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New player opinions about the length based spread rule

posted
Total Posts
9

How do you feel about maps with Hard or Insane as the lowest diff (only for songs that are less than 5 minutes long)?

I don't mind having no lower diffs in maps
12
80.00%
I would like to play easier difficulties on those songs
3
20.00%
Total votes: 15
Serizawa Haruki
1,678 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki
I've been wondering how players feel about 3:30 maps that have Hard as the lowest difficulty and 4:15 maps that have Insane as the lowest difficulty, especially newer players who are not able to play higher diffs well yet. A big part of the playerbase are pretty new to the game or don't play frequently so I was thinking that they possibly might want Easy/Normal difficulties in maps of that length (or even Hard diffs in the case of 4:15 songs). If you are aren't able to play Insane/Extra diffs yet, feel free to vote in the poll and to share your opinion in a more detailed way if you want, I'd be interested to hear it.

Edit: A bunch of 4 and 5 digit players/mappers voted too so the result is probably not meaningful since that isn't the target audience of this poll, please only vote if Easy/Normal/Hard diffs are in your skill range.
Last edited by Serizawa Haruki , edited 5 times in total.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Oh god, you just invoked the wrath of Flanster.
Serizawa Haruki
1,678 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki
Well, I considered posting it in Mapping Discussion but most users who are active in that subforum are mappers and those are usually interested in mapping higher diffs and not lower ones so I would not be able to get proper player feedback there. And a lot of posts here seem to be about osu! too so I don't think it's a problem.
Last edited by Serizawa Haruki , edited 1 time in total.
Arctos Sagittario
192 posts
Joined August 2011
Arctos Sagittario
Rule says you can’t exclude beginner difficulties if the map isn’t long enough. The rationale is that beatmap sets are not supposed to deny beginners, unless the musical pieces themselves are too long, too draining for starters.

This rule is enforced by the team determining whether the beatmap get ranked or not, and mostly agreed by mappers. So I don’t quite see what you’re worrying about… eventually you’ll need them easier diffs to rank your maps, at least.
Serizawa Haruki
1,678 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki

Arctos Sagittario wrote:

Rule says you can’t exclude beginner difficulties if the map isn’t long enough. The rationale is that beatmap sets are not supposed to deny beginners, unless the musical pieces themselves are too long, too draining for starters.

This rule is enforced by the team determining whether the beatmap get ranked or not, and mostly agreed by mappers. So I don’t quite see what you’re worrying about… eventually you’ll need them easier diffs to rank your maps, at least.


Hmm I'm not sure if longer maps are too draining for beginners, they usually include breaks but it depends on the map I guess. Anyway, what I'm worried about is that some players would like to play a certain song but there are only higher difficulties available which they are not able to play. What mappers and BNs think is a different thing as they are mostly good enough to play Insane/Extra diffs anyway so they don't care about lower diffs much.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,312 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
This is from osu!mania perspective, which is currently suffering some issues. Many std folks forget other gamemodes exist and that those other gamemodes have their own crisis due to what the rank criteria requires

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

Anyway, what I'm worried about is that some players would like to play a certain song but there are only higher difficulties available which they are not able to play.
The answer to "can you make a map for this song" is always "map it yourself". Don't have lower difficulties for your song of choosing? Map it.

I hate seeing production of higher diff maps suffer because a lower diff is needed in addition to the disproportionally large pile of lower diffs that already exist in entirety.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

What mappers and BNs think is a different thing as they are mostly good enough to play Insane/Extra diffs anyway so they don't care about lower diffs much.
Just going to note that while lower diffs don't affect experienced players, requiring them most certainly does for reasons stated.
Last edited by abraker , edited 4 times in total.
Arctos Sagittario
192 posts
Joined August 2011
Arctos Sagittario

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

What BNs think is a different thing as they are mostly good enough to play Insane/Extra diffs anyway so they don't care about lower diffs much.

You probably missed my point here… What I’m saying is that osu! as a game has a core concept of free accessibility to anyone.

According to this, maps are inherently required to have beginner-friendly maps. Not including them can be interpreted as an act of discrimination, and thus will not be officially ranked—- unless there’s a valid reason for it.

Now, the only exception made is drain time. Long maps used to be called marathon, which was the idea of why they can justify their exclusion/discrimination.

The bar for marathon has been decreased over time, that’s why it only looks like slightly longer maps.

As far as I remember, there are very few maps that are short, yet got away from this rule. It may be pre-2010 era when rules were not all solid.

Now it’s a rule for ranking maps. If you wonder why then above would be the reason, but nobody would challenge this rule if they want to rank a map.

In other words, not having easier diffs for short ranked maps nowadays? It’s just technically impossible.
Serizawa Haruki
1,678 posts
Joined June 2015
Topic Starter
Serizawa Haruki

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

Anyway, what I'm worried about is that some players would like to play a certain song but there are only higher difficulties available which they are not able to play.


abraker wrote:

The answer to "can you make a map for this song" is always "map it yourself". Don't have lower difficulties for your song of choosing? Map it.


The aspect you're mentioning is not exactly what my post is about. It's not a matter of a song not being available, because it is, the thing is that the difficulties are probably inaccessible to newer players. Shorter maps require low diffs so it's possible that beginners only play those and don't get to experience longer songs, and not only 1 specific song, but pretty much all songs above a certain length. So it's not possible to map all of them because this lack of lower diffs is present in most maps of those lengths.

abraker wrote:

I hate seeing production of higher diff maps suffer because a lower diff is needed in addition to the disproportionally large pile of lower diffs that already exist in entirety.

Do you mind explaining how exactly they suffer from that? I don't really understand what you mean since from my personal mapping experience this has never happened. While you are right that there are many ranked low diffs already, new content is definitely needed so that new songs/maps can be played.
Also the issue you described is seen from a mapper's perspective and not a player's perspective which is what I am looking for.

Arctos Sagittario wrote:

You probably missed my point here… What I’m saying is that osu! as a game has a core concept of free accessibility to anyone.

According to this, maps are inherently required to have beginner-friendly maps. Not including them can be interpreted as an act of discrimination, and thus will not be officially ranked—- unless there’s a valid reason for it.

Now, the only exception made is drain time. Long maps used to be called marathon, which was the idea of why they can justify their exclusion/discrimination.

The bar for marathon has been decreased over time, that’s why it only looks like slightly longer maps.

As far as I remember, there are very few maps that are short, yet got away from this rule. It may be pre-2010 era when rules were not all solid.

Now it’s a rule for ranking maps. If you wonder why then above would be the reason, but nobody would challenge this rule if they want to rank a map.

In other words, not having easier diffs for short ranked maps nowadays? It’s just technically impossible.


Yes, the length bar for omitting lower diffs has been decreased. My question is whether it has been lowered too much. Are new players forced to only play maps that were ranked before this rule and new maps below 3:30? Or do they don't care about the lack of lower diffs and just play the higher ones although it's not in their skill range? This is what I wanted to find out, I am aware of how the rule works and why it was implemented, however the player perspective was neglected a bit since the rule was established by mappers/BNs/QAT members at that time and not players.
Last edited by Serizawa Haruki , edited 2 times in total.
Arctos Sagittario
192 posts
Joined August 2011
Arctos Sagittario
I double checked the ranking criteria and now I think I get what you’re saying… I thought the rule was still “anything below 5 minutes will have full diff spread” thing. Sorry for that.

The old rule has been there for a good while. Personally I don’t quite see why they would implement the current one, since the old one sounds reasonable enough…

But since the teams would have data on ranking process influences and plays, they may have just made changes according to those data and feedbacks. That’s my guess of why they changed this rule.

There should have been debates, negotiations, and all on this issue though…
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