[proposal][taiko]Change HP/OD guidelines

tatatat

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

tatatat 2019-09-21T10:49:37+00:00

My proposal is to change the guidelines

Kantan

Overall Difficulty should be 4 or less.

HP Drain Rate should be 6 or more. In cases of higher note count, HP Drain Rate could be slightly adjusted to lower than 6.

Futsuu

Overall Difficulty should be 5 or less.

HP Drain Rate should be 5 or more. In cases of higher note count, HP Drain Rate could be slightly adjusted to lower than 5.

to

Kantan

Overall Difficulty should be 3 or less.

HP Drain Rate should be 7 or more. In cases of higher note count, HP Drain Rate could be slightly adjusted to lower than 7.

Futsuu

Overall Difficulty should be 4 or less.

HP Drain Rate should be 6 or more. In cases of higher note count, HP Drain Rate could be slightly adjusted to lower than 6.

a TV size kantan should basically never have 6 HP, and a TV sized futsuu should never have 5 HP. thats just too easy.

For the OD, over 75% of ranked kantans have less than 4 OD, and only around 30 futsuus have ever used OD 5. I think these could be considered enough of a rare edge case to warrant the changes in guidelines.

~with peace and love, tata~

beaw

637 posts

Joined July 2015

beaw 2019-09-21T10:52:19+00:00

idk anything about setting but you've got numbers so +1 ;v

realy0_

1,737 posts

Joined August 2016

realy0_ 2019-09-21T20:20:57+00:00

hp should be keeped as it is on both kantan/futsuu because hp 7 on kantan and hp 6 on futsuu is generally considered as fine. if you set the "hard value" at 7, it would be considered as barely acceptable due to guidelines leniency

also most maps that are more than 3min long uses hp 5-6 so uhh it breaks the guideline proposal a bit too hard imo

Last edited by realy0_ 2019-09-21T20:22:26+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

if we know each other, we can mutal in pm

tatatat

923 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

tatatat 2019-09-21T21:26:44+00:00

realy0_ wrote:
hp should be keeped as it is on both kantan/futsuu because hp 7 on kantan and hp 6 on futsuu is generally considered as fine. if you set the "hard value" at 7, it would be considered as barely acceptable due to guidelines leniency

also most maps that are more than 3min long uses hp 5-6 so uhh it breaks the guideline proposal a bit too hard imo

Long maps are accounted for in the guidelines.

In cases of higher note count, HP Drain Rate could be slightly adjusted to lower than ...

Any TV sized map should already be following my proposed guidelines. Not sure what you mean in your first paragraph though. You say 7 and 6 are fine values and should be kept that way... yet those are the values I proposed. Are you agreeing with me?

~with peace and love, tata~

realy0_

1,737 posts

Joined August 2016

realy0_ 2019-09-21T21:39:32+00:00

tatatat wrote:
realy0_ wrote:
hp should be keeped as it is on both kantan/futsuu because hp 7 on kantan and hp 6 on futsuu is generally considered as fine. if you set the "hard value" at 7, it would be considered as barely acceptable due to guidelines leniency

also most maps that are more than 3min long uses hp 5-6 so uhh it breaks the guideline proposal a bit too hard imo

Long maps are accounted for in the guidelines.

In cases of higher note count, HP Drain Rate could be slightly adjusted to lower than ...

Any TV sized map should already be following my proposed guidelines. Not sure what you mean in your first paragraph though. You say 7 and 6 are fine values and should be kept that way... yet those are the values I proposed. Are you agreeing with me?

as i said, taking the example of kantan, hp 7 is considered as fine for most mappers. but with this proposal, more people would tend to say it's a issue because it's almost breaking your guildeline proposal as it would be considered as a "extreme" and "borderline acceptable" value while in reality, it doesn't.

that's why i wouldn't rather not touch hp vaues

Last edited by realy0_ 2019-09-21T21:39:56+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

if we know each other, we can mutal in pm

tatatat

923 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

tatatat 2019-09-21T22:55:49+00:00

I still dont understand your argument. HP 7 and above for kantans is definitely allowed under my proposal, and HPs lower than that for longer lengths are also allowed. Using hp 7 for a kantan wouldnt be “almost breaking” either the current guidelines or my proposed ones. If it says “HP drain rate should be 7 or more” that means 7, or any value higher than that is acceptable.

I think you’re saying that 7 would be almost breaking the guideline because just a little lower at 6.9 it is breaking the guideline. I have to disagree with this. You’re either breaking the guideline or not. There is no inbetween or almost breaking it. Its very black and white to me

Last edited by tatatat 2019-09-21T23:02:31+00:00, edited 4 times in total.

~with peace and love, tata~

Cynplytholowazy

364 posts

Joined January 2014

Cynplytholowazy 2019-09-22T05:23:49+00:00

The current ranking criteria takes into account the BPM of the song. Since 220bpm ish Kantans and Futsuus exist I don't really see a need to force a lower OD (in case of notelock) and HP (in case of difficulty to pass).

Also density of the map is to be considered as well, a denser Kantan and a denser Futsuu would lead to a need of higher OD / HP count. Setting a lower limit causes imbalance to density vs. difficulty values.

Last edited by Cynplytholowazy 2019-09-22T05:25:23+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

tatatat

923 posts

Joined March 2015

Topic Starter

tatatat 2019-09-22T06:45:37+00:00

Cynplytholowazy wrote:
The current ranking criteria takes into account the BPM of the song. Since 220bpm ish Kantans and Futsuus exist I don't really see a need to force a lower OD (in case of notelock) and HP (in case of difficulty to pass).

Also density of the map is to be considered as well, a denser Kantan and a denser Futsuu would lead to a need of higher OD / HP count. Setting a lower limit causes imbalance to density vs. difficulty values.

Last edited by tatatat 2019-09-22T06:47:17+00:00, edited 2 times in total.

~with peace and love, tata~

DeletedUser_6637817

DeletedUser_6637817 2019-09-24T02:50:01+00:00

Harder Kantans (especially ones that use a lot of 1/1 and even 1/2) would warrant ODs up to 4, even when considering 180 bpm. Said Kantans are also not breaking any guidelines if done correctly.

I believe that if you break no guidelines while mapping and the kantan is simply hard as steel, you should not be breaking any guidelines trying to accomodate this difficulty with OD.

Similar goes to Futsuus (which can use 1/2 7lets and 1/3 2lets without breaking guidelines) which could also warrant a high OD.

I see no point in limiting mappers' choice in OD settings. If there is anything noticeably wrong with why their kantan is OD 4, it will most likely be pointed out anyways. This OD change fixes a non-issue, and is thereby not really necessary.

Similar goes to the HP settings, it limits mappers unnecessarily. Marathon Futsuus for example can contain up to 900ish notes, which could warrant a lower HP setting to provide leniency to a player, going as low as 4.5 due to more forgiving gameplay to lower players.

Besides, HP can be wildly subjective, and there is really no one correct way to set HPs. It fixes an issue that is none in my eyes.

Raiden

osu! Alumni

2,419 posts

Joined January 2013

Raiden 2019-09-24T07:27:20+00:00

Current hp/od settings work just fine with every technical aspect considered