It's just ugly. This will also solve readability issues with some maps.
And a toggle to decide whether the font is Comic Sans or Jokerman.OzzyOzrock wrote:
I know, we need a better explosion. It will only say BOOM! in ever so 18 font letters.
Actually playing anything somewhat hard with default skin is annoying. You should note that tons of players nowadays are using 100% invisible 300 bursts and small 100/50 bursts, playing with those standar bursts is like... horrible.peppy wrote:
I've never even considered them too big. Ever. Could this be because I haven't played any recent maps which use "new-style" (aka broken) mapping?
That doesn't help much with AR9...rust45 wrote:
For the record, if you're not looking ahead in a map to see the notes, you're doing it wrong.
I like this too.ShadowLord wrote:
So, if you go select a custom skin inside the game, somewhere in the UI it will have an option where you can select what type of hit burst it should use like Normal/Small.
If the mapper is forcing default, they're going to be more inclined to make their map intuitive with default's "large" hit bursts. (If they aren't, they're doing something horribly wrong which should be modded.)Card N'FoRcE wrote:
This often happens with incomplete skins or other cases who force the default skin. Similiar cases are skins with re-coloured default hitbursts (that are never resized): doing this won't fix older ranked maps that did this trick, but it will help newer ones.
See peppy's response. Looking ahead probably makes this very readable.Luna wrote:
In what order do you hit stuff here?
The pattern is really fun and intuitive, but looks confusing as heck with huge hitbursts orz
If a map requires a custom skin to be playable because of overlaps + high AR, it should be modded and one of those things be changed.Makar8000 wrote:
That doesn't help much with AR9...rust45 wrote:
For the record, if you're not looking ahead in a map to see the notes, you're doing it wrong.
I am one of the biggest overlapophobes on the system and I have no problem with any of Ekaru's examples.Card N'FoRcE wrote:
Ekaru explained pretty well what i mean.
Ehh... I'd say this does have something to do with gameplay. Why are we killing different kinds of mapping (aka different types of gameplay) for aesthetics? Shouldn't it be the opposite? I'd rather play something harder to read and fun than something linear, boring and easy to read stuff. And no, a map with overlaps isn't poorly built just because you don't like overlaps.mm201 wrote:
See my previous post regarding this being solely a matter of aesthetics and having nothing to do with gameplay. Please don't devolve this into a circular argument about gameplay and poorly built Insanes.
Read up:CXu wrote:
Ehh... I'd say this does have something to do with gameplay. Why are we killing different kinds of mapping (aka different types of gameplay) for aesthetics? Shouldn't it be the opposite? I'd rather play something harder to read and fun than something linear, boring and easy to read stuff.
Furthermore, who's killing anything? Confounding overlaps are already unrankable. This request would effectively expand the limits of what's rankable, since rankability is based off the default skin as is.mm201 wrote:
if you want/expect the player to use smaller-than-default hitbursts when playing your map, why don't you include them in your map's skin?
Stop making it personal. If it's a good map, it's a good map. I wasn't talking about the good maps.CXu wrote:
And no, a map with overlaps aren't poorly built just because you don't like overlaps.
Bending too much to the whim of the current players turns the game into an insiders only club that's alienating to newcomers. Newcomers who might have otherwise had the potential of steering the game in surprising new directions. Broad appeal is more important than making life slightly more convenient for the small number of experts who should know how to change skins anyway.CXu wrote:
Let the game change and evolve with the users.
Though I do get the impression that there are some overlaps that are unrankable because the hitbursts cover too much of the pattern or w/e. And if smaller hitbursts can make these more readable, that would mean these patterns being rankable, no?mm201 wrote:
Furthermore, who's killing anything? Confounding overlaps are already unrankable. This request would effectively expand the limits of what's rankable, since rankability is based off the default skin as is.
You're saying we shouldn't talk about poorly built insanes (where unreadability is mostly because of overlaps or hard patterns). Now, why are they poorly built then? Obviously there is atleast some standard if they get ranked, and if the only reason you're saying they're poorly built is because it's unreadable due to overlaps, then yes, I do think it is because you don't like them much or something. Do tell me if I'm wrong here (as my reading comprehension might be a jackass)mm201 wrote:
Stop making it personal. If it's a good map, it's a good map. I wasn't talking about the good maps.CXu wrote:
And no, a map with overlaps aren't poorly built just because you don't like overlaps.
So you're saying the majority of newcomers these days prefer these huge hitbursts? I don't know. Some probably do, but others probably find them too big and obscures the view for other gameplay elements. Those who find them fine might also be players who still doesn't know that it's possible to change the skin.mm201 wrote:
Bending too much to the whim of the current players turns the game into an insiders only club that's alienating to newcomers. Newcomers who might have otherwise had the potential of steering the game in surprising new directions. Broad appeal is more important than making life slightly more convenient for the small number of experts who should know how to change skins anyway.CXu wrote:
Let the game change and evolve with the users.
You probably won't be seeing tsurupettan's everywhere if you do change this.mm201 wrote:
The only message sent by changing the default skin's hitbursts is that closely spaced patterns are good and everyone should use them. See my original point that this is a runaway logic and encourages even further overuse of clustering.
Now that's bending too much. Yes, I guess it indeed is kinda the same logic, but at the same time not really. These are objects we're interacting with, which should be what we're focused on while playing, and not the hitburst telling us we got a 300.mm201 wrote:
It also applies to everything else, not just hitbursts. Why not make the circles themselves transparent? Or slider paths? We could take the ReRave approach and make slider paths tiny. Then slider overlaps would be readable!
I'm not talking about simple stacks like triples or something, you can read those in advance. What I mean are patterns where the stacked circle only appears after you have hit the hitobject above it. For example in certain back-and-forth-combos. Patterns like that are actually really common and pretty much impossible to read with huge hitbursts.D33d wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Hidden itself is a strain of fake difficulty. It's also very easy to read where stacks occur, long before one has to hit them. There is still plenty of stack memorisation in that there's no indicator of how far apart the circles within a stack are.
I only consider back-and-forth notes to be sightreadable by their approach circles. Really, if that sort of thing is to be a problem, then the stack leniency should be reduced. It is variable like that for a reason and the default setting tends to stack back-and-forths.Luna wrote:
I'm not talking about simple stacks like triples or something, you can read those in advance. What I mean are patterns where the stacked circle only appears after you have hit the hitobject above it. For example in certain back-and-forth-combos. Patterns like that are actually really common and pretty much impossible to read with huge hitbursts.D33d wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Hidden itself is a strain of fake difficulty. It's also very easy to read where stacks occur, long before one has to hit them. There is still plenty of stack memorisation in that there's no indicator of how far apart the circles within a stack are.
Also, you can read the timing of stacked notes in Hidden by paying attention to the AR. It's not that hard, really. But that's a different topic altogether~
I disagree with this. The large hitbursts are more visually attractive to me. So no, they aren't unquestionably better.CXu wrote:
Actually, I do think almost every map can somehow benefit from a bit smaller hitbursts, not just those specific maps with overlaps. Well, to begin with, it makes maps easier to read, so yeah.
Exactly. Considering how we have this topic, current ranking standards regarding overlaps are too lenient for some. It stands to reason that by reducing the hitburst size along with the ranking standards, these same people will still have problems with the new maps' even more extreme overlaps. This creates a runaway process feedback loop in which there's no pleasing anyone.CXu wrote:
Though I do get the impression that there are some overlaps that are unrankable because the hitbursts cover too much of the pattern or w/e. And if smaller hitbursts can make these more readable, that would mean these patterns being rankable, no?
Yes you are wrong. I didn't make any specific examples, and have no intentions of. Specific examples are subject to interpretation, and can easily be countered with "I disagree." Instead, I use an "if-then" relationship. If a map causes difficulties because of the default skin then that map has balance issues. If anything, Card, Ekaru, and Luna can be held at fault for listing specifics they think are confusing. Assaulting someone's preferences is a cheap way of sidestepping their arguments.CXu wrote:
You're saying we shouldn't talk about poorly built insanes (where unreadability is mostly because of overlaps or hard patterns). Now, why are they poorly built then? Obviously there is atleast some standard if they get ranked, and if the only reason you're saying they're poorly built is because it's unreadable due to overlaps, then yes, I do think it is because you don't like them much or something. Do tell me if I'm wrong here (as my reading comprehension might be a jackass)
Now we're on the same page. Newcomers may like larger or smaller ones--it's hard to decide. I'd be happy to carry on this discussion from an aesthetic standpoint. So far, only myself, peppy, awp, and Ekaru have really presented their aesthetic opinions, and Ekaru was the only one opposed.CXu wrote:
So you're saying the majority of newcomers these days prefer these huge hitbursts? I don't know. Some probably do, but others probably find them too big and obscures the view for other gameplay elements. Those who find them fine might also be players who still doesn't know that it's possible to change the skin.
Not saying that most new people have to prefer small hitbursts, but it is a fact that smaller hitbursts obscures less on the playfield, which in return gives a better experience gameplay wise imo.
I don't think making the hitbursts a bit smaller is bending too much either.
You never directly interact with the slider track. Only the ball and arguably the ticks. There's no technical reason why we couldn't have skinny ReRave slider tracks. In fact, once I get skinnable sliders up, this will be possible. Even once this becomes possible, existing ranking criteria involving slider track overlaps won't be reduced, nor will the default skin ever use them.CXu wrote:
Now that's bending too much. Yes, I guess it indeed is kinda the same logic, but at the same time not really. These are objects we're interacting with, which should be what we're focused on while playing, and not the hitburst telling us we got a 300.
Hidden, being exclusively a visibility modifying mod, is supposed to have fake difficulty. It's a bonus mode which isn't held to the same expectation of balance. (Having said that, I disagree with back/forth patterns anyway. I map in a style which is readable on Hidden, but I wouldn't have the same expectation of others.)Luna wrote:
Also, think about stuff like stacks in Hidden.
If the hitbursts are about as big as the hitcircles, you can actually see them. And I really don't think it's "fake skill" to read Hidden instead of learning every stacked pattern by heart. It's more a removal of fake difficulty.
If the default hitbursts stay as huge as they are now, you are basically forcing players to use their own skins if they want to play Hidden properly.
Just for the record, I always thought hitbursts would look better if they were about the size of the hitcircles, even before I started playing maps with advanced patterns.mm201 wrote:
Now we're on the same page. Newcomers may like larger or smaller ones--it's hard to decide. I'd be happy to carry on this discussion from an aesthetic standpoint. So far, only myself, peppy, awp, and Ekaru have really presented their aesthetic opinions, and Ekaru was the only one opposed.
I agree with awp's post too, actually. I've been playing with these hitbursts for years, too, so the more I think about it, the more I don't want them changed too drastically.mm201 wrote:
awp stated my opinion better than I could. As an "explosion," it needs to completely cover the circle which is exploding, which the current ones just barely do. I also like the effect where the faded ghost circle zooms out from behind the hitburst. This effect would be completely spoiled if you could see it from the beginning.