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[Timing] Non-downbeat red lines

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18
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
those
Because t/74912

i.e.

[quote="Ranking Criteria#Timing":0f4d6]All uninherited sections must be on the downbeat of the measure. A downbeat is the first beat of a measure, and while this may not affect gameplay, it will affect the main menu pulsing. Therefore, any and all uninherited sections (including metronome changes such as 2/4 and 3/4 measures) must be correct. Please see this thread for more information on downbeats.I'm not too sure how having a red line at a non-downbeat will cause irregular pulsing. Additionally, I have two maps which uses red lines at non-downbeats to indicate bpm decrease, and I'm sure many others have this, too.

Related: this brought no change. Seeing how the linked thread doesn't matter, this rule in discussion should not either.

Proposal: remove this rule since it serves no purpose.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
I believe this rule was made so that the offset won't be just on any beat but the main beat. It's more like it's not properly explained I believe. Sometimes this is not the case (actually in almost any badly arranged song) and was always properly adjusted so the timing is playable.
Unless I'm wrong?
Cygnus
1,517 posts
Joined December 2011
Cygnus
I think that rule is actually nonsense since it wont actually affect the actual gameplay. On the side note, i don't even care about the pulsing, it's just a pulse, it won't give you any charm to FC a diff at all. lol
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
It does affect gameplay. Check how nightcore mod (and taiko) acts when you have a wrong downbeat. As I said, this was made so that we always have correct downbeats?
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
those
Most know: the lines in Taiko are by measure. As for Nightcore:

[quote="those":26cb4](Nightcore has a crash cymbal whenever the "current stanza" is a multiple of 4 - you'll find "current stanza" on F3, the Timing tab).
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
There are situations where I need to put a new red line on odd beats because it happens to be the best fit for the timing.
This rule needs to be revised that such cases are allowed, but there should then be another red line on the following downbeat to restore ideal behaviour.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
How about making it a guideline?
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
those

mm201 wrote:

There are situations where I need to put a new red line on odd beats because it happens to be the best fit for the timing.
This rule needs to be revised that such cases are allowed, but there should then be another red line on the following downbeat to restore ideal behaviour.
Of course, we need to take into account "resetting the metronome" and applying correct time signatures.

Sakura wrote:

How about making it a guideline?
That is not a solution; if something is about timing exists it has to be a rule - there's no arguing theory.

Therefore, it should either not exist at all (as most of us know what we're doing anyway), or we need a revision to the rule. My proposal, if the latter:

Uninherited Timing Sections can only be used to apply the correct time signature and/or to indicate tempo increase or decrease. [...]

With the above, we can also remove the redundant rule:
Uninherited timing sections cannot be used to manipulate slider speeds. These can be very unexpected for the player while also disrupting the main menu pulse and slightly changing the overall timing of the map.
since it will be covered by my proposal.

Suggestions on how to complete the rest of this rule?
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Well I knew that the rule isn't perfect since I am always aware of barlines in Taiko mode. As those said, sometimes BPM gets change in the middle of measure and in this case we cannot time the music properly without breaking the rule. This is contradiction.

But I oppose to remove this rule since whether placing uninherited section on the downbeat or not can influence some components of game. Modify this rule a bit?

EDIT:
Whoops, you guys are already doing that, my bad.

BTW I hate to see those lines in Taiko in the middle of the measures even with BPM change, to be honest. Whatever, this is out of the subject.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
those

lepidopodus wrote:

BTW I hate to see those lines in Taiko in the middle of the measures even with BPM change, to be honest. Whatever, this is out of the subject.
This is important, too. Since we now allow Taiko-only sets, this has to be acknowledged. How to change, by the way?
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Add, "If a timing section lasts for more than 2 bars and has an incorrect downbeat, add another timing section on the following downbeat to reset the metronome."
I'd also like "tempo increase and decrease" disambiguated more that fluctuating tempo is included, not just theoretical tempo changes.

Uninherited Timing Sections should be used to accurately map the song's timing. They should synchronize to the beats of the song as accurately as possible and use the correct time signature whenever possible. If an incorrect time signature would last for more than 2 bars, add another timing section to fix it. Don't create uninherited sections solely for gameplay effects--use inherited sections for that purpose.
Edit: Wow posts.
Taiko is a predicament since removing those extra bar lines means using bad timing. Use extra bar lines for now, I'll look into a fix at the programming end of things.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I'm liking this new rule definition, as it also covers the red line speedchange abuse, anyone else agrees with ammending it with that?
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@those: Well, I think barlines in Taiko should be on the downbeats but sometimes BPM change isn't on the downbeat, and that's the problem. (Well some might disagree since barlines can indicate the speed change of the notes, but I also oppose to change the note speed in the middle of the measure without any clues.)

Allowing such options like 'do not make a downbeat' or something like that? Hmm... (Deciding such thing automatically can be quite hard, I mean.)
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
@lepidopodus: if bpm changes in the middle of a measure and you wait until the downbeat to add the red line, the time between the bpm change and the downbeat isn't "perfectly timed" anymore, and in fact is not timed properly/off. So i agree with the proposal mm201 made.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Lepi: Read my response.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@sakura: Nah, you guys are misunderstanding my words. I didn't mean that BPM should be same in one measure, I mean speed of notes. (Though currently there isn't any rules about this and this is my personal opinion.) Also I'm saying about placing barlines and I insisted that it should be independent with reseting BPM but I also know that isn't possible right now. 'wait until the downbeat to add the red line'? I never mean that and that is ridiculous, I know.
'do not making downbeats' means, allowing BPM change without reseting metronome. This is different from 'do not change BPM in the middle of the measure', huh?

Oh and basically I agree with mm201's response and I thought my word was pretty similar, but seems my description isn't quite accurate. My bad.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
I added the barline removal feature and it should appear in the next couple builds.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
I didn't realize the rule in the wiki was so broken. Changed.
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