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[Gen][Rule] About requring an Easy Taiko diff.

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Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Current rule in RC wiki stands:
make sure you have at least 2 Taiko mode difficulties and that one of them is of an easier difficulty level if it doesn't have an osu! standard Easy level difficulty.

And 5 months ago it was discussed in the announcement that it is required only if the Standard Easy/Normal doesn't convert well to a Taiko Easy: p/1783130 but looks like never was updated in the RC, so i'm bringing this back here for re-discussion to make the ammendement to.

make sure you have at least 2 Taiko mode difficulties and that one of them is of an easier difficulty level if it doesn't have an osu! standard difficulty that converts well to a Taiko Easy level difficulty at the discretion of the staff.

This should have been done 5 months ago, but it was forgotten and i'm not sure if it's being followed like this already or not, so discuss.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
If we do this shouldn't it apply to any gamemode. Why is taiko different than the other gamemodes?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
I think it already applies to Mania, and CtB isn't in rankable state yet (as in solo-mapsets)
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos

TheVileOne wrote:

If we do this shouldn't it apply to any gamemode. Why is taiko different than the other gamemodes?
Taiko has the worst osu beatmap translation. osu!mania's is really good (even though it doesn't feel exactly like o2jam/stepmania), and CtB's is good too. It was obvious that people were not learning how to play harder maps through osu translated maps.

I don't mind the rule for osu!mania and CtB though. It does have it's benefits, and if either gamemode transforms their style to a point where the translation doesn't work good anymore, the easy difficulties will go with them.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane

Mithost wrote:

Taiko has the worst osu beatmap translation
This is the main reason of that rule.

Taiko translation is only good if the map has tickrate 1, above this value is just spam of don/kat every half/third/quarter/etc beat, making it annoying for low skilled players in Taiko, and we mustn't enforce a rule of tickrate of 1 for osu! maps just for the sake of a good translation in Taiko.

I think lower Taiko difficulties must be enforced to use if the tickrate of lower osu! diffs are 2 or higher, if that's not the case, low diffs can be optional.

I'm ok if Futsuu (Normal) diffs are encouraged to use in mixed mapsets.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Kantans are extremly simple made. If you ever played at least one or two Kantan Diffs, you'll have no real problems to map it. The same up to Futsuu. The only thing you have to take care at Futsuus is to keep simple and not that pattern (like five circles in a row and then a 1/1 break)

The problem I see behind mixed Mapsets is the Tickrate, as Dake more or less mentioned. Actually it's quiet possible to clear these TR2 Sliderrolls up by using both Drum centre and rim buttons but of course this needs time to control it and Beginner Diff should just not expect these things.

I wouldn't mind if the Rule about consistent Tick Rate is getting a bit looser for mixed Mapsets which also includes CtB and o!m.
(Actually I have found the Rule about Tick Rate nowhere in Guidelines or Rules. Or am I just blind?)
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
I agree with you Sakura. Somehow this got forgoten to be added into the RC wiki.
Right now I'm not sure if everyone has followed the rule - you know, I don't play anymore that much as in the past -, but most of the mappers as I can see, follow this rule. Just need to check it out on the BSS to notice the treat of this rule - some maps sets have only one difficultie because of the submission date.

Anyway, the rule you suggested(or rather guideline?) is overall fine, but I have still a question, which I mentioned 5 months ago somewhere:
The easier difficultie must not be a Muzukashii, right? Because sometimes we have songs which call for a really hard difficultie, which of course most mapper make. But problem here is the treat of the next easier Taiko difficultie, which is often refered to, to be a Muzukashii or lower. This would mean we would have a really bad spread between these two difficulties.

So it is fine to have an easier Oni for better spreads, as the rule says: ...one of them is of an easier difficulty level...?
At least I would suggest that. Also because at our current state we would be able to loosen it a bit up since we are getting more and more Taiko-Sets ranked with lower taiko difficulties.

tl;dr: In that meaning, making this to a guideline which referes rather to an overall easier difficultie instead to a Muzukashii/Futsuu/Kantan would be perfectly fine.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Yes, "easier" is too relative as term to be used here.
Maybe use some wording like "beginner-friendly"
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
I think Muzukashii Difficulties should suffice for most cases of this rule. It is true that quite a bit of Muzukashii diffs are just Oni's dropped down, but it's the right idea. This rule was applied at the same time Taiko only mapsets were allowed, so with easy/normal osu translations and the growing full taiko mapsets, it is becoming easier and easier to learn how to play the harder difficulties of taiko (what the two rules were implemented for).

I understand the concern though. It should be more specific. I think it should be somewhere around this: If you include any taiko difficulties in your mapset, make sure that one of them is playable for a relative beginner to taiko. If one of your easy difficulties translates into something similar to a Futuu or Kataan taiko difficulty, you may use this as your beginner difficulty.

I still want to compile an updated list of good osu>taiko translations plus good taiko learning material.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
So, what are we gonna do now?

Probably we will have more and more ranked taiko sets in the future, and this rule was normaly made to "force" people to learn how to map easier diffculties and give lower players the possibility to be able to play Taiko as well. But now since we have ranked taiko sets with easier diffs is the question: Do we even need this nowadays and in future?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Yes, we do.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
You should provide a longer reasoning, Sakura.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Because all game modes are affected by the easy diff requirement rule as long as that rule doesnt change they all will keep being affected, however you can still skip the easy diff if an standard diff is deemed good enough in translation (hence why CTB can bypass this easily), there is/was a discussion in the BAT only section about changing the Approval criteria so to allow mapsets without easier diffs again, maybe you could go through that scenario, if it passes.

Sorry i thought it was obvious enough :P
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
I assume the continuation of this discussion is for taiko only mapsets, so no standard maps here.
Standard maps don't require an easy, they just require and easy enough diff to get ranked. I guess people are wondering what about taiko here.

To be honest, since taiko is affected by BPM much more than standard, I would suggest 150BPM as the limit for requiring a Kantan diff (<150 BPM no need to map kantan).
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
Woah there cubes, that is a little vague. 150 BPM can have many different paces depending on the beat.

Can't we just use common sense on what is easy enough, or requires and easier diff, just like we do in osu! ?
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Just suggesting. I know it's vague. :(
Sorry.

MMzz wrote:

Can't we just use common sense on what is easy enough, or requires and easier diff, just like we do in osu! ?
Yeah, but it would be really good if we could define a "line", cause in standard you have star rating 3 (+-some). Even though star rating is broken, it's accurate enough for those lower diffs to judge note density and stuff. Taiko has no such a thing. :c
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Kantan/Futsuu level is enough for me (if mappers want both, up to them, but diff spread must be ok) for Taiko specific mapsets, this rule was supposedly talking about hybrid (Standard + Taiko) mapsets, since at the time i made this thread, we were already doing it, but no change was made to the wiki, so I made this to make it more official.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
I agree with MMzz. For now it should be common sense because there can't be made any defined 'line' if nearly no one even knows how a proper Kantan or Futsuu needs to be mapped. We don't have any mapping guide for it yet. Most people don't even understand the Taiko star raiting so we can't talk about defined 'lines' yet.
Yes, I will add one of course. Soon enough. But this needs some time and discussion with really experienced mappers, so for now using common sense should be fine. After all, it has worked so far with additional help from modding.

But even so, I think having an easier difficultie for another certain diff. should be enough as well.
Inner Oni - Oni
Oni - Muzukashii
Muzukahii - Futsuu
etc..

The reason for this suggestion is that we still have huge problems when it comes about mapping high BPM maps. The diff. spread would become way too high, even from Oni to Muzukashii. Right now the common 'rule' is to use rather a maximum of 5-plets and monton tripplets in a Muzukashii. Now imagine someone wants to map a high BPM map with the usage of a common Oni with its complex patterns and a Muzukashii which only contains monoton tripplets, mostly 1/2 notes and etc.. Or Futsuu and Oni...

Or lolcube's example about really low BPM maps. This happened already a few times.

So just saying Kantan/Futsuu level is enough wouldn't be enough.

tl;dr: I suggest to lower the restriction just by saying that people should add to a certain taiko difficultie another diff-spread friendly and easier diff.. So the mapper can deal with high and low BPM maps and the from MMzz called "common sense" would become a fair treatment.

After all, osu defined its difficulties already. Taiko is still in the development phase.

After I made with the other guys an elaborated guilde for mapping the different diffs. and more, we could think about having some clear said words. Right now it probably wouldn't work and lead to endless discussions with mapper and modder which could be prevented.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Want me to change/delete the rule without you as I want?
If not, live up please.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
You are not supposed to change rules on own behalf without an appropriate conclusion. Feel free to gather agreement from other users, but just because no one reacts on your suggestion, it doesn't mean that you can simply change it.

From what I see, this discussion leads to a "No Change" instead of a "Rule removal"
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Of course I'm not. Just wanted to express that this takes too long.
Well, but you are right. Probably I should gather some agreements.
I hope Sakura is gonna read them as well.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar
I read this thread and to be honest I really don't understand what the thread is trying to get to. As far as difficulty level/spread goes, they are supposed to follow the same rules as standard (as stated in the general ranking criteria). Minimum of two difficulties, one of which must be a easy/normal level. The only exception has been for sets that contain both standard and taiko difficulties, where a standard easy/normal can substitute for the Taiko easy/normal unless the standard easy/normal converts to something completely unplayable/unreadable/whatever. This applies to the other modes as well.

tl;dr after reading this thread I still can't understand what is wrong with the current spread rules and what people are suggesting exactly
Sorry in advance if I got the wrong idea; I wish somebody could clarify more what the point is of this thread

Okay, I understand now, I never knew the RC was never updated. I don't see why this is a thread about Taiko only though. It should apply to all modes.

We should address, more specifically, these two rules:

A mapset cannot have just one Taiko or osu!mania difficulty. If you decide, for example, to include Taiko in your map, make sure you have at least 2 Taiko mode difficulties and that one of them is of an easier difficulty level if it doesn't have an osu! standard Easy level difficulty. However having only one CtB difficulty is fine since
Mapsets must have at least two difficulties of the same game mode, one of which must be an Easy/Normal level. It is possible for Marathon difficulties to have only 1 difficulty, but it must be named Marathon for the BSS to allow the submission to pending.
First of all, the first quoted rule is obviously unfinished as it contains a sentence fragment, but this needs to be changed anyway. These two rules can actually be combined into one single rule.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Isn't the point that CtB is excluded from the latter rule since CtB conversion are by far the best regarding lower difficulties?
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

Loctav wrote:

Isn't the point that CtB is excluded from the latter rule since CtB conversion are by far the best regarding lower difficulties?
But that is just like saying "if the easy/normal converts nicely/just fine, you dont have to have a second difficulty." If this is the case, then why do we force two difficulties even if the lower difficulty is approved to be sufficient in taiko/mania? It's inconsistency that should be fixed one way or the other. We don't require an insane for maps - so using the reasoning of "well insanes dont convert well so we require it" isn't valid imo. As long as the spread is okay with taiko specific + easy/normal converted diffs, there shouldn't be a problem, just like with standard.
aabc271
osu! Alumni
1,334 posts
Joined August 2009
aabc271

Makar wrote:

But that is just like saying "if the easy/normal converts nicely/just fine, you dont have to have a second difficulty." If this is the case, then why do we force two difficulties even if the lower difficulty is approved to be sufficient? It's inconsistency that should be fixed one way or the other
Well, that's why I personally think the wordings can be misleading.

Ranking criteria wrote:

A mapset cannot have just one Taiko or osu!mania difficulty. If you decide, for example, to include Taiko in your map, make sure you have at least 2 Taiko mode difficulties and that one of them is of an easier difficulty level if it doesn't have an osu! standard Easy level difficulty.
The purple seems to be stating the only case that bans mapsets with only 1 taiko diff, which is contradictory to the blue part.
Sorry if I misunderstood this, but I think it could be the reason causing confusion to you guys ?
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
I had a talk with some guys and they said something similiar as Makar did.

@aabc:
Well, I think it is not just confusing. The rule has also some problems and sounds rather vague as we talked about before.
As I said, I talked to some guys, and there seems to be an agreement about one thing:

How to define what a 'proper'/good or Kantan/Futsuu worthly converted osu diff. is? How the staff is gonna judge this? The rule sounds vague when considering that conflicts between modders can appear. It could expand to problems where the mapper feels like his liberty is exploited. I agreed before that it needs some common sense, but in this case it is rather questionable if this helps.

The topic makes me worry. In the past it has been said that this rule was made to give beginner/novices the possibility to play Taiko on lower diffs, without considering Taiko Mappers opinion or how osu!mappers would react to this.
Now it is said that Taiko diffs. are effected by the easy diff requirement rule which I personally see as problem for the relationship between osu and Taiko mapper. Reasons are known.

Also I want to refere one more time to this post: p/2390077 which is dedicated to the lower diffs..

If the rule just remains because of the overall rule, then the overall rule should be probably changed in favor of the other modus'?
Because, maybe what we should do first is to consider if the rule nowadays is helpfull before we think about a rule change?

tl;dr Taiko-sets contain easy diffs. So maybe deleting the rule or have a change in the overall rule due to some said problems should be considered?
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

aabc271 wrote:

Makar wrote:

But that is just like saying "if the easy/normal converts nicely/just fine, you dont have to have a second difficulty." If this is the case, then why do we force two difficulties even if the lower difficulty is approved to be sufficient? It's inconsistency that should be fixed one way or the other
Well, that's why I personally think the wordings can be misleading.

Ranking criteria wrote:

A mapset cannot have just one Taiko or osu!mania difficulty. If you decide, for example, to include Taiko in your map, make sure you have at least 2 Taiko mode difficulties and that one of them is of an easier difficulty level if it doesn't have an osu! standard Easy level difficulty.
The purple seems to be stating the only case that bans mapsets with only 1 taiko diff, which is contradictory to the blue part.
Sorry if I misunderstood this, but I think it could be the reason causing confusion to you guys ?
Yes, but in the purple, "it" is referring to the easier difficulty requirement, not the 2 taiko diffs requirement. This is where the inconsistency is.

@Ono: What is and what isn't a good conversion/kantan is another topic, though. What should be discussed first are the spread rules, I think.
or maybe I am the one who is offtopic *runs*\

EDIT: Ono PM'd me, and I think some of what I talked about would be useful here:
SPOILER
14:28 OnosakiHito: My bad.
14:28 OnosakiHito: I ninjad you now.
14:28 OnosakiHito: lol
14:28 Makar: lol
14:28 Makar: edited post
14:29 OnosakiHito: Yep.
14:29 OnosakiHito: Mh, personally I really think deleting the rule would be the best solution.
14:30 Makar: there should be a general rule
14:30 Makar: that says there must be a easier difficulty
14:30 Makar: and thats it
14:30 Makar: no special shit like
14:30 Makar: "oh well if its ctb you dont need two"
14:30 Makar: "if its taiko you have to have two plus have a good converstion"
14:31 Makar: too much shit
14:31 Makar: make it general and simple
14:31 Makar: imo
14:31 OnosakiHito: Either that or we don't need this for guest difficulties. Because really,
14:31 OnosakiHito: I see no need for this. Especially in later times.
14:31 Makar: no need for easier diffs...?
14:31 OnosakiHito: Yes.
14:31 Makar: lol
14:32 Makar: we should stop speaking now
14:32 Makar: staff has explained over 9000 times why easier diffs will always be a requirement
14:33 Makar: and I completely agree with it
14:33 Makar: people need a better way to learn
14:34 Makar: when it wasnt a requirement for taiko, barely anybody would try to learn to play
14:34 Makar: a public poll even suggested this
14:35 OnosakiHito: Well, as I said some time before. I agreed to this as well. But at that time specific sets were not allowed. And the topic was just about Taiko.
14:35 Makar: http://puu.sh/3rZGL.png
14:35 Makar: so you are only referring to sets with both standard and taiko?
14:35 OnosakiHito: now we have ctb, mania and Taiko. So these three mods would interfere to each other.
14:35 OnosakiHito: Because of this rule.
14:36 Makar: if we were to not enforce an easier difficulty
14:36 Makar: even if the conversion is unplayable
14:36 OnosakiHito: To the picture: As I said, I agreed at this time as well. But now we have Taiko-sets.
14:36 Makar: then that would cause chaos
14:36 Makar: in the standard side
14:36 Makar: trust me
14:37 OnosakiHito: Oh?
14:37 OnosakiHito: Do you mind to explain me?
14:37 Makar: it will be hard since you havent participated in some of the discussions for standard before, but I can try
14:37 Makar: basically
14:37 Makar: there are a few people
14:37 OnosakiHito: thanks.
14:37 Makar: that say easy diffs shouldnt be requireed at all
14:37 Makar: and say any map can get ranked without a easy diff
14:38 Makar: one of our objective arguements against this is giving an example
14:38 Makar: an example of a new guy coming to the game
14:38 Makar: finding a song
14:38 Makar: wanting to play their favorite song
14:38 Makar: but then finding out that there is not a difficulty for them to be able to play
14:38 Makar: on this song
14:38 Makar: if we were to allow a standard/taiko set to be ranked with a bad conversion or no easy
14:39 Makar: it is essentially the same thing, hypocritical, and the standard people would go apeshit on it
14:40 OnosakiHito: "One for all, all for one", "rules need to applie for all mods, so it is fair"?
14:40 Makar: yes
14:40 OnosakiHito: Mhm. These are valid points. Indeed.
14:40 Makar: and I 100% agree with the all-modes-should-be-equal idea
14:41 Makar: in terms of general rulesl such as spread
14:41 Makar: MMzz made a proposal
14:42 Makar: that I dont really like, but it would definitely fix the problem
14:42 Makar: and that is to disallow these types of sets
14:42 Makar: and only allow mode-specific ones
14:43 OnosakiHito: The first argument is rather vague to me. It is true that lower players wouldn't be able to play in this way their favorite map. But should we also see if of another site: E.g. Taiko takes place in a set, so osumania can't be added. The other community suffer. If there would be 1x taiko and 1x osu, both communitys would have a diff..
14:43 OnosakiHito: But he secon argument... well.
14:43 OnosakiHito: I have to agree to this.
14:43 Makar: what I think is that
14:43 Makar: before we change anything to one specific mode
14:44 Makar: we should make the modes equal in a general sense
14:44 Makar: and then change that general rule isntead
14:44 OnosakiHito: Indeed.
14:45 OnosakiHito: To be honest Makar, I think you should add this into the post.
14:45 Makar: this chat?
14:45 OnosakiHito: This chat, or rather the informations. Without these informations,
14:45 OnosakiHito: I would probably keep arguing there.
14:45 Makar: lmao
14:45 Makar: hmm
14:45 OnosakiHito: The others don't seem to be aware of it as well,
14:45 OnosakiHito: else Sakura wouldn't make this thread
14:46 OnosakiHito: or people like Loctav or aabc discuss as well.
14:46 Makar: I can include the chat
it's not too long, I think :p
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
If we had a sort of checklist that outlines what can and can't be present in the easy difficulty to apply as a taiko conversion, it would be easier to enforce.

A [b:00526]bad[/b:00526] kantan conversion is one that...

1) Never varies between don/kat
2) favors sliders over notes
3) Is obviously too difficult to be played by someone who is just starting out in taiko.

If any of the things on the above 'checklist' are found, they either need to map a kantan or change the easy to match. A mapper would be able to contact a BAT about if their easy counts as a kantan, or a BAT would check for them before issuing a bubble/rank.

I do agree that the requirements are made clearer...

"A mapset cannot include only one Taiko or osu!mania difficulty. If you decide to include either of these modes, make sure you have 2 difficulties from that mode, and an additional easy ('Kantan' in taiko) difficulty unless your standard easy difficulty is recognized as a sufficient conversion by a BAT."

We can include the checklist/guidelines to a sufficient conversion underneath the rule in a spoiler to avoid any confusion.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
it is written how it says in aabc post, what is supposed to say (and what we're going by):

-> 2 diffs minimum per game mode (only exception is Marathons)
-> 1 diff should be of an easy/normal level, since Standard can be played on multiple modes, Standards do count as said Easy level for other modes only IF the other modes translate well from Standard, this isn't an issue for CtB as an standard easy is always easy enough for CtB.
-> There should be a spread on all game modes, and if an easy wasn't made than at least a Hard (obviously doesn't apply for standard).

So i'd love if someone edited the RC to something of this effect, then we can discuss whether it needs to change or not and start from there.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
The changes Makar posted were apparantly added. I can heart this then.
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