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Romanisation of Hokkien songs

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Topic Starter
mintong89
Unlike Mandarin and Cantonese, Hokkien Chinese characters has not been standardized nor taught in school at most Hokkien area. Even though Ministry of Education (Taiwan) published recommended Hokkien characters at 2007, there are still many Taiwanese or Hokkien singers uses different characters or Mandarin equivalent for its meaning that will cause problem when comes to romanisation.

Let me give some examples for variant form problem:

  1. The song 天黑黑 (Tian Hei Hei in Mandarin) is one of the popular Taiwanese/Hokkien folk songs, but it often written as 天黑黑 (Thian Hek Hek) because of Mandarin influences while the actual Chinese characters for it should be 天乌乌 (Thinn Oo-oo) (Ministry of Education recommend it too). Now the problem arise, should we use the pronunciation of Chinese characters from title (Thian Hek Hek) or should we use actual pronunciation from the song (Thinn Oo-Oo)?

    Just a quick reminder: Chinese characters in Hokkien contains two, or sometimes more types of readings. It mostly categories in two types: vernacular and literary. For example the character 天, Thinn is the vernacular readings and Thian is literary readings. This is one of the reason that makes Hokkien complicated.
  2. There is a qualified map recently that also have this problem too. The word 塊 in 風塊哭 is one of the popular variant form to write the sound “leh” (its meaning is “in the process of; currently”). But, because of Ministry of Education (Taiwan) recommend instead of 塊, so if you search 塊 in the dictionary, it only shows pronunciation which is mapper used. This is incorrect because:
    1. The pronunction tè for 塊 It is 代替字 (Borrowed character) because they don’t know actual Chinese character for it, so they used Mandarin equivalent.
    2. The 塊 (tè) meaning is “piece; chunk; lump; part”, which did not give meaning for 塊 in song title 風塊哭. But 塊 (leh, variant form of 咧) does.
      While if you search 咧 in dictionary and look inside the description, it shows 塊 as one of the variant form. I also want to point out that 塊 (tè) and 塊 (leh) don’t share same origin at all.
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Aside from variant form problem, there are also dialectial problem too. Although Ministry of Education (Taiwan) published the dictionary, it generally just cover dialects in Taiwan and mostly used 高雄音 and 台北音 as main entry, it means songs might sing in other dialect that we need to find many sources (For me, wiktionary is the best website) to find for actual pronunciation/romanisation.

  1. For example, there is a lyric 人生短短 in song 欢喜就好 (Huann Hi Tio Ho) by Chen Lei. The singer sings “lîn-sing tér-tér” instead of “lîn-sing té-té” but Ministry of Education (Taiwan) only include té when search 短 on dictionary (yes, they have list in dialectial lists but generally people will ignore it). So, what should we use then?
Anyway, what I want to say is romanisation of Hokkien songs is complicated compare to Mandarin. It should depends on situation (variant form of Chinese characters, dialectial pronunciations etc.) that need confirm by many experienced Hokkien speaker but not just rigidly search for its pronunciation/romanisation (which can be easily get mistake because of more types of reading) from dictionary.
pishifat
i think most people (myself included) have no understanding of this topic, so it's really hard to contribute. is there a rule you want to propose? right now you're saying that there's a problem with some type of song being romanized, but now how to romanize it
Topic Starter
mintong89

pishifat wrote:

i think most people (myself included) have no understanding of this topic, so it's really hard to contribute. is there a rule you want to propose? right now you're saying that there's a problem with some type of song being romanized, but now how to romanize it
tl;dr
Hokkien word cannot be romanised by only follow blindly pronunciation of its word in dictionary without further confirmation, but need to based on how singer sing it with confirmation from few Hokkien speakers.


Example:

天黑黑
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bapNQEEm6k at 0:22
thian-hek-hek × (If you search dictionary about its pronunciation word by word)
thinn-hek-hek × (If you search dictionary about its pronunciation word by word)
thinn-oo-oo ✔ (Actual pronunciation of song)

The actual word for 黑 is 烏, which is oo.

風塊哭
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMLnA44frlE at 1:31
hong-khuài-khok × (If you search dictionary about its pronunciation word by word)
hong-tè-khàu × (If you search dictionary about its pronunciation word by word)
hong-leh-khàu ✔ (Actual pronunciation of song)

The recommend (by Ministry of Education (Taiwan)) word for 塊 is 咧, which is leh.
[I type "正在" inside Mandarin equivalent section so I can find it.]

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This is happened because nobody get taught Hokkien formally, thus word can be misused.
How do I find pronunciation/get the romanization of the word?
1. Type the word inside Taiwanese dictionary, and see the pronunciation and meaning whether is correct or not.
2. Type Mandarin equivalent inside Taiwanese dictionary (对应华语), and see the pronunciation and meaning whether is correct or not. Usually misused/variety word will list in 异用字.
3. Type pronunciation straightly inside dictionary if you sure the pronunciation is correct, and see the meaning whether is correct or not.
4. Wiktionary/歌詞正字 are also great sources if cannot find on Taiwanese dictionary.

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I hope this can be understand, I'm really bad on explain everything omg.
pishifat
what makes a song "Hokkien"? i see lots of songs with chinese characters in their titles, but i don't know what makes them this special thing (or how mappers will know when this rule applies to their song)
Topic Starter
mintong89

pishifat wrote:

what makes a song "Hokkien"? i see lots of songs with chinese characters in their titles, but i don't know what makes them this special thing (or how mappers will know when this rule applies to their song)
Umm...Hokkien songs? Hokkien is a language like Cantonese...by, listening it?
pishifat
ok nice i didnt realize i was this retarded

how many hokkien song are ranked currently?
Topic Starter
mintong89
well very few :o but you can see most are recently maps and most recent is wrongly romanised, that's why I want to mention it
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/287251
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmaplist?q=hokkien&m=-1&r=0&g=0&la=0
pishifat
added a recommendation for contacting a native speaker im situations like this https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/2300
pishifat
merged
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