00:36 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1288245 Camellia - GHOST [SPEKTRE]]
00:36 Kaifin: ok so the first major thing about making slider maps
00:37 Kaifin: is about slider velocity
00:37 Kaifin: every slider velocity change needs to make sense and be consistent
00:37 JeZag: mhm
00:37 JeZag: i see
00:38 Kaifin: stuff like 00:26:759 (1) - is awkward because of just how fast it is for seemingly no reason
00:38 Kaifin: i understand that you map the same sound
00:38 Kaifin: fast everytime
00:38 Kaifin: but it doesnt sound like that in the music
00:38 Kaifin: you can make it faster, but maybe not such a drastic change in speed?
00:38 Kaifin: from everything eles
00:38 JeZag: ah
00:38 Kaifin: the same sort of idea can be applied to the next point
00:38 Kaifin: slider shaping
00:39 Kaifin: you switch slider shapes constantly with no consistency
00:39 Kaifin: even though the sounds remain the same
00:39 Kaifin: some variety is fine, as long as its consistent and makes sense
00:39 JeZag: ahhhhhhhh
00:39 JeZag: i see
00:39 Kaifin: example 00:26:213 (1) -
00:39 JeZag: so consistent-ish shapes
00:40 JeZag: for same sounds
00:40 Kaifin: vs 00:28:395 (1) -
00:40 Kaifin: vs 00:30:577 (1) -
00:40 Kaifin: 00:32:759 (1) -
00:40 Kaifin: all 4 of those that i linked
00:40 Kaifin: have different shapes
00:40 Kaifin: and this applies to literally every slider in this section
00:40 Kaifin: 00:43:668 -
00:40 Kaifin: this part is good
00:41 JeZag: but theres no sliders there
00:41 JeZag: :'(
00:41 Kaifin: : (
00:41 JeZag: oh god, you're going to flip out
00:41 JeZag: when you get to the kiai...
00:41 Kaifin: 00:58:395 (1,2,3,4) -
00:41 Kaifin: your stream shape kinda gets messed up here
00:42 Kaifin: when making streams think in groups of 5
00:42 Kaifin: 00:57:850 (1,2,3,4,5) -
00:42 Kaifin: 1 group of 5 looks good
00:42 JeZag: wait
00:42 Kaifin: 00:58:123 (5,6,7,8,1) -
00:42 JeZag: for that stream shape
00:42 Kaifin: 2nd group of 5 looks good
00:42 JeZag: if i want to go from CW to CCW
00:42 Kaifin: 00:58:395 (1,2,3,4,5) -
00:42 JeZag: do i just go for it
00:42 JeZag: no "buffer"?
00:42 Kaifin: what do you mean
00:42 Kaifin: show me a screenshot
00:42 Kaifin: 00:58:395 (1,2,3,4,5) - this stream shape
00:42 Kaifin: you would never use on its own
00:42 Kaifin: it looks very messed up
00:42 JeZag: i did this by hand... OOPS
00:43 Kaifin: you want clean groups of 5 [generally unless it looks nice in other ways which this one does not]
00:43 JeZag: but i wanted to go from CW curvature
00:43 JeZag: to CCW curvature
00:43 JeZag: and like tone down the CW curvature
00:43 JeZag: and you get this sorta messed up curve
00:43 Kaifin: you can turn
00:43 Kaifin: as long as its on a white tick
00:43 JeZag: i see i see
00:44 Kaifin: so the random slider shapes apply double to this section that just follows
00:44 Kaifin: you should try and have your sliders relate to each other
00:44 JeZag: mhm
00:44 Kaifin: aesthetically or pattern wise
00:44 Kaifin: it just feels like you threw a bunch of sliders on the playfield
00:44 Kaifin: with no real patterning or link between them
00:45 Kaifin: patterns are just as important with sliders
00:45 Kaifin: as they are with circles
00:45 JeZag: i see
00:45 JeZag: hmm
00:45 Kaifin: 01:05:486 (1,1,1,1) -
00:45 Kaifin: like what kind of pattern is this
00:45 Kaifin: other than just like
00:45 JeZag: one of my biggest problems
00:45 Kaifin: "these are sliders"
00:45 JeZag: is that i cant overlap
00:46 JeZag: idk how to make sliders look well while overlapping
00:46 JeZag: so i go for these wack sliders
00:46 JeZag: to fill up space
00:46 JeZag: because it looks "good" to me
00:46 Kaifin: the way i see it is
00:46 Kaifin: focus on patterns first
00:46 Kaifin: then that leads to focusings on connecting your patterns together
00:46 Kaifin: u know the idea i talked about with the stream shaping
00:46 Kaifin: at 00:57:850 -
00:46 JeZag: mhm
00:46 Kaifin: how every stream should be made up of a clean group of 5 (generally)
00:46 Kaifin: think about this for patterns
00:47 Kaifin: except way more abstractly
00:47 Kaifin: i will show you example sec
00:47 Kaifin: you know about the hexagon grid right?
00:47 JeZag: yeah
00:48 JeZag: i followed the hex grid almost religiously when i started
00:48 Kaifin: 1/np
00:48 Kaifin: 00:12:153 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) -
00:48 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/927487 EYKHA (CV : Sawashiro Miyuki) LOU (CV : Uchida Maaya) MERYL (CV : Terui Haruka) - Delta Decision [Illuminati:on]]
00:48 Kaifin: so this is like the most _extreme_ example
00:48 Kaifin: but every pattern in a hexagon grid
00:48 Kaifin: relates to the next pattern
00:48 Kaifin: because they're placed in a way where they have relation (which makes structured)
00:49 JeZag: mhm
00:49 Kaifin: now more abstractly, especially in wub mapping you need to connect your patterns in much different ways
00:49 Kaifin: than just using a grid
00:49 Kaifin: need to find a good example sec
00:50 Kaifin: okay found it
00:50 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/917176 Camellia - Exit This Earth's Atomosphere [GiRLC's Intangible]]
00:50 Kaifin: 02:06:244 -
00:50 Kaifin: this is RLC's part
00:50 Kaifin: you can tell because all the objects perfectly relate to each other and are connected
00:51 Kaifin: just watching the whole segment do you understand what i mean
00:51 JeZag: yeah
00:51 JeZag: the parts girl mapped
00:51 JeZag: are a bit obv when you compare them to RLC's
00:52 Kaifin: like
00:52 Kaifin: 02:02:008 -
00:52 Kaifin: 02:02:008 (1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2) -
00:52 Kaifin: whats really the pattern here
00:52 Kaifin: there is a light zig zag thing kind of
00:52 Kaifin: but really the pattern is less "this is a cool pattern"
00:52 Kaifin: and more "these are 1/4 sliders wow"
00:52 Kaifin: you cant let simply mapping stuff as 1/4 sliders be the pattern
00:53 Kaifin: compared to 02:07:655 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - from rlc's part
00:53 Kaifin: very clear connected patterns
00:53 JeZag: do you have a portion where
00:53 Kaifin: which lead into the next pattern
00:53 JeZag: RLC does 1/4 sliders in a row well?
00:54 JeZag: consecutively, like what girl tried to do
00:54 Kaifin: unfortunately no but i have a different example i can think of
00:54 Kaifin: cause rlc didnt map more than 2 1/4 in a row in this map
00:54 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1029677 Getty vs. DJ DiA - Fox4-Raize- [Extreme]]
00:54 Kaifin: my map cause i cant think of anything else, i was still kind of noob to this stuff when i made this though
00:54 JeZag: haha i have it
00:54 Kaifin: 00:29:612 -
00:55 Kaifin: to 00:31:037 - is all 1/4 sliders
00:55 JeZag: so from what im seeing
00:55 JeZag: you're making each slider engaging by changing SV and shape
00:55 Kaifin: the thing to take away from
00:55 Kaifin: is the patterning
00:55 JeZag: its obv they're paired
00:55 Kaifin: not the velocity or the shapes
00:55 Kaifin: so remember the thing about streams, groups of 5 that are connected at the beginnings/ends
00:56 JeZag: hmm
00:56 Kaifin: of each group of 5 notes?
00:56 Kaifin: its like that for the patterns
00:56 Kaifin: 00:29:612 (1,2,1) -
00:56 Kaifin: 1 pattern
00:56 JeZag: ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
00:56 Kaifin: if you played jsut this on its own, it'd be a clear pattern
00:56 Kaifin: 00:29:912 (1,2,1) -
00:56 JeZag: i see i see
00:56 Kaifin: this motion, a clear pattern as well
00:56 JeZag: 00:30:812 (1,2,1) -
00:56 Kaifin: 00:30:212 (1,2,1) - this ones a bit weaker, but its strucutred to make up for it
00:56 Kaifin: with 00:30:662 (2) -
00:56 JeZag: i see i see
00:56 Kaifin: like i said i was still a bit noob :^)
00:57 Kaifin: also, because of hte sound you could argue that
00:57 Kaifin: having 00:30:212 (1,2,1,2) - as a whole
00:57 JeZag: wow but thats still tons more
00:57 Kaifin: is a pattern
00:57 JeZag: than i put in... orz
00:57 Kaifin: because think of it like
00:57 Kaifin: an X
00:57 JeZag: yeah yeah
00:57 Kaifin: with 00:30:212 (1,2) - and 00:30:512 (1,2) - being different shapes to emphasize the sounds
00:57 JeZag: on top of that, zig zagging feels nice
00:59 Kaifin: anyways that covers most of the patterning stuff
00:59 Kaifin: you also have to think about stuff like slider flow more, but that comes with patterning
00:59 JeZag: okei back to my map for a sec
00:59 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1288245 Camellia - GHOST [SPEKTRE]]
00:59 Kaifin: stuff like 03:31:939 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) -
00:59 Kaifin: is a good idea
00:59 JeZag: so its pretty obv from my first kiai time
01:00 JeZag: that i done goofed
01:00 Kaifin: i wish that 03:33:439 (2) - was a part of this
01:00 Kaifin: this is a pattern
01:00 Kaifin: its good and almost fully realized
01:00 JeZag: shape
01:00 Kaifin: the next point however is
01:00 JeZag: or placement
01:00 Kaifin: as in placement
01:00 Kaifin: and shape i guess too
01:00 Kaifin: its not placed as a part of the patter so it doesnt transition well
01:00 JeZag: i see
01:01 JeZag: 03:33:711 (3) -
01:01 Kaifin: 04:13:937 (3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) -
01:01 JeZag: is this location fine?
01:01 JeZag: i dont want to put it at 03:33:302 (1) -
01:01 Kaifin: i get that theres a pattern here, but it feels weak because of all the overlapping
01:01 JeZag: because its on a different beat
01:01 Kaifin: yeah 3 is fine
01:01 JeZag: which overlaps weaken it particularly?
01:01 JeZag: 04:14:619 (4) -
01:01 JeZag: is this one like really bad
01:02 Kaifin: the whole thing
01:02 Kaifin: is pretty fucked
01:02 JeZag: i see
01:02 Kaifin: i guess that one in particular
01:02 Kaifin: but its literally the whole thing
01:02 Kaifin: cause theres no seperation between each group of 4
01:02 Kaifin: its just a big clump of notes
01:02 JeZag: 04:13:937 (3,4,1,2) -
01:02 JeZag: small clusters like these
01:02 JeZag: are they fine?
01:03 JeZag: 04:15:846 (1,2,3,4) -
01:03 Kaifin: yeah, those are fine
01:03 JeZag: 04:14:755 (1,2,3,4) -
01:03 Kaifin: im talking about
01:03 Kaifin: how the patterns overlap each other
01:03 Kaifin: like
http://puu.sh/vOtUe/2f0beb152d.jpg01:03 Kaifin: looking at this
01:03 Kaifin: its just kind of a mess
01:03 JeZag: my hope was that
01:03 JeZag: with the high AR
01:03 JeZag: it would be better to read ;w;
01:03 Kaifin: its not about reading its about aesthetic
01:03 Kaifin: and structure
01:03 Kaifin: the player can feel
01:03 Kaifin: if the map isnt structured well
01:04 Kaifin: because it feels off and bad to play
01:04 JeZag: ahh
01:04 JeZag: when is overlapping ok?
01:04 Kaifin: when theres a reason fro it
01:04 Kaifin: and its consistent
01:04 JeZag: i see
01:04 Kaifin: there is no real like
01:05 Kaifin: guideline of when its okay to overlap and when its not
01:05 JeZag: 04:09:164 (2,1) -
01:05 Kaifin: and its partially taste
01:05 JeZag: smalle stuff like this
01:05 JeZag: is ok?
01:05 JeZag: 04:10:664 (1,3) -
01:05 Kaifin: yes
01:05 Kaifin: let me give you an example
01:05 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/692088 Rise Against - Drones [Extra]]
01:05 Kaifin: 01:21:075 -
01:05 Kaifin: good use of overlaps
01:06 JeZag: in general, pishi and oko
01:06 JeZag: are really good at making overlaps in jumps easy to read yet fun
01:06 JeZag: i feel like
01:06 JeZag: personally i dont get aesthetics when sliders overlap
01:06 JeZag: but its an exp thing i feel
01:06 JeZag: and im not good enough to play the ones that do...
01:07 Kaifin: the next thing and last thing is
01:07 Kaifin: about aesthetics
01:07 Kaifin: slider shaping specifically
01:07 JeZag: mhm
01:07 Kaifin: ugly is subjective
01:07 Kaifin: but your map is kind of objectively ugly
01:07 JeZag: LOL
01:07 Kaifin: because of the lack of consistency between slider shapes
01:07 Kaifin: + the actual shapes themselves
01:07 JeZag: i see
01:07 JeZag: hmm
01:08 JeZag: what does that mean
01:08 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1219210 Pa's Lam System - City Lights Feat. EVO+ , Jinmenusagi (Pa's Lam System Remix) [byfar x handsome]]
01:08 JeZag: like i get what it means to be consistent with other sliders
01:08 Kaifin: see how all these sliders
01:08 Kaifin: look like they relate to each other
01:09 JeZag: yeah
01:09 JeZag: wow
01:09 Kaifin: stylistically, pattern wise, and with the sounds
01:09 Kaifin: 00:41:379 -
01:09 Kaifin: while still being unique to each sound
01:10 Kaifin: now when i said
01:10 Kaifin: "ugly is subjective"
01:10 Kaifin: what i really meant by that is
01:10 Kaifin: ugly is contextual
01:10 Kaifin: 01:19:035 (1) -
01:10 Kaifin: lets say you threw this slider in any random map
01:10 Kaifin: some random anime map
01:10 Kaifin: it would be ugly as hell
01:10 Kaifin: this ugly janky ass shape
01:11 JeZag: LOL
01:11 Kaifin: stuff like 02:12:414 (2) -
01:11 Kaifin: its all complete context
01:11 Kaifin: but you need to create context
01:11 Kaifin: if you use shapes like that
01:11 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/990949 Nekomata Master+ - Funny shuffle [pishi's Extra]]
01:11 Kaifin: 00:09:676 (1,2) -
01:11 Kaifin: in a normal map
01:12 Kaifin: these would look and play like ass
01:12 JeZag: but in the context
01:12 Kaifin: same with stuff lik 00:20:372 (1,1) -
01:12 JeZag: they fit perfect
01:12 Kaifin: but the context of the map is that its using right angles
01:12 Kaifin: exactly
01:12 Kaifin: it fits
01:12 Kaifin: now sometimes context goes a bit far and you get stuff like alien
01:12 Kaifin: im assuming you've seen alien
01:13 Kaifin: the monstrata 8 star
01:13 *Kaifin is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/978026 MAXIMUM THE HORMONE - A-L-I-E-N [Stop! Stop Winny Upload!!]]
01:13 JeZag: mhm
01:13 Kaifin: every slider is ugly
01:13 JeZag: 02:26:362 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -
01:13 Kaifin: now does every slider being ugly mean that they all fit together
01:13 Kaifin: and none of them are ugly in context?
01:14 Kaifin: that is in the eye of the beholder
01:14 Kaifin: and why there was so much drama about the map
01:14 Kaifin: also yeah this patterning is lazy lol
01:14 JeZag: mhm
01:14 JeZag: aye
01:14 Kaifin: its just zig zag ----> star ---> zig zag ----> star ----> zig zag ----> zig zag
01:14 Kaifin: in alien that is
01:14 Kaifin: at 02:26:362 -
01:15 JeZag: yep
01:15 Kaifin: monstrata maps
01:15 JeZag: also, question
01:16 JeZag: back to my map
01:16 Kaifin: ye
01:16 JeZag: how would you go about mapping the fast slider part
01:16 JeZag: 03:12:302 (1) -
01:16 JeZag: because when i was mapping this
01:16 JeZag: it really does look good to me, and they do look like they fit together
01:16 JeZag: obv now lots less so
01:16 JeZag: but how would you map something like this
01:16 Kaifin: so the first thing you need to think about is the flow
01:17 Kaifin: before worrying about aesthetic
01:17 JeZag: to make it feel "overwhelming"
01:17 Kaifin: 03:12:302 (1,1) -
01:17 JeZag: 03:12:302 (1) -
01:17 JeZag: is going down
01:17 JeZag: 03:12:575 (1) -
01:17 JeZag: this goes left
01:17 JeZag: bad?
01:17 Kaifin: this slider flow isn't good, coming out of the 03:12:302 (1) - makes you feel like you should be going down and to the right
01:17 Kaifin: a placement more like this
01:17 Kaifin:
http://puu.sh/vOulp/1fa2c6ffd9.jpg01:17 Kaifin: would be better
01:17 Kaifin: for flow
01:17 JeZag: ahh
01:17 JeZag: i see
01:18 Kaifin: as for making it feel overwhelming
01:18 Kaifin: it doesnt feel overwhelming as is, it feels random
01:18 JeZag: ahhh
01:18 JeZag: i see the difference now
01:18 JeZag: but if i want it to be overwhelming
01:18 JeZag: while still only being able to do 1/2 3/4 sliders as is
01:18 JeZag: is the current SV
01:18 JeZag: and DS between sliders
01:18 JeZag: good?
01:18 Kaifin: then using the high velocity is the way to do it
01:19 Kaifin: you dont need to DS between sliders
01:19 JeZag: i just need better flow, better shapes?
01:19 Kaifin: it doesnt have to be like
01:19 Kaifin: consistent DS or anything
01:19 Kaifin: you need better flow + shapes
01:19 JeZag: i see
01:19 Kaifin: that will make it look cooler
01:19 Kaifin: play better
01:19 Kaifin: and give the feel you want
01:19 JeZag: any shapes in particular that are just straight up bad?
01:19 Kaifin: is all of them an answer
01:19 Kaifin: it would be better to say what shapes are good
01:19 JeZag: ah
01:19 Kaifin: 03:12:575 (1) - i like this one
01:19 JeZag: which shapes are good
01:20 JeZag: for this part
01:20 JeZag: why are simple sliders bad?
01:20 JeZag: 03:13:121 (1,2) -
01:20 Kaifin: im excluding basic shapes cause like obviously 03:13:121 (1,2) - are fine
01:20 JeZag: oh
01:20 Kaifin: simple sliders raent really bad
01:20 Kaifin: just like for this sound its kind of weird and random
01:20 Kaifin: that you use simple sliders
01:20 Kaifin: after these weird ones
01:20 JeZag: i see i see
01:20 JeZag: so i either go all in
01:20 JeZag: or not at all
01:20 Kaifin: its like if monstrata stopped halfway through that alien screaming section
01:20 Kaifin: and made smooth sliders instead
01:20 Kaifin: yeah
01:20 Kaifin: all in or nothing
01:20 JeZag: haha
01:21 JeZag: 03:14:211 (1) -
01:21 JeZag: whats bad about this one
01:21 Kaifin:
http://puu.sh/vOusu/712713652d.jpg01:21 Kaifin: this curve is frucked
01:21 Kaifin: all the shapes have _potential_ to be good for the most part
01:21 Kaifin: but its the context thats making them ugly
01:21 JeZag: hmmmm
01:21 JeZag: i dont think i get why the curve is fucked
01:22 JeZag: the head is too short?
01:22 JeZag: or the fact
01:22 JeZag: that it shouldnt overlap with 03:13:666 (1) -
01:22 Kaifin: the curve is too small
01:23 JeZag: 03:14:211 (1,2) -
01:23 Kaifin: more like
http://puu.sh/vOuvZ/17f117c83c.jpg is better but still looks abit bad
01:23 JeZag: would you consider this pair
01:23 JeZag: to be "good flow"?
01:23 Kaifin: yea they're decent
01:23 Kaifin: maybe pull 03:14:484 (2) - back a little
01:23 JeZag: also, why does the slider you linked
01:23 JeZag: look bad
01:23 Kaifin: and the way they related to each other
01:23 JeZag: still too little curve?
01:23 Kaifin: too little curve, but as long as its parallel with the curve from 03:14:211 (1) -
01:23 Kaifin: itll look good
01:23 Kaifin: im not gonna go through every slider
01:24 Kaifin: and tell you why it looks bad
01:24 Kaifin: because that would be a waste of time for both of us
01:24 JeZag: alright
01:24 JeZag: but as long as i can fix flow
01:24 JeZag: and make things related
01:24 JeZag: then this section is good to go
01:24 Kaifin: thats a bit of a
01:24 Kaifin: tall undertaking
01:24 Kaifin: but if you can fix the flow
01:24 JeZag: yeahhhhhhh
01:24 Kaifin: make things related both pattern wise and aesthetically
01:24 Kaifin: then yes
01:24 Kaifin: 03:16:393 -
01:24 Kaifin: why isnt this clickable
01:24 Kaifin: its so clickable sounding
01:25 JeZag: yeah, i was debating between clicking and not click
01:25 Kaifin: make it click
01:25 JeZag: but i thought it would be better to play as a slider
01:25 Kaifin: itll play worse cause it sounds so clickabl
01:25 JeZag: is having two hitcircles there
01:25 Kaifin: 03:27:302 (2,3,4) -
01:25 JeZag: and then 03:16:598 (1,2) - as is
01:25 JeZag: still good?
01:25 Kaifin: because of your rhythms so far, this will 100% be read as 1é4
01:25 Kaifin: 1/4
01:25 Kaifin: with the spacing
01:26 JeZag: hmmmm
01:26 Kaifin: yes its fine
01:26 Kaifin: like that
01:26 JeZag: most testplayers didnt misread that
01:26 Kaifin: ok
01:27 JeZag: alright thanks a lot for your time!
01:27 JeZag: ;w; i have a lot of stuff to clean up