So, are BNs exempt from this according to what you said at first? They have veto powers too. My veto on this is from me as a BN, and not as a NAT. In addition -- where am I not trying to understand your perception here? I wouldn't be writing dissertations explaining my own points of view and arguing with you if I wasn't trying to understand what's going on.
it's not my perception you have to understand, but the mapper's. it doesnt matter whether you are doing something as NAT or BN, i was just reading the red tag by your name. i was just talking about anyone who had veto power.
These aren't comparable.
there is NOTHING in the music to support odd rhythm groupings in taitou no suika or basara, yet you are trying to argue that there is. that's nothing against those maps, in fact that's part of why i love those maps so much. but to try and suggest that those groupings are implied by the music is utter insanity to me--or you are just fabricating completely tendentious arguments to support your own position. either way there is no point talking about the mapping particulars anymore.
See, you're trying to say that you don't want to be rude or an asshole, and yet you're doing this.
do what? i'm just reporting what literally happened. i have nothing against you, in fact i downloaded the map expecting to support your decision, but one play is all it took to change my mind. i specify "one play" to drive home the fact that i am not digging deep to find some arcane reason to discredit your veto. sorry to use the phrase again, but this is indeed completely surface-level.
why am i being so rude? because i am genuinely aghast at the type of stuff you dont seem to be grasping. usually when it comes to these controversial vetoes (or just controversial ranks, like uncanny long arms), i like to just leave a short comment in support of the mapper, showing that i love the map. i can see why uncanny long arms might be too extreme for some to stomach. in fact, i can even see why this map would be too much to stomach at first glance. but the way you specifically have spoken about this map is just mindboggling to me. okay even if you dont think the triangles are immediately intuitive like i do... bro you said fuwa fuwari was five syllables...come on man...and that's what you're vetoing on? what am i supposed to think at that point
By saying that I'm "clinging onto a narrow view of what is musically possible" despite this, you're just coming across as a douchebag to me.
look i dont think youre dumb or anything. i honestly dont know that much about you as a mapping understander. i like seeing your comments on omdb, i know you used to map jump maps or whatever but that was a long time ago. but everytime i say something rude it's me trying to convey exactly how easy it should be to at least see, if not entirely agree, where usaha is coming from with some of these patterns, and how strange it is to see you as an NAT/BN be unable to do so, at least in this specific case. that's all. at this point i'm no longer interested in discussing the map itself, or some of your other points ive left unaddressed, i'm just trying to wrap things up by communicating my feelings to you and the reasons behind my tone.
If the mapper really wanted to stick with triangles here, why not just do
because that's not the same lmao that's grouped in 4s now. but you ask the right question now. the answer is that unusual groupings is a very old and somewhat common technique, it should not be controversial at all. obviously if a beginner mapper is spamming rhythms without paying attention to the music then that's a different thing, but the way it's used here is so contained and so specific that it's clearly intended. if you want an old example of odd rhythmic groupings you can look at 01:02:176 (1) - from 100pa-'s basara. if you want a newer example you can look at this entire section 05:18:662 (1) - from fanzhen's taitou no suika, which you nominated. and these examples are even less "justified" than in this map
The brass instruments do play new melodies here, but 00:23:906 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2) - it's the same rhythm and pitch used for this (and less loud), so why incorporate such a drastic shift in what you're following between sections?
because a song can support different interpretations of it. as i said, a map can reveal different aspects of a song. static jumps may not provide the correct feeling because while the vocal note is held, the song is still moving, as i said, building TOWARDS something. that trumpet is now in an ENTIRELY different context. it's the end of the kiai, there's vocal on top of it, instrumentation is thicker than in the rest of the song. this all contributes to the overall intensity which is reflected by the jumps.
...thanks for the passive-aggressiveness and holier-than-thou attitude, I guess?
I'm gonna be fully honest, it feels like you're trying to deeply analyze what's going on in this map when I very much doubt the mapper had any intention of actually being deeply thoughtful with what he was doing for each and every single note.
that was me being nice, because this is really obvious stuff. other people can miss it, but you're an NAT. if you're going to veto based on musical expression, you should at least know about musical expression. the fact is that i'm not deeply analyzing anything. i'm shallowly analyzing it, because this is all surface level, maybe even subconscious on the part of the mapper. it's because it's so obvious that i have to use many words to explain it. yes that's condescending but that's literally what it is, i'm not exaggerating to make myself look good, it's actually just basic. a map is a reflection of how the mapper understands the music. you've been a mapper for many years now, i hope you've been spending that time looking at others' maps and trying to understand their perspectives and broaden your horizons instead of clinging onto your own narrow view of what is musically possible. that's the great thing about mapping, is you get to experience someone else's perspective. sometimes there is no perspective, sometimes they really do just want to map jump bullshit without regard for the music, and thats a good time to veto. but you should be able to tell when that's happening and when it isn't, and it's not happening here. sorry for being rude, genuinely, but if i acted polite like this wasn't all obvious, i would just be lying
agree with melloe. execution is meh in some places but this is definitely not as egregious as you would think from the reaction, there have been infinitely worse maps ranked in the past 3 months - this map is not even close to "aim slop" or "objectively bad" or "this shouldn't even be a discussion", i would even say that some of the choices this map makes are cool
"objects land on nothing": i really don't think improvised/additive rhythms are such a foreign concept, it's been a thing since at least 2010.. can be improved and worked into the map with awesomer hitsounds
fuwa fuwari is 5 syllables, but the "ri" lasts for the length of two syllables, until the melody repeats. six total. three white ticks instead of the usual 4. i dont want to be rude but idk why i even have to explain this. its rhythmically unusual, so he does something similarly playful, which is to take something that usually comes in 4s and rhythmically group them in 3s. triangles also come in 3s. then the song--and the map--returns to 4 00:44:906 (1,2,3,4) - . this should be obvious, i dont know if you genuinely cant see it or youre just coming up with random reasoning to defend your position
as for the back-and-forths, the tension is definitely not decreasing in intensity. not objectively, at least; if you mapped it as decreasing in intensity the song would probably support that too. but it supports an increase of intensity also, because halfway through the jumps the singer holds the "no" syllable for a pretty long time--and a held note often increases intensity--and also because the trumpet starts blaring out a NEW melody at exactly the same spot. the "no" syllable and the trumpet end also at exactly the same spot, which is where the jumps end too: 01:12:906 (1) - . the pattern AND song are also clearly building up TO something, which is this dismount 01:12:906 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - . expression through contrast.
from a difficulty design perspective, i can agree the back-and-forths may be overtuned. but if you vetoed this due to song representation, then yes: there is something i'm seeing that you're not. this isnt a meaningless jump practice map that ignores the music to spam jumps for no reason. you couldnt understand the patterns and vetoed the map, okay, you were just doing your job, its an important job. everyone misses something once in a while, me included. but now i'm telling you, this map is absolutely 100% not that kind of map. maybe the mapper secretly intended to make some limit testing jumpspam bullshit, i dont know. but even if thats the case their experience/"skill" was enough to ensure that the map still interacts with the music in a relatively fun, interesting way.
the whole point of this is that its overmapped and "overemphasised" (whatever that means lol), and with the way mapping has trended exceedingly liberal in the past 7 years its quite funny to hear something like "..does not warrant a map of this caliber." it really just sounds like your saying "i dont like this and i dont want it ranked" without any true reason given. maps themselves are already a creative medium. when i see comments like #4826279 i see them as simply just missing the point of what maps should be, a culmination of a mapper's interpretation and the experience their wanting to create.
trying to argue if something is overdone or not is a waste time to me, this has always sounded like a fast and upbeat song which is why i and also countless others have mapped this as pretty 1/4 heavy; with this just being an extension of that i dont think its the rhythm choice you have a problem with
so lets talk about these examples then where apparently there is no logic at all even though its all simple mapping concepts everyone who ever maps anime higher than 6 stars should know
00:12:906 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - 1->4 are the same vertical movement for the kick drums and held sound, and when it lets go on 4 it changes into circular flow instead. you could argue that 4 should be either a slider or a rhythm gap to emphasize it but rather than trying to emphasize through rhythm its being emphasized through the change in movement within the pattern. this is also pretty important since the sound on 7 is lower pitch than the previous two which is why i solely made this into a slider in the first place
00:18:906 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - is just retaining the same flow up until the instruments comes back in on 7 which causes a movement change
- I think its good as is
- ok
- spacing is already huge, will leave for now
- goodbye giga spacing :(
- not sure what u mean, the song is identical both times so i use same movement just in opposite direction so it's
not copy paste and spacing is also gunga so leaving for now
- nah