hiMr Color wrote:
it would be nice to at least deny kudosu on mods that are less than 4 lines long.
hiMr Color wrote:
it would be nice to at least deny kudosu on mods that are less than 4 lines long.
I couldn't disagree more. If the mapper needs to make changes for it to count, it becomes a game of roulette for the modder since they have no way of knowing if the mapper applies their changes or not. It puts the mapper on a high pedestal, establishing their personal opinions as law regarding whether a mod is good or bad. Furthermore, this encourages mappers to avoid maps from mappers who are known to have inflated egos and never accept any mods. These maps, usually from famous mappers, end up getting ranked with even fewer mods than they already have.Mr Color wrote:
A mod that makes the mapper change stuff in his map (a disregarded mod isn't a mod since nothing came out of it)
completely agree with this.Blue Dragon wrote:
Can we please get rid of the mod4mod BAT/MAT queues? People post in there and make half-assed mods to the BAT/MAT maps just to get an easy bubble/ranks. Andrea's maps have tons of that and this is how he gets so many badly done mods in such a short amount of time.
Kinda this.Kitsunemimi wrote:
you may say the problem at hand may be caused by bad ranks, when frankly, it wouldn't be a bad rank in the first place had enough people modded the map if they were given more time.
I actually partly agree with you on this, but I'd rather see something like this: When a XAT comes to check out a map, he should also check out the mods it has received, and check what has been fixed and what hasn't. If a normally good mod has been completely disregarded by the mapper, he would be able to deny the SP gained by the mod without revoking the modder's well-deserved kd. Unfortunately, that would require a lot of work from the XATs. We don't really want that.mm201 wrote:
I couldn't disagree more. If the mapper needs to make changes for it to count, it becomes a game of roulette for the modder since they have no way of knowing if the mapper applies their changes or not. It puts the mapper on a high pedestal, establishing their personal opinions as law regarding whether a mod is good or bad. Furthermore, this encourages mappers to avoid maps from mappers who are known to have inflated egos and never accept any mods. These maps, usually from famous mappers, end up getting ranked with even fewer mods than they already have.Mr Color wrote:
A mod that makes the mapper change stuff in his map (a disregarded mod isn't a mod since nothing came out of it)
There's a reason why BATs are allowed to grant kudosu rather than just the mapper.
See, that's something I disagree with. Instead of getting the map ranked with fewer mods, the map should be stuck in its ranking process until the mapper accepts to give in and eventually apply changes pointed out by the mods. This would prompt mappers with too much pride to learn some modesty, also.mm201 wrote:
Furthermore, this encourages mappers to avoid maps from mappers who are known to have inflated egos and never accept any mods. These maps, usually from famous mappers, end up getting ranked with even fewer mods than they already have.
mm201 wrote:
The problem you're describing has nothing at all to do with fast ranks, rather, it has everything to do with bad ranks.. If a map needs to be unranked, it's because of something important that the ranking BAT ought to have caught before ranking it in the first place. If anything, there should be more discipline towards the BATs involved in bad ranks.
(I still see a problem in this, don't you? It exists. You just explained a variation of it.)dkun wrote:
Let's put this all in retrospect. You need two people to rank a map. Three for an approval. (1 MAT/BAT, or 1 MAT/2 BAT) Where does the biggest problem lie in all of this? The BAT team as a whole. Change needs to come from within the BAT to address this issue, as it's not just one mapper's fault, or one BAT's fault. This is a community problem as it stands, and needs to be solved by those in power for the better sake of the community.
From the general modding level, true. But how does one mod a map when you go to sleep the night before, and when you wake up, the map is already ranked? I try to mod with quality in mind; with the standard we do hold to date. But how are people like myself supposed to mod when said maps are sped to the ranked status?Shiro wrote:
I will never repeat this enough, but the problems comes from the general modding level. Yes, many MATs and BATs are concerned. Mods are bad. No one bothers to point out what could be improved. They only point out what could be unranked.
This is yet another piece of truth. The "quality" of mods is going down the drain.Shiro wrote:
No attention whatsoever is given to quality. Yes, I know, this speech again. Do you need any more proof of this ? And before you go "find us a solution", I had a "mod queue" in which I told people what I think could be improved in their mod posts. Unfortunately, it was very quickly forgotten. We need to make mappers understand that a rank is a consequence of making a good map, while most seem to think that having a good map is a consequence of having a map ranked.
This is perfect for a long-term solution; redefining what a "mod" actually is. Re-thinking what counts as kudosu.Shiro wrote:
So, what solutions ? Obviously, changing people's mindsets is impossible, especially when some mappers keep getting bad maps (in many ways) ranked and showing the wrong example. Trying to set good examples is impossible either, for the same reason.
The only solution I can think of would be to make the overall modding quality greater.
THIS. It seems that people just uses 50% symmetry and half of the map is copypasted from the first kiai, meaning the map has... 25% originality wtf? I mean.. they don't seem to map for people to enjoy or try to improve their style or anything.. just get ranked maps without any effort.. I really really really hate those maps and mappers too.Tanzklaue wrote:
and people like andrea start again actually caring about quality, and modders mod maps based on quality and not on names.
but for the start, it would really help if people would stop with the elitism and don't just mod maps from some special people.
Indeed, it seems that the quantity is what matters nowadays... IMO it would be much better if mappers just concern about the quality c:yeahyeahyeahhh wrote:
Just disappointed this coming out of you. From a mapper on his 158th map I'd expect more quality. Guess quantity is of the importance here.
fwiw, I'll mod whatever you throw at me.Tanzklaue wrote:
maybe we should make the rankingprocess anonymously, so you don't see who mapped what, so nobody cares for big names, and people like andrea start again actually caring about quality, and modders mod maps based on quality and not on names.
well, at least this would e the utopian answer the problem.
but for the start, it would really help if people would stop with the elitism and don't just mod maps from some special people.
I (and hopefully other BATs) will be nuking posts that don't follow this simple rule. This is supposed to a constructive debate, not a gunfight.dkun wrote:
Please refrain from pointing at other mappers unless it's from an objective-sided point of view. We're here to discuss how to solve the problem, not to point fingers are who's guilty of doing this.
This post needs more attention.Blue Dragon wrote:
Can we please get rid of the mod4mod BAT/MAT queues? People post in there and make half-assed mods to the BAT/MAT maps just to get an easy bubble/ranks. Andrea's maps have tons of that and this is how he gets so many badly done mods in such a short amount of time.
The team is supposed to be "focused" on higher priority bubbles, but this is only a focus. And look how that turned out.akrolsmir wrote:
Just a thought: What if only the oldest bubbled map is allowed to be ranked? (or highest SP.)
Then a BAT has to mod the bubble and pop/rank accordingly, then move on to the next one.Mr Color wrote:
That would certainly cause a massive traffic jam of maps, imagine if a map is bubbled and the mapper is inactive for X days for Y reason?
So implement a hard lock so that only the highest sp map can be ranked.dkun wrote:
The team is supposed to be "focused" on higher priority bubbles, but this is only a focus. And look how that turned out.
But in case, when the BAT rank it, it could be the possibility that it has to be unranked, because of something like Update Bug.akrolsmir wrote:
Then a BAT has to mod the bubble and pop/rank accordingly, then move on to the next one.
As speed is the most dominant factor in most of the "bad" ranks (at least I would say so), then wouldn't fixing this "issue" be on the road to success?mm201 wrote:
Bad ranks and speedranks are certainly correlated. Statistically, a map that gets ranked before receiving enough mods gets ranked faster than a map that receives all the mods it needs.
What constitutes "enough mods" is different for every map, making it impossible to single out speed as the underlying problem.
Basically this. The problem is with BATs who don't really care about map quality.dkun wrote:
-OR- put the team in question that's actually ranking said maps.
This is the blunt way at putting it. But what exactly is to be done with said people, mm201? I'm pretty sure internal affairs is set out to be set straight internally by the team, but it'd be nice if there was some kind of reassurance that some sort of action was being taken towards resolving this.Shiirn wrote:
It says something that even the BATs know that there are BATs that are shitty at ranking and nothing is being done anyway.
Kinda touched people still remember/refer to these. I advise anyone on this thread who has yet to read this particular piece to do so.Mr Color wrote:
Here is a link to the osu!monthly #5 where KRZY discusses Speedranking. Needless to say, this didn't have any impact on the ranking process in general. This was made back in mid-2011.
nobody will ever be able to rank their own maps. even in the new proposed system, it requires community consensus and always will require consensus of some form.Wishy22 wrote:
Give elite mappers the ability to rank their own maps. They're not retarded and they won't rank it before getting some suggestions/mods from players/other mappers. With that you save some time MATs/BATs spend modding some maps they can't even play/are even better than theirs. Plus you don't get Gold Dust and maps like that waiting for months till some random guy comes and rank it. If they abuse their power they can be removed from their position.
care to elaborate? this is vague.Wishy22 wrote:
Remove the kudosu system and use another one, it's retarded and impulses fast shit mods.
and then what? they are removed from the team once reaching 0 points? all this will do is cause people to not look at maps for fear of reprisal, meaning the entire system will collapse in on itself. smart suggestion.Wishy22 wrote:
Give MATs/BATs X chances to bubble/rank un-rankable maps. Let's say have 2 points to begin with, they get a point for every X correct bubbles they hand out, and of course they lose a point every fucking time they bubble a map that ends up getting un-ranked. 0 points = bye bye.
credence is likely already given to "proven" mappers by some members of the team already.. others call it "speedranking". see the problem here?Wishy22 wrote:
Problem is not speed-ranking but the fact some maps get ranked as fast as they get un-ranked, which is pathetic. And it's even worse when epic maps take ages to get ranked/never do. I'd seriously give privileges to those mappers who have shown to be able to map really well without 999 mods. Of course, since they have years here and have mapped a lot, seriously you can help out people like galvenize or val0108 with a little mod, but dude lol I've played many of their maps just out of the oven even before they got any mods and they are still better than 95% of the ranked maps we get every week. It is true they get some mods but the changes they get are minimum, and if they are noticeable I think those mappers are smart enough to figure that out after watching a free test plays like they always do.
there has always been a profound difference between a good mapper and a good modder - the two are not always mutually exclusive. a fantastic modder may be a terrible mapper, and vice versa. it is also exceptionally difficult to retain interest in actively playing a game where you are spending 80% of your time for said game on working for other people's projects for practically no benefit other than the occasional "thanks". what you are proposing in essence is that we begin to treat this position like people actually receive any form of benefit for helping out. the moment we start excessively reprimanding people for mistakes is the moment this team begins to fall apart, and practically anybody in the staff team at the moment is aware of this.Wishy22 wrote:
tl;dr: Crap. Make BATs/MATs get fired if they screw up too much/make their team look pathetic. Stop being so elitist, MATs/BATs are not mapping geniuses and aren't even that good@mapping when compared to some of the best mappers you got around. (Since most of them don't even play the game/suck and can't play most maps)
Most "best" mappers don't really need mods, and they search for approval In-Game, by asking for test plays/little mods from players, since the best way to mod a map and find it's errors is TO PLAY THEM. As I said many times I got to play maps even before they got submitted/just after they did, and guess what, they got ranked months after and the map was pretty much the same, of course, you can't really go around telling very experienced mappers what to change in their maps, unless you find some critical mistake, which would be really rare.Ephemeral wrote:
nobody will ever be able to rank their own maps. even in the new proposed system, it requires community consensus and always will require consensus of some form.
care to elaborate? this is vague.Way too easy to abuse, and a good reason to speed-mod/do shit mods everywhere just to get kudosu. You could say this incentives people to mod maps to get kudosu, I think it just makes them do bad and fast mods. Different points of view I guess.
and then what? they are removed from the team once reaching 0 points? all this will do is cause people to not look at maps for fear of reprisal, meaning the entire system will collapse in on itself. smart suggestion.If you get to be a MAT/BAT you shouldn't be worried about that, just do your job wisely and carefully and you won't have any problem. What you say is a possibility, but if you made it to that position and yet you're as good as any random modder/mapper/player then something's wrong. Being a MAT/BAT should mean that you're over the average so you can give better mods, also meaning your judgement is good enough to decide that a map should be ranked. If someone can get to that position without those minimum condition, then even the bases are wrong.
credence is likely already given to "proven" mappers by some members of the team already.. others call it "speedranking". see the problem here?As I said speed ranking is fine.
there has always been a profound difference between a good mapper and a good modder - the two are not always mutually exclusive. a fantastic modder may be a terrible mapper, and vice versa. it is also exceptionally difficult to retain interest in actively playing a game where you are spending 80% of your time for said game on working for other people's projects for practically no benefit other than the occasional "thanks". what you are proposing in essence is that we begin to treat this position like people actually receive any form of benefit for helping out. the moment we start excessively reprimanding people for mistakes is the moment this team begins to fall apart, and practically anybody in the staff team at the moment is aware of this.
while i can understand your frustrations about the system, i think that you are looking towards the wrong part of the system to attempt to fix what is wrong. being more strict with the BAT/MAT will not solve anything, only cause more issues. the system needs to be fundamentally changed at the most basic level, which it will be, provided peppy ever gets around to implementing the new ranking system over all the other thousands of bugs and feature requests.
This. Because if you look around, not many mappers' maps get speedranked. They all quite involve the same specific group of people.KRZY wrote:
a problem of certain members of the MAT/BAT .... not having the right mindset for their jobs.
I agree with you. Speedranking happens usually in maps that usually involve the same specific group of people.xsrsbsns wrote:
This. Because if you look around, not many mappers' maps get speedranked. They all quite involve the same specific group of people.
I for one disagree with things like "speedranking is okay as long as the map's flawless", because it doesn't only take 2 XATs in 2 days to decide that. Then again, I guess it's not too hard to, for example, map something with 1.0x DS and call it flawless.