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Romanization of Cyrillic

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Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Wafu
There actually are rules about how should some Asian languages be romanized. However Cyrillic has a really huge count of types of romanization and each is used for different country, so there are quite issues with this.

Because this one doesn't use any special characters, is pretty easy to use and is similar to Modified Hepburn romanization which we use for Japanese and also similar to the romanization we use for Chinese, I think it is better to use this to avoid more confusion and inconsistencies:

Cyrillic metadata must be romanized according to this system. This can be ignored if artist provided official romanization.

ë in Russian should be romanized regarding to this:
  1. (ж/ч/ш/щ) + ё = o
  2. (everything else) + ё = yo
If Cyrillic is used to express the pronunciation of a foreign word, use its original spelling:
  1. Гудбай → Gudbay ✗
  2. Гудбай → Goodbye ✓
For simplification, I coded a little program for used Cyrillic languages. You might get it there. I am willing to make changes if more exceptions are found or if another Cyrillic language song is mapped - Then I'd add add that language's option.
Last edited by Wafu , edited 9 times in total.
Kert
2,079 posts
Joined June 2009
Kert
yo = ё
h = х
c = ц
That's for russian
:)
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Wafu

Kert wrote:

yo = ё
h = х
c = ц
That's for russian
:)
I'd agree, but that's quite older romanization and is less similar to Modified Hepburn which we use for Japanese.
//Oh, yeah, ё should be o or yo, I wrote the same for e and ё. Sorry, I'll fix it soon xD
//Fixed the table, ё is now o or yo how it should be. ц and х was kept to keep it similar Japanese romanization we have to use, to keep it consistent with romanization style of the rest (c and h are used in more complicated romanization) because 'c' and 'h' are less defined in many languages. Some romanizations for example romanize ё to ё, which is quite unknown for many people, but this is mostly international.
TicClick
Global Moderator
4,416 posts
Joined February 2011
TicClick
Where did you get that table from? ё is nothing like o, й should be j and ь should translate to '. I would suggest using somewhat official GOST 7.79-2000 (with grave accent ("backtick") replaced with apostrophe) instead, which is basically modified ISO 9. It also sounds and looks more natural to natives.
Kurai
osu! Alumni
7,734 posts
Joined March 2009
Kurai

TicClick wrote:

Where did you get that table from? ё is nothing like o, й should be j and ь should translate to '. I would suggest using somewhat official GOST 7.79-2000 (with grave accent ("backtick") replaced with apostrophe) instead, which is basically modified ISO 9. It also sounds and looks more natural to natives.
As a foreigner studying Russian, I am more used to the BGN/PCGN (Russian - Ukrainian) romanisation system (and the French system too, but let's not talk about this one haha). I have never seen any text being romanised using GOST and having х getting romanised to x instead of kh or щ to shh instead of shch looks kind of awkward to me. Especially when you have some maps already using the BNG/PCNG one.

Also, many other languages use Cyrillic, so I would personally ask people to refer to this when they want to romanise their song titles from cyrillic to the roman alphabet (who knows, maybe we'll have some more amazing Bulgarian music in the future! please no more Azis, I beg you).
TicClick
Global Moderator
4,416 posts
Joined February 2011
TicClick
Whoops, missed kh and shch, although I was gonna mention that. Yeah, it's quite a flaw, х being romanized to x is dumb, and BGN/PCGN looks even more acceptable (ё → yo is probably the only clarification it needs). As for GOST, it's mostly used in official pages when people take a random decision that they should go "by the rules".

But still, й = y?..
Last edited by TicClick , edited 1 time in total.
Kurai
osu! Alumni
7,734 posts
Joined March 2009
Kurai
ё → yo makes sense. It makes me think of the romanisation of "Михаил Горбачёв" to "Mikhail Gorbachev" instead of "Mikhail Gorbachov". Everyone pronouces Горбачёв the wrong way (at least in France) because of this.

As for й → y, I'm quite used to seeing this in texts as "й" sounds more like "y" than "j" in most (non-slavic) languages making it more readable for foreign people who can't read cyrillic. Though my teachers told me that both "y" and "j" are acceptable transcriptions.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Wafu
@Kurai: This is BGN/PCGN, but ё is the undefined sound, because it is different in every language + it's unicode, so it cannot be used. However, from Russian it is pronounced o or yo. BGN/PCGN is old, but the most reliable system, because it reflects the real pronunciation we are used to. ё is often used as o or yo (even in BGN/PCGN, but it has not been updated), because it is not 'special sign' + the pronunciation is more defined.

@TicClick й = y - Yeah. j is also acceptable, but is not international, because most countries read J as 'dzh'. It is also the same in hepburn - yu in Japanese reads the same as йу in Russian, so there really is a lot of similarity.

I would really, as Kurai said stick to https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... sation.pdf
There is even explained when yë (respectively, because it is more defined - yo) is used and when only ë (respectively o for the same reason) is used.
Krfawy
1,374 posts
Joined March 2012
Krfawy
Question time, can I write Polish pronounciation in the tags? You know, for example we have 'Катя Миронова' so I'd translate it as "Katya Mironova // Katia Mironova // Katiya Mironava" and so on, but could I put "Katja Mironowa" to the tags?

EDIT: How about 'й' as 'yee'?
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Wafu

Krfawy wrote:

Question time, can I write Polish pronounciation in the tags? You know, for example we have 'Катя Миронова' so I'd translate it as "Katya Mironova // Katia Mironova // Katiya Mironava" and so on, but could I put "Katja Mironowa" to the tags?

EDIT: How about 'й' as 'yee'?
Tags are used for searching, thus you are obviously allowed to use additional romanizations in tags.

й as yee would be maybe too complicated because it mixes more ways of pronunciation. If you compare to Japanese Hepburn, y and y in this romanization is the same, so people are used to this. If 'ee' is taken from english, most people would read this as 'ji' (in Polish pronunciation obviously, I am talking to Krfawy :)), but in real you read й as 'j' only (again in Polish), but that's only for some languages, it's not very international so it cannot be used, so referring to the table Kurai sent would be probably the best apart from ë.
Krfawy
1,374 posts
Joined March 2012
Krfawy
To be honest as a Pole I can't find any difference between 'j' and 'ji' since they sound the same so that's why I was asking about 'yee'. :D
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Wafu

Krfawy wrote:

To be honest as a Pole I can't find any difference between 'j' and 'ji' since they sound the same so that's why I was asking about 'yee'. :D
Oh... yeah, I see it now, so it could even be just 'y' :D
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Wafu
Updated the decrtiption a bit.
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg

TicClick wrote:

I would suggest using somewhat official GOST 7.79-2000 (with grave accent ("backtick") replaced with apostrophe) instead, which is basically modified ISO 9. It also sounds and looks more natural to natives.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Wafu

Sieg wrote:

TicClick wrote:

I would suggest using somewhat official GOST 7.79-2000 (with grave accent ("backtick") replaced with apostrophe) instead, which is basically modified ISO 9. It also sounds and looks more natural to natives.
I'd say BGN/PCGN would cover all Cyrillic languages, thus using GOST would then make it inconsistent, I suppose.

Also let's be honest:
й - j (j is read like this mostly in Slavic languages, most of others would read j as дж)
х = x (undefined in most languages, will be confused with 'ecs' from other languages)
ц = cz, c (will be confused with 'ch', for example in Polish, and also many international words read cz as 'ch')
щ = shh (most people will read it the same way as ш, because they get confused when seeing 2x h in a row, they'll probably tend to say it longer or something, but they definitely won't know there is 'ch' on the end of the sound, so 'shch' from BGN/PCGN defines it more)
Usage of ` and ' is also not very good there.
For comparsion, I romanised в полете с крыши дома мы выпьем весь блейзер в мире in both transliteration types.
GOST
BGN/PCGN
I'd say it would be the best choice, because it is easier to read, doesn't need many changes and looks aesthetically better than GOST.
cr1mmy
194 posts
Joined April 2011
cr1mmy
fcuk you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo_(Cyrillic )
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%81
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Wafu

cr1m wrote:

fcuk you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo_(Cyrillic )
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%81
I already sent this link to the map because of which this started, anyway no offense is needed.
Kobold84
Global Moderator
1,201 posts
Joined September 2013
Kobold84
So I think that Ё = yo in every (not sure, but anyway) case except when this letter goes after Ж, Ч, Ш and Щ, then it's o.
For example "подошёл" — "podoshol", "чёрный" — "chorniy" (or "chornyy"?)
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Topic Starter
Wafu

Kobold84 wrote:

So I think that Ё = yo in every (not sure, but anyway) case except when this letter goes after Ж, Ч, Ш and Щ, then it's o.
For example "подошёл" — "podoshol", "чёрный" — "chorniy" (or "chornyy"?)
The system itself explained that: "The character should be romanized yë initially, after the vowel characters a, e, ё, и, о, у, ы, э, ю, and я, and after й, ъ, and ь. In all other instances,it should be romanized ё."
But we'd just replace ë with o.

чёрный would be chornyy if you asked.

Also when official romanization was recommended, I hope you did not forget that it must be international - which is another reason why not GOST.
TicClick
Global Moderator
4,416 posts
Joined February 2011
TicClick

Wafu wrote:

Kobold84 wrote:

So I think that Ё = yo in every (not sure, but anyway) case except when this letter goes after Ж, Ч, Ш and Щ, then it's o.
For example "подошёл" — "podoshol", "чёрный" — "chorniy" (or "chornyy"?)
The system itself explained that: "The character should be romanized yë initially, after the vowel characters a, e, ё, и, о, у, ы, э, ю, and я, and after й, ъ, and ь. In all other instances,it should be romanized ё."
While I accept the system Kurai proposed, I am afraid the above explanation is still unsatisfactory; for ё after (Ж, Ш, Ч, Щ), o is correct, because these consonants are always either soft or hard, and syllables жё, шё, чё and щё sound like they really do have o. But it's false for the rest of consonants: до doesn't equal дё, бо is different from бё, et cetera, et cetera.

In short:
  1. ё + ж/ч/ш/щ = o
  2. ё + everything else = yo
For loan words, their romanization should obviously be taken from the original language.
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