Marsh")
ziin

Odaril wrote:

It doesn't always sound as good as Weezy's. "Barrel Bayou Easy" "Knockhead Klamber Normal" "Mudhole Marsh Hard" sounds terrible.
My major problem is that in multiplayer you are not given any context other than the difficulty name as to how hard the map is. This makes finding a multiplayer room harder for me. Anything that impedes my gameplay is an annoyance and should be fixed if possible.

Beginner's Barrel Bayou
Medium Mudhole Marsh
Krazy Knockhead Klamber

Rin-sane

I just don't like your version because it can still rely on context or knowledge about the source. I also know I am being over-particular. I don't agree with your rule because I want an all or nothing solution.
HakuNoKaemi
I laughed at Rin-sane

I still think this is a Guideline more than a rule.
Anyway, in my cause the thing I can do is adding Persona level and Arcanae to the name, (01. Fool Orpheus or Fool Orpheus - Lv.01)
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