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[Rule Removal/Change] Number of specific diffs per mapset

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Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Topic Starter
Deif
  1. Having just one CtB difficulty is allowed in an osu!standard mapset because standard difficulties are converted correctly to CtB. Thus, in Taiko or osu!mania mapsets you need at least 2 CtB difficulties since Taiko and osu!mania can't be converted to CtB.
This rule is totally out-to-date and should be nuked. Nowadays converted CtB diffs (talking about the highest difficulty in an osu!standard beatmap) are a total disaster in most of the cases. Either they're boring to play or pretty uncorfortable or even "impossible" to FC due to the overuse of slider-jumps and other kind of spreaded 1/4 sliders. The rule was quite okay 1-2 years ago, but it's time to evolve and reword this rule:

...into something like this:

  1. Having just one CtB difficulty is allowed in an osu!standard mapset if it isn't an Overdose level (or an Extra icon CtB difficulty), because standard difficulties are converted correctly to CtB. Thus, in Taiko or osu!mania mapsets you need at least 2 CtB difficulties since Taiko and osu!mania can't be converted to CtB.
According to this rule change, the allowed cases would be the following ones (correct me if I'm wrong):
  1. Mapset with an osu!standard spread + mode specific difficulties: Not necessary to make a full spread of them. Having difficulties from the "Hard" level and on would be enough. e.g. std ENHI + Taiko HI / std ENHIX + CtB HIX.
  2. Mapset with specific difficulties only: A full spread of each participant game mode is required, applying also the rule "The mapset must have a well-designed spread of difficulties, containing at least an Easy or a Normal difficulty". e.g. 7K ENHI + CtB NHI
Please discuss~
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari
Going to voice my opinion as a convert-heavy player and a mode specific mapper here.

Deif wrote:

This rule is totally out-to-date and should be nuked. Nowadays converted CtB diffs (talking about the highest difficulty in an osu!standard beatmap) are a total disaster in most of the cases. Either they're boring to play or pretty uncorfortable or even "impossible" to FC due to the overuse of slider-jumps and other kind of spreaded 1/4 sliders.
I'm going to have to disagree with this. The level of convert quality for CtB is vastly superior to that of Taiko/Mania. Only a few maps actually fit with what you're saying here and I don't think that these exceptions should be made into the rule. I find lots of converts much more enjoyable than the current spread of CtB-specific difficulties we have.

We are also currently lacking in mode-specific difficulties when you compare us to the other modes, I think this rule would just widen this gap and make people less open to taking GDs then they already are.

Could offer more here but I can't really word it properly.
Kingkevin30
629 posts
Joined November 2010
Kingkevin30

Riari wrote:

I find lots of converts much more enjoyable than the current spread of CtB-specific difficulties we have.

We are also currently lacking in mode-specific difficulties when you compare us to the other modes, I think this rule would just widen this gap and make people less open to taking GDs then they already are.
i really agree with these arguments...since im mainly a player my perspective is focused on the pure enjoyment i get out of converts/specifics
for me Specifics always had a feel of beeing "calculated", and while this is a interesting new perspective that hasn't been seen before it sometimes
changes into a feeling of "uncreative" stagnation. This doesn't mean i want to have a proper spread, since as Riari already said, getting CTB Diffs ranked is already hard enough with the few CTB Mappers that exist, so that would just stagnate the ranking of possible new interesting maps even more..
so im fine with the " 1 Specific is fine - Rule"
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
I agree with Riari here however there are cases where an extra CtB difficulty would be nice to be added. That is the case of X diffs. In a mixed set, standard difficulties gives sometime no challenge to fc them while the CtB is almost impossible for a casual player. Although it would be better to handle this on case by case basis that would make the whole system even more confusing since this gap mostly probably only recognizable at near qualified (if not qualified) status. So I think something like this would be nice to be added:
Having only one CtB difficulty in a mixed mapset is fine however if the difficulty is X then its highly recommendable to add an easier difficulty as well.

I can't really use pretty words but I think its easy enough to understand what I wanted to say. o.o

Edit: Btw I already said this once.
Xinely
5,014 posts
Joined April 2012
Xinely
well i could say, if the highest difficulty in standard is Insane so CtB only allowed for Rain if the mapset only 1 CtB and if the highest difficulty in standard is Extra so CtB only allowed to get Overdose in the mapset has 1 CtB only
Heterozygous_old
Heterozygous_old
What I interpret to the rule is that CtB don't need easier diffs since converted maps of that level are mostly decent, so the bad conversion of the top standard diffs in the set shouldn't be affecting. Instead, as a solution to the bad conversion, how about something like:
  1. Having just one CtB difficulty is allowed in an osu!standard mapset, but the highest difficulty should not be "far less challenging" (requesting clearer boundaries) than hardest standard conversion(s) in the set.
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari

Heterozygous wrote:

What I interpret to the rule is that CtB don't need easier diffs since converted maps of that level are mostly decent, so the bad conversion of the top standard diffs in the set shouldn't be affecting. Instead, as a solution to the bad conversion, how about something like:
  1. Having just one CtB difficulty is allowed in an osu!standard mapset, but the highest difficulty should not be "far less challenging" (requesting clearer boundaries) than hardest standard conversion(s) in the set.
You want the opposite here. The hardest CtB difficulty should not out-scale the standard one.

Xinely has the right idea here in my opinion, if the lowest CtB diff icon is above that of the highest standard difficulty, an extra and easier difficulty should be required to fix the spread.

I think this would be an acceptable variation as since the mapset would have Standard as it's main focus, it's not really logical to have a different gamemode with the hardest difficulty.
Heterozygous_old
Heterozygous_old
@Riari In fact what I'm trying to say is that CtB diffs shouldn't be way easier than the hardest standard conversions, so that the players don't have to play conversions just as a compromise to "outrageous" than "babyish". I'm not saying that CtB diffs need to go beyond the standard diffs, just mentioning that CtB mappers need to be aware of the possible gap.

Edit: Pretty much what Kurokami have said above, but if there's only one CtB diff, then this only diff should fill the gap if there is one.
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust
Giving this a bump. Try and bring this discussion to a close within a week and we'll either bubble/flame depending on the outcome!
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
I've even seen mapsets with 2 ctb specific diffs on a standard mapset where the hardest convert barely plays like a Platter and then the ctb specific are relatively hard, and a 3rd diff would have really been good. But that's taking it too far, so I agree with Deif on the proposed change.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
I still can just only say the same. With this change we force mappers to include an easier difficulty as well even though that Rain (for example) could be a really easy one. I still think this should only be applied if the easiest included CtB specific difficulty is on Extra level.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
I find it maybe reasonable to add some "at least Platter" clause here. I find it weird to see only 1 CtB diff, which is mostly a Rain or even an Overdose at cases, whereas the conversions from the Insane are by far piss-easy and the spread suffers severely. Allowing 1 CtB diff per se is fine, imo. But if you only do 1, it should be a Platter or below. If you want to map Rain or Overdose, you should at least have a Platter.

That's my opinion. Keep discussing.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

Kurokami wrote:

I still can just only say the same. With this change we force mappers to include an easier difficulty as well even though that Rain (for example) could be a really easy one. I still think this should only be applied if the easiest included CtB specific difficulty is on Extra level.
Even so, differences between specific and converts mainly start appearing on Platters, so it wouldn't hurt to add it, even if the Rain is easy.

Loctav wrote:

I find it maybe reasonable to add some "at least Platter" clause here. I find it weird to see only 1 CtB diff, which is mostly a Rain or even an Overdose at cases, whereas the conversions from the Insane are by far piss-easy and the spread suffers severely. Allowing 1 CtB diff per se is fine, imo. But if you only do 1, it should be a Platter or below. If you want to map Rain or Overdose, you should at least have a Platter.

That's my opinion. Keep discussing.
"At least Platter" also goes a bit too far because you'd need a Platter + Rain + Overdose (if you want an Overdose, that's it).

------

So, considering that (1) Most complicated cases occur when there's a Rain or Overdose (or both) in a standard mapsets where converts are easy and that (2) when specific diffs are Platter level or below spreads usually work fine, these rules should be changed to something like this (feel free to destroy wording)

A mapset cannot have just one Taiko, Catch the Beat or osu!mania difficulty. If you decide, for example, to include Taiko in your map, make sure you have at least 2 Taiko mode difficulties and that one of them is of an easier difficulty level if it doesn't have an osu! standard Easy level difficulty.
Having just one CtB difficulty is allowed in an osu!standard mapset only if it's Platter level or below.
This way we'll secure a minimum 2 diffs when there's a Rain or an Overdose (so either Platter + Rain or Rain + Overdose). However, this will not prevent cases where the converts are easy and the CtB specifics are hard, but then we have other rule on our side (" In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion").

Based on this last rule, BNs and QATs could enforce the Platter in case it's required (for example, I suggested to add a Platter here, but I wasn't a BN back then). After all, Ranking Criteria is comprised of necessary but not suficient requirements for a map to be of good quality. So, in addition to only checking the ctb diffs, BNs and QATs should check if the standard diffs create a proper spread leading to the CtB specifics, which would only require testplaying the standard diffs in CtB mode.
Last edited by ZiRoX , edited 2 times in total.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
Nah, platters are mostly not harder than any converted Insane. Playing with No-Mod that it. Rain+ Overdose seems good but Platter + Rain is a bit meh. Its like ENHI+IX (if we look the CtB diff from a converted view). I'm personally not against it but in a case of Rain adding an easier difficulty should be up to the BNs. If the Rain is hard (thinking here about one with many HDash, complex patterns), Platter must be added if not than it could be allowed.
MBomb
MBomb
I agree with Kurokami's earlier idea of making 2 difficulties if the one CtB difficulty is an overdose. In my opinion, as he also said, Converted Insanes in general are around the same difficulty as Platter, so the spread should still feel fine, imo. However, if the mapset has an extra that converts to a similar kind of difficulty to a rain, I feel only having an overdose should be fine. I also think that if this rule did get implemented as at least one difficulty has to be a platter or below, you should be allowed to do Platter and Overdose only, provided the song has a difficulty that converts similar to the difficulty of a rain. There is one ranked mapset if I remember correctly, that has a Salad and Rain, but not a Platter, and I feel this kind of thing should be fine if there's a standard difficulty that converts to that kind of difficulty.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Write up a useable rule then? o:
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,019 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
So it's come to this?

Having just one CtB difficulty is allowed in an osu!standard mapset only if it isn't Overdose level, because standard difficulties are converted correctly to CtB. Thus, in Taiko or osu!mania mapsets you need at least 2 CtB difficulties since Taiko and osu!mania can't be converted to CtB.
In cases where the Rain is hard (thus it should be fine with this single diff, according to this rule) and the standard set converts to easy diffs, we should still apply the fact that "spread evaluation is upon the BNs discretion". I would like to give that sentence some more spotlight, as it will be our key to enforce proper spreads in cases where it's necessary.
Mercurial
Mercurial

ZiRoX wrote:

Having just one CtB difficulty is allowed in an osu!standard mapset only if it isn't Overdose level, because standard difficulties are converted correctly to CtB. Thus, in Taiko or osu!mania mapsets you need at least 2 CtB difficulties since Taiko and osu!mania can't be converted to CtB.
What if

  • - You can have one CtB diff in your mapset as long as its difficulty isn't higher than Platter, however, if the difficulty is above Platter then its highly recommendable to add an easier difficulty as well.
Just rewording what Kurokami said.
MBomb
MBomb
Ok, here's my take on what the rule should be:

You can have 1 CtB difficulty in a mapset as long as the spread is consistent with the standard difficulties. This is because standard converts correctly to CtB, and so as long as the standard difficulties can cover the lower difficulties, a higher difficulty is fine. However, mapping just an overdose is not recommended, and in cases where there is doubt, spread evaluation is upon the BN's discretion.
Zoe
149 posts
Joined June 2011
Zoe

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

Ok, here's my take on what the rule should be:

You can have 1 CtB difficulty in a mapset as long as the spread is consistent with the standard difficulties. This is because standard converts correctly to CtB, and so as long as the standard difficulties can cover the lower difficulties, a higher difficulty is fine. However, mapping just an overdose is not recommended, and in cases where there is doubt, spread evaluation is upon the BN's discretion.
^
I agree with this, because not every standard map is a horrible convert. If the CtB diff fits with the converted standard mapset, it should be allowed, and this should be judged on a per-map basis.
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