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Keyboard switches?

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74
Pacemaker
106 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Pacemaker
(Not sure if this is the correct section to post this in or not)

So after I recently trashed my old rubber dome keyboard, I decided on having my new one be a mechanical one that's hopefully even more well suited for playing osu!/rhythm games in general.

Now from what I'm seeing, the MX Black keyboards (BlackWidow, 6GV2 etc.) are the most popular ones to use for osu!, although their trigger is relatively heavy compared to the MX Reds. However, I read about the Reds, and people say that it's easy to mess up the hit-timing with them.

My question: Which ones do you people prefer, or which ones do you think are best? MX Reds, Blacks, or even completely different switches?
Frizz
4,131 posts
Joined April 2011
Frizz
First of all, BlackWidow never use MX Cherry Black switch. They use MX Cherry Blue and Brown, contrary to most mechanical gaming keyboards which use MX Cherry Black. Pretty much stupid that Razer decided to create a mechanical gaming keyboard with tactile switches which are widely used for typing and not gaming. And yet they still claim that the switches they use for BlackWidow are better than any other mechanical gaming keyboards that use MX Cherry Black. Mind you that MX Cherry Black is considered as the best switches for gaming.

Second, the matter of switches is different depending on one's personal preferences.
Pacemaker
106 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Pacemaker

Frizz925 wrote:

First of all, BlackWidow never use MX Cherry Black switch. They use MX Cherry Blue and Brown
My bad, I only found out about that after I made the post.

Frizz925 wrote:

Pretty much stupid that Razer decided to create a mechanical gaming keyboard with tactile switches which are widely used for typing and not gaming. And yet they still claim that the switches they use for BlackWidow are better than any other mechanical gaming keyboards that use MX Cherry Black. Mind you that MX Cherry Black is considered as the best switches for gaming.

Second, the matter of switches is different depending on one's personal preferences.
What would one's personal preference be in this case? Why is it that most people prefer MX Blacks? What's particularly liked about the fact that they're not tactile, and what is it that many dislike about the Blues that are? That's what I don't quite understand..
Frizz
4,131 posts
Joined April 2011
Frizz
You most likely would bottom-out keys while gaming in most cases, so linear switches like MX Cherry Black or Red suit best here. Personal preferences here mostly mattered by how one use and feel a particular MX Cherry switch. Choosing which switch would fit the best for osu! is different than any other games. MX Cherry Black could or could not be the best switch for everyone even though it is the switch that fits the best for gaming and vice versa for MX Cherry Blue. Some people prefer to bottom-out keys while streaming, these people prefer linear switches most. The others don't, and they prefer tactile switches most. This is why it depends on your personal preferences. You really should try and find which MX Cherry switch would fit the best for you beforehand.

Just my 2 cents really. If you switch to mechanical keyboards from rubberdome keyboards for the first time, then linear switches may be suitable for you since you'll bottom-out at the first time using them.
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Ohrami
If you aren't using a red switch keyboard, you're a casual.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Most top players use blue though.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Wishy22 wrote:

Most top players use blue though.
Since when?

Personally I use blacks and I find them fine for everything.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Cookiezi, White Wolf, Niko-. KeigoClear, and pretty sure Rucker too use blue switches (BlackWidow).

Black ones are too hard compared to blue/red/brown.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Kyou-kun wrote:

If you aren't using a red switch keyboard, you're a casual.
this was so true like a year ago when red switches weren't available anywhere

just having one meant that you had too much money or were obsessed with osu!

I was the latter

edit: Silvia used blues too
Last edited by thelewa , edited 1 time in total.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Or you either were in some country where EliteKeyboards would ship a goddamn keyboard. XD
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Wishy22 wrote:

Or you either were in some country where EliteKeyboards would ship a goddamn keyboard. XD
it still cost me so goddamn much it was unreal :D

150€ for a keyboard holy fucking shit
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Well guess it's not that expensive, in Japan red-switches keyboard were like $140. :/
Pacemaker
106 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Pacemaker
Meh, probs just gonna get a BlackWidow then. While it's good to find your own style of playing, you can't deny the fact that many of the guys considered the top are using one as well. I'd love to try Reds, but...

thelewa wrote:

150€ for a keyboard holy fucking shit
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Pacemaker wrote:

Meh, probs just gonna get a BlackWidow then. While it's good to find your own style of playing, you can't deny the fact that many of the guys considered the top are using one as well. I'd love to try Reds, but...

thelewa wrote:

150€ for a keyboard holy fucking shit
Don't worry about that, you can get reds very cheaply nowadays, maybe even cheaper than blackwidow
Frizz
4,131 posts
Joined April 2011
Frizz

Wishy22 wrote:

Cookiezi, White Wolf, Niko-. KeigoClear, and pretty sure Rucker too use blue switches (BlackWidow).

Black ones are too hard compared to blue/red/brown.
However the combination of their high actuation force and close operating/reset points make them easier for double tapping. I've tried Blacks myself and they're much better than Blues for me.

Also don't forget that val0108 uses Blacks too.
Last edited by Frizz , edited 1 time in total.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
You can get them by way less money actually.
JAKACHAN
684 posts
Joined March 2011
JAKACHAN

Frizz925 wrote:

Wishy22 wrote:

Cookiezi, White Wolf, Niko-. KeigoClear, and pretty sure Rucker too use blue switches (BlackWidow).

Black ones are too hard compared to blue/red/brown.
However the combination of their high actuation force and close operating/reset points make them easier for double tapping. I've tried Blacks myself and they're much better than Blues for me.

Also don't forget that val0108 uses Blacks too.
That's funny cause I've tried reds and blacks and they are worse than blues for me.
WASSHOI
56 posts
Joined July 2010
WASSHOI

Pacemaker wrote:

Meh, probs just gonna get a BlackWidow then. While it's good to find your own style of playing, you can't deny the fact that many of the guys considered the top are using one as well. I'd love to try Reds, but...
Blues are great for gaming and good for typing. I prefer them over any other switch. It's really a matter of personal choice, because the switches really are about just adjusting key presses to your comfort level. If you're getting BlackWidow, might I also recomend you look into Cool Master Quickfire Rapid, a great competitor for the BlackWidow.

If you really want reds, then there's also a slightly more expensive red switch version of it too.
Last edited by WASSHOI , edited 3 times in total.
Frizz
4,131 posts
Joined April 2011
Frizz
Not for me. I'm starting to have enough with their tactility.
IppE
IppE
RED SWITCHES DA BESSS!!!!11!1!1!!1111
JAKACHAN
684 posts
Joined March 2011
JAKACHAN

IppE wrote:

RED SWITCHES DA BESSS!!!!11!1!1!!1111
Red Switches make you stream 270 instantly RIGHT LEWA? -wink wink-
IppE
IppE
damn right
JAKACHAN
684 posts
Joined March 2011
JAKACHAN

Remonwater
53 posts
Joined June 2012
Remonwater
I bought my BlackWidow a while ago because it didn't seem all that expensive compared to the other keyboards. It feels great, but when it came my spacebar was loose and kind of came off; afterwards I put it back on and its completely functional. My 1 key is easily removable as well, but still completely functional. Despite those complications, it's a great keyboard and worth the money
Last edited by Remonwater , edited 2 times in total.
WASSHOI
56 posts
Joined July 2010
WASSHOI
If you wanna know if blues are right for you, many large electronic branches such as Best Buy will most likely have the BlackWidow in stock, and you can literally feel the arrow keys on them since the box has a small window for you to test out how they feel. (For this reason I recondite not getting a BlackWidow from a store like that caus who knows who's disgusting fingers have been on your brand new product before you got to try it. Order BlackWidow online if you're going to buy one.)
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

WASSHOI wrote:

Blues are great for gaming and good for typing. I prefer them over any other switch. It's really a matter of personal choice, because the switches really are about just adjusting key presses to your comfort level. If you're getting BlackWidow, might I also recomend you look into Cool Master Quickfire Rapid, a great competitor for the BlackWidow.

If you really want reds, then there's also a slightly more expensive red switch version of it too.
Fuck my life, I want that blue switch version, but they don't sell it in Finland. They only sell the version that has red switches.

I can buy the red switches version for 65€ in like 4 days, might just buy a new one since this current keyboard has a few broken keys.
WASSHOI
56 posts
Joined July 2010
WASSHOI

N y a r u k o wrote:

I bought my BlackWidow a while ago because it didn't seem all that expensive compared to the other keyboards. It feels great, but when it came my spacebar was loose and kind of came off; afterwards I put it back on and its completely functional. My 1 key is easily removable as well, but still completely functional. Despite those complications, it's a great keyboard and worth the money
That's because Razor products are built in Chinese sweatshops and occasionally have build issues. My old keyboard was a Razor Arctosa and the left shift key's spring came out of place after about a month of use. Lots of Razor products have random build issues, from my personal experience as well as online testimonials.

Quickfire Rapids are Costar built, same company that makes other high quality mechanical keyboards such as Filcos. Only problem with Quickfire Rapid is their obnoxious logo placed all over the keyboard.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Frizz925 wrote:

Wishy22 wrote:

Cookiezi, White Wolf, Niko-. KeigoClear, and pretty sure Rucker too use blue switches (BlackWidow).

Black ones are too hard compared to blue/red/brown.
However the combination of their high actuation force and close operating/reset points make them easier for double tapping. I've tried Blacks myself and they're much better than Blues for me.

Also don't forget that val0108 uses Blacks too.
Black switches are HARD to press, which reduces your potential endurance.
Espionage724
876 posts
Joined August 2011
Espionage724
Buckling Spring on IBM Model M = best*

*best if you like noise, tactile feedback, and a decent amount of force needed to press the key down
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

WASSHOI wrote:

N y a r u k o wrote:

I bought my BlackWidow a while ago because it didn't seem all that expensive compared to the other keyboards. It feels great, but when it came my spacebar was loose and kind of came off; afterwards I put it back on and its completely functional. My 1 key is easily removable as well, but still completely functional. Despite those complications, it's a great keyboard and worth the money
That's because Razor products are built in Chinese sweatshops and occasionally have build issues. My old keyboard was a Razor Arctosa and the left shift key's spring came out of place after about a month of use. Lots of Razor products have random build issues, from my personal experience as well as online testimonials.

Quickfire Rapids are Costar built, same company that makes other high quality mechanical keyboards such as Filcos. Only problem with Quickfire Rapid is their obnoxious logo placed all over the keyboard.
I broke a BlackWidow by hitting it once

RAZER = QUALITY
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers
From all the switches I've tried, I really prefer the brown. It feels as light as red ones, but feels tactile (not so much as blue, but almost), pretty much taking the best from both switches into one.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Wishy22 wrote:

Frizz925 wrote:

However the combination of their high actuation force and close operating/reset points make them easier for double tapping. I've tried Blacks myself and they're much better than Blues for me.

Also don't forget that val0108 uses Blacks too.
Black switches are HARD to press, which reduces your potential endurance.
I don't think the endurance hit is actually that noticeable personally but maybe that's because I have never tried blues. Really I think any mech KB will do. Me myself didn't notice any change between mech and rubber dome until a few days in, now I can't stand rubber domes.
WASSHOI
56 posts
Joined July 2010
WASSHOI

thelewa wrote:

I broke a BlackWidow by hitting it once

RAZER = QUALITY
Just saying, Razer isn't exactly known for quality builds. They advertise like hell to get their name around, and BlackWidow is actually a good keyboard, but it's always good to look at what competitors offer in the same price range. Rapid Fire overall receives better reviews all around with less complaints of defects and such.

If Rapid Fire was more expensive that BlackWidow (RF is actually slightly cheaper from some sellers), I'd have no issue going with the BlackWidow since it's not a bad keyboard.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Razer was really good back in the days when ball mice were popular, they were simply the best, and that's why they get so much attention. Today they are just crap, well not really, but surely overpriced.

Wishy22 wrote:

Black switches are HARD to press, which reduces your potential endurance.
It all depends on the person. Black switches really aren't that hard to press, atleast for me. And trust me, I can stream fairly well, as well as keep decent accuracy.

Tom94 also uses blacks I think, just saying.

In closing I just wanna say that if you want to buy a mech keyboard, be sure to FEEL all of the switch types before purchase. Some people were disappointed and then they just gave a certain mech switch a bad name, when in reality it's their error to not check what they are buying.
I tested blackwidow and steelseries 7g next to each other. I was much more comfortable with 7g. Just sayin'.
WASSHOI
56 posts
Joined July 2010
WASSHOI
Yeah, it's pretty much just preference. No switch is particularly better than the other, they're made to suit different tastes, but in the end if you get a certain switch that everyone states is the "best" and don't personally enjoy it then you're just missing out in the end. It's way I advised testing blue switches at a local electronic store with BlackWidow in stock.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Espionage724 wrote:

Buckling Spring on IBM Model M = best*

*best if you like noise, tactile feedback, and a decent amount of force needed to press the key down
I have those but I'd rather have blue switches since they are softer.

jesse, yes, they are.

lolcubes, Tom94 uses cherry black and has issues with long fast streams, I myself tried black switches and that's the result I got. Using softer switches = less force required = it takes longer for your fingers to get tired.

Thing on black and red switches is that you ALWAYS bottom out the switches, so it's kind of similar to using a random rubber-dome keyboard and there isn't really any need to develop any new kind of streaming/tapping technique. I'm saying that because of my personal experience with them. But then, when using blue/brown switches you gotta develop/get used to the technique that implies not to bottom out the key, which makes some players hate them since they never get used to that.

It is not a matter of preferences, black switches are harder to press and that has consequences, there's a reason why most top players use blue/brown/red switches and just a few use black. For the record, fastest/best streamers all use red/blue and some brown, but almost none use black, the only one I know is Tom94 who has a 6gv2 and as I said (he told me this) he can't really hold fast streams for long, his burst speed is fast but he gets tired of long streams. A single rare case isn't really proof of anything though since afaik he's circumstances are special (he played the piano for a decade and shit, meaning he pretty much worked out his fingers for a while already hah).
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Not bottoming out is very dodgy. You can get great potential speed with that, but we're still human, so in most cases that will backfire and will lead to accuracy loss or instability.

WASSHOI wrote:

but in the end if you get a certain switch that everyone states is the "best" and don't personally enjoy it then you're just missing out in the end.
Why is that? Since Cookiezi and Rucker play with a tablet, does that mean that anyone with a tablet will be as good as them? Ofcourse not. IIRC even Doomsday said that he tried tablet and didn't like it and went back to mouse. Everyone is different and noone is really missing out on anything here.

Wishy22 wrote:

long fast streams
I think everyone has a problem with those. :>
Not trying to be mean or anything, just saying. It's all about the training and experience really. I haven't tried reds but I am afraid that I wouldn't like them because they are too soft for my taste (I guess?). Even blacks feel quite light once you get used to them. Now, I am not saying that black is the best, I am just saying that I am most comfortable with them. I really don't like blues and part of the reason is stated at the top of this post. I came from a flat scissor switch keyboard, and trust me, while they are decent for accuracy, they are a real pain to stream with.

Wishy22 wrote:

Tom94 who has a 6gv2 and as I said (he told me this) he can't really hold fast streams for long, his burst speed is fast but he gets tired of long streams. A single rare case isn't really proof of anything though since afaik he's circumstances are special (he played the piano for a decade and shit, meaning he pretty much worked out his fingers for a while already hah).
Fun fact, exactly the same here. :P Except that I have a 7G, because 6GV2 is like impossible to get here haha.

tldr; I don't like blues because of my first sentence in this post, and I am afraid that reds (although highly unavailable here) would be too light for me, because streaming is not everything I would be doing with them.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
But still, softer switches = less effort required = better endurance, which in the end is just a good help if you can get used to it.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Completely true and agreed with.
Frizz
4,131 posts
Joined April 2011
Frizz

Wishy22 wrote:

Frizz925 wrote:

However the combination of their high actuation force and close operating/reset points make them easier for double tapping. I've tried Blacks myself and they're much better than Blues for me.

Also don't forget that val0108 uses Blacks too.
Black switches are HARD to press, which reduces your potential endurance.
Blue switches are HARDER to press thanks to its tactile clicky nature, it requires the user to put it in a lot more force into them before they actually reach their actuation point. Leave alone the peak force of both switches.

And just wanted to add that you don't always need tactility to not bottom-out, if you know the right force needed to register keys without bottoming-out that is.
Last edited by Frizz , edited 3 times in total.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
I don't always bottom out on my cherry blacks or white alps. I don't really like the white alps, since the actuation point seems to be at 0.5 mm, before the click.

I only bottom out on things I hold, not really on streams or when typing.

scissor switches imo are the best to stream fast with. you need that low bottom to single tap 180 bpm 1/4ths.
Pacemaker
106 posts
Joined May 2012
Topic Starter
Pacemaker
Thanks everyone. In the end, I think I'll just get the BlackWidow. I was testing the keys at a store earlier, and I really liked them, so I really don't see why not.

WASSHOI wrote:

If you're getting BlackWidow, might I also recomend you look into Cool Master Quickfire Rapid, a great competitor for the BlackWidow.

If you really want reds, then there's also a slightly more expensive red switch version of it too.
Looks neat, but unfortunately, those aren't available anywhere in Germany, so the shipping costs could end ub being quite a pain lol

Wishy22 wrote:

But still, softer switches = less effort required = better endurance, which in the end is just a good help if you can get used to it.
I can't really tell if the Blues are any softer than the Blacks, since the clicking mechanism supposedly makes it harder. Also, I have yet to play a song that really has my finger-fatigue kick in, but I know for a fact that eventually this will be the case, and because of that I'm a bit scared of getting Blacks.
WASSHOI
56 posts
Joined July 2010
WASSHOI

lolcubes wrote:

WASSHOI wrote:

but in the end if you get a certain switch that everyone states is the "best" and don't personally enjoy it then you're just missing out in the end.
Why is that? Since Cookiezi and Rucker play with a tablet, does that mean that anyone with a tablet will be as good as them? Ofcourse not. IIRC even Doomsday said that he tried tablet and didn't like it and went back to mouse. Everyone is different and noone is really missing out on anything here.
I worded this wrongly. What I meant was you are the only one missing out in the end (because you purchased switches that you're not comfortable with just because everyone said they're "the best.")
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Frizz925 wrote:

Blue switches are HARDER to press thanks to its tactile clicky nature, it requires the user to put it in a lot more force into them before they actually reach their actuation point. Leave alone the peak force of both switches.

And just wanted to add that you don't always need tactility to not bottom-out, if you know the right force needed to register keys without bottoming-out that is.
Wrong.

Blacks: Actuation Force: 60g (40g-80g overall) (Force Diagram)
Blues: Actuation Force: 45g (55g Peak Force) (Force Diagram)

And of course it doesn't mean 45+55.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

lolcubes wrote:

WASSHOI wrote:

but in the end if you get a certain switch that everyone states is the "best" and don't personally enjoy it then you're just missing out in the end.
Why is that? Since Cookiezi and Rucker play with a tablet, does that mean that anyone with a tablet will be as good as them? Ofcourse not. IIRC even Doomsday said that he tried tablet and didn't like it and went back to mouse. Everyone is different and noone is really missing out on anything here.
as far as I remember, Doomsday liked the gameplayfeeling of a tablet, but he was really bad with it, so he only would use it for funpurposes.

On Topic: I found the Coolermaster CM Storm Quickfire Pro for 85€, which is relatively cheap for a keyboard with red switches.I actually kinda think about buying it.
RusselG
RusselG
bottom out or remain scrub

also blues
val0108
1,430 posts
Joined January 2010
val0108
Black switch is my best!!
Nessuka
259 posts
Joined June 2012
Nessuka
Yeah, I'm buying a new mechanical keyboard soon, and I want to get a somewhat cheap-ish but good for the money keyboard, so before you all tell my to get a razer blackwidow, I'd like to clear up some things.

1. I'm looking for at best a keyboard with Cherry Red MX switches.
2. Low profile keys if possible (less switch travel distance above the main frame).

I'm not keen on going with Razer because they do not meet those requirements really and I've heard they aren't the best for general use too.

So yeah, if anyone could point me in the right direction here, I'd be very greatful.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
I use a meka g1. Uses black switches though so not sure you would want one. It's worked fine for me, arm rest is really handy and no shitty ass rave light bullshit. It was delivered rather fast aswell (UK here).

Really I can't say for certain whether blacks are better than reds; I'll probably try reds in the future. I doubt I'm a special case that can stream amazingly well with little problems whilst using blacks but it does appear that most extreme streamers don't use blacks. There was another topic on this about a week ago, let me find it.

here: t/92602
Frizz
4,131 posts
Joined April 2011
Frizz
ITT: Mechanical keyboards

Also any and all MX Cherry switches have the same travel distance. And I heard mechanical keyboards which use MX Cherry Red are harder to find compared to any other switches.

On a side note, I don't even think that this thread belongs to General Development.
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