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[Video Tutorial] Advanced Timing

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Topic Starter
Charles445
I've been getting a lot of in-game and forum PMs recently asking for timing help.
My inbox is starting to fill with stuff like this.



I can't time them all, so this tutorial is going to cover how I handle timing on beatmaps.

In order to time a beatmap, one must first figure out what sort of timing the map calls for. This can be Single, Multiple, or Variable.

Below are Youtube videos detailing each.


Single BPM

Using two sections to get the best BPM setting possible.



If my ramblings didn't make any sense, here's a text explanation of the Advanced Single BPM Tutorial.

You want to create two red timing sections near the beginning of the song and near the end of the song.
Don't worry about their BPM just yet, what's most important is to make sure their offsets are on existing beats, so when the metronome passes over the red timing sections it makes a click on time with the song.

Once both timing sections are placed on beats within the song, you can then go back to the very first timing section and mess with the BPM of it.
The main idea is that if the BPM of the first section is correct, when the song reaches the second timing section, the next beat will be exactly where the second red timing section is.

Huh that sounds confusing
Let me try an example

Let's say the first timing section has an offset of 0, and the second timing section has an offset of, oh, 100000
The first section has a BPM that sounds right but slowly goes horribly wrong by the end of the song.
If we delete the second timing section and try to scroll to that same place (100000) using the first section, it might be in the wrong place, like 100200.
That means the timing is getting 200 ms off! (wow). This means we should change the BPM of the first timing section till that beat is at 100000 ms at that very part.
Multiple BPM

Detecting and fixing BPM changes.




Variable BPM

Taking it slowly and fixing as you move forward.




If you have any other questions about timing, please post them here and I will answer as many as possible.
Sync
very well thought out and practical techniques.

stickied
Nyquill
Sync admin abused
Love
Charles I love you.
Distant years
thank you so much for this!
_dog
Very well done tutorials. <3 Charles
Faust
\:D/
lolcubes
Interesting, I do these differently haha.
But yeah I am not sure if listening to metronome ticks is always the best idea, for me they are always off ;_; (4~7ms too early). Still good enough to get the basic timing done though.
Topic Starter
Charles445

lolcubes wrote:

But yeah I am not sure if listening to metronome ticks is always the best idea, for me they are always off ;_; (4~7ms too early).
They ARE off, that's why you listen to them multiple times and try to get a higher framerate :D
If it sounds early, accurate, and late at the same time, chances are it's properly timed.
[CSGA]Ar3sgice
☆⌒(*ˆ-゜)v
lolcubes
I mean in general. Everytime I get ~5ms early on the metronome, it's just about perfect normally. ;)
I use default normal hitsounds and circles on several key spots on the map though, after finding the basic bpm through tapping (I seem to get the BPM right with tapping though hehe).
Faust

lolcubes wrote:

I mean in general. Everytime I get ~5ms early on the metronome, it's just about perfect normally. ;)
I use default normal hitsounds and circles on several key spots on the map though, after finding the basic bpm through tapping (I seem to get the BPM right with tapping though hehe).
Usually how I do things as well, rarely do I deviate from this method.

Sometimes I just have denominators included in the BPM eg. 164.25 to test waters.
BeatofIke
Very awesome! That's a clever way to find the BPM and offset! :D
Gonzvlo
I time stuff in a different way but I'll try these techniques the next time. Thanks Charles, awesome!

my ears D:

EDIT: Forgot to mention, this should be translated into other languages. (with Charles permission, of course)
jonathanlfj
wow this tutorial is amazing :)
its sad how i learned more about using shortcuts in the editor than the actual timing techniques in the video
Tari
Awesome, :D

-Needs to try this when I time my next map-
Topic Starter
Charles445

Gonzvlo wrote:

EDIT: Forgot to mention, this should be translated into other languages. (with Charles permission, of course)
That'd be great!
Sakura
Actually it'd be better if it was on the wiki, it's easier to handle different languages there.

Also you could add subtitles (i think youtube allows that?) even english CC for people that arent good at listening to english but can understand by reading.
Zexous
Variable BPMs
Kill me
Deni

Charles445 wrote:

Gonzvlo wrote:

EDIT: Forgot to mention, this should be translated into other languages. (with Charles permission, of course)
That'd be great!
I am willing to translate the videos into german! (by adding subtitles) ;)

Just tell me where I should upload them.. I thought you want to create an extra Youtube Channel for the tutorials?


Has been settled..
UnitedWeSin
Charles too pro. (:
Shohei Ohtani
Timing at a microscopic level
[Luanny]

Sakura wrote:

Actually it'd be better if it was on the wiki, it's easier to handle different languages there.

Also you could add subtitles (i think youtube allows that?) even english CC for people that arent good at listening to english but can understand by reading.
^This, please
D33d
Good stuff. Of course, the biggest limitation here is patience and it's why I can never bring myself to time complicated things. Besides that, timing these things accurately will still result in a map that's awkward to play, given that the approach circles will jitter all over the place. To quote from 'War Games,' "The only winning move is not to play." Of course, songs with fewer changes, such as older studio tracks which have been stitched together awkwardly, will still feel quite playable.

It should also be noted that, even if a line or part of the rhythm goes out of time, it may drift back into time almost instantly. Vocals do this a lot, as a lot of singers will swing their lines or otherwise sound "natural" over a rigid beat, so it's worth paying close attention to parts where it's actually better to ignore the fluctuation. A reasonable overall difficulty will let the player hit slightly early or late.

On another note, mm once pondered about the possibility of a time-stretch tool, which could read all of the red sections in a map and even out all of the timing changes. If done properly and with automatic crossfading, this would ensure that songs would have consistent timings and the maps would be much more readable. The person who makes such a thing would earn my undying respect.

Obviously, this wouldn't be appropriate for songs which are based around rubato. Why are people even mapping these things!?
Topic Starter
Charles445
Added subtitles to "Single" and "Multiple", will subtitle "Variable" when I'm not tired.

D33d wrote:

Besides that, timing these things accurately will still result in a map that's awkward to play, given that the approach circles will jitter all over the place.
It can be done. It just needs to be carefully handled by the mapper.

D33d wrote:

It should also be noted that, even if a line or part of the rhythm goes out of time, it may drift back into time almost instantly. Vocals do this a lot, as a lot of singers will swing their lines or otherwise sound "natural" over a rigid beat, so it's worth paying close attention to parts where it's actually better to ignore the fluctuation.
Do not fall into this trap. I have seen people put literally 30 ms off objects just because the timing switches right back a tick later. Off timing is off timing and it should be handled, not ignored.


D33d wrote:

On another note, mm once pondered about the possibility of a time-stretch tool, which could read all of the red sections in a map and even out all of the timing changes. If done properly and with automatic crossfading, this would ensure that songs would have consistent timings and the maps would be much more readable. The person who makes such a thing would earn my undying respect.

This sounds like it would mess with the audio and could make a song sound really really weird. Personally, I'd avoid this.
D33d

Charles445 wrote:

It can be done. It just needs to be carefully handled by the mapper.
Of course it's possible to work with, but there are some songs which flat-out won't feel steady enough for me.

Charles445 wrote:

Do not fall into this trap. I have seen people put literally 30 ms off objects just because the timing switches right back a tick later. Off timing is off timing and it should be handled, not ignored.
If it's that bad, then it should certainly be dealt with as a case-by-case thing, although I'm sure that there are some cases where shunting the timing would mess up the feel of the section. Hell, doing that for 'Footloose' would have created a hurried stream of circles into the chorus and it would've been horrible. If the timing's like that on a slider start (very lenient), which finishes in time, then I don't see why the timing can't be constant. Furthermore, even if off-time vocals are being mapped, their hitobjects can coincide with the underlying beat and that will almost always be stable enough.

Charles445 wrote:

This sounds like it would mess with the audio and could make a song sound really really weird. Personally, I'd avoid this.
That's why I said, "If it's done right and with crossfades." Obviously, if it was used to squash together a piano/string solo, then it's going to sound like a garbled mess, but if it's a case of a song with choppy transitions, then I'm sure that it'd sound okay. It'd need to be quite a powerful tool, but there's no reason why it wouldn't be viable in some cases.

DEEDIT: What I'm rambling on about can be summed up thus: It's definitely worth using these videos to assist with ridiculous timings, but it's up to the mapper to decide when it is or isn't better to stick to the odd fluctuation rigidly. Sometimes, it is better to ignore something that's, say, <=10ms out if it happens once to a few times. Otherwise, it's worth altering the timing if it throws out a section substantially. However, it'll certainly make a map feel very uncomfortable to play for the most part.
Deni
It's in the correct order like Youtube did with your English subtitles.
I'll translate the other videos in the next few days ;)

Single BPM German Translation
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Songs, die nur eine BPM haben, sind die einfachsten zum timen aber es ist nicht

immer einfach.

Glücklicherweise gibt es eine gute Methode das zu tun, die viele Leute kennen.

Als Erstes solltest du versuchen die Map normal zu timen.

Fang bei einem guten Zeitpunkt an zu Tippen.
tippen,tippen,tippen ...

Du wirst gut verstehen was passiert.

Jetzt wirst du vielleicht merken, dass es noch nicht stimmt.

es scheint

ein bisschen langsam zu sein?

Ja, es ist ein wenig zu langsam und das Offset scheint schlecht zu sein also versuche ich jetzt das

Offset zu verbessern.
Ich kümmere mich jetzt erstmal um das Offset, nicht um die BPM.

[ now /// (doesn't need to be here ! already translated in the sentence above ) ]

Das Offset ist viel zu früh hier, du kannst es verlangsamt anhören.

Viel zu früh, also verschieb ich es

sehr viel nach rechts.

Okay, jetzt ist es zu spät also muss ich es wieder zurück verschieben.

Fast schon perfekt, nur noch ein wenig zu spät.

Ungefähr 4 mehr, das sollte es sein.

das sollte es sein. //// (why twice "that should be it." ?)

Perfekt, okay,

Perfekt, okay, jetzt hör ich es mir nochmal mit 100% Geschwindigkeit an. /// (here again "Perfect, okay" twice)

Meine BPM scheint noch immer ein wenig zu langsam.

Hier kommt der Trick.

Du nimmst einen zweiten Schwierigkeitsgrad,

gehst zum Ende des Songs

und fangst an es ab hier zu timen.

Tippen, Tippen, Tippen ...

und jetzt.

Ups, ich wurde vom Spiel getrolled. Nochmal..

Tippen, Tippen, Tippen ...

Jetzt justiere dieses Offset noch einmal

selbstständig

Es ist wieder zu spät, also verschiebe ich es zurück.

Das ist so gut wie perfekt. Jetzt kommt der große Trick. Der Plan ist

die Informationen hiervon zu nehmen, die 249280

und sie in das Gleiche einzufügen.

Alles was du jetzt tun musst

ist

die Timing Sections anzuordnen, sodass sie gegenseitig funktionieren. Ich habe es gerade auf 184 gestellt.

Du hast vielleicht so etwas

Wenn du es allgemein verstehst,

werden dir 2 Timing Sections helfen das Timing

auf die perfekte Dezimale genau zu bestimmen.

Also, schauen wir mal ich suche nach

was auch immer das für eine Zeit ist, Fraps verdeckt es bei mir

249280 also von hier

nach da sollte 249280 sein.

Aber bemerkst du wie es 283 ist?

Also ist es ein bisschen zu schnell

Also setze ich es runter bis ich 80 bekomme.

Oh, es ist eigentlich ein bisschen zu langsam.

Mal probieren mit 08 ... Nachdem ich ein bisschen rumprobiert habe, bekam ich

184.009, was ziemlich nah dran liegt,

wenn nicht exakt.

Jetzt werde ich es noch einmal anhören.

Das ist der Anfang des Songs. Hört sich gut an,

Jetzt gehe ich wieder zum Ende.

Das hört sich auch sehr zutreffend an,

dann gehe ich zur Mitte nur um sicher zu gehen..

184.009 scheint ein gutes Timing für diese Map zu sein.

Nun...

Wenn du so nahe an einer geraden Zahl liegst musst du dir überlegen, ob

es eigentlich die gerade Zahl ist oder die Dezimale.

Aber runde nicht immer bei einer Dezimalen, weil selbst bei einer Dezimalen wie hier, kann das wichtig sein.

Ich ändere die Dezimale nun von 9 zu 0.

Und ich zeige euch die Millisekunden, die einen Unterschied

auf der ganzen Map bewirken.

Es bewirkt einen riesigen Unterschied von 12 Millisekunden am Ende.

Es scheint, dass der Song

die Dezimale 009 gebraucht hat. Wenn man diese Technik zum Timen benutzt,

bekommt man einen korrekten Wert.

Das ist wie man Songs mit einer BPM timed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Stefan
Love the Single BPM Tutorial. ovo
EDIT: For the Multiple BPM Video, the Translation if needed (Yeah, sorry Deni, I was bored at this moment)

Multiple BPM
Nun, jeder mag Lieder mit einer konstanten BPM, aber dies ist manchmal einfach nicht möglich

Hier ein Beispiel, wo ein Lied normalerweise eine einzige BPM besitzt.

Ganz einfach.

Zwar eine komische Zahl, aber immerhin funktioniert sie.

Dann passiert auf einmal was Komisches.

Dies hört sich falsch an und nicht genau zum Takt.

Das Lied wird zunehmend schneller

und nun wo da eigentlich der weiße Strich stehen sollte,

also der große weiße Strich, steht nun ein kleiner.

Das Timing ist nun von hier aus ziemlich inkorrekt.

Also, was machen wir? Natürlich zeigt es sich, dass die BPM sich währenddessen ändert

und zwar ziemlich schnell.

Wie auch immer, dieses Lied wurde nicht mit Live Instrumenten aufgezeichnet

und die Chancen sind, dass die Nummern aufgerundet sind wie man hier erkennen kann,

bespielsweise mit FL Studio.

Die Herausforderung ist also:

Wo genau ist die neue BPM, die erhöht ist und wie genau löse ich dieses Problem?

Das Erste, was ich hier mache ist, herauszufinden ab wann genau das Lied mit dem Timing anfängt,

nicht genau im syncron zu sein.

Es scheint ein wenig aus dem Takt zu kommen,

etwa ab hier, wenn ich richtig liege.

Ab hier wird es bedeutend später als üblich, deswegen werde ich von hier aus anfangen,

auf den weißen großen Tick und mal schauen ob ich

das Timing fixen kann,

genau von hier aus.

Ich werde nun einen Abschnitt hinzufügen und versuchen, das Offset hier perfekt zu anpassen.

Es scheint ein wenig spät zu sein, von daher setze ich es ein wenig zurück und mal sehen, ob es sich besser anhört.

Nun gut, ich habe 545 und wieder werde ich den vorherigen Abschnitt richtig setzen

mit der neuen Zeit.

Indem ich die BPM erhöhe.

565

562

546 und auf was läuft es hinaus? 545? So uh..

Sieht nach 115.45 aus.

Ich lösche mal die Markierung hier.

Ich habe nun die BPM in diesem Teil repariert und dies kann ich genauso gut mit der Nächsten machen.

Genau hier habe ich so genau wie möglich pausiert, damit der Tick optimal zum nächsten Abschnitt passt.

Es ist immernoch ein wenig zu später, deshalb muss ich das Offset hier ein wenig verschieben.

Ein wenig zu spät, deswegen verschiebe ich es nochmal um ein paar Millisekunden.

Ein ganz kleines wenig zu spät.

Perfekt, okay.

Und wieder, genau anpassen.

Jetzt kann man genau sehen, was für einen immensen BPM Unterschied es gibt,

und es war sehr genau.

Hab fast die exakte Zahl.

568

565 und 564

Nun ist es wirklich nicht bedeutend,

hier an der BPM rumzuspielen, da sich hier garnichts am Timing ändern würde,

am Ende.

Also braucht ihr euch auch keine Sorgen darüber zu machen

Ziemlich perfekt, es muss sich nur anhören..

es sollte einwandfrei getimed sein.

Das hört sich jetzt viel besser an

und das ist, was ihr machen müsst

durch das ganze Lied hindurch, wenn ihr an einem arbeitet mit konstanten BPM-Wechsel.

Zwar besteht die Chance, dass meine Zahlen nicht genau sind,

wie hier zum Beispiel, was eigentlich 119 ist und eigentlich ein wenig früher startet, aber..

Ich habe schon Acht darauf gegeben.

Wie sich gezeigt hat,

das es zunehmend mit Fünf ist.

Ist das nicht etwas?

Wenn ich mein vorheriges Timing zurückschaue, an dem ich gearbeitet habe,

werdet ihr merken, dass sie eigentlich recht ähnlich zueinander sind, was die Positionen betrifft.

Ihr könnt immer wieder zurückgehen und eine Fein-Abstimmung an eurer BPMs und Offsets machen,

in der Reihenfolge wie ihr sie richtig haben wollt.

Aber beide Timings wären funktionstüchtig und geeignet.

Und eh.. das ist die Methode, bei Liedern mit multiplen BPMs.

Das ist einer der Dinge, womit viele Leute Probleme haben.

Uh.. diese sind einfach für erfahrende Timers, aber um..

sie sind trotzdem frustriert, versteht ihr?

Ich zum Beispiel hatte das Glück, dass das hier uh.. in fünf Abschnitten geteilt war.

Uh.. wenn ihr ein Beispiel zu einer Map haben wollt, dass eine Menge dieser Wechsel besitzt,

schaut euch meine Beatmap zu Valkyrie Dimension an.
theowest
I included your tutorials in this tutorial project t/109137/
keep up with the great work!
Topic Starter
Charles445
Thanks for the subtitles! I'll write up the third video whenever I get the chance.

Also if I get duplicate subtitles for the same video I'll put signatures next to the captions (I'm putting them anyway)
Deni
Both subtitles fit good, only a little mistake at the "Multiple BPM" tutorial.

At 1:36 Stefan wrote: "Es scheint ein wenig spät zu sein, von daher setze ich es ein wenig zurück und mal sehen, ob es sich besser anhört."
The last part of "anhört" is missing in the video!

Probably a Youtube bug ;)
Topic Starter
Charles445
Nah it was just me being stupid
Fixed
Sieg
Charles <3
nice guide, thanks
Topic Starter
Charles445
Added English subtitles to Variable! Thinking of more tutorial ideas.

Alternate language subtitles are still welcome by the way
D33d
Tutorials? How about more to do with altering the .osu file? I, for one, am still not comfortable with the thought of hacking sliderends to snap to timing changes. Maybe you could include other hacks and ways of locating specific objects in the text document? All of that sort of stuff would be very useful to me.
Topic Starter
Charles445
mm has said that hacking sliderends is not okay as it glitches slider ticks.
I might do a tips and tricks series, that would be cool.
D33d

Charles445 wrote:

mm has said that hacking sliderends is not okay as it glitches slider ticks.
I might do a tips and tricks series, that would be cool.
Oh, I didn't know that, but I did assume that it might make things odd.

While we're at it, when I asked him about it, he said that the easiest solution was to move the whole slider so that the end is snapped. As the start is very lenient, it doesn't matter as much if it's unsnapped.

A general tips and tricks thing would definitely be good. Maybe you could explain your approach to jumps, because they seem to work somewhat okayish when you do them.

DEEDIT: Dunno if it was mentioned in the videos, but it can be more useful to time certain sections with hit circles. Certainly, when a track has stops, a circle with a strong hitsound makes it much more obvious as to how far out the music's timing is.
LKs
starred. wait, no stars here.

good job Charles
Mirage
Nice tutorials, you could also talk about measures and how to set them correctly
yoyomster
Hi there,
I want to make my first beatmap and I figured this tutorial could help me with the timing.
I watched the first tutorial (about single BPM) but I don't get it.
Here are my questions:

1) I think Charles somehow uses the offset to fine-tune the BPM, but why does he do this? What is the connection between the two?

2) In the video when he starts lining out the timing sections of the the two difficulties, he says "From here to there it should be 249280".
What does he mean here?

I hope the answer to these questions will help me understand the tutorial better.
Thanks for your help! :)


edit: I figured it out. Turns out I was overthinking it too much.
master0537
Does anyone know why, when I add new timing it jumps back to a different point and everything gets messed up?
D33d
It seems to be a bug. I don't know if it's been reported yet. Be careful and attentive and you'll be fine.
CloudyLionHeart
I'm still having a lot of trouble with all of this. I have no idea what the BPM or the offset is for or how it helps time the song. I am every new to osu! and I've never made a beatmap before. I would be really greatful for some help.
Miya

CloudyLionHeart wrote:

I'm still having a lot of trouble with all of this. I have no idea what the BPM or the offset is for or how it helps time the song. I am every new to osu! and I've never made a beatmap before. I would be really greatful for some help.
How do i explain BPM and Offset? Hmm, this is just my understanding, correct me if im wrong :

BPM is Beat Per Minute, basically, the consistant rythim of the song. All of song has bpm, you can hear the "tap tap tap" of the song by just hearing it. If you listen to techno song, you can hear that "tap tap tap" easily. Its same for all song actually.

Offset is the time that you put your timing section. Since BPM is consistant, if you put the timing section in the wrong time (or offset) the beat that you place and the music will not synchronize perfectly. To fine tune the offset, hear the first beat that appear. Make it exactly hit the first red timing that you put. Its very important or you will get a LOT of 100 or 50 when you play your beatmap.

I hope it helps :)
CloudyLionHeart
Thanks a bunch for the help but I'm still a bit confused on how to use them :o
Miya
I know, timing a map need experience, you must be a super genius if you can time a song on the first try. Im not understand too when i first try it. And i used to ask people to time the song for me. But since im trying to understand it, i finally understand how to time a map. Just stick to it, and dont give up. Ask a lot of peolple and you must be understand later. ^^
CloudyLionHeart
Thanks a million!!!! ^O^ :)
PeteN00b
Even after watching the video, I don't get how to sync well, I tried it with many songs, even constant BPM songs, they just go offsync after like 20-30 seconds unless I put a new offset/0.1 of a BPM on them for every second..
Fatih120
Thanks so much Charles! You're a hero to me now! :)
Smilya
Not sure....
For do any get this? :cry:



Or did I miss something? :?:
First time of course xP
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