context for the first timestamp is Evening's map that inspired this one https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1670397#mania/3411675
I'll be fixing both timestamps though (the second one is a result of a minor inconsistency as well)
I do think it makes it better but on top of that I would also repattern the following burst to have 00:59:976 (59976|0) - on the right hand as well
The reasoning is that (timestamp after mirroring what you selected) 00:59:482 (59482|1,59606|1,59698|1,59698|0,59791|0,59853|1,59976|0) - is still very tough, but if you give the 3/6 space, equivalent to half a beat between 00:59:853 (59853|1,60038|2), to let the player regain balance on that hand then it should no longer be a chokepoint
and 03:11:643 (191643|1,191735|2,191828|0,191828|1,191828|3,191921|2) - and 03:13:124 (193124|1,193217|2,193309|3,193309|0,193309|1,193402|2) - I think you're better off just making the second timestamp easier for consistency lol
The point is that I think the truthfulness of it "being intuitively understandable" is very questionable. Besides that, I also think that judging a map by intuition is a very flimsy idea considering we ideally wouldn't like to hold maps that try to get ranked to differing standards if we want to keep claiming that everyone has an equal chance.
And nominating based on intuition, well. My only comment would be that 4k has a wacky future ahead, and I'm glad to be receding from it.
Mapping and a map's quality will never be an objective thing, but subjectivity is not measurable. The safest approach to me is to aspire towards the unattainable objectivity - because otherwise it's like asking someone for a shade of gray, and they give you #010101
Finally, addressing the last post - Do mind that I don't go far in detail with initial waves of mods unless I'm specifically asked to mod the map. My process is basically to play the map and pin down any weird looking things, then look at them in the editor to make sure, and finally post mods (side note this is why for instace Akasha found so much more than me in Xeroa).
I firmly believe that the best ideas are those which are not only effective but also easily grasped by players who don't necessarily look into the editor, and this is how I mod too. And I wouldn't in a million years have guessed the justification for these ideas through gameplay alone, and for some I even struggle to understand them after a lengthy discussion.
As it comes to transitioning into 01:21:110 (81110|3,81133|2,81224|1,81286|0) again, because the words slur together, is it even really desirable to make these sounds stand apart visually THAT much? Considering the tiny details in the map like a ridiculous snap release difference to highlight a quaver or whatnot, this and a couple other stuff like that (I think there are some don't quote me on that though it's 3am) feels like a massive missed opportunity, even more that it's the first beat so additional emphasis like this should by all means be desired right? Even then there are definitely techniques to achieve a level of soft contrast, like finishing a stagger early on the right hand and holding it long on the first column just to name one
"secondly, tying in with the previous message, having a heavier chord on the first beat..." yeah yeah don't worry about it I'm not questioning the usage of the chord there, but the LN lengths more specifically, it just looked like a genuine mistake while playing this map so I had to take a closer look at it - because again as said previously the LN pattern lengths (including releases) are in line with the length of the vocal notes besides this H pattern (and the aforementioned can of worms)
As it comes to 01:21:063 "dropping out earlier" this is actually something I consider weird now that I better understand the concept - the vocal audibly and heavily slurs words together here, and it's not really shown visually at all
"a lot of the LNs that seem extended enough are not like 01:13:610 (73610|2)" I don't see how it's not? I know lower playbacks on osu aren't great but as far as I could tell this ends roughly when the sound ends? 01:22:610 is just generally bizarre mapping to me so I personally just didn't count it whilst checking if all the vocal notes are in line with the LN pattern lengths. Might be a me issue, but I really fear opening the can of worms of this pattern further than I already have honestly, especially given responses like https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1335568/discussion/2766889/general#/3548518/9538957 lmao
found it very weird to be hitting several times more notes at around 00:30:310 which has a minor percussion difference and that's basically it
can't resolve this btw thanks osu
I'm kinda getting contradictory signals as to whether we like changing similar patterns slightly to represent minor changes in vocal (https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1335568/discussion/2766889/timeline#/3548457/9549383) or not (https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1335568/discussion/2766889/timeline#/3548491/9549411)
but I see the point now alright
Does an inconsistency being kinesthetically unimpactful make it not an inconsistency?
Again I simply don't see the reason for why an error that would be sought after to be fixed in nearly any other map is to be ignored here.
I asked where the rise and fall in the vocals is, since that was the argument for LNs suddenly turning into rice notes in the timestamps above. Genuinely I can't hear any variation in that vocal note at all until it changes around 01:10:610 (70610|1). This is as stable a vocal note as a human could make it to me, so I simply don't hear where the supposed "rise and fall" is. I see rice notes starting to be placed hundreds of miliseconds before the vocalist starts shifting their voice to a lower note.
and also no it's not clear that it's not inconsistent, not at all. There are many differences in the map between different syllables / vocal notes, but besides the timestamped ones, all follow the length of the notes they are representing pretty accurately. Rhythmically there isn't much to say either, the rhythm in the chorus is very simple, and while there are are a couple of notes that don't fall directly on beat (white line) the H patterns aren't those. So nope, it's not clear in the slightest.
I would say then that it's super misleading that all LN patterns besides those H ones in the chorus are in fact extended roughly to the full length of the vocal notes they were representing. This is pretty much why I raised the issue in the first place - obviously it looks like a mistake when you're following an idea consistently but do not apply it in just one instance, and even now knowing it all I still find it very hard to not think so. Because even if a scheme has been followed by accident, what do these intentions alone matter to a player in the end product?
Besides those two cents on the matter, I'd like to know what you consider that "flow" to be before resolving (example perhaps? it's unclear) and why lengthening LNs would be bad.
The commonplace approach to scaling does have reasons to be commonplace, and there are reasons why failing to adhere to it is pointed out as a genuine error and sought after to be fixed in nearly all maps.
It worries me that throughout your whole essay you neglected to mention why you decided to undermine it in the first place, and - even more importantly - what you replaced it with.
again, the H patterns are the bigger issue to me
I sort of see the reasoning behind the funny 14-14-23-23 patterns in the first timestamps even if I do kinda dislike how it was approached but that's not a subject for mod
To me personally these are all about the same intensity? The vocalist sounds like they're singing the same line with about the same strength.
But besides that, I don't think intensity is the key factor for determining whether we like consistency now or not - after all we have the same figure at 02:31:305 (151305|0,151365|3,151426|1,151487|2,151547|0,151610|3,151672|1,151732|2,151793|0,151854|3,151916|1,151977|2,152038|0) and 02:19:303 (139303|3,139365|0,139426|2,139487|1,139547|3,139610|0,139672|2,139732|1,139793|3,139854|0,139916|2,139977|1,140038|3) - that of course besides how selective, to use a euphemism, the usage of consistency is in the map in general...
Hi Decku could you real quick explain how your response relates to the original post? You're mentioning a single section, emphasizing parts that do not have the vocal, etc - I don't see any of what you're talking about in the timestamps I linked and the issue I had. Did you perhaps mean to respond to a different modpost, or am I just blind to something :(
As it comes to #2811087, again, I would kindly ask for a longer discussion regarding its validity in the first place as a key to all locks regarding mods, criticisms, imperfections. Ideas you're basing your chart upon are great to know, but I heavily disagree that they should invalidate any criticism that would otherwise be taken seriously in any other map.
Can you lead me real quick to where the note you linked refers to representing the same sounds inconsistently
That besides the fact that I would appreciate a longer discussion on the whole idea, cause tell me how should I interpret the idea of a vocal dump if it doesn't consistently represent the vocals, and how should other mappers interpret the idea of writing "it's not supposed to be consistent" to magically make it real
There's a reason why consistency is so important it's pointed out as an error in virtually every map - because consistency is the hallmark of human intent, besides its irreplaceable strength in linking various ideas together
clarification, I claimed the verse is too frantic compared to the chorus which is much more intense and emotional in the song but way easier in the map -
I think I roughly get what you mean by the wall of sound, but I don't really get why the latter two timestamps are just a short H pattern mapped for a longer vocal line, especially considering the wall of sound approach
no but hold on where is the rise and fall in the vocal, if it were there at all I would understand why the LNs get turned into notes cause it would be anchored in the song in some way or the other - my point specifically is that the line the vocalist is singing does not change one bit throughout both the LNs and the notes I timestamped
So you... contradicted your own schema for music representation because you thought you were running out of patterns? Or am I understanding it wrong
Cause I think there's still several you haven't used like [24]13 (lns on 213) for instance
As it comes to being kinesthetically impactful it obviously isn't because the verse is 5x harder than everything else as I mentioned in the general post, but I will say the difference is still felt because this is the only instance of this 2-1-1 1/7 burst where there's a onehanded trill motion, and it couples with the splittrill transition like so 01:23:922 (83922|3,84016|2,84110|3,84163|2,84217|3) - it creates a 5-note onehanded trill which is a one-of-a-kind pattern in the map afaik
I think I understand what you're mentioning, but I don't think I understand what the reasoning is behind the two first timestamps being different, could you please clarify a bit?
li2: negative impact of your maps on children (just petty, toxic)
li3: if maps like these get ranked people will think they can rank inconsistent maps (I sort of agree. I think it IS harmful to disregard consistency in some places, and grill other maps for it, it is fundamentally a double standard to me, and I dislike the idea of just saying out loud "I don't care about consistency in this map!" to free yourself of all responsibility for errors)
I would definitely appreciate if you could make the points you wrote now a bit clearer.
But besides that, let me summarise your original response, and say if you disagree with said summarization at any point:
(my thoughts are going to be in parentheses like that)
p1: you say it may be fixable (no additional info, is it done? do I resolve?), and then go on for 2 more lines saying how the mod was made in bad faith (saw an error and pointed it out, there's really nothing else to it)
list start: (don't know what you mean by dance and I'm a bit intimidated)
list item 1: (I don't really understand what you said here)
this is just a mod my guy what are you on about
I don't even know what you mean by "my history" I have no history with this map whatsoever.
And if you mean a history with you that's irrelevant as Protastic said, it's almost insulting to assume I or anyone else would be so childish to "mod cause I dislike the mapper" (besides how ridiculous that sounds, mods literally exist to make the map better)
Genuinely I have no clue why you consistently have issues responding to mods like basically everyone else
I don't think this was redone? I was about to post this exact criticism, this is a vocal dump map so the difference of vocal vs no vocal should be a major one by all means