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[Rule] Catch the beat difficulties are not allowed

posted
Total Posts
257
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Louis Cyphre
Catch the Beat-specific difficulties are not allowed due to the fact that osu!standard difficulties convert to Catch the Beat difficulties well enough without specific difficulties having to be created. However, feel free to include an external link to any Catch the Beat difficulties in your mapthread.

"Why CTB maps can not be ranked?": Because it's not rhythm game.

I suggest to make new generation of TaikoCTB maps. Taiko mapper makes taiko map, CTB mapper makes CTB with mapped notes in taiko difficulty. Of course it's possible to make CTB map via standard qualities, but i find that incorrect. Some awesome patterns in ctb might be ridiculous and stupid in standard mode, but not in taiko. Taiko maps are not relative with placement of notes, so i think it's good solution

Discuss
arien666
6,290 posts
Joined May 2009
arien666
To make CtB diffs rankable, there need some things as like guideline or rule for CtB diffs :3
[Yeah, TaikoCtB would be great idea XD. I was thinking like that :3]

What should we do for this discussion first :3?
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
there're some technical problems.
1) sliders - represents 1/4 or 1/8 streams in gameplay, is not easily used, this is quite different from the CtB philosophy when this is originally transfered from solo maps.
2) SV in taiko change like solo diffs but in individual CtB diffs somehow they could change only due to difficulty.
3) Difficulty settings. As the discussion going on, we tend to keep HP drain rate and OD in a certain range different from CtB-solo converted diffs.

I think solo-converted diffs is already enough for CtB and we should not force to merge these two playing mode. Therefore I oppose this one.

edit: I oppose merging Taiko and CTB, but I'm neutral on rankable CTB issue.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
Louis' idea is fusing Taiko and CTB mapping to create some kind of TaiCTB maps. But as I said in the previous forum thread:

Deif wrote:

2 issues come to my mind:

- Taiko specific patterns: There'll be many triplets or long streams that fit a Taiko specific map, but not really a CTB one (and many ppl will say it's overmapped blahblahblah).

- Hitsounds: Taiko mainly uses 2 kind of hitsound to provide specific patterns to their maps, but will they fit properly to CTB?

I'm not fully supporting it, because some Taiko stuff have to be changed to allow TaiCTB maps.
As Arken said, we need to create some specific guidelines for CTB mapping.
Mercurial
Mercurial

Deif wrote:

As Arien said, we need to create some specific guidelines for CTB mapping.
Fix'd for you.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif

iMercurial wrote:

Deif wrote:

As Arien said, we need to create some specific guidelines for CTB mapping.
Fix'd for you.


Re-fix it, please~ And I thought we were discussing about some CTB stuff.
Mercurial
Mercurial
Okay

Louis Cyphre wrote:

Discuss
Meh.


I dunno really why CTB maps are unrankable.

But meh, if exist some CTB ranked, I dunno why it must continue like that.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Do you remember my ryougen CTB map made by me, Louis? That one was this kind of map, haha.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
Disclaimer: I never play CTB. That said, I don't see why there's a need to have all the CTB rules spelled out from the beginning and why the lack of rules is being used as an argument against making CTB diffs rankable. Why not let the rules for them evolve organically? Let people get CTB diffs ranked for a while without rules and see if things ever happen in those maps that the CTB community disagrees with, and let the discussion start from there.

Also, CTB difficulty icons would be nice to have.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif

Soaprman wrote:

Also, CTB difficulty icons would be nice to have.


Not mine, but the "X" icon is missing.
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Louis Cyphre
Do you remember my ryougen CTB map made by me, Louis? That one was this kind of map, haha.
I remember, and it was Great. just GREAT, in both mods.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I edited your thread title and OP a bit since there's an already existing rule to this so it follows the normal format
Mercurial
Mercurial

Soaprman wrote:

Disclaimer: I never play CTB.
I stopped read here.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

iMercurial wrote:

Soaprman wrote:

Disclaimer: I never play CTB.
I stopped read here.
should have kept reading, he's a supporter of your half-wadded theories about ctb mapping.

I'm not really supportive or against something like this. It requires a lot of work for something that very few people seem to actively support (remember, loud people are easy to pay attention to) and would require in-working with people in the ctb community (which is smaller than the standard/taiko community) with the staff that just likely won't happen due to clashing personalities and/or language barriers (the ctb community seems disproportionately non-native english speaking), unless said ctb community would choose less...offensively inclined representatives or more lesser-known players (which would defeat the point of making rules, they'd be less experienced).
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
Well i would love seeing some CtB maps ranked :3

I play CtB for some time and there are some things that are unfair/annoying and so.
Nothing that would keep you away of FC the Map somehow but still.

I just wonder. Was there even a time where CtB maps were ranked? Did some people tried doing them in standard?
I also agree with Soaprman. I think the community would start guidelines and such if they have the change to develope them.

I mean it is possible to FC most of all standard to Taiko converted maps somehow if you have some skillz.

Well i don't know how far this thread will come but i would like to help with creating guidelines and such .

But for now i just say that as long as i am able to do "unranked" CtB maps for myself I won't rage or complain.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Did you guys even read the rule text before starting to throw ideas of how to make it rankable?
Mismagius
9,261 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

Sakura Hana wrote:

Did you guys even read the rule text before starting to throw ideas of how to make it rankable?
So that's why we should keep letting things like these happening?

As a mapper myself, I don't like CTB and I map for standard only. In my hard maps, it's common to see "impossible CtB jumps". I would prefer putting a CtB-only difficulty instead of changing lots of things in my hard standard difficulties so they are possible to FC in CtB.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

Sakura Hana wrote:

Did you guys even read the rule text before starting to throw ideas of how to make it rankable?
ಠ_ಠ

ಠ_ಠ

ಠ_ಠ
Agnes
osu! Alumni
1,153 posts
Joined July 2009
Agnes

Shiirn wrote:

Sakura Hana wrote:

Did you guys even read the rule text before starting to throw ideas of how to make it rankable?
ಠ_ಠ

ಠ_ಠ

ಠ_ಠ

My head hurts too.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

Deif wrote:

Soaprman wrote:

Also, CTB difficulty icons would be nice to have.


Not mine, but the "X" icon is missing.
I had made them >.<

Anyway Nothing like the "X" existed at that time anyway

Sakura Hana wrote:

Did you guys even read the rule text before starting to throw ideas of how to make it rankable?
Why it isn't unrankable in the first place. Explain that before saying "ideas on how to make it rankable".

ಠ_ಠ
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif




Time to make the one is left? :p
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Why it isn't unrankable in the first place. Explain that before saying "ideas on how to make it rankable".]
Actually it is, it's a rule and it says "not allowed" meaning unrankable. Just read the rule (which i added to the OP) and then go through that angle instead, because most of the "reasons" that you think make it unrankable, well they arent the reasons stated in the rule text, so you're just attacking an irrelevant angle.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=55363 Hope this will be useful for you guys ^^
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: OWC#3
4,847 posts
Joined May 2009
KRZY
The current reason for CTB difficulties being unrankable is because they are not necessary since standard maps convert well into CTB patterns, which is not the case in taiko and thus why taiko difficulties are allowed to be ranked.

If any group of people wants to change the fact that CTB difficulties are unrankable, then it needs to tackle this problem first. In other words, it needs to persuade peppy, who was the one that gave the final decision on CTB difficulties being unrankable, as well as other admins of the game that CTB difficulties should be rankable.

I, of course, fully support rankable CTB difficulties.
Mercurial
Mercurial
Catch the Beat-specific difficulties are not allowed due to the fact that osu!standard difficulties convert to Catch the Beat difficulties well enough without specific difficulties having to be created.
Taiko is the same as CtB and look out, Lots of Taiko diffs are Ranked everyday.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
Catch the Beat-specific difficulties are not allowed due to the fact that osu!standard difficulties convert to Catch the Beat difficulties well enough without specific difficulties having to be created. However, feel free to include an external link to any Catch the Beat difficulties in your mapthread.

Hatsune Miku - Ohigan FuzzyClap



There are some exceptions for that "perfect" conversion between osu!standard-to-CTB ಠ_ಠ
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I actually support CtB difficulties. What flows well in CtB isn't all the time good in osu! standard. And some maps are really boring in CtB, while they could be quite fun with a CtB diff.
However, we do need a set of guidelines and/or rules.
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Louis Cyphre
I'd like to add, that some patterns in CTB are easy and ridiculous in standard mode.
(For example O__________O__________O, stream jump at for example 320 bpm, hyperdash system lets players catch it perfectly)

And... many technics, type of sliders (Burai sliders, etc), various inconsistent spacing (CTB does not care about distance spacing), slider velocity changes, hidden notes (except hidden fruits in spinners) All these technics are unrankable, but i think perfectly rankable for CTB. Of course CTB has another extra things, like some patterns in CTB are impossible (ridiculous to get), but perfectly possible in standard mod. Such things like: very fast sliders (Banned Forever, Nogard difficulty, DJ Sharpnel - StrangeProgramm, Lesjuh's Tag difficulty), offscreen droplets.
I can link tones of maps, that have CTB bugs, if it is really needed, i'll do that, amount is great.

The current reason for CTB difficulties being unrankable is because they are not necessary since standard maps convert well into
CTB patterns, which is not the case in taiko and thus why taiko difficulties are allowed to be ranked.
(Why this was not deranked, seriously), etc.

I'm sure, that Catch the Beat-specific difficulties should be allowed, because osu!standard difficulties convert to Catch the Beat difficulty not well enough, due to some bugs.

And i see no reason, why it shouldn't be allowed.

I actually support CtB difficulties. What flows well in CtB isn't all the time good in osu! standard. And some maps are really boring in CtB, while they could be quite fun with a CtB diff.
However, we do need a set of guidelines and/or rules.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=55363 i think there is written everything about guidelines and rules, nothing to add.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
The current reason for CTB difficulties being unrankable is because they are not necessary since standard maps convert well into
CTB patterns, which is not the case in taiko and thus why taiko difficulties are allowed to be ranked.
I'd rather play osu!taiko maps then most ranked taiko maps.
Most of them suck.
Ikillforpies
379 posts
Joined November 2010
Ikillforpies
i support this with all my heart! <3
Artificial Children
Artificial Children

Ikillforpies wrote:

i support this with all my heart! <3
Me too, and is will be great for the most CTB players, i don't mapping but i know some people that will do really good CTB maps if its be ranked someday :)
ZHSteven
osu! Alumni
665 posts
Joined July 2009
ZHSteven

KRZY wrote:

The current reason for CTB difficulties being unrankable is because they are not necessary since standard maps convert well into CTB patterns, which is not the case in taiko and thus why taiko difficulties are allowed to be ranked.

If any group of people wants to change the fact that CTB difficulties are unrankable, then it needs to tackle this problem first. In other words, it needs to persuade peppy, who was the one that gave the final decision on CTB difficulties being unrankable, as well as other admins of the game that CTB difficulties should be rankable.

I, of course, fully support rankable CTB difficulties.
agreed.

I have sent a PM to peppy more than 1 year ago talking about whether CTB map can be rankable. But what I get was: "go find others opinion then reflect back to1 of the BAT, then they will disscuss in #BAT."
I have tried hard to get others attention for it, but it just end up with nothing.
That is why nowadays I give up into it.

I think if we really want this topic alive, the best idea is, we jointly send a PM to peppy again to describe the CTB status and community, explain to him there is solid reason that CTB map should be rankable.
I am afraid talking this topic here will still be finally ignored..
I am not an English native speaker, cannot write it in proper English...so if anyone interested in it, please count me in.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Louis Cyphre wrote:

offscreen droplets.
This is not rankable in osu standard unless you want to give me an example of how to do this.

taiCTB would likely just be a collaborative effort between 2 mappers. Taiko is purely rhythm based. CTB has a rhythm component, but is mostly spatial, since it lacks any definite rhythm component to gameplay. peppy would have to add in a new mode to allow both ctb and taiko to be rankable however.
Mismagius
9,261 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

ziin wrote:

Louis Cyphre wrote:

offscreen droplets.
This is not rankable in osu standard unless you want to give me an example of how to do this.
viewtopic.php?p=1272421#p1272421
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Louis Cyphre
http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=423&m=2
Offscreen big droplet or note, don't really remember
Sushi
osu! Alumni
2,989 posts
Joined October 2008
Sushi
The usual argument a.k.a. "Solo diff converts well into CtB diffs" is outdated. I'm not a CtB player, but I have close friends who play CtB and showed me stuff.
And the situation reminds me exactly what happens in taiko when you want to have a real diff translated in standard, and not just something approximative (Real taiko diff in standard, a.k.a. Taikosu!, are ugly imo, no offence taikosu! mappers).

The fact that the core of CtB is not based on rhythm makes the process difficult, yeah.

Like taiko, back in the days, we had almost no BAT that could really handle taiko, so the opinions did not reach the BAT. until real stuff arrives, etc etc. The difficulty is the one said above.

I suggest Using the guidelines said before, show some maps, explanations, and stuff like this (tools for mapping, tips, etc). Because from what I heard, CtB maps are still in kind of a blur state.


tl;dr, I'm really not against it, people should really have another look on some stuff about CtB.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro

Sushi wrote:

The usual argument a.k.a. "Solo diff converts well into CtB diffs" is outdated. I'm not a CtB player, but I have close friends who play CtB and showed me stuff.
And the situation reminds me exactly what happens in taiko when you want to have a real diff translated in standard, and not just something approximative (Real taiko diff in standard, a.k.a. Taikosu!, are ugly imo, no offence taikosu! mappers).

The fact that the core of CtB is not based on rhythm makes the process difficult, yeah.

Like taiko, back in the days, we had almost no BAT that could really handle taiko, so the opinions did not reach the BAT. until real stuff arrives, etc etc. The difficulty is the one said above.

I suggest Using the guidelines said before, show some maps, explanations, and stuff like this (tools for mapping, tips, etc). Because from what I heard, CtB maps are still in kind of a blur state.


tl;dr, I'm really not against it, people should really have another look on some stuff about CtB.
Very wise. We should start doing this - people map their CtB difficulties and show them, proving that what plays well isn't always good in standard. Let's go !

I'll bring this up in #bat.
Mercurial
Mercurial

Odaril wrote:

I'll bring this up in #bat.
How I feel now
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Louis Cyphre
The fact that the core of CtB is not based on rhythm makes the process difficult, yeah.
I don't see any reason why you think that it makes the process difficult. Hm? Any arguments?

2 CTB difficulties were ranked. And? Did anyone complain about them?
Mercurial
Mercurial
Meh, racist.

arien666
6,290 posts
Joined May 2009
arien666
Actually, people can make CtB-only difficulty setting on Song Setup like Taiko-only :3
Someone found (0=all 1=Taiko 2=CtB. But there are only 0,1 on list. So fixed like now) and added into editor

BTW, why CtB is not rankable even there's setting for CtB-only map :3...?



I hope CtB diff would be rankable soon ;___;

SPOILER


Nope, it is citrus orz
Sushi
osu! Alumni
2,989 posts
Joined October 2008
Sushi

Louis Cyphre wrote:

The fact that the core of CtB is not based on rhythm makes the process difficult, yeah.
I don't see any reason why you think that it makes the process difficult. Hm? Any arguments?

2 CTB difficulties were ranked. And? Did anyone complain about them?
Don't get the wrong idea about my words. Reactions like that will make things not go the good way.

I was talking about the process of making stuff clear, with rules and stuff.
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Louis Cyphre
I was talking about the process of making stuff clear, with rules and stuff.
Explain please what is 'making stuff clear'? Or you're worried about rules/guidelines for CtB specific difficulties?
DaxMasterix
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
1,562 posts
Joined February 2010
DaxMasterix
Just takes a Guide of ''How Mod a CtB-Diff'' And the CtB Diff's will make ''Rankeable'' orz
The same with Rules.. Specific Modders.. Etc etc.. This thread are off-topic.
Instead of Talk ''Why'' Talk about ''How''. The CtB Community need only a Guide of Rules.. ;w;

Sakura Hana wrote:

Did you guys even read the rule text before starting to throw ideas of how to make it rankable?
Derekku Says ''Correct. There's no guidelines to making them fit with ranked maps (and thus no way to mod them), so they are unrankable. ''

We need work MORE with others CtB Players For a future model for CtB-Diff's. Rly.
lol
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Louis Cyphre
Derekku Says ''Correct. There's no guidelines to making them fit with ranked maps (and thus no way to mod them), so they are unrankable. ''
Now we have them.
Weez
2,318 posts
Joined February 2009
Weez
Soo once these guidelines do make it through, (if they ever do) whos gonna mod them and such? Most MATs/BATs aren't that good with CTB and don't care (ex: here http://puu.sh/fy6T). Guidelines are fine, my worry is finding people to mod em and improve these ctb diffs. You don't want crappy diffs getting ranked without good mods.
Mercurial
Mercurial
MAT and BAT must learn about CtB Guidelines to Mod/Bubble/Rank every CtB diff, but well..

God save the CtB.
DaxMasterix
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
1,562 posts
Joined February 2010
DaxMasterix

Louis Cyphre wrote:

Derekku Says ''Correct. There's no guidelines to making them fit with ranked maps (and thus no way to mod them), so they are unrankable. ''
Now we have them.
Yep i have The PM.

Weezy wrote:

Soo once these guidelines do make it through, (if they ever do) whos gonna mod them and such? Most MATs/BATs aren't that good with CTB and don't care (ex: here http://puu.sh/fy6T). Guidelines are fine, my worry is finding people to mod em and improve these ctb diffs. You don't want crappy diffs getting ranked without good mods.
the Same with Taiko Diff.. Not all the MAT's/BAT's Know how Really ''Mod''. So.. Just the basics [Unrankeables Stuff's] Are the most Important now.
Only needs the Desicion of ''I will learn how to Mod ''CtB Diff''.. And maybe Specific Modders of ''CtB-Diff''
Last edited by DaxMasterix , edited 1 time in total.
Mercurial
Mercurial
I can learn how to mod CtB if I want :D
DaxMasterix
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
1,562 posts
Joined February 2010
DaxMasterix

iMercurial wrote:

I can learn how to mod CtB if I want :D
Much more people Too... Now work for a future better for a CtB Players! And Obviously.. Mappers xd
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