Dreamcatcher - Chase Me · forum

Natsu

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-05T19:15:56+00:00

Xexxar wrote:
02:38:719 - why didnt you start the break here instead of randomly mapping two vocals and then going to break...

because these vocals are the stronger in the slow section and gives a nice touch IMO, also is the title of the song

I Must Decrease

908 posts

Joined June 2013

I Must Decrease 2017-05-05T19:16:50+00:00

fair enough

Voli

811 posts

Joined April 2013

Voli 2017-05-06T01:57:22+00:00

02:38:719 (1) - it's not stacked properly plsdq

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-06T01:57:53+00:00

looooooool

fieryrage

osu! Champion / Elite Nominator II

1,402 posts

Joined November 2013

fieryrage 2017-05-06T04:40:00+00:00

"You are wrong the map is good LOL, u don't have idea on how much support and nice feedback I have! you don't like it that's fine lol, but isn't like I care. Yes you have your opinions about the map, but that doesn't make them correct! just move on alreadyl since almost no one agree with u here."

30 seconds in and a totally unwarranted fullscreen jump
yeah nice map
so why did this get qualified again

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-06T04:46:16+00:00

Why are you reposting post from other maps here? Are you a memer or just trying to call for attention? Anyways the purple combos are stronger than any beat before that point, so these are needed to express what's happening in the song, the pink ones are bigger for obvious reasons, they are the stronger beats in the song, I added the spacing according to the overall spacing of the map and according to the feelings that the song bring to me

fieryrage

osu! Champion / Elite Nominator II

1,402 posts

Joined November 2013

fieryrage 2017-05-06T05:25:15+00:00

~~i reposted it because it gives an idea on how much you respect dissenting opinions.~~ ok i need to look at context more

with that said, i'll actually give my thoughts:

00:10:219 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - this one's more down to personal preference but 00:10:369 (2,3,4) - direct overlaps like these are really, REALLY weird to play in a map, i'd much rather just have a slight overlap rather than a direct one here
00:28:519 (1,2,3,4) - this pattern has a pretty clear emphasis on 00:28:819 (3,4) - these two notes but it keeps the same spacing, why? i could say the same thing about 00:27:919 (1,2,3,4) - this as well considering the emphasis is on 00:28:069 (2,4) - these two notes, but it's not as noticeable since it's not fullscreen. this jump just feels hastily added without really reflecting the rhythm properly.
00:37:519 (1,2,3,4) - why though lol
00:44:719 (5) - shouldn't a new pattern start here and not 00:44:869 (1) - here instead? like, i get the want to use triangle jumps but you can just do that starting on the downbeat instead and it'd make so much more sense
00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - okay so, not only is this pattern difficult to read as it is (imo, at least), 00:51:319 (6,7) - why does this suddenly go fullscreen compared to the steady back-and-forths previously? there's absolutely no reason for it to be that spaced in the song lol
00:55:369 (4,1) - this angling is kinda weird, would lower 1 a bit and it'd be a lot more comfortable to play
01:00:169 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - okay, same thing here, what is the reason for increasing the spacing here? the vocals don't change, the riff doesn't change,
if anything i would expect 01:01:369 (1,2) - these vocals to have spaced jumps
01:14:719 (3) - there's more emphasis on this one but it's stacked for whatever reason?
01:21:019 (2,3,4,5,6,7) - i can kind of see why you stacked here, but this is really counter-intuitive, especially considering 01:21:169 (3) - there's a snare here, 01:21:469 (5) - here and 01:21:769 (7) - here that have little emphasis
01:26:419 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - ehhhh compared to your patterns before this is honestly just way too awkward to play properly, mainly 01:27:169 (1,2,3,4) - snapping to this is near impossible lol
01:28:819 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - same deal here basically
01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - again with a fullscreen jump that's barely emphasized in the song
01:47:119 (5) - same downbeat issue as before
01:47:719 (1,2,3,4) - wait, why does this change spacing so much? shouldn't this just be consistent?
01:52:969 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - literally the same thing as 00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8)
02:02:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - okay, well, on the bright side at least this is consistent spacing, but why this big of spacing for something that's (again) barely emphasized in the song
02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - ...okay, so 02:34:069 (2,3,4,5) - why is this fullscreen and then it just immediately decreases in spacing? what's the point of that?
02:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - i can kind of understand spacing like this for the last kiai since it's arguably the most intense part but still
03:02:119 (1,2,3,4) - eh i'll let this one go, just kind of out of place cuz there's no buildup though
03:03:469 (3,4) - wait what lol shouldn't there be emphasis on 03:04:369 (4,1) - this jump then too? there's not nearly as much as there is here compared to the rest of the patterns

overall the top diff feels like it was heavily rushed, there's rhythm issues, spacing issues, etc. i haven't looked at the other diffs so i can't really speak on those. jumps are way too out of place in almost all areas of the song. would much rather just have the spread end at 6 / 6.5 stars instead of just having a 7 star for the sake of having one (which is what this map honestly feels like).

Last edited by fieryrage 2017-05-06T18:11:48+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-06T06:13:51+00:00

fieryrage wrote:
i reposted it because it gives an idea on how much you respect dissenting opinions. really out of context tbh, you took that comment from my halcyon map, but you didn't notice I said that after requesting a DQ myself and after a month of discussion with the same person

with that said, i'll actually give my thoughts:
00:10:219 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - this one's more down to personal preference but 00:10:369 (2,3,4) - direct overlaps like these are really, REALLY weird to play in a map, i'd much rather just have a slight overlap rather than a direct one here cmon dude is just a stack, even a 30k player like me can read these properly and btw just because a pattern is weird it doesn't mean is bad, just players are not used to non mainstream patterns
00:28:519 (1,2,3,4) - this pattern has a pretty clear emphasis on 00:28:819 (3,4) - these two notes but it keeps the same spacing, why? i could say the same thing about 00:27:919 (1,2,3,4) - this as well considering the emphasis is on 00:28:069 (2,4) - these two notes, but it's not as noticeable since it's not fullscreen. this jump just feels hastily added without really reflecting the rhythm properly. idk how are you interpreting the music, but what I hear is 00:27:919 (1,2) - being a repetition in the music with 00:28:219 (3,4) - , same goes for 00:28:519 (1,2,3,4) - in any case the heavy beat is 1,
but again 1 and 2 repeats in 3 and 4, it's obviously, btw they are cross screen jumps, because the overall spacing of the song allow me to do it.
00:37:519 (1,2,3,4) - why though lol because I like horizontal jumps
00:44:719 (5) - shouldn't a new pattern start here and not 00:44:869 (1) - here instead? like, i get the want to use triangle jumps but you can just do that starting on the downbeat instead and it'd make so much more sense no I don't want to use a triangle, 00:43:519 (1,2,3,4) - non vocals, 00:44:119 (1,2,3,4,5) - vocals, 00:44:869 (1,2,3) - non vocals, 00:45:319 (1,2,3,4) - vocals

00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - okay so, not only is this pattern difficult to read as it is (imo, at least), 00:51:319 (6,7) - why does this suddenly go fullscreen compared to the steady back-and-forths previously? there's absolutely no reason for it to be that spaced in the song lol okay I'll give a full explain about this pattern, since I explained it before, but I guess I need a better explain:

00:50:569 (1) - Is the change of a vocal paragraph and if you notice my map always use a big jump at each different combo

00:50:569 (1,2) - , 00:50:869 (3,4) - , 00:51:169 (5,6) - are back and forth jumps, the red ticks are weaker than the white ones

00:51:319 (6,7,8) - if you notice (you can remove the objects and listen to the song) the 3 beats have drums being they different to the pairs 12 34 56, that's why they have more spacing than the other ones, 8 is the stronger one.

About the pattern I know is a not convencional pattern and might be difficulty to read, that's why I got opinions from top players such as Cxu, kabblaze, enon, leaf, DTsama etc.

Here are for example some of the imput I got from them:
2017-04-20 16:37 Natsu: hahaha idk I still think that horizontal ones maybe are hard to play?
2017-04-20 16:38 CXu: they're fun though xd
2017-04-23 03:33 Natsu: ACTION is listening to [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1241398 Dreamcatcher - Chase Me]
2017-04-23 03:33 Natsu: this one the hardest diff
2017-04-23 03:34 kablaze: dl'ing
2017-04-23 03:37 kablaze: fun map!
2017-04-23 03:37 Natsu: it's there something uncomfortable=?
2017-04-23 03:40 kablaze: 01:20:968 (2,3,4,5,6,7) - this is a bit strange to read but i understand the purpose
2017-04-23 03:40 Natsu:  I'll move them somewhere else xD
2017-04-23 03:41 kablaze: alright :D
2017-04-23 03:41 kablaze: other than that it's great
00:55:369 (4,1) - this angling is kinda weird, would lower 1 a bit and it'd be a lot more comfortable to play it's a zigzag movement, it's a really mainstream angle in maps tho
01:00:169 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - okay, same thing here, what is the reason for increasing the spacing here? the vocals don't change, the riff doesn't change,
if anything i would expect 01:01:369 (1,2) - these vocals to have spaced jumps 01:00:169 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - the vocals at this part are the stronger ones in the song, if you notice I mapped to the vocals most of the time (without the filler rhythms or the non vocal parts), these vocals have the higher pitch in the song, btw don't focus that much on instruments to judge spacing when is obviously that I base my map in vocals
01:14:719 (3) - there's more emphasis on this one but it's stacked for whatever reason? for me is filler rhythm, again I'm mapping to the vocals, they are stacked because I don't want to bring movement to that non vocal part
01:21:019 (2,3,4,5,6,7) - i can kind of see why you stacked here, but this is really counter-intuitive, especially considering 01:21:169 (3) - there's a snare here, 01:21:469 (5) - here and 01:21:769 (7) - here that have little emphasis I wanted to stack the drum beats, because would be super weird to have different rhythms as jumps, the stack create a pair rhythms which are better to differetiate them
01:26:419 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - ehhhh compared to your patterns before this is honestly just way too awkward to play properly, mainly 01:27:169 (1,2,3,4) - snapping to this is near impossible lol [/color]
01:28:819 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - same deal here basically what's the problem with basic patterns, is just a star pattern or nowadays people don't use them anymore?
01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - again with a fullscreen jump that's barely emphasized in the song the overall spacing of the map is big, take a look at 01:38:719 (1,2,3,4) - they are weaker beats than 01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - the stronger have bigger spacing, there are no such thing as this is the correct spacing for something, take a look at the big picture of the map and then judge the map by its overall spacing
01:47:119 (5) - same downbeat issue as before 01:45:919 (1,2,3,4) - non vocals, 01:46:519 (1,2,3,4,5) - vocals, 01:47:269 (1,2,3) - non vocals, 01:47:719 (1,2,3,4) - vocals
01:47:719 (1,2,3,4) - wait, why does this change spacing so much? shouldn't this just be consistent? vocals combo are bigger than the instrumental only combos, try to understand the map better and also notice that mapping is not only about drums, but vocals guitar etc
01:52:969 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - literally the same thing as 00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) same as before explain
02:02:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - okay, well, on the bright side at least this is consistent spacing, but why this big of spacing for something that's (again) barely emphasized in the song again these vocals had the higher pitch in the whole song.
02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - ...okay, so 02:34:069 (2,3,4,5) - why is this fullscreen and then it just immediately decreases in spacing? what's the point of that? listen to this part of the song 02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1) - the decrescendo is obviously, that's the reason from starting with bigger spacing and then decreasing it
02:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - i can kind of understand spacing like this for the last kiai since it's arguably the most intense part but still vocal pitch and overall intensity of the kiai
03:02:119 (1,2,3,4) - eh i'll let this one go, just kind of out of place cuz there's no buildup though 03:02:119 (1,2,3,4) this beats are super intense compared to the rest of jumps at the last part of the song, obviously they have more spacing
03:03:469 (3,4) - wait what lol shouldn't there be emphasis on 03:04:369 (4,1) - this jump then too? there's not nearly as much as there is here compared to the rest of the patterns strong cymbal 03:03:619 (4) - strong cymbal 03:04:519 (1) -
overall the top diff feels like it was heavily rushed, there's rhythm issues, spacing issues, etc. i haven't looked at the other diffs so i can't really speak on those. jumps are way too out of place in almost all areas of the song. would much rather just have the spread end at 6 / 6.5 stars instead of just having a 7 star for the sake of having one (which is what this map honestly feels like).

1. rhythm issues? and you didn't pointed a single rhythm suggestion in your mod
2. spacing issues, I explained them to you well now, I also explained them at https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/5988334, jumps aren't out of place, they are placed in the stronger beats and mostly in the high pitched vocals
3. Why are you judging maps with star ranting, never do that, isn't accurate.

well since you're posting unrelated things, let me show u somethig with your map song and mine as example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/429436 this not heavy beat song is mapped with a lot of jumps, then compare it with my song which is a rock song with a lot of heavy beats and high pitch vocals, ofc mines are more justified than yours.

Irreversible

osu! Alumni

4,315 posts

Joined December 2011

Irreversible 2017-05-06T15:31:22+00:00

Hey Natsu, sorry to be a party pooper but I'd like to talk about these jumps again, and refer to our conversation we had.

00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Her voice is just not that spiking here, and it's really not anywhere else. The song is pretty stable, like I've explained you, so I really think that these jumps are very unjustified.

A good fix you've made was 01:02:719 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1) - this part. I think the progressive increase is well executed. But as for the rest, I really think you'd need to rework those. You should look at P A N's parts, as I told you, I think he did a good job in catching the emphasis properly there.

I've adjusted some things, and the SR will drop a bit but it's still definitely in the proper range this map is supposed to be - in case you care about SR (which you should not in this case)

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-06T15:34:39+00:00

I'll explain these jumps as soon as I get in home I'll talk with u at irc again

ok first to all PAN has his way of mappin and I have mine, secondly the SR wouldn't drop if change that pattern, tbh I'd just make a mainstrean star pattern that would not bother anyone.

Ok i'll do my best to explain these patterns

00:50:569 (1) - Is the change of the vocal paragrahp, I did this kind of jumps consistently in the map.

00:50:569 (1,2) - 00:50:869 (3,4) - 00:51:169 (5,6) - these are the back and forth jumps, it's really noticeable that the white ticks are stronger than the reds, hence why I made back and forth jumps.

00:51:319 (6,7,8) - here something special happen the three beats has drums, that's why the spacing increase 6 and 7 are different than the rest and 8 is the higher beat of the pattern.

the pattern looks huge because is horizontal, take a look at the spacing of each pair is 3.0 00:50:569 (1,2) - which isn't high for my overal spacing, compare it to other patterns which aren't stronger than this 00:47:119 (1,2,3,4,5) - 02:21:619 (2,3) - , the spacing is only visually a lie.

It's true that the 3 stronger beats has bigger spacing than the rest, but the music allow me to it, check the big picture of the map and check the overall spacing to judge the big jumps. This is a heavy beat song with slower parts on the kiai, I still don't get how is wrong, while tv sizes of pop songs do the same with a less stronger song.

BTW in my interpretation of the song these parts should be like that and I really have strong feelings about these jumps paatterns, unless I get forced to change them for a random star pattern that doesn't add anything to the map, I'm not changing them. I already talked with many top players and mappers about them, and many agree that they fit the song.

Hope my explain is enough to you, since you know IDC about the SR and I nerfed almost every jump when we IRC'd, I just believe that part contains the stronger vocals in the song, it's just my interpretation.

I tried my best to explain the pattern in IRC to Irre, but we don't maake an agreement with it, the spacing isn't different at other jumps (without 7 and 8 where the instruments changes), I really don't want to change the pattern, unless I'm forced to change my interpretation of the song (which I don't think is good at any case).

CXu

osu! Alumni

3,558 posts

Joined March 2009

CXu 2017-05-06T16:18:21+00:00

Just my 2 cents, but the back and forth horizontal jumps work because the vocals are rapid, short 1/2 length sounds compared to other parts of the kiai which mixes in longer vocal sounds after 1 or 2 shorter ones. Depending on how you interpret music, the rapid vocal part will sound more intense just because the singer is singing faster. As for the pattern itself, you could make whatever kind of pattern really as long as they're fairly sharp-angled due to the syllabic nature of the vocals, so why not horizontal back-and-forths? Since it's repeated motion they might as well just represent the stability of how strong the vocal is. They're not even particularly hard to read anymore either since you got rid of all the overlaps anyway xd.

Irreversible

osu! Alumni

4,315 posts

Joined December 2011

Irreversible 2017-05-06T16:49:06+00:00

CXu wrote:
Just my 2 cents, but the back and forth horizontal jumps work because the vocals are rapid, short 1/2 length sounds compared to other parts of the kiai which mixes in longer vocal sounds after 1 or 2 shorter ones. Depending on how you interpret music, the rapid vocal part will sound more intense just because the singer is singing faster. As for the pattern itself, you could make whatever kind of pattern really as long as they're fairly sharp-angled due to the syllabic nature of the vocals, so why not horizontal back-and-forths? Since it's repeated motion they might as well just represent the stability of how strong the vocal is. They're not even particularly hard to read anymore either since you got rid of all the overlaps anyway xd.

Once again, I'm not talking about the patterning, this is up to the mapper. Even though I personally think it's not the best way to express them, it's fine, since everyone can interprete it differently. What I don't agree with is the scaling of the jumps, and only that. If you can explain the ratio of it, then that's fine (how big jump 1 is compared to jump 2), but you start with a way exaggerated jump-base-setting imo.

Also, I disagree that she sings "that much" faster there. Vocals like 00:49:069 (1,2) - sound way more stressed than they do in the jump sections. What changes is that the density of the vocals change, but that's a given since the density of vocals also increase.

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-06T16:59:22+00:00

They aren't exagerate thbut first pairs have a spacing of 3.0 and the back beat to the next pair is 2,70 which isn't bigger than the rest of the map, the last three beats are stronger objectively talking. I can get more people to backup my pattern as you can too, when there are divided opinions about something the best is to let the mapper keep their interpretation of the song, isn't hard to accept that people has different interpretations of the same song and as you see there are multiple people that think like me, isn't just the case at your 8 star maps where people think it was overdone? But u firmely believe it was right. It's the same in this case I strongly believe these are the stronger and rapid vocals of the song and needs a special pattern to show their unique feeling.

WORSTPOLACKEU

511 posts

Joined May 2013

WORSTPOLACKEU 2017-05-06T17:14:17+00:00

Imo 01:52:969 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this pattern is just wrongly situated, I can't understand what you are following there especially when the jumps start a note before the actual section switch. Is it really wise to implement 01:52:969 (1) - in the same jump pattern that you made after? It feels wrong, I asked Rafis to testplay it and he also said it wasn't that comfortable and kinda sudden.

Why not switch 01:52:969 (1,2) - to a extended 1/2 slider like you did 2 notes earlier which would emphasize it well and add a form of introduction before the jumps?

01:51:769 (1,2,3,1,2) - You obviously mapped this for the vocals, why do you change to the jumps when the next vocal is the same as previous? It's just too early to change imo, next section isn't starting yet.

01:00:169 (1,2) - same for these moments.

I feel like overall you're introducing the jumps too early and the result is loss in intuitive gameplay + emphasis for the actual section + some may say quality of the map.

Also this doesn't look straight??? https://wisniowkaxd.s-ul.eu/G3IPtd1x
00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Same here, it feels like it could be straight and the distasnce between notes isn't even equal.
Why is it not when it could be, maybe not that important but I think it would improve the quality.

Otherwise p good map, I like it. Writing this cause I smell DQ so maybe you could improve that!

CXu

osu! Alumni

3,558 posts

Joined March 2009

CXu 2017-05-06T17:22:20+00:00

Irreversible wrote:
CXu wrote:
Just my 2 cents, but the back and forth horizontal jumps work because the vocals are rapid, short 1/2 length sounds compared to other parts of the kiai which mixes in longer vocal sounds after 1 or 2 shorter ones. Depending on how you interpret music, the rapid vocal part will sound more intense just because the singer is singing faster. As for the pattern itself, you could make whatever kind of pattern really as long as they're fairly sharp-angled due to the syllabic nature of the vocals, so why not horizontal back-and-forths? Since it's repeated motion they might as well just represent the stability of how strong the vocal is. They're not even particularly hard to read anymore either since you got rid of all the overlaps anyway xd.
Once again, I'm not talking about the patterning, this is up to the mapper. Even though I personally think it's not the best way to express them, it's fine, since everyone can interprete it differently. What I don't agree with is the scaling of the jumps, and only that. If you can explain the ratio of it, then that's fine (how big jump 1 is compared to jump 2), but you start with a way exaggerated jump-base-setting imo.

Also, I disagree that she sings "that much" faster there. Vocals like 00:49:069 (1,2) - sound way more stressed than they do in the jump sections. What changes is that the density of the vocals change, but that's a given since the density of vocals also increase.

I'm not trying to speak for Natsu in terms of how he judges the scaling and whatnot, so take it as my opinion on the matter and not what the intentions of the map actually is. If you're talking specifically about 00:51:319 (6,7,8) - , then as long as the purpose is to make these 3 notes stronger due to the extra drum beats, placing (7) as far away as it is makes reading the pattern easier as the previous note has long since faded away. Symmetry also helps with readability. I'd argue that if you're playing maps at this difficulty already anyway, the difference between 1 big jump vs 1 slightly smaller jump on this part is negligible in terms of difficulty, but does make the map itself flow better while playing as you can easier rely on muscle memory to take you from one side of the screen to the symmetrical point on the other side.

Also I never said she sang much faster, she sings faster as in there are more syllables per second or whatever, and thus having rapid singletapping circles works fine. As for the other vocal being more stressed, sure, and it has an appropriate jump and slider which forces the player to hold down the button (you can lightly tap a key to hit a note, but in most cases will hold the key completely down on a slider, making a slider head feel slightly heavier than a single note)

And as a more general note, but variation in spacing to stress notes happens all the time in almost all maps. You might have a note stressed using 1.4x DS in a map, then 2.3x DS when the same note comes up later solely due to what the patterns look like. If they're sufficiently different from the surrounding notes, they still give emphasis.

btw @Natsu you missed a normal sampleset at 02:02:419 (3) -

@worstpolackeu I think that mainly comes from what you're listening to while playing. The vocals start half a beat earlier than the downbeat, which I believe is why the pattern starts "early".

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-06T17:35:33+00:00

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:
Imo 01:52:969 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this pattern is just wrongly situated, I can't understand what you are following there especially when the jumps start a note before the actual section switch. Is it really wise to implement 01:52:969 (1) - in the same jump pattern that you made after? It feels wrong, I asked Rafis to testplay it and he also said it wasn't that comfortable and kinda sudden. I'm following vocals in all the map that's why the combo start at the actual 1, would be super wrong to start it at the downbeat when I'm focus in the vocals

Why not switch 01:52:969 (1,2) - to a extended 1/2 slider like you did 2 notes earlier which would emphasize it well and add a form of introduction before the jumps? because 2 is a stronger cymbal and would be weird to map it as slider tail

01:51:769 (1,2,3,1,2) - You obviously mapped this for the vocals, why do you change to the jumps when the next vocal is the same as previous? It's just too early to change imo, next section isn't starting yet.vIsn't the same as previously these vocals aren't in 1/2s

01:00:169 (1,2) - same for these moments. yeah the vocals start at 1 not at the downbeat

I feel like overall you're introducing the jumps too early and the result is loss in intuitive gameplay + emphasis for the actual section + some may say quality of the map. jumps are introduced, since 00:18:919 (1,2) - there are already 2,80 jumps in the map at the beggining

Also this doesn't look straight??? https://wisniowkaxd.s-ul.eu/G3IPtd1x it looks straigh o.O unless you are extremely nazi
00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Same here, it feels like it could be straight and the distasnce between notes isn't even equal. they are equal,
eacch pair have a 3,0 jump and at back at the next pair is 2,30
Why is it not when it could be, maybe not that important but I think it would improve the quality.

Otherwise p good map, I like it. Writing this cause I smell DQ so maybe you could improve that!

btw take a look at the spacing in all the kiai 02:08:269 (1,2,3) - 00:49:669 (2,3,1) - 00:52:069 (2,3,1,2,3,4) - etc the jumps aren't different in spacin to that specific pattern, just 6,7 and 8 are of a different intensity, 00:51:769 (1,2) - they are 1/4s and I don't think the current SV allow me to have hug 1/4 jumps at all.

If the DQ where to improve the map I'd request it myself, but in this case is to force me to change the part that I love the most in my map and I think I need to defend it as I can.

I'll talk with Irre more and see oif we can get a mutual agreement, I'm up to change stuff, but also I hope you guys can understand my point of view, I can basicaly explain every object in the map and why the spacing of that object is like that, I'm really careful with my maps.

TBH at this point idk if is the pattern that bother people a lot, because the spacing isn't different to other jumps.

I actually don't understad his issue tbh, the spacing isn't different to other parts of the map

Last edited by Natsu 2017-05-06T18:12:57+00:00, edited 2 times in total.

WORSTPOLACKEU

511 posts

Joined May 2013

WORSTPOLACKEU 2017-05-06T17:43:18+00:00

I meant this, those are the three notes grouped and they are of inequal distance to each other.
https://wisniowkaxd.s-ul.eu/Sv0WkokO
That they are not of equal distance from each other, also I think that if you already make a pattern that is back n forth in a straight line like that you could just do it extremely straight without small differences, so if DQ happens would be nice to change that tbh! Not that much work anyway

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-06T17:44:02+00:00

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:
I meant this
https://wisniowkaxd.s-ul.eu/Sv0WkokO
That they are not of equal distance from each other, also I think that if you already make a pattern that is back n forth in a straight line like that you could just do it extremely straight without small differences, so if DQ happens would be nice to change that tbh! Not that much work anyway

that's a 1 pixel thing pls

WORSTPOLACKEU

511 posts

Joined May 2013

WORSTPOLACKEU 2017-05-06T17:58:58+00:00

Natsu wrote:
WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:
I meant this
https://wisniowkaxd.s-ul.eu/Sv0WkokO
That they are not of equal distance from each other, also I think that if you already make a pattern that is back n forth in a straight line like that you could just do it extremely straight without small differences, so if DQ happens would be nice to change that tbh! Not that much work anyway
that's a 1 pixel thing pls

Yeah it's not a problem I just think personally it should be done straight af, but not a problem play wise or anything ^^

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-06T20:44:03+00:00

Irre this would be better?

a

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472,256,101269,2,0,P|392:236|324:288,1,160,0|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
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264,144,107569,1,8,3:0:0:0:
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216,252,107869,1,8,3:0:0:0:
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140,284,108319,38,0,P|184:328|264:184,1,300,6|0,3:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
216,252,109519,37,12,1:0:0:0:
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168,192,110344,1,0,1:0:0:0:
168,192,110419,2,0,P|144:228|176:316,1,120,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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171,32,112219,1,8,1:0:0:0:
164,244,112369,70,0,P|244:269|311:240,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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324,24,113869,1,2,1:0:0:0:
276,324,114019,1,8,1:0:0:0:
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146,326,115219,2,0,P|118:260|166:190,1,150,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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483,379,116269,1,2,1:0:0:0:
512,112,116419,1,8,1:0:0:0:
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396,212,116869,1,2,1:0:0:0:
483,379,117019,1,8,1:0:0:0:
323,166,117169,70,0,P|373:127|466:168,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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350,28,117619,1,8,1:0:0:0:
206,152,117769,1,2,1:0:0:0:
472,239,117919,6,0,P|477:190|452:148,1,100,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
255,91,118219,1,8,1:0:0:0:
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451,147,118669,1,0,1:0:0:0:
176,81,118819,1,8,1:0:0:0:
491,85,118969,70,0,P|523:143|483:213,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
419,256,119269,1,2,1:0:0:0:
425,27,119419,1,12,1:0:0:0:
292,260,119569,6,0,P|350:292|420:252,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
486,211,119869,1,0,1:0:0:0:
235,195,120019,2,0,P|208:237|213:286,1,100,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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418,284,121219,1,8,1:0:0:0:
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354,364,121669,1,2,1:0:0:0:
154,291,121819,1,8,1:0:0:0:
304,97,121969,6,0,L|332:251,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
429,267,122269,1,2,1:0:0:0:
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142,308,123019,1,8,1:0:0:0:
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100,204,123319,1,8,1:0:0:0:
511,292,123469,1,2,1:0:0:0:
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447,368,123769,6,0,P|364:361|331:306,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
324,203,124069,1,2,1:0:0:0:
512,291,124219,2,0,L|412:290,1,100,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
132,308,124519,69,0,1:0:0:0:
324,203,124669,1,0,1:0:0:0:
257,376,124819,2,0,L|236:278,1,100,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
127,86,125119,6,0,P|194:111|246:48,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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209,28,126019,1,8,1:0:0:0:
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224,38,126319,6,0,L|246:193,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
246,292,126619,2,0,P|246:238|290:284,1,150,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
286,366,126919,1,0,1:0:0:0:
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100,178,127219,69,8,1:0:0:0:
356,149,127369,1,2,1:0:0:0:
53,242,127519,6,0,P|22:171|59:112,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
217,178,127819,2,0,B|101:178|101:178|131:148,1,150,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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318,295,128269,69,0,1:0:0:0:
53,242,128419,1,8,1:0:0:0:
298,146,128569,2,0,L|320:317,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
335,383,128869,1,2,1:0:0:0:
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285,71,129169,1,0,1:0:0:0:
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113,96,129469,1,0,1:0:0:0:
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160,384,129844,1,8,1:0:0:0:
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308,356,130969,1,0,1:0:0:0:
213,203,131119,2,0,P|263:156|330:165,1,139.999995727539,6|0,3:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
308,356,131569,69,0,1:0:0:0:
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229,306,132619,69,2,0:0:0:0:
258,161,132769,1,0,1:0:0:0:
215,374,132919,2,0,L|228:305,1,69.9999978637696,8|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
272,90,133219,1,2,0:0:0:0:
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284,21,133594,1,2,0:0:0:0:
284,21,133669,2,0,L|271:90,1,69.9999978637696,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
244,234,133969,1,0,1:0:0:0:
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244,234,134419,2,0,P|312:259|379:230,1,150,6|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
454,173,134719,69,6,1:0:0:0:
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360,144,135169,69,2,0:0:0:0:
512,100,135319,1,8,1:0:0:0:
352,116,135469,1,0,1:0:0:0:
454,173,135619,1,2,0:0:0:0:
472,23,135769,1,0,1:0:0:0:
508,232,135919,2,0,P|444:256|384:216,1,139.999995727539,6|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
140,48,136519,5,8,1:0:0:0:
216,108,136669,1,0,0:0:0:0:
296,164,136819,1,0,0:0:0:0:
216,224,136969,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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440,240,137719,1,8,1:0:0:0:
296,316,137869,2,0,L|212:316,1,69.9999978637696,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
344,244,138169,1,0,1:0:0:0:
168,372,138319,5,6,3:0:0:0:
168,372,138394,1,2,0:0:0:0:
168,372,138469,2,0,L|84:372,1,69.9999978637696,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
296,316,138769,69,0,1:0:0:0:
164,184,138919,2,0,L|192:272,1,69.9999978637696,14|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
248,380,139219,5,2,0:0:0:0:
100,232,139369,1,0,1:0:0:0:
328,192,139519,70,0,L|440:180,1,80,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
256,264,139819,1,0,1:0:0:0:
256,120,139969,2,0,L|244:8,1,80,2|0,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
184,192,140269,2,0,L|72:204,1,80,2|0,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
256,264,140569,2,0,L|268:376,1,80,2|6,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
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184,192,141019,2,0,L|72:204,1,80,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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500,56,141619,1,0,1:0:0:0:
436,256,141769,1,2,0:0:0:0:
308,80,141919,70,0,P|345:68|388:80,1,80,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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128,77,142369,2,0,P|166:67|204:80,1,80,2|0,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
356,192,142669,2,0,P|367:229|358:268,1,80,2|0,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
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256,132,143269,1,2,0:0:0:0:
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320,340,143719,2,0,P|357:328|396:337,1,80,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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428,252,144469,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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340,260,144769,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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260,232,146419,1,0,1:0:0:0:
304,332,146569,1,2,0:0:0:0:
160,192,146719,70,0,P|118:199|76:192,1,80,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
352,192,147019,2,0,P|393:184|436:192,1,80,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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408,28,147769,5,0,1:0:0:0:
105,90,147919,1,14,1:0:0:0:
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105,90,148369,70,0,P|93:134|113:182,1,100,2|12,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
328,323,148669,6,0,P|367:225|314:133,1,220.000006713867,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
248,323,149119,37,6,1:0:0:0:
248,323,149269,2,0,L|360:323,1,80,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
492,324,149569,5,0,1:0:0:0:
388,192,149719,2,0,P|375:229|388:267,1,80,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
484,152,150019,2,0,P|496:114|483:76,1,80,2|0,0:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
296,112,150319,1,6,3:0:0:0:
296,112,150469,2,0,B|420:112|420:112|384:92,1,160,0|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
224,72,150919,70,0,P|212:108|236:164,1,80,14|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
288,312,151219,2,0,P|300:276|276:220,1,80,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
128,272,151519,1,6,1:0:0:0:
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320,144,152119,1,8,1:0:0:0:
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232,272,152569,2,0,L|408:272,1,160,0|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
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280,112,153319,1,14,1:0:0:0:
164,228,153469,2,0,L|72:228,1,80,0|0,1:0|1:0,0:0:0:0:
232,272,153769,1,8,3:0:0:0:
240,28,153919,37,14,3:0:0:0:
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104,160,154219,1,8,3:0:0:0:
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240,28,155569,1,8,3:0:0:0:
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224,240,156244,1,8,3:0:0:0:
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360,208,168769,1,8,3:0:0:0:
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156,344,172219,2,0,P|140:292|164:236,1,100,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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432,232,177919,6,0,P|448:156|408:92,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
332,52,178219,1,2,0:0:0:0:
210,209,178369,37,0,1:0:0:0:
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376,140,179269,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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256,338,179569,1,0,1:0:0:0:
342,37,179719,69,14,1:0:0:0:
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430,68,180019,1,0,0:0:0:0:
280,97,180169,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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344,65,180619,1,2,0:0:0:0:
154,192,180769,37,0,1:0:0:0:
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28,164,182419,1,8,1:0:0:0:
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236,204,183019,1,2,1:0:0:0:
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232,321,183319,1,0,1:0:0:0:
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238,186,183919,5,0,1:0:0:0:
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275,82,184219,1,0,1:0:0:0:
202,295,184369,1,0,0:0:0:0:
512,185,184519,69,6,1:0:0:0:
308,261,184669,1,0,0:0:0:0:
501,269,184819,1,0,1:0:0:0:
332,181,184969,1,0,0:0:0:0:
425,12,185119,38,0,P|459:65|426:142,1,150,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
332,181,185419,1,2,1:0:0:0:
504,169,185569,37,0,0:0:0:0:
259,190,185719,1,0,1:0:0:0:
437,218,185869,1,0,0:0:0:0:
200,242,186019,1,0,1:0:0:0:
512,249,186169,1,0,0:0:0:0:
143,296,186319,70,0,P|146:184|258:189,1,250,6|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:

If posible I'd want to keep my pattern as I explained it at ; p/5998172, if it's a must to change, I can make that compromise ^

2017-05-07 12:22 WORSTPOLACKEU: dude I played that map
2017-05-07 12:23 WORSTPOLACKEU: it's lit af and I have to say that jump pattern I spoke of actually plays well but I didn't think it would do it when it starts like that
2017-05-07 12:24 Natsu: yeah man
2017-05-07 12:24 Natsu: Is just a visual thing that make it loooks WDF, but in the gameplay is fine I talked with many players such as cxu leaf enon etc,
 the spacing doesn't even feels like crossscreen, because of the flow the pattern generates
2017-05-07 13:05 WORSTPOLACKEU: ACTION is playing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1241398 Dreamcatcher - Chase Me [Nightmare]] +Hidden
2017-05-07 13:05 WORSTPOLACKEU: the more I play it the better it gets
2017-05-07 13:05 WORSTPOLACKEU: lol
2017-05-07 13:07 Natsu: yeah I guess is because i put emphasis in the parts I think were stronger, idk man is like your map 1-2 jumps they are super cool

discussed with many players and most of them understand my logic about the pattern, I really want to keep it

Mao

Elite Mapper II

2,963 posts

Joined December 2012

Mao 2017-05-08T20:04:41+00:00

Hey Natsu,

I'm disqualifying this because I think the issues Irreversible mentioned are valid and need to be adressed. As you have told me already that you are willing to change it, it might be nice to discuss different approaches within this thread as well.

Moreover personally I think the overall concept of the map is broken, not only the pattern Irre linked. Generally many jumps don't emphasize anything or go well with the music. Most instances just lack emphasis like 01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - or feel unorgainzed like 02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - . In my opionion you'll have to change your jump placement concepts drastically in order to fix these issues.

Anyways, I'd like to have some more discussion going on here before we proceed. For further assistance, feel free to PM us! Good luck for now /o/

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-08T22:33:11+00:00

Mao wrote:
Hey Natsu,

I'm disqualifying this because I think the issues Irreversible mentioned are valid and need to be adressed. As you have told me already that you are willing to change it, it might be nice to discuss different approaches within this thread as well.

Moreover personally I think the overall concept of the map is broken, not only the pattern Irre linked. Generally many jumps don't emphasize anything or go well with the music. Most instances just lack emphasis like 01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - or feel unorgainzed like 02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4) - . In my opionion you'll have to change your jump placement concepts drastically in order to fix these issues.

Anyways, I'd like to have some more discussion going on here before we proceed. For further assistance, feel free to PM us! Good luck for now /o/

well mao I really love my diff, but I also know that I need to make a compromise, so I'll liste the changes that I made:

00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - nerfed and changed the pattern
01:52:969 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - same
00:43:519 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - nerfed a bit and changed the patterns
01:45:919 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2,3,4) - *
00:48:319 (1,2) - 01:50:719 (1,2) - consistency
02:33:919 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6) - nerfed and rebuilded
01:39:919 (1,2,3,4) - reorganized
00:37:519 (1,2,3,4) - *
02:02:419 (3) - added normal sample

hope we can make an agreement with this

Voli

811 posts

Joined April 2013

Voli 2017-05-08T23:58:52+00:00

Hey btw, now it is disqualified either way, wouldn't it be a cool idea to implement some sort of escalation in these patterns? 01:02:719 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - The vocals and background music get stronger and higher pitched every time this section occurs, and right now the slider pairs are all roughly spaced the same. I think it'd be very satisfying to play if you were to implement something like that. Just an idea tho, feel free to do whatever you want with it.

WORSTPOLACKEU

511 posts

Joined May 2013

WORSTPOLACKEU 2017-05-09T12:01:11+00:00

I somehow feel really sad to see this unranked because of that pattern, both me and Rafis just saw it when he played it and we simultaneously said it's sad that they are gone... this maps signature was imo those particular jumps that were very cool and nice to play.

Really saddening to see them gone just because of some opinions that those jumps do not fit, I dare say there are more people than me and eventually Rafis that really liked those jumps and felt like it was the soul of this map.

A map should not be disqualified when the creator provided an explanaiton that is logical and fits.

Really sad.

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-09T14:08:47+00:00

I'm sorry about that too, tbh I got multiple pms of people supporting those jumps (the signature of the map), but even if the comunity support them, I can't do anything, but make a compromise with the QAT in order to rank my map

CXu

osu! Alumni

3,558 posts

Joined March 2009

CXu 2017-05-09T14:13:14+00:00

Here's the old version in case you want to revert it back and don't have the .osu anymore
https://puu.sh/vKA3x.osu

Also please don't remove the linear back-and-forths, they're the defining parts of the map. And I don't see how making them more generic triangle patterns (if those are found more acceptable anyway) in any way is "better" than the linear ones, since it's more or less the same distance for most of the notes anyway, and if it's about readability; it's a 7* star map, get better at reading.

If it's distance emphasis, you can rearrange it like https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8043278

Since we are on the topic of nerfing big jumps, I do think this one is a tad bit too big compared to the mapping surrounding it 00:28:519 (1,2,3,4), and maybe you could reduce it a little like https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8043217 or something.

But yeah in any case, I think you should stick to your guns on that particular back-and-forth pattern. There can be objective quality issues and there can be subjective preferences to patterns, and I'd say this one seems to be the latter rather than the former.

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-09T14:23:01+00:00

OFC I want to keep my interpretation of the map, since is what makes sense for me, but how to change QATs mind, even Rafis and worstpolak changed their mind about it and ended liked my map, I did my best explaining it at:

Natsu wrote:
I'll explain these jumps as soon as I get in home I'll talk with u at irc again

ok first to all PAN has his way of mappin and I have mine, secondly the SR wouldn't drop if change that pattern, tbh I'd just make a mainstrean star pattern that would not bother anyone.

Ok i'll do my best to explain these patterns

00:50:569 (1) - Is the change of the vocal paragrahp, I did this kind of jumps consistently in the map.

00:50:569 (1,2) - 00:50:869 (3,4) - 00:51:169 (5,6) - these are the back and forth jumps, it's really noticeable that the white ticks are stronger than the reds, hence why I made back and forth jumps.

00:51:319 (6,7,8) - here something special happen the three beats has drums, that's why the spacing increase 6 and 7 are different than the rest and 8 is the higher beat of the pattern.

the pattern looks huge because is horizontal, take a look at the spacing of each pair is 3.0 00:50:569 (1,2) - which isn't high for my overal spacing, compare it to other patterns which aren't stronger than this 00:47:119 (1,2,3,4,5) - 02:21:619 (2,3) - , the spacing is only visually a lie.

It's true that the 3 stronger beats has bigger spacing than the rest, but the music allow me to it, check the big picture of the map and check the overall spacing to judge the big jumps. This is a heavy beat song with slower parts on the kiai, I still don't get how is wrong, while tv sizes of pop songs do the same with a less stronger song.

BTW in my interpretation of the song these parts should be like that and I really have strong feelings about these jumps paatterns, unless I get forced to change them for a random star pattern that doesn't add anything to the map, I'm not changing them. I already talked with many top players and mappers about them, and many agree that they fit the song.

Hope my explain is enough to you, since you know IDC about the SR and I nerfed almost every jump when we IRC'd, I just believe that part contains the stronger vocals in the song, it's just my interpretation.

I tried my best to explain the pattern in IRC to Irre, but we don't maake an agreement with it, the spacing isn't different at other jumps (without 7 and 8 where the instruments changes), I really don't want to change the pattern, unless I'm forced to change my interpretation of the song (which I don't think is good at any case).

I talked a lot with Irre and idk what else I can do to convince him

riffy

osu! Alumni

8,060 posts

Joined December 2010

riffy 2017-05-09T14:46:19+00:00

Can we be a bit more patient, please. I do believe there is a huge misunderstanding happening. I sincerely believe Irreversible (the person whose post is said to be the initial Disqualification reason) and Mao (the disqualifying QAT) should explain things in a more detailed way.

19:52 Bakari: thing is, did Irre or Mao manage to convince you that any of your points were wrong? 
19:52 Natsu: because i map  with full organization and with my iinterpretation in mind, the concept of the diff is good and the rest of diffs has the same concept in jumps and patterns
19:53 Natsu: nop
19:53 Natsu: I just said if is a MUST i'll change, but I prefer my way
19:53 Bakari: so, essentially, you changed things just because you were told to 
19:53 Bakari: and not because you GENUINELY wanted to improve the map? 
19:53 Natsu: yes

First of all, I would really appreciate if you could post the logs, so we all could see clearly what kind of things were discussed and what points were brought up. This kind of things should be kept open to the public, if you expect more opinions to be posted.

Once we see the logs, we all could actually have a meaningful conversation about the map, as this way we could have a better understanding of the concers.

Last edited by riffy 2017-05-09T14:58:24+00:00, edited 5 times in total.

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-09T14:49:23+00:00

I uploaded both versions of my diff, since many people think my original one was better and me too, btw the concept of the diff is the same concept at my other 52 ranked maps and 100 gd, symmetry, clean patterns and vocals rhythm
yesterday I kinda almost give up with my interpretation and map, I was above to remove the diff, but thanks too cxu and bakari I realized that every diff in this map follows the same concept, also I realize that why I need to change my interpretation of the song when I have a lot of support from the community?

riffy

osu! Alumni

8,060 posts

Joined December 2010

riffy 2017-05-09T15:05:25+00:00

I believe that the changes (both pre and post Disqualification ones) should be applied only when the mapper genuinely agrees with them and only when they actually meant to improve the mapset. Which, apparently, was not the case in this situation. The best case scenario is to back to the initial version that was qualified and openly explain things in detail.

In case any of you are willing to have a better idea of the changes made, Natsu has uploaded the older and more recent version to compare. I can also provide the old osz from the pre-qualification period. Link

Syph

848 posts

Joined August 2014

Syph 2017-05-09T15:14:00+00:00

I personally think Irre and Mao are somewhat overthinking this, the patterns mentioned (especially the back-and-forth pattern as it seems to be the real problem here) are not as hard as they look in the editor, since they flow nicely they aren't that hard to play. Natsu has given a pretty good explanation for it too, so I don't see why it's such a big problem honestly.

Irreversible wrote:
I've adjusted some things, and the SR will drop a bit but it's still definitely in the proper range this map is supposed to be - in case you care about SR (which you should not in this case)

Also want to point out that if there's anyone here caring about the sr, it's Irre.. lol

Dustice

133 posts

Joined March 2011

Dustice 2017-05-09T15:32:31+00:00

00:50:569 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - In terms of playability these back and forth jumps are completely reasonable imo.
It doesnt throw me off at all and works well with the rest of the map in terms of flow,
as it has a lot of back and forths in different iterations.

WORSTPOLACKEU

511 posts

Joined May 2013

WORSTPOLACKEU 2017-05-09T17:03:29+00:00

Just because one or two people do not disagree with the back n forth jumps doesn't mean you should be forced to removed it to those triangle jumps you have right now.. the back n forth was as I said before the most meaningful part in the map which you will remember the map by and as CXu said, they are the defining parts of the map...
If the spacing is the problem you can fix that but I hope certain people will show more understanding towards this.

Rafis

Former osu! Champion: 2017

15 posts

Joined April 2013

Rafis 2017-05-09T17:07:03+00:00

In my opinion, new triangle jump section makes this map look really generic. I honestly liked it more with back and forths in terms of playability

Skubi

841 posts

Joined December 2013

Skubi 2017-05-09T17:07:37+00:00

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:
Just because one or two people do not disagree with the back n forth jumps doesn't mean you should be forced to removed it to those triangle jumps you have right now.. the back n forth was as I said before the most meaningful part in the map which you will remember the map by and as CXu said, they are the defining parts of the map...
If the spacing is the problem you can fix that but I hope certain people will show more understanding towards this.

I agree, before changes, this map was unique, but now its just.. generic... I think you should consider rollback..

Irreversible

osu! Alumni

4,315 posts

Joined December 2011

Irreversible 2017-05-09T20:33:47+00:00

I agree that the map has simply lost its flavour now, and I never supported a change towards this way. The map should stay unique, hence why (as I've mentioned 300 times now) certain patterns should stay, but there must be a way found to make them fit to the intensity of the song as well.

Left right? Fine with me. Incredibly high spacing, whereas compared to the rest it just doesn't make that much sense to exaggerate? Not fine with me.

Natsu, that's what I have told you ingame, instead of blindly fixing stuff just so it's "compromised" or "fixed" just doesn't work. I am sure you can keep your ideas while executing them in a way it fits the song better (in this case just a more balanced jump because the song doesn't offer such a spike? it's really not that hard to understand).

About the comment whether something is too difficult to play or not, this is from my point of view irrelevant because even if it doesn't play too hard, that doesn't mean it's simply perfect.

About me caring about SR, no. I agree it was slightly stupid to write but sometimes I do get the feeling that writing such things calms the people down (because certain actions just make me think it was done to push the SR). Apologies if I was assuming something.

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-09T20:48:42+00:00

But all the people I asked said the ma does fit the song, the spacing is subjective, let's put an example this map inferno, your 8 star map etc all they have spikes where the mappers subjectively think the spike should be. The spikes of the map are consistent in the parts of the song that I believe they should be, you can say that is subjective, but also your opinion is subjective. If everyone tell me that it doesn't fit the song I'd change it, but as you can see most of the people involved in the discussion do agree with me. So I think if there are people who agree with me it should be fine. Because what opinion matters the more, yours, mine the mapper, the community? I've been almost the full day asking to mappers and they told me that it does fit the song and the spacing is fine, the other important point is you can see that even top players ( the target audience of my map) support the spacing and pattern, so if I the mapper and the target audience believe is fine what's the problem? I think you are focusing much on the SR and the spacing in the editor, cxu already explained it better than me, the first back and forth jumps make the huge ones play naturally, I really hope I can convince you to keep the unique and integrity of the map.

Okoratu

Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator

4,913 posts

Joined May 2012

Okoratu 2017-05-09T21:41:08+00:00

my 2c

spacing is to a high degree objectively measurable, as in i think the spikes in them weren't organized that well and in ways that don't really reflect music all too well because stuff such as 00:51:469 (7,8,1) - 01:53:869 (7,8,1) - implies a huge spike in intensity comparatively to the rest of the pattern yet the song doesn't do much to support this

how easily the pattern plays wasn't questioned, the question was how much sense the pattern itself makes so saying but it plays well is just dodging the point lol

Natsu

8,074 posts

Joined September 2012

Topic Starter

Natsu 2017-05-09T21:55:14+00:00

Okorin wrote:
my 2c

spacing is to a high degree objectively measurable, as in i think the spikes in them weren't organized that well and in ways that don't really reflect music all too well because stuff such as 00:51:469 (7,8,1) - 01:53:869 (7,8,1) - implies a huge spike in intensity comparatively to the rest of the pattern yet the song doesn't do much to support this

how easily the pattern plays wasn't questioned, the question was how much sense the pattern itself makes so saying but it plays well is just dodging the point lol

I questioned the players about the spacing and if does fit the song, their response was that it does fit the song and also they told me that the spacing doesn't even feels high in the actual gameplay.

I'm the one who hear this song the most, so in my understand these both sections are the ones that have the more emphasis in the song, the song is a 200 bpm poprock song, things like haitai has the same jumps with less emphasis.

So what I want to know is, if I have the support from the most part of the comunity (the target audience of the map) and my strong opinion about them, what I should do in order to rank my map, I meant I already explained here: p/5998172 why these jumps should be bigger, in short 1,2,3,4,5,6 are the back and forth jumps that have 3,0 spacing (we can see that spacing everywhere in the map), 7 and 8 are stronger than these beats (on my end) that's why they have bigger spacing and 1 is the next pattern that does have a stronger sound than the other ones.

Cxu explained here: p/5998426 why they don't even feels that big, wostpolak, rafis, dustice, enon, leaf etc also agreed with it

also don't said objectvely, because is not, the spacing you use in any map is subjective as well, i can link you a lot of maps, inferno, mazzerin 9 star map, irre 8 stars, haitai that overuse high spacing, yet those maps has a lot of complains and are still ranked, my map uses the big jumps consistently in the parts of the songs I believe should be like that.

I was unsure about my own choices with the map, that's why I uploaded both diffs and went to ask to mappers and top players and they tell me that my original map is a lot better and more close to the song than the nerfed one.

so finally we have the mapper feeling strong about his representation of the song, the target audience of the map telling that the pattern doesn't feels overspaced, why I should change it?

Okoratu

Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator

4,913 posts

Joined May 2012

Okoratu 2017-05-09T22:03:19+00:00

if you half assedly address the issue of course people will tell you that your original is better?

you aren't even talking about the point raised but something entirely different right now

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Dreamcatcher - Chase Me

Xexxar wrote:

fieryrage wrote:

CXu wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

CXu wrote:

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

Natsu wrote:

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

Mao wrote:

Natsu wrote:

Irreversible wrote:

WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:

Okorin wrote:

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