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Hyperdash fruits don't always spawn correctly in CTB [confirmed]

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statementreply
Pro Tester
307 posts
Joined June 2009
statementreply

statementreply wrote:

lineqtxz wrote:

somethimes the catcher is crazy,
this bug appears when you fail the "end hdash fruit"
:3

scarlet rose
1. Trigger hyperdash
2. Change direction before hyperdash ends while holding dash key
3. Ryuuta moves in the opposite direction at hyperdash speed (should be normal dash speed)

peppy wrote:

I find the "change direction" hyperdash speed to be correct. You shouldn't be changing direction until it ends :P.
I think I got it wrong. It's definitely a bug.
1. Catch the starting fruit of a hyperdash (but do not complete the hyperdash)
2. Try moving ryuuta around
Now ryuuta keeps at hyperdash speed until he moves onto the position (x) of the target fruit of that hyperdash.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
eldnl
good to see that I'm doing nothing here and it's my post lol good job guys and peppy :3/
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
Well, to be fair, I edited your post after a few pages xD


In other news, peppy, statementreply, Deif and I have been discovering bugs in and ironing out the hyperdash on the test server the last couple of days. There's still a couple of minor bugs, (which will probably get their own threads) and hyperdashes are a bit tighter now to make up for formula changes, but all maps should now be FC-able and probably even SS-able. The changes are virtually done, so expect the patch to go public soon.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
A huge thanks to you guys for the timely testing. This is one of those bugs that I have trouble fixing alone because I don't have the skill or knowledge of these edge cases. Hopefuly the fix was worth the hours put into it.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Finally that's out of the way. Achievement Get
Rubytic
97 posts
Joined June 2012
Rubytic
So it's getting better and better really good
Peppy so when is the release expectation day? Still needs like a month?
If so then I'll also help you when I get supporter in a near future
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK

MillhioreF wrote:

From my quick tests, hyperdash spawning is now just about perfect, and droplets are even catchable due to the "tighter" hyperdash controls.

However, it's become much harder to actually hit hyperdashes because of this, and I probably speak for most of the CTB community when I say that they'd rather have FC-able maps with the old hyperdash controlling than SS-able maps with the much tighter, harder controlling. Maybe you should save a better droplet solution for a future patch. Perhaps adjust droplet location only on sliders that are hypered to fall into the natural hyperdash range? Not high priority though.
Most experienced people will find the change to be very hard to adapt to, since it would seem like all the luck you needed to hit the pixels was transferred to the hyperdash controlling thing. I mean, now if I go and try some TAG4, only chance will tell if I'll be able to have total control of the Ryuuta when it's in hyperdash status so no, this is a regressive change and I suggest to fix the speed of these special fruits back to their normal state.

Basically I tried to hit my directional keys <- / -> the same way I did with some TAG4 like http://osu.ppy.sh/b/58064?m=2 and it was a total failure compared to the old hyperdash controlling state. If you want to improve the skill spectrum of CtB, you're doing it the wrong way.

P/D: I totally agree in fixing the Hyperdash-not-always-spawning bug, but try to do just that and not change other gameplay aspects of the game.

Sorry for my grammatic mistakes.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif

VelperK wrote:

Most experienced people will find the change to be very hard to adapt to, since it would seem like all the luck you needed to hit the pixels was transferred to the hyperdash controlling thing.
No, just no. It wasn't as much hard as you're predicting (for me) in 99.9% of the songs. I've been testing different TAG4 difficulties, as it seems to be your major preocupation, and these are the results (disregard NoFail and multiply all the scores by 2):

SPOILER









Comparing to my average scores in those songs, I must admit those are only normal tries and not spectacular scores (I didn't pretend to do OMGWTFBBQ records anyway). That means the gameplay in those songs has not (or maybe slightly) changed with the last changes. StrangeProgram is probably the most benefited song of those, as there were a lot of speedy sliders that used to be impossible before.

I encourage experienced players to go into the test build and help to develop this new HDash system, instead of complaining and not offering any constructive solution.
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK

Deif wrote:

VelperK wrote:

Most experienced people will find the change to be very hard to adapt to, since it would seem like all the luck you needed to hit the pixels was transferred to the hyperdash controlling thing.
No, just no. It wasn't as much hard as you're predicting (for me) in 99.9% of the songs. I've been testing different TAG4 difficulties, as it seems to be your major preocupation, and these are the results (disregard NoFail and multiply all the scores by 2):

SPOILER









Comparing to my average scores in those songs, I must admit those are only normal tries and not spectacular scores (I didn't pretend to do OMGWTFBBQ records anyway). That means the gameplay in those songs has not (or maybe slightly) changed with the last changes. StrangeProgram is probably the most benefited song of those, as there were a lot of speedy sliders that used to be impossible before.

I encourage experienced players to go into the test build and help to develop this new HDash system, instead of complaining and not offering any constructive solution.
And I encourage you to try this map 5 times in both osu! builds (the public and the private): http://osu.ppy.sh/b/74845

Please, do post the results of each osu! build and then say the same.
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,564 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif

VelperK wrote:

And I encourage you to try this map 5 times in both osu! builds (the public and the private): http://osu.ppy.sh/b/74845

Please, do post the results of each osu! build and then say the same.
Tried it with the original AR in both versions. Just 1 try was necessary:

Public build
Test build

Same accuracy, and 2 misses of difference. The test build fixes some pixel-jumps the original map has but on the other hand, the sudden direction changes are harder now.

Nevertheless, that's not a very good example, as it's not even following the criteria of rankability in CTB maps.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
Also note that the post of mine Velper quoted was a fairly old post. Since that one, peppy made an update to make the new hyperdashes smoother (they were totally unplayable at the time)
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
peppy's response is most likely going to resemble this "Deal with it!"
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
eldnl
what about keep the change of the hyperdashes only for between-sliders jumps, and restore the old hyperdashes for everyting else?
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK

eldnl wrote:

what about keep the change of the hyperdashes only for between-sliders jumps, and restore the old hyperdashes for everyting else?
^This.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
(Sorry I couldn't connect these days to test. /mylife)

Uh. I still can find extra unrequired hypers.
For example : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40071 [Posthumous] @ 01:31:959 (2) -

I don't really like the new behavior of the hyperdashes... I think i'll have to rethink many of my patterns in quite all my maps, I used them to make huge jumps wich don't require an accurate timing, the update about this point is basically the oposite of how I see an hyperdash and how I use them in mapping.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
There are still some remaining hypers, yes, but it sounds like they'll be fixed in a later release:

test build IRC wrote:

[21:33] <@peppy> i'm not calculating back 2 objects
[21:33] <@peppy> to see last turn direction
[21:33] <@peppy> but it gets complicated here
[21:33] <@peppy> it 2 objects back was a hyperdash
[21:33] <@peppy> the hyperdash will end centered
[21:34] <@peppy> which would mean you need this hyperfruit
[21:34] <@peppy> not sure if worth fixing
I should probably unresolve this thread and just move it to low priority. The extra fruits here shouldn't break anything, just make some jumps slightly easier.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
From dev blog :



I thought that was the point of the update. I can understand some extra hypers, but the new hyper behavior isn't kinda modifying a lot the difficulty of the maps ? I don't want to taunt or something... I hope my attitude isn't going to be missinterpreted.
Rubytic
97 posts
Joined June 2012
Rubytic
found unnecessary hyperdash
http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=131891&m=2
Anyway I can't adapt character's movement in test build, too smooth XD
Is this situation also kinda patch or just some error? While eating hyperdash, character moves slowly than the original server so I can't even fc some easy insane maps.
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK
This thread should be untagged as "resolved" and put back into the Confirmed: Low Priority section.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
Yeah, it probably should, because of that remaining edge-case.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
This is going live with current test build unless there are any complaints in this thread. If you do have a complaint, please cite examples using isolated cases in .osu files (see Millhiore's previous posts) else tehy will be ignored.
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK
The problem here is a bit broader than what you think, since literally all hyperdashes are affected by this change we cannot give you "an isolated case" like you want so you can code something else, all we can do is tell you that the ryuuta is a lot more hard to control than in the public build now when in hyperdash status (and it was hard enough in the public one) so yeah, most experienced people will complain and you will not be able to understand because you are not an experienced player, or even a CtB player.

So go ahead, unleash the unrest in the people and continue with your "Deal with it" attitude, as always.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
That issue is unrelated to hyperdash spawns and has already been deemed invalid.
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK
He said we could discuss that topic here as well.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
If you want, show us an isolated pattern that is nearly impossible to play with the new ryuuta movement. You say you can't, but you can.
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK
I can show you my results on a map full of hyperdashes in both the test build and the public build if you want, so you can see how harder it is.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Most of the map does not matter. It is already known that it's harder. You need to prove that it's an issue that its harder. There needs to be some case where it severely affects one's ability to play. Just because you haven't adjusted to the new movement is no indication that it's a problem.
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK

TheVileOne wrote:

Most of the map does not matter. It is already known that it's harder. You need to prove that it's an issue that its harder. There needs to be some case where it severely affects one's ability to play. Just because you haven't adjusted to the new movement is no indication that it's a problem.
I urge you to actually get ON the game and watch me play and telling you specifically what affects my ability.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
That will not solve anything. I am not the one you need to convince. You heard peppy, you must provide a .osu or you will be ignored. i'm just instructing you how you need to go about getting your opinion heard. This is going live before anything will be changed so it's pointless to continue on with this CTB community will complain about it argument. If they will complain, it will be an inevitable conclusion.

But until then you'll need more concrete proof. Show us a pattern that's exceptionally difficult to pass that was quite trivial previously. If you cannot do such things, then you will not be able to get past peppy's opinion in your thread about the old behaviour being an ultimately buggy approach to hypering. I'm leaning on peppy's side after he said that, because if the old hyper code was preventing me from making it to a fruit, because it was cutting hyper too short, then it is in my benefit that it aims towards the center of the hyper now.

I haven't spend very much time at all with the new hypers with the way of linking, but I don't see it as being harmful if it goes live. Because we wont know what the community will think unless they actually have to deal with it. So until then, either show that it's an issue or be patient and see if your theorized backlash happens.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne


Is there some form of qualification to be considered a CTB player?


Edit:Okay. I understand the complaints now and I would agree with those complaints. This may restricts certain songs to an even more skilled player base when previously these songs would have been passable. Because there's a tendency that if you miss one hyper you're going to miss all the hypers after that, and there's lots of internal ms counting that needs to go on where players need to keep in mind how long they need to hold the press before returning back. If they are off, then they come up short. However this change isn't that noticeable.

It would be more enjoyable if it were like the old behavior, but I could get used to it like this, especially with some practice. But the harder the difficulties get, the harder it is to catch them. It would be nice to be able to overshoot the plate by some amount to avoid completely missing it. I feel indifferent.

I cannot tell the difference really. If I could hit the hyper before the update, I can still hit it, and if I couldn't hit it, I still can't.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura

TheVileOne wrote:

If you want, show us an isolated pattern that is nearly impossible to play with the new ryuuta movement. You say you can't, but you can.
For the hardest ones : All 1/4 hyperdashes, and more than 2 consecutive hypers @1/2 changing direction like this. Does this really require a .osu to understand ?

All others hypers are dizzy and make the players feels he's going too far, even after testing it for a good amount of time I still have this impression of going too far and this breaks a lot the reading/design of the maps.

Btw I read that we have a similar amount of time to catch them than a 300 in std. But in std they don't break their combo for getting a 50 or a 100 plus if they have a 100 on the first circle they can allways get a 300 on the second circle. In CtB if you're late for a first fruit sometimes you'll not be able to catch the next one (I'm not saying that this is an issue, I just compare the two gamemodes, and explain that the two gamemodes are really different in term of gameplay).
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
My agreement is slowly fading away.

Hyper linking at 161 bpm seems only marginally different. I'm playing with a Dance number and i'm hitting the hypers just fine. There's no noticable sense that it's harder to hit them. I realize though that it changes with the OD, so maybe the song's I'm picking aren't ridiculous enough to matter.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
I've done some testing too, and with the most recent test build update, hypers don't seem HARDER per se, maybe just slightly harder. But they're definitely somewhat different to control, which is probably why people are complaining - they're different. I'm fairly confident that if the pros play with the new hyperdashes for just one week, they'll be almost as good as they were with the old hyperdashes, maybe equally good.

(Note that there was another formula tweak about 20 hours ago from this post, so disregard anything from before then for the sake of what I'm saying)
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK
Ruin CtB's hyperdashes already and get the build public at once for god's sake.
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK
bump.

this difficulty has no need of any hyperdashes at all, but the test build added a lot of them to it, thus ruining the creator's intention of giving the player a challenge for only dashing.

diff: http://puu.sh/1NPS6 - "Lemon tree (non-hyper dash)"

and those jumps that were replaced with hyperdashes are not that hard to begin with, see how important it is to fix this kind of stuff before making it go live? it could be exploited as hell and then fixed, and there we will have people complaining on how their records got stolen with some bug that was fixed one week later.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Your attitude is really wrong. If you posted without that whole last paragraph, it would actually be a productive post. I will look into the map and show why the hyperdashes have been added. It is likely they will stay where they are though.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
I checked every case in this map, and they are all edge cases which would be catable on approximately 30% of PCs, based on random luck. Maps made like this will need to be unranked and re-made if they wish to avoid hyperdashes, because they are not cachable in 100% of cases and this patch is made to fix that.
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK
This patch is made for getting CtB easier in other words.
People who play competively and focus on getting nice records will most certainly get a decent PC to be at the pair of the rest and try to train the maps in the difficulty they were just made, while people who play for fun or the "casual" players will just not care/notice about this.

By the way, It'd be nice if you explained what kind of PC is unable to catch some jumps of that map which were hyper'd in the test build.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
There are certain jumps i can't catch, because they require 150 FPS to barely catch them and 160+ to catch them normally and I only get 140. These special cases likely require more frames than that.
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK
I completely disagree with that statement, in fact, it is so wrong that some people exploit the 60fps limiter to catch pixel jumps (ExGon for example told me he changes to 60fps in some spot of a map just to be able to catch a fruit which didn't enable him to FC it)

Btw, you can come online and watch me play that map in the public build with the 120fps limiter if you want.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
60 FPS is unplayable on CTB.

It may be some aspect of my PC that's related to how much FPS I get, but it's definitely related to how fast I can move the ryuuta. The less frames I get, the slower the ryuuta moves. That's just how it is in my case.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy

TheVileOne wrote:

There are certain jumps i can't catch, because they require 150 FPS to barely catch them and 160+ to catch them normally and I only get 140. These special cases likely require more frames than that.
I hope you mean before the patch. If not, please provide examples.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Eh it's actually possible. I tried on test build. I rescind my complaint, but I am interested in how only a certain number of machines can catch fruit.
peppy
19,315 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
The new patch is made to resolve that. In the public build, timings were incorrect. You can check my blog post for the specifics.
GuruK
13 posts
Joined November 2010
GuruK
hello I played ctb for 2 years and I totally support this fix thank you
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
eldnl

GuruK wrote:

hello I played ctb for 2 years and I totally support this fix thank you
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK
Completely unnecesary hyperdash here:



Isolated osu. here: http://puu.sh/1Omap
119410501
665 posts
Joined April 2011
119410501

VelperK wrote:

Completely unnecesary hyperdash here:



Isolated osu. here: http://puu.sh/1Omap
I didn't really understand why Big Black streams are hyper dashed now .-.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
eldnl
It is fixed now?
VelperK
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK
No, and i'll ask peppy to go further with his last change to the dash behaviour in hyperdash status since it's almost fixed, though it still sucks a bit.
Last Remnant_old
Last Remnant_old
Here is one case of unnecessary hyperdash:



As we can see, the jump between fruit 4 and fruit 5 is catchable (there is no hyper on fruit 4). The jump between fruit 1 and 3 is equally spaced both in position and time as jump 4-5, which means that hyperfruit on fruit 2 shouldn't be there (jumps 1-3 and 4-5 are both equal and catchable without need for hypers anywhere).

PS. Here are elements I used:

0,0,500,1,0,
256,0,732,1,0,
512,0,964,1,0,
512,0,1200,1,0,
0,0,1664,1,0,
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