Just because you ignore all the tvsize and short version maps doesn't mean they are not there. Open your eyes please.Aqo wrote:
Guest diffs don't grow on trees.
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[Rule Change] Approval Drain Time
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Do I need to repeat myself? It is exactly BECAUSE they are TV size ops that they get guest diffs.
There is a HUGE difference between trying to rank a 1:30 minute anime op and a 2:30-4:00 minute technical song where a single difficulty has more objects in it than an entire TV OP mapset.
Calling mappers lazy is a huge insult when they are in fact putting twice the effort into their maps and yet then being forced to do even MORE.
Tell me, why are mapsets not forced to have IN/EX in their spread? Why is ES/NM enough for rank? Now THAT'S laziness.
There is a HUGE difference between trying to rank a 1:30 minute anime op and a 2:30-4:00 minute technical song where a single difficulty has more objects in it than an entire TV OP mapset.
Calling mappers lazy is a huge insult when they are in fact putting twice the effort into their maps and yet then being forced to do even MORE.
Tell me, why are mapsets not forced to have IN/EX in their spread? Why is ES/NM enough for rank? Now THAT'S laziness.
There is absolutely no difference when trying to rank a map. The only issue is getting decent mods if the song is long.
If you want my honest opinion on the matter, I would say that everyone who maps only one diff and then wants this rule changed is very selfish. Why? Because instead of doing things to get the map ranked, they want the whole world to adapt to their work. The world does not work this way. Deal with it.
Also ES+NM is not enough for rank. Please stop talking nonsense.
Explain how is not lazy to not map the full spread. Until I get an explanation that will convince me, I will not change my mind.Aqo wrote:
Calling mappers lazy is a huge insult when they are in fact putting twice the effort into their maps and yet then being forced to do even MORE.
If you want my honest opinion on the matter, I would say that everyone who maps only one diff and then wants this rule changed is very selfish. Why? Because instead of doing things to get the map ranked, they want the whole world to adapt to their work. The world does not work this way. Deal with it.
Also ES+NM is not enough for rank. Please stop talking nonsense.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/75938lolcubes wrote:
Also ES+NM is not enough for rank. Please stop talking nonsense.
my bad, NM/HD
ok really, I want to understand
you can seriously call this not lazy http://osu.ppy.sh/s/70484 (entire mapset, 241 objects, two diffs, RANKABLE!?)
and yet at the same time say somebody who wants to rank a 3 minute EX with 1200 objects is lazy?
just wow
And if we go by this,
"if your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be insane"
that's the dumbest thing ever
NM/HD is fine but EX/EX isn't? SORRY WHAT
Let me state something and I hope you'll agree with me.lolcubes wrote:
Explain how is not lazy to not map the full spread. Until I get an explanation that will convince me, I will not change my mind.Aqo wrote:
Calling mappers lazy is a huge insult when they are in fact putting twice the effort into their maps and yet then being forced to do even MORE.
Laziness is relative.
It is always possible to put more effort into a mapset. Even if it has 7 diffs, you can make an 8th one. Add an SB, a skin, taikos, etc. There is no level for absolute perfection for amount of effort to be put into a mapset.
Because of this, whether somebody is lazy or not should always be compared to someone else.
The longer a song is, the harder it is to make a full map for it that doesn't become repetitive and boring. This requires extra effort.
A 3 minute map is not twice harder to map than a 1:30 minute map, it's at least 4 times as hard.
Lower diffs are pretty straightforward, you can loosely follow the song's metronome tick with beats and snap everything into distance snap. This requires very little effort to do, and results in a rankable lowdiff. I won't call it good, but it's rankable.
People who map EX diffs tend to not be contempt with rankable, and they actually try to make the best map ever, a map that will have replay value. This requires thinking about original patterns, and yet a ton of thinking about design and flow to make them work right, this is a ton of extra effort compared to mapping a lowdiff.
When those people are told to make a lowdiff, they have a problem.
Either make it half assed, the same as lowdiffs that really do get ranked, but that's just disgusting.
Or make it a high quality map yet a lowdiff one, which is a ton of extra padded effort, on top of ALREADY HAVING DONE MORE than other maps that FOR SOME REASON ARE ALLOWED TO GET RANKED.
Is it laziness? no.
Why is approval now exclusive to Marathon maps only? I thought the entire point of Approval was a category for good maps that didn't quite fit the ranking criteria, like amount of difficulties.
IMO, this new rule is a bit stupid. Lots of great maps are now being graveyarded because they aren't following some arbitrary, unfun restriction.
IMO, this new rule is a bit stupid. Lots of great maps are now being graveyarded because they aren't following some arbitrary, unfun restriction.
Because for the simple but very smart reason because there is no Insane needed. Or the person itself isn't good at mapping Insanes? And then he/she ask someone to do the Insane Diff which means that the person is still 'lazy' because the person isn't able to do a good Insane.Aqo wrote:
Tell me, why are mapsets not forced to have IN/EX in their spread? Why is ES/NM enough for rank? Now THAT'S laziness.
Because if the Map is purposed for the normal ranked Mode you need a lower Diff for not-so-good-Player.Aqo wrote:
NM/HD is fine but EX/EX isn't? SORRY WHAT
I'll be fine with the current rules if all maps were forced to have a full EZ/NM/HD/IN/EX spread, and anything below that was unrankable.
Right now the rules are highly supporting of NM/HD, which is MAXIMUM LAZINESS, and being unfair to everybody else.
Except an EZ/NM/HD/IN/EX for a 1:30 minute low bpm song is still less than 5th of the work compared to a 3 minute high bpm EZ/NM/HD/IN/EX song.
Want mappers to not be lazy? Force a rule that mapsets need to have at least 2000 objects across their spread in total, or else they're unrankable.
Right now the rules are highly supporting of NM/HD, which is MAXIMUM LAZINESS, and being unfair to everybody else.
Except an EZ/NM/HD/IN/EX for a 1:30 minute low bpm song is still less than 5th of the work compared to a 3 minute high bpm EZ/NM/HD/IN/EX song.
Want mappers to not be lazy? Force a rule that mapsets need to have at least 2000 objects across their spread in total, or else they're unrankable.
You're really thinking that everyone is able to do these Diff Spreads, not? ;DAqo wrote:
I'll be fine with the current rules if all maps were forced to have a full EZ/NM/HD/IN/EX spread, and anything below that was unrankable.
Right now the rules are highly supporting of NM/HD, which is MAXIMUM LAZINESS, and being unfair to everybody else.
It's not your choice if Mapsets with Normal/Hard should be ranked or not, so stop force yourself as something like the "Chooser".
Why are NM/HD rankableStefan wrote:
It's not your choice if Mapsets with Normal/Hard should be ranked or not, so stop force yourself as something like the "Chooser".
but IN/EX or EX/EX not?
What makes the first one better for rank?
Sorry but let me be very blunt,
Your statement is just stupid as hell.
If EX mappers are forced to make NM diffs that they don't want to, then NM mappers should be forced to make EX diffs as well. Why is one side, which is the lazy one by default, allowed to be lazy, while the hardworking side is forced to work even harder?
We don't need a "Chooser", make it the same for everyone. Why is one side getting special treatment.
Aqo wrote:
Why are NM/HD rankableStefan wrote:
It's not your choice if Mapsets with Normal/Hard should be ranked or not, so stop force yourself as something like the "Chooser".
but IN/EX or EX/EX not?
Hi.Stefan wrote:
Because if the Map is purposed for the normal ranked Mode you need a lower Diff for not-so-good-Player.
Says who?Stefan wrote:
Hi.Stefan wrote:
Because if the Map is purposed for the normal ranked Mode you need a lower Diff for not-so-good-Player.
if the map is "purposed" for the normal ranked mode you need a higher diff for adept-long-time-Player.
There, I can throw statements too. It's not any different.
...wow. So people aren't able to take HR or DT in the Hard Diff?Aqo wrote:
if the map is "purposed" for the normal ranked mode you need a higher diff for adept-long-time-Player.
Sorry but what are you trying to do here? To force people to make more Diffs? Because Two-Diff-Mapsets are half-assed and made without effort?
Oh god I fell on the floor laughingStefan wrote:
Sorry but what are you trying to do here? To force people to make more Diffs?
/thread
can't stop laughing.
fact is, almost no 1-diff-insane-map is "special" or "gimmicky". they are just normal insanes or extras, and because it's always possible to make an easy diff, those maps are not rankable nor approveable.Teraku wrote:
Why is approval now exclusive to Marathon maps only? I thought the entire point of Approval was a category for good maps that didn't quite fit the ranking criteria, like amount of difficulties.
IMO, this new rule is a bit stupid. Lots of great maps are now being graveyarded because they aren't following some arbitrary, unfun restriction.
mapping only one diff shouldn't be the common mindset of mappers. if they have a song they want to map, they should think about a whole diffspread, not only an insane or extra. if you're not willing to map a whole diffspread, then don't expect a rank and stop bitching about it. maps don't need to be ranked to be enjoyed. ranks have the purpose of spreading the map to the wider public. if there is no diffspread, then the majority of the playerbase won't find any enjoyment in it.
for the other problem of boring easies/normals: mappers have to learn how to make these. an easy or normal diff should be mapped in a way that it leads towards the hard, which leads towards the insane. in an optimal case, the diffs in a mapset give you the same feeling. if the insane had a jumpy feeling, then the easy should feel jumpy in comparison too.
tl;dr: don't argue every single rule just because your mapset or a mapset you like is affected by it in a negative way. don't try to change the rules, but try to change your approach towards things.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44481 yeeee he is totally a laziaaaass because he made only two diffs but we don't care about the Storyboard because people are disable SBs because they can't play with them.
Sad but Ai's Map is the same case.
Sad but Ai's Map is the same case.
what Aqo is trying to say is that it is unfair. If EX mappers have to make low diffs, low-diff mappers should make EX diffs too.
if this full mapset thing is a rule IT SHOULD BE REALLY A FULL MAPSET. Not only lowdiffs.
Anyways, the topic is about approving songs under 6:00 draintime, not about difficulty spread.
edit: IT IS TOTALLY OK mapping easier diffs for the mapset, the problem is MAPPING THEM WHEN THE SONG IS LONG/REPETITIVE and TO GET MODS FOR IT.
Stay on topic please.
if this full mapset thing is a rule IT SHOULD BE REALLY A FULL MAPSET. Not only lowdiffs.
Anyways, the topic is about approving songs under 6:00 draintime, not about difficulty spread.
edit: IT IS TOTALLY OK mapping easier diffs for the mapset, the problem is MAPPING THEM WHEN THE SONG IS LONG/REPETITIVE and TO GET MODS FOR IT.
Stay on topic please.
mapping two-three lowdiffs for a cut version of a song to make it shorter shouldn't be the common mindset of mappers. if they have a song they want to map, they should map the full version of the song, and think about a whole spread, not only a normal or hard. if you're not willing to map a full song and with a whole diffspread, thenTanzklaue wrote:
mapping only one diff shouldn't be the common mindset of mappers. if they have a song they want to map, they should think about a whole diffspread, not only an insane or extra. if you're not willing to map a whole diffspread, then don't expect a rank and stop bitching about it. maps don't need to be ranked to be enjoyed. ranks have the purpose of spreading the map to the wider public. if there is no diffspread, then the majority of the playerbase won't find any enjoyment in it.
oh wait.
Everyone is allowed to ask other people for lower Diffs? Because for this that the person takes care to get lower Diffs (whether Guest Diff or your own Diff) you cannot call this lazy. If you do then please think about it twice.[Luanny] wrote:
what Aqo is trying to say is that it is unfair. If EX mappers have to make low diffs, low-diff mappers should make EX diffs too.
Cool how Hard Diffs are low now.[Luanny] wrote:
if this full mapset thing is a rule IT SHOULD BE REALLY A FULL MAPSET. Not only lowdiffs.
I wanted to clear my statement what I think about Aqo's mind. Oh, and I didn't started this discussion about Diff Spreads.[Luanny] wrote:
Anyways, the topic is about approving songs under 6:00 draintime, not about difficulty spread.
Just to make something clear, there is a reason this topic exists and keeps coming up
previous approval system was fine
this new one isn't
6 minute limit is wrong, but the solution isn't to make the limit shorter, it's to change the core of the ranking system
which is downright flawed at the moment and is heavily unfair to mappers. Not only that this stops mappers from even trying to rank their maps, it stops them from making certain maps to begin with, because they know they'll have no chance of getting it ranked.
I'd rather see one full-song 4/5-diff spread for an anime op song (the full version of the song, that is), instead of five mapsets for the TV size of that song with only 3 diffs per mapset that all play pretty much the exact same.
previous approval system was fine
this new one isn't
6 minute limit is wrong, but the solution isn't to make the limit shorter, it's to change the core of the ranking system
which is downright flawed at the moment and is heavily unfair to mappers. Not only that this stops mappers from even trying to rank their maps, it stops them from making certain maps to begin with, because they know they'll have no chance of getting it ranked.
I'd rather see one full-song 4/5-diff spread for an anime op song (the full version of the song, that is), instead of five mapsets for the TV size of that song with only 3 diffs per mapset that all play pretty much the exact same.
oh, now I understand the main discussionAqo wrote:
Just to make something clear, there is a reason this topic exists and keeps coming up
previous approval system was fine
this new one isn't
6 minute limit is wrong, but the solution isn't to make the limit shorter, it's to change the core of the ranking system
which is downright flawed at the moment
at this point, you're right
but I don't think we can reach this lol
the 6 minute approval rule created a mindset in mappers that "the longer the song you pick is, the less likely you are to rank it".
This isn't an illusion. it's truth and everybody knows it.
Having rules like this in place leads mappers to be lazy and make lower quality maps.
"people won't do stuff unless you force them"
ha.
like communism, it's cute in theory but doesn't work in practice.
What you wanted: People will start mapping more diffs for their 3 minute songs! yay!
Reality: People start mapping 1:30 minute songs instead of 3 minute ones! or they omit high diffs for long songs! yy....NAY!
If lolcubes returns to this thread, I'd like him to explain why did he choose to map the full song of Hades the Rise https://osu.ppy.sh/s/33911 back in 2011, and yet he mapped doukoku in 2013 as a short ver https://osu.ppy.sh/s/71200
and why is destudo https://osu.ppy.sh/s/46349 which is a very good IN/EX that could be ranked months ago graveyarded now instead?
coincidence?
and then you have the nerve to call others lazy?
nothing against you man but be real on this. the current rules do no good. they don't give players more diffs, they take away potential diffs from getting ranked and discourage mappers from putting effort into creating great maps.
and YES all of this is ON TOPIC. The 6 minute rule is the core of the problem.
This isn't an illusion. it's truth and everybody knows it.
Having rules like this in place leads mappers to be lazy and make lower quality maps.
"people won't do stuff unless you force them"
ha.
like communism, it's cute in theory but doesn't work in practice.
What you wanted: People will start mapping more diffs for their 3 minute songs! yay!
Reality: People start mapping 1:30 minute songs instead of 3 minute ones! or they omit high diffs for long songs! yy....NAY!
If lolcubes returns to this thread, I'd like him to explain why did he choose to map the full song of Hades the Rise https://osu.ppy.sh/s/33911 back in 2011, and yet he mapped doukoku in 2013 as a short ver https://osu.ppy.sh/s/71200
and why is destudo https://osu.ppy.sh/s/46349 which is a very good IN/EX that could be ranked months ago graveyarded now instead?
coincidence?
and then you have the nerve to call others lazy?
nothing against you man but be real on this. the current rules do no good. they don't give players more diffs, they take away potential diffs from getting ranked and discourage mappers from putting effort into creating great maps.
and YES all of this is ON TOPIC. The 6 minute rule is the core of the problem.
about the "you shouldn't map only because you want more ranked maps"
some players just IGNORE pending/grave maps
only caring about the ranked ones
if I map something, I want it to be enjoyed
if I want people to enjoy my map I will want to rank it
it's simple like this
if I want to map something only for myself I won't ever submit it and problem solved
I think it's not the case for the majority of the mappers
some players just IGNORE pending/grave maps
only caring about the ranked ones
if I map something, I want it to be enjoyed
if I want people to enjoy my map I will want to rank it
it's simple like this
if I want to map something only for myself I won't ever submit it and problem solved
I think it's not the case for the majority of the mappers
Topic Starter
It seems that people lack knowledge of feelings.
It's simple, the reason why I care about getting my maps ranked, is because it gives an extra feel of satisfaction, I can watch how people are enjoying it and on top of that, that even MORE people will enjoy it. Graveyarded maps will never be found as 95% of osu is just browsing trough the ranked maps.
It's simple, the reason why I care about getting my maps ranked, is because it gives an extra feel of satisfaction, I can watch how people are enjoying it and on top of that, that even MORE people will enjoy it. Graveyarded maps will never be found as 95% of osu is just browsing trough the ranked maps.
^EXACTLY this
you didn't had to color them, I am not stupid.Aqo wrote:
mapping two-three lowdiffs for a cut version of a song to make it shorter shouldn't be the common mindset of mappers. if they have a song they want to map, they should map the full version of the song, and think about a whole spread, not only a normal or hard. if you're not willing to map a full song and with a whole diffspread, thenTanzklaue wrote:
mapping only one diff shouldn't be the common mindset of mappers. if they have a song they want to map, they should think about a whole diffspread, not only an insane or extra. if you're not willing to map a whole diffspread, then don't expect a rank and stop bitching about it. maps don't need to be ranked to be enjoyed. ranks have the purpose of spreading the map to the wider public. if there is no diffspread, then the majority of the playerbase won't find any enjoyment in it.don't expect a rank.
oh wait.
N/H is a rankable diffspread by definition. I/EX isn't. the reason for that is so people map easier diffs and not just one diff, which happens to be a insane. this makes sense, since it would be a problem for new players if only a very low amount of people actually mapped something they can play.
so, the majority now maps easier diffs. now some people want to rank maps without easier diffs. the staff again defined a border of 6 minutes. if your song is longer than that, then you don't need to make easier diffs, because it would be a lot of work for mappers and modders alike. however, it's still prefered if you map easier diffs despite it being more annoying and more tedious to rank.
if your song is under this border, which was defined previously, you have to map easier diffs. even if you're one second under this border, you have to do it. this makes sure that -again- most maps will have easier diffs in there spread, so new players don't have to suffer.
so why aren't you forced to map harder difficulties? well, the hardest diff of a map normally is what is the maximum the mapper could get out of the song both difficultywise and qualitywise. if this diff happens to be a normal, then this is fine. forcing a mapper to map a harder diff than that will most likely end in a bad diff which is just an overmapped version of the previously hardest diff. on the other hand, making easier diffs should be always possible if the lowest diff in your mapset happens to be an insane.
I hope this is understandable. like I said, rules are there to make things controlled. they are the most objective standards we have, and following them should be the least thing somebody should expect for a rank. which doesn't mean that rankability is everything, but it is the least you have to have.
Admins/BATs don't understand that most mappers aren't lazy. We all want to make maps and rank them but this 6 minute time for approval is bullshit. I don't want to be forced to make diffs for a song that is 5 minutes long. Most people don't even accept modding songs for draining time over 5 minutes. Approval should be made for people who are making creative and very extreme maps. Not maps that are 6 minutes and over in drain time, its pointless. This rule has no point, it does nothing but limit the freedom of mappers in where all mappers should be free to make what they want. Something the BATs and Admins have been falling down on, most people have forced themselves to map Japanese usually (TV Sized) or (Short Ver.) maps because they don't want to deal with trying to map something over 6 minutes, something that may not get approved because like I said before, most people won't mod something that long. RLC's The Pretender map is a special case. He has pro players test the map in secret, he had BATs and MATs closely watch it and help him get it approved. Not all BATs and MATs want to be involved in something like that all the time because then they would have requests for mods and help for speed ranking all the time. The approval system is already broken enough, adding this shitty rule on top of it is not doing it anymore justice than it was before.
Just my 0.02 cents.
TL;DR: Approval system is already broken, lets not break it more.
Just my 0.02 cents.
TL;DR: Approval system is already broken, lets not break it more.
it doesn't make senseTanzklaue wrote:
N/H is a rankable diffspread by definition. I/EX isn't. the reason for that is so people map easier diffs and not just one diff, which happens to be a insane. this makes sense, since it would be a problem for new players if only a very low amount of people actually mapped something they can play.
new players already have a selection of over 7000 maps to play.
By the time they'll play less than 300 of those they'll already be good enough to start playing higher diffs
Meanwhile the long-time players, who are not just come-and-go players that stay for a month and quit, are being neglected and don't get the maps they want to compete on ranked.
The whole ranking system exists for competition and the most competitive players are being neglected. what.
it doesn't make sense at all.
When I was a beginner, seeing approved maps for songs that I liked motivated me to try harder to play better. I wasn't sad that they lack a lowdiff, I was happy that such great maps exist, and their existence pushed me to play more.
The recent best map of 2012 voting proved that most people's favorite maps are the hardest ones. Even that less than 300 people can play freedom dive and less than 3000 people can play mythologia, those maps were far on top of the rankings. What does this tell us? People WANT those maps. People LOVE them and they don't care about the absence of lowdiffs on them.
I personally know a ton of beginner players who love playing mythologia with nofail, way more than they like playing random [Normal]s.
People rather have one amazing memorable map than 5 average maps that are forgettable a week after getting ranked.
And the amount of those memorable maps has been on decline ever since the approval rules changed.
Aqo I love you
Aqo, I love you. I have excatly the same opinion on this matter like you, but you can explain it so much better. Thank you for doing this! <3
Edit: lol, Luanny
Edit: lol, Luanny
"hey let's make a rule where users have to suffer to rank long maps, however if they try to, we will say it's their fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
BAT logic at its best.
BAT logic at its best.
Aqo wrote:
it doesn't make sense Yup, for you. Because every damn person need to have the same sight as you. And this is really annoying.Tanzklaue wrote:
N/H is a rankable diffspread by definition. I/EX isn't. the reason for that is so people map easier diffs and not just one diff, which happens to be a insane. this makes sense, since it would be a problem for new players if only a very low amount of people actually mapped something they can play.
new players already have a selection of over 7000 maps to play. What a retarded argument.
By the time they'll play less than 300 of those they'll already be good enough to start playing higher diffs And you think 300 must be always for everyone fine? Oh I forgot, you're telling how YOU are see that.
Meanwhile the long-time players, who are not just come-and-go players that stay for a month and quit, are being neglected and don't get the maps they want to compete on ranked. Then these people could learn to map their own stuff or to offer themselves as Guest Mapper.
The whole ranking system exists for competition and the most competitive players are being neglected. what.
it doesn't make sense at all. It does.. but yeah you know.
LOOOOOL
experienced players already have a selection of over 7000 maps to play from. nobody has played every single one of them.Aqo wrote:
it doesn't make senseTanzklaue wrote:
N/H is a rankable diffspread by definition. I/EX isn't. the reason for that is so people map easier diffs and not just one diff, which happens to be a insane. this makes sense, since it would be a problem for new players if only a very low amount of people actually mapped something they can play.
new players already have a selection of over 7000 maps to play.
By the time they'll play less than 300 of those they'll already be good enough to start playing higher diffs
Meanwhile the long-time players, who are not just come-and-go players that stay for a month and quit, are being neglected and don't get the maps they want to compete on ranked.
The whole ranking system exists for competition and the most competitive players are being neglected. what.
it doesn't make sense at all.
let's stop ranking new maps until everybody played every map that was ranked until now, or else the competition is heavily flawed.
also the people neglecting the most competitive players are the mappers who refuse to make their maps rankable. this starts with refusing to make easier diffs and goes on with never accepting anything any modder ever says because "it's my map, not yours, and I don't want to change it, fuck you kthxbye". tbut that is off topic.
The problem isn't exactly mapping, it's getting mods. BATs like to blame mappers for something they're not faulty of, which is gathering mods for long songs. NO ONE wants to mod a 4-diff 5 minute map, and that's just stupid.
Nah, like Aqo cares about this Fact.Tanzklaue wrote:
experienced players already have a selection of over 7000 maps to play from. nobody has played every single one of them.
Wow, a personal attack. Great job there. I will ignore this actually because I just dunno what to say. For those really interested, feel free to ask me, however I will not respond here because it's offtopic.Aqo wrote:
If lolcubes returns to this thread, I'd like him to explain why did he choose to map the full song of Hades the Rise https://osu.ppy.sh/s/33911 back in 2011, and yet he mapped doukoku in 2013 as a short ver https://osu.ppy.sh/s/71200
and why is destudo https://osu.ppy.sh/s/46349 which is a very good IN/EX that could be ranked months ago graveyarded now instead?
coincidence?
and then you have the nerve to call others lazy?
nothing against you man but be real on this. the current rules do no good. they don't give players more diffs, they take away potential diffs from getting ranked and discourage mappers from putting effort into creating great maps.
and YES all of this is ON TOPIC. The 6 minute rule is the core of the problem.
Wow if you can't find the flaw here then I really dunno what to say. This will be my last post in this thread. You are very good at creating bandwagons, so I guess good luck with this, because your points aren't really valid.Aqo wrote:
The recent best map of 2012 voting proved that most people's favorite maps are the hardest ones. Even that less than 300 people can play freedom dive and less than 3000 people can play mythologia, those maps were far on top of the rankings. What does this tell us? People WANT those maps. People LOVE them and they don't care about the absence of lowdiffs on them.
I am not blaming the mappers for not getting mods on their maps, I am blaming them for not mapping their maps. There is a difference. I do agree that it's very hard to get mods, but that's another problem, and that problem will not go away sadly. The only reliable way that I know of, to get mods on such maps, is to actually use #modreqs often, and ask a lot of people to playtest your map and post their opinions and results in the thread. Techincal aspects such as timing, metadata, and other technical stuff are usually unified in all diffs so that makes such things easier.Blue Dragon wrote:
The problem isn't exactly mapping, it's getting mods. BATs like to blame mappers for something they're not faulty of, which is gathering mods for long songs. NO ONE wants to mod a 4-diff 5 minute map, and that's just stupid.
There are less than 100 truly challenging maps that are ranked.Tanzklaue wrote:
experienced players already have a selection of over 7000 maps to play from. nobody has played every single one of them.
I've played every single one of them.
So has any single player who plays this game and enjoys those maps.
You always see the same names in the top 400 of those maps. It's not some hidden truth.
Why did this post get ignored?Teraku wrote:
Why is approval now exclusive to Marathon maps only? I thought the entire point of Approval was a category for good maps that didn't quite fit the ranking criteria, like amount of difficulties.
IMO, this new rule is a bit stupid. Lots of great maps are now being graveyarded because they aren't following some arbitrary, unfun restriction.
I also love how no one told this, BATs just said so and now it's true!
Blue Dragon wrote:
"hey let's make a rule where users have to suffer to rank long maps, however if they try to, we will say it's their fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
I would instantly map lowdiffs for my map if I knew that it would get ranked.lolcubes wrote:
I am not blaming the mappers for not getting mods on their maps, I am blaming them for not mapping their maps.
But I KNOW it won't
so why waste time on it?
The words I just spoke for myself, are true for countless mappers out there.
However, I admit I'm not a very good mapper
There are some pro mappers out there who make AMAZING maps with FULL MAP SPREADS https://osu.ppy.sh/s/47599 https://osu.ppy.sh/s/59025
and guess what, it's always either
>song too long
>too many diffs
>nobody wants to mod all of that
>pending for months
>graveyarded
WOW, good job ranking system! Good maps = unrankable. Amazing.
Topic Starter
[Luanny] wrote:
Blue Dragon wrote:
"hey let's make a rule where users have to suffer to rank long maps, however if they try to, we will say it's their fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Whether or not good maps shorter than 6:00 with one dfifficulty are approvable, they certainly deserve better than being in the graveyard underneath a pile of My First Beatmaps and abandoned WIPs. If approval's not right for them, there needs to be some other way to help them reach the audience they were intended for.
And kind of off topic:
And kind of off topic:
I'd like to see this elaborated on in the ranking criteria... I've kind of got a map that could benefit from some clarification on this. Right now there's no mention of such an exception at all.Sakura wrote:
The exception is for gimmick maps like ziin's Osuka
I support this 100%
Please get rid of this ridiculous rule.
Please get rid of this ridiculous rule.
huehuehue
post of the year plsSieg wrote:
huehuehue
FTFY.Blue Dragon wrote:
"hey let's make a rule where users have to suffer to rank long maps, however if they try to, we will say it's their fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
BATs in a nutshell.
The community seems to forget one important fact: while we want to rank your maps, having your maps ranked is a privilege, and not necessarily a right nor a responsibility.
Also, let's stop derailing this thread from its original topic please.
Also, let's stop derailing this thread from its original topic please.
Blaming anyone won't help, but will only create hate.
Try not to insult each other, but to find a solution for this issue. Because, just like Aqo explained, this IS an issue.
Try not to insult each other, but to find a solution for this issue. Because, just like Aqo explained, this IS an issue.
some people seem to think this is ok the way it is nowZarerion wrote:
Blaming anyone won't help, but will only create hate.
Try not to insult each other, but to find a solution for this issue. Because, just like Aqo explained, this IS an issue.
The Approval category was created for maps that had too much score gain so they wouldn't break the rankings, it was never intended for such mapsets to have only hard difficulties, this was for Marathon difficulties only due to their length, but mappers abused this fact by making maps overinsane so it would break the score limit and be able to go with 1 difficulty only.
How it was supposed to work: Marathon Length = 1 diff minimum, no need for easy. Breaks score limit = Make lower difficulties, have a hybrid (ranked with approved diffs) mapset.
Max score is irrelevant nowadays so only long mapsets go for approval now or gimmick maps like ziin's Blythe.
Mappers that decide to take on the challenge to map long songs that don't fit with the Marathon length should be ready to have to work harder to get their mapset ranked, you can always ask modders to only mod part of the mapset (except for MATs and BATs) so that it doesn't become too long for them in the modding queues.
Now hope you understand, but this will not be changing.
How it was supposed to work: Marathon Length = 1 diff minimum, no need for easy. Breaks score limit = Make lower difficulties, have a hybrid (ranked with approved diffs) mapset.
Max score is irrelevant nowadays so only long mapsets go for approval now or gimmick maps like ziin's Blythe.
Mappers that decide to take on the challenge to map long songs that don't fit with the Marathon length should be ready to have to work harder to get their mapset ranked, you can always ask modders to only mod part of the mapset (except for MATs and BATs) so that it doesn't become too long for them in the modding queues.
Now hope you understand, but this will not be changing.
...? It would eventually get ranked at some point if you actually mapped lowdiffs...Aqo wrote:
I would instantly map lowdiffs for my map if I knew that it would get ranked.
And I love how people complain about the ranking system being flawed. You know, it's all about being part of the community.
You complain about some people speedranking their maps, while others have a rough time getting a bubble?
Well guess what, they have friends who support them.
For example Andrea, I'd say he knows like 80% of the osu community and tries to be friendly to everyone.
He knew all of the current MATs and BATs pretty much before they even got that position and was friends with them for a long time. Of course they are more likely to mod and check his map instead of someone who can only complain about the game and be negative.
It's simple.
I understand how you feel calling it unfair.. nobody likes to see a map being ranked in a short amount of time, unless the map was made by one of your friends or so. But this is just how it is, if you keep on complaining you are more likely to be ignored instead of being taken seriously.
If you pick a song for mapping it must mean something special to you, or am I mistaken? Why do you pick exactly THAT song and not something else?
I dont see the big deal in making diffs for 5 minute songs, if you DECIDE to map a 5 min song why cant you bother enough to make more than 1 diff?
As long as the song isn't breakcore or 5minute guitar mashing it's possible to pull it off.
If the song is interesting enough it's not that hard to find people for guest diffs either, you aren't forced to map the whole mapset alone.
Not gonna argue with the point that it's harder to get mods on lengthy songs, because it's true (but if you are serious with your map it's not an impossible task). Also note that this is just one downfall and shouldn't prevent you from mapping the song you choose.
Furthermore I'd like to point out that you shouldnt rush ranks because the map creator is the person who should criticize his/her own maps the most and check on them regularly over time to see if anything needs improvement. Remember, it's important to see that the map is in its best state possible for rank. (For example, if you rush into ranking your map and check on the it a few days later and notice something you would've wanted to design better...)
Finally, this post is not meant to harass or disrespect any person or opinion, just stating my thoughts to this whole matter.
Thanks for your attention ladies and gentlemen.
So there is a forum about "discussing rules" where you can't change them because a BAT said so? This is retarded and ridiculous.Sakura wrote:
Now hope you understand, but this will not be changing.
Saying "it's your fault if you mapped a long song" is just pushing all of the responsibility and blame to the mapper, and this is a horrible behaviour.
Then provide an argument of why should the time be reduced other than "I dont want to map lower difficulties" or "I dont roll that way", i already mentioned how to get around getting mods for lengthy mapsets so what's the issue now?
Getting mods from normal users is something, for MATs is a completely different thing, js.
And I can tell you 90% of people won't even agree to mod only 1 diff of the mapset. Besides that, #modreqs has never worked for me, imagine that in a long song. Also, mod queues are mostly anime/certain country-related and you need luck to be there on the right time and post something. So now you're telling us that the ranking system is about luck?
And I can tell you 90% of people won't even agree to mod only 1 diff of the mapset. Besides that, #modreqs has never worked for me, imagine that in a long song. Also, mod queues are mostly anime/certain country-related and you need luck to be there on the right time and post something. So now you're telling us that the ranking system is about luck?
So you're proposing that it's a problem with the status of the MAT, not a problem with the ranking criteria.Blue Dragon wrote:
Getting mods from normal users is something, for MATs is a completely different thing, js.
Shohei Ohtani
Getting mods is hard, yes, but you have to realize that people have lives too.
The entire thing is community driven. It can be frustrating, yes, but nobody is OBLIGATED to mod these maps.
I have modded almost 500+ worth of kudosu of maps, I know that it's a STRUGGLE. I have given up a LOT of time to look over maps. I've had people waiting for so long to get mods from me, because I have an actual life to deal with. I'm president of a club, PR of another, I'm in various activites, I spend very little time at home, and I have a LOT of other obligations to fill once I'm at home, especially with college coming up. While I do agree that mods ARE hard to get and it is VERY frustrating to not see any mods, it's not entirely just "THE SYSTEM HATES US." Hell, it's worse for me since I'm considered a "forbidden mapper", where I'm part of that border where I'm too experienced to get mods from "noobie revolution" modders but most experienced modders dislike my maps, have a personal vendetta with me, so I can't get mods. But still, for a process where the entire thing is based off of VOLUNTARY SERVICE with NO REWARD, it's pretty nice.
But I read this topic expecting a discussion about approval time, and now we're at this crap. Make a seprate topic if you wish to discuss modding stuff.
And no I didn't read the topic because if this has gotten derailed this far then I'm scared for what else is happening.
The entire thing is community driven. It can be frustrating, yes, but nobody is OBLIGATED to mod these maps.
I have modded almost 500+ worth of kudosu of maps, I know that it's a STRUGGLE. I have given up a LOT of time to look over maps. I've had people waiting for so long to get mods from me, because I have an actual life to deal with. I'm president of a club, PR of another, I'm in various activites, I spend very little time at home, and I have a LOT of other obligations to fill once I'm at home, especially with college coming up. While I do agree that mods ARE hard to get and it is VERY frustrating to not see any mods, it's not entirely just "THE SYSTEM HATES US." Hell, it's worse for me since I'm considered a "forbidden mapper", where I'm part of that border where I'm too experienced to get mods from "noobie revolution" modders but most experienced modders dislike my maps, have a personal vendetta with me, so I can't get mods. But still, for a process where the entire thing is based off of VOLUNTARY SERVICE with NO REWARD, it's pretty nice.
But I read this topic expecting a discussion about approval time, and now we're at this crap. Make a seprate topic if you wish to discuss modding stuff.
And no I didn't read the topic because if this has gotten derailed this far then I'm scared for what else is happening.
Pretty much if you want somewhere you have discuss how long constitutes a Marathon map, since that's what the rule is aimed at.
Here is what I think
Approvals should be relative. There should be no rule about length. It used to be, it has to get over like 20mill or so, and the song could have 1 or 2 diffs.
Now, why make it a set time? There are not many good songs to map over 6 minutes. What if it is 5:58 seconds? You're going to not approve it?
We shouldn't have a SET rule. If it's a 4 minute map that's 240 bpm and high density (eg t+pazo or renard) then it might have more score than something like a long 140 bpm epic that is 7 minutes. If this is simply about score, and not just making it a long thing for the sake of being long, you're going in the wrong direction. You shouldn't limit players creativity. We may never see a great approval map that is only like 5 minutes long with some epic, sweet SB and lots of thought put into it because of this.
The highest ranked map as of now is 4 minutes long and gives 30million score. Is that really not allowed for approval anymore?
I'm sorry if I offend anyone or seem like i'm talking out of my ass, I have given this considerable thought and wanted to make a topic on it myself (though being a taiko mapper), I felt however it would turn into one of these. And I was somewhat right.
But the overall thing i'm trying to say
Approval shouldn't just be a set thing
It should be a thing as a whole.
You cannot compare apples to oranges because all songs and all maps are different.
Approvals should be relative. There should be no rule about length. It used to be, it has to get over like 20mill or so, and the song could have 1 or 2 diffs.
Now, why make it a set time? There are not many good songs to map over 6 minutes. What if it is 5:58 seconds? You're going to not approve it?
We shouldn't have a SET rule. If it's a 4 minute map that's 240 bpm and high density (eg t+pazo or renard) then it might have more score than something like a long 140 bpm epic that is 7 minutes. If this is simply about score, and not just making it a long thing for the sake of being long, you're going in the wrong direction. You shouldn't limit players creativity. We may never see a great approval map that is only like 5 minutes long with some epic, sweet SB and lots of thought put into it because of this.
The highest ranked map as of now is 4 minutes long and gives 30million score. Is that really not allowed for approval anymore?
I'm sorry if I offend anyone or seem like i'm talking out of my ass, I have given this considerable thought and wanted to make a topic on it myself (though being a taiko mapper), I felt however it would turn into one of these. And I was somewhat right.
But the overall thing i'm trying to say
Approval shouldn't just be a set thing
It should be a thing as a whole.
You cannot compare apples to oranges because all songs and all maps are different.
And what's wrong with mapping a spread for a song not over 6 minutes?
It takes TIMEthose wrote:
And what's wrong with mapping a spread for a song not over 6 minutes?
This is not a job, people have real lives outside of osu
Look at the ranking history for maps in this game
An EX with a full spread takes over a year to rank
If I know it will take me longer than two months to rank a map I won't bother mapping it to begin with
if you map to rank maps, then you have the wrong workethic.Aqo wrote:
It takes TIMEthose wrote:
And what's wrong with mapping a spread for a song not over 6 minutes?
This is not a job, people have real lives outside of osu
Look at the ranking history for maps in this game
An EX with a full spread takes over a year to rank
If I know it will take me longer than two months to rank a map I won't bother mapping it to begin with
So why do you think this applies to mapping alone and does not apply to modding?Aqo wrote:
...
People are going off track again...
Topic Starter
-Post Deleted-
@Aqo: I bet mapping a diffspread is still a faster way to get your map ranked than mapping one diff and getting it graved, or complaining about a rule that's most likely not going to change.
And I doubt this rule is as much about laziness as it is about cathering for the majority of players, and really; most of osu!'s userbase consist of casual players. As you said yourself, only the same few players rank in those "top maps loved by the whole community" with far less plays than many other "mediocre" maps. Having more easy diffs than insane ones reflects osu!'s playerbase. And I don't think we have more easy diffs than insane ones anyway, as many maps tend to have 2 insane diffs.
Not mapping a full song isn't necessarily laziness; a repetitive song would not only be boring to map, but boring to play as well, and some people get tired of long maps, and would rather play shorter ones. The ideal length of a map is (throwing out my own opinion here) probably about 2:30 minutes. You always have the option to cut your song if it's repetitive. If it's not, and you believe you can make it fun for it's whole length, then you shouldn't have a problem mapping lower difficulties either.
And to the diffspread issue: some songs need N/H diffspreads, some need E/N/H/I. That's just how it is. Or are you telling me you would map insane for a song like this: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/55790 (my own map because I know it).
Meh, I'm probably pulling up a few of the old topics in this thread, and honestly I don't really know what I'm talking about anymore. Anyhow, can't rank with 1 diff? make 2. Can't rank it with 2? Make 3.
And I doubt this rule is as much about laziness as it is about cathering for the majority of players, and really; most of osu!'s userbase consist of casual players. As you said yourself, only the same few players rank in those "top maps loved by the whole community" with far less plays than many other "mediocre" maps. Having more easy diffs than insane ones reflects osu!'s playerbase. And I don't think we have more easy diffs than insane ones anyway, as many maps tend to have 2 insane diffs.
Not mapping a full song isn't necessarily laziness; a repetitive song would not only be boring to map, but boring to play as well, and some people get tired of long maps, and would rather play shorter ones. The ideal length of a map is (throwing out my own opinion here) probably about 2:30 minutes. You always have the option to cut your song if it's repetitive. If it's not, and you believe you can make it fun for it's whole length, then you shouldn't have a problem mapping lower difficulties either.
And to the diffspread issue: some songs need N/H diffspreads, some need E/N/H/I. That's just how it is. Or are you telling me you would map insane for a song like this: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/55790 (my own map because I know it).
Meh, I'm probably pulling up a few of the old topics in this thread, and honestly I don't really know what I'm talking about anymore. Anyhow, can't rank with 1 diff? make 2. Can't rank it with 2? Make 3.
Let's map Easy/Normal/Hard diffs for Forgotten then, gogo!
funnily enough, forgotten is an calm song. it should work to make decent easier diffs for it.Blue Dragon wrote:
Let's map Easy/Normal/Hard diffs for Forgotten then, gogo!
look at mad machine. 270 BPM speedcore with a full diffspread. it's not impossible to do.
By the way this thread is going seems like you guys should be discussng the min. diff rule and diff spread rules and not the Marathon length rule, so since you guys aren't reading any of the posts in here, better stop this discussion from getting derailed any further.
After a very long road about Approval being a minimum of six minutes, we're going to try out something new. The new rule has been amended to a five minute requirement!
As always, please don't hesitate to throw me a forum PM if you have any questions regarding this change.
Approved Category is only for Marathon maps. Long maps with over 5 minutes of draining time fit the Approval category. Only then they are allowed to be single difficulty mapsets. If they are below 5 minutes of draining time, a full difficulty spread is needed and the map will have to be ranked instead.
As always, please don't hesitate to throw me a forum PM if you have any questions regarding this change.