Hi~
It has been a long time that I wonder about taiko Ranking Criteria didn't mention about finisher usage that much. As an issue have been raised on this map and this map, clarifying this in the Ranking Criteria will make the mapper and the BN can understand more that which kind of finisher usage isn't allowed or not be able to count as suited for ranked.

I suggest changing from

osu!taiko Ranking Criteria - Kantan difficulty rules wrote:

If a 1/2 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and be followed by a rest moment. For songs that follow a swing beat, this limit is 1/3.

osu!taiko Ranking Criteria - Muzukashii difficulty rules wrote:

Finisher notes must not be used in any 1/4 patterns in this difficulty. These patterns are not suitable for this difficulty level.

to,

Adjustment- osu!taiko Ranking Criteria - Kantan difficulty rules wrote:

If a 1/2 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and be followed by a rest moment. Finisher notes must not be used in patterns as such. For songs that follow a swing beat, this limit is 1/3.

Addition- osu!taiko Ranking Criteria - Futsuu difficulty rules wrote:

If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and be followed by a rest moment. Finisher notes must not be used in patterns as such.

Adjustment- osu!taiko Ranking Criteria - Muzukashii difficulty rules wrote:

Finisher notes must not be used in any 1/4 patterns or faster in this difficulty. The finisher usage on these patterns is too complicated for the audience at this level.

Addition- osu!taiko Ranking Criteria - Oni difficulty rules wrote:

Finisher notes must not be used in any 1/6 patterns or faster in this difficulty. The finisher usage on these patterns is too complicated for the audience at this level.

Addition- osu!taiko Ranking Criteria - Oni difficulty rules wrote:

Finisher notes for 1/4 patterns in this difficulty must only be used at the end of that pattern. Placements other than this can disturb the readability for the audience at this level.

The number of the snapped on Kantan and Futsuu has been determined from the pattern that is faster than the usual difficulty but still acceptable to use which it is 1/2 on Kantan and 1/3 for Futsuu. This faster-than-usual pattern should be prevent from using finisher since it the pattern will be too much complicated for the audience at that level.

A continuous 1/4 finisher note pattern or faster may break the flow as they couldn't emphasize the prominent sounds due to the presence of connecting notes in both side which it makes finisher failed to do their job as a "note to emphasize the prominent sound". And, as we always allow to use the finisher note at the end of the pattern since it didn't disturb the visualization of the gameplay and still emphasize the prominent sound well. Using 1/4 finisher note at the end of the pattern is the exception for Oni difficulty.


Muzukashii difficulty still not allow since 1/4 pattern is a new pattern and pretty fast for the audience of this level, using a finisher in 1/4 pattern may strongly affect the readability of the audience. Consider that we have a guideline to convince the mapper to use monotone 1/4 pattern. I strongly believe that the pattern such as ddK will potentially disturb the readability for the audience at this level.

This is only a proposal. Therefore, not finalized yet.
That's all, any type of opinion/suggestion is welcome. :3

Quick response:

I find the addition for kantan a bit redundant with the "1/2 patterns need to be simplistic" portion of the existing RC.

So perhaps we can add that as an expansion of the already existing 1/2 pattern rule in the Kantan Rules.

Perhaps it can be rewritten as:

"If a 1/2 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and be followed by a rest moment. For songs that follow a swing beat, this limit is 1/3. A simple pattern is one with no finishers, <insert more here>."

Nepuri wrote:

Quick response:

I find the addition for kantan a bit redundant with the "1/2 patterns need to be simplistic" portion of the existing RC.

So perhaps we can add that as an expansion of the already existing 1/2 pattern rule in the Kantan Rules.

Perhaps it can be rewritten as:

"If a 1/2 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and be followed by a rest moment. For songs that follow a swing beat, this limit is 1/3. A simple pattern is one with no finishers, <insert more here>."

Sounds a bit redundant with the things you mentioned. But the proposal here is a "guidelines", not a "rule" like that one. This proposal aims for the guidelines since I think that this still can be broken in the lower BPM map like 1/2 finisher on Kantan for 90 BPM is still acceptable since it is totally equal to 180 BPM 1/1 finisher which is still not too much strain. Combine this together may not allow the mapper to use the finisher notes like in the mentioned case.
So, I wonder that separately writing it would be better hence.

Being concise about usage of finishes was the prime objective of the last RC revision to allow certain freedom, but as people tend to be doubtful about their suitability in respective difficulty, it would not be bad to make it clearer and more specific to guide mappers and probably BNs as well. There are few things to comment on the proposal above:

1. The mentioned rule in Muzukashii should stay instead of putting it into guidelines as finishes in 1/4 are too demanding for players who mastered Futsuu and start to learn 1/4 at the level. With what the heading of difficulty-specific RC stated, rhythm related guidelines and rules apply to approximately 180 BPM maps, so variables in maps with drastically lower BPM might be different. Therefore, "Finisher notes must not be used in any 1/4 patterns or faster in this difficulty. These patterns are not suitable for this difficulty level." is to be kept as a rule as it cannot be broken in most circumstances unless the song BPM is low like 90.
2. As the above is kept as a Muzukashii rule, it would be strange to have the clarification about the usage of finishes in the guidelines of Kantan to Oni. While as Nepuri pointed out the concern about redundancy caused by stating similar things in separate bullets, it would be better to expand the rule of Kantan (bullet 1), Futsuu (bullet 2) and Oni (bullet 3).
   1. If a 1/2 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and be followed by a rest moment. Finisher notes must not be used in patterns as such. For songs that follow a swing beat, this limit is 1/3.
   2. If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and be followed by a rest moment. Finisher notes must not be used in patterns as such.
   3. Finisher notes must not be used in any 1/6 patterns or faster in this difficulty. The finisher usage on these patterns is too complicated for the audience at this level.
3. The last two lines may be rephrased and put into the guidelines of Oni and Inner/Ura Oni respectively.
   1. Finisher notes for 1/4 patterns in this difficulty should only be used at the end of that pattern. Placements other than this can disturb the readability for the audience at this level.
   2. Finisher notes for patterns that are 1/4 or faster in this difficulty should only be used at the end of that pattern. Placements other than this can disturb the readability for the audience at this level.

a)

Please clarify how long are "rest moments" in bullet 1 and 2, since I, as a nominator, had problems with these rules being vague more than once...
so, "be followed by a x/x rest moment" NEEDS to be clarified.

It is NOT redundant, lacking this clarification only leads to interpretation errors since 5/2 and sometimes 2/1 ARE rest moments in Kantan, and 3/2 sometimes ARE rest moments in Futsuu.



b)

There's no actual problem on having multiple big notes on stream patterns that are 140 bpm or lower, so the 140 BPM marker should be used just as it is used for 1/6 in muzukashii.

Also, no point of saying "for the audience at this level" since there no higher level than this---

@Nardo

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:

Being concise about usage of finishes was the prime objective of the last RC revision to allow certain freedom, but as people tend to be doubtful about their suitability in respective difficulty, it would not be bad to make it clearer and more specific to guide mappers and probably BNs as well. There are few things to comment on the proposal above:

1. The mentioned rule in Muzukashii should stay instead of putting it into guidelines as finishes in 1/4 are too demanding for players who mastered Futsuu and start to learn 1/4 at the level. With what the heading of difficulty-specific RC stated, rhythm related guidelines and rules apply to approximately 180 BPM maps, so variables in maps with drastically lower BPM might be different. Therefore, "Finisher notes must not be used in any 1/4 patterns or faster in this difficulty. These patterns are not suitable for this difficulty level." is to be kept as a rule as it cannot be broken in most circumstances unless the song BPM is low like 90.
   Rules must not be broken under any circumstances. But here, as you give an example that this could still allow for the map like 90 BPM or slower. Writing this as a rule may restrain the mapper from using the finisher note in that case. Writing it as a guideline will give more freedom to the mapper for the example case. (Even though there is no one willing to map 90 BPM song or slower that much). Writing this as a rule will not allow a mapper to use a finisher for 1/4 pattern in any case, even for 90 BPM map or slower song since a rule must not be break in any circumstance.
   
2. As the above is kept as a Muzukashii rule, it would be strange to have the clarification about the usage of finishes in the guidelines of Kantan to Oni. While as Nepuri pointed out the concern about redundancy caused by stating similar things in separate bullets, it would be better to expand the rule of Kantan (bullet 1), Futsuu (bullet 2) and Oni (bullet 3).
   1. If a 1/2 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and be followed by a rest moment. Finisher notes must not be used in patterns as such. For songs that follow a swing beat, this limit is 1/3.
   2. If a 1/3 pattern is used, the patterns must stay simplistic and be followed by a rest moment. Finisher notes must not be used in patterns as such.
   3. Finisher notes must not be used in any 1/6 patterns or faster in this difficulty. The finisher usage on these patterns is too complicated for the audience at this level.
   
   As point 1 has been explained, this wouldn't be applied. But if any further discussion makes this become a rule, yes, it would be better to expand the rule in the way you've suggested.
3. The last two lines may be rephrased and put into the guidelines of Oni and Inner/Ura Oni respectively.
   1. Finisher notes for 1/4 patterns in this difficulty should only be used at the end of that pattern. Placements other than this can disturb the readability for the audience at this level.
   2. Finisher notes for patterns that are 1/4 or faster in this difficulty should only be used at the end of that pattern. Placements other than this can disturb the readability for the audience at this level.
   
   That's sound better on Oni difficulty. For Inner/Ura Oni difficulty, I wonder that we may need to rewrite it to be less strict. As some opinion for this proposal said that the current guideline for Inner/Ura Oni is too strict. And as an example given on this map. I think that rephrase the whole sentence to be vaguer would be better to give the freedom to the mapper as much as possible. I wonder that something like Finisher notes for patterns that are 1/4 or faster in this difficulty should be used cautiously. <insert some explanation here>. would be better. What do you think about this? Anyway, I made a change in this point in the way you've suggested, for now.

@_w6

_WWWWWW_WWWWWW_ wrote:

a)

Please clarify how long are "rest moments" in bullet 1 and 2, since I, as a nominator, had problems with these rules being vague more than once...
so, "be followed by a x/x rest moment" NEEDS to be clarified.

It is NOT redundant, lacking this clarification only leads to interpretation errors since 5/2 and sometimes 2/1 ARE rest moments in Kantan, and 3/2 sometimes ARE rest moments in Futsuu.
The rule that you mentioned is still related to the BPM things. Like 5/2 on Kantan for 120 BPM song is able to count as a decent rest. So clarifying this in the rule would be too much strict and give the mapper a lower choice of patterns in lower BPM song. If clarification is needed, the rule you've mentioned should be moved to guideline instead. So that it will be able to break this rule in some circumstances, such as for the low BPM song.


b)

There's no actual problem on having multiple big notes on stream patterns that are 140 bpm or lower, so the 140 BPM marker should be used just as it is used for 1/6 in muzukashii.
Yes, I also afraid that the current proposal is too harsh for the Inner Oni difficulty. I wonder that something like Finisher notes for patterns that are 1/4 or faster in this difficulty should be used cautiously. <insert some explanation here>. would be better. Writing in this way will still allow the mapper to use the multiple finishers but it must be reasonable enough. What do you think about this?

Also, no point of saying "for the audience at this level" since there no higher level than this---

@nep/nardo 1. about the rule thing that was not what was intended here but i dont remember why we put it as a rule anyways
2. I find myself struggling with the 'followed by a rest moment' part because sometimes the song doesn't fit the rest moment immediately after the hard pattern but at the start of the next phrase or something, I think that would be beneficial to clarify (if instead of just doing HARD PATTERN, FORCED REST - HARD PATTERN, normal pattern, reasonable rest would also be fine)

as for adding these things to futsuu, kantan and oni I dont see any harm doing it
either that or get rid of the thing in muzu

as for the last two additions proposed by nardo i see little point in doing those or do you have use cases for oni diffs where ppl do that lol

nice and active thread:

Suggesting doing the following:










The rest moment respecting the song's intensity aims to allow for you to actually add a difficult pattern and then continue the pattern until you have a sensible place in the music to add the rest moment ensuring that the difficulty still makes sense for the patterns used

I dont think ura oni should have restrictions for this stuff as it seems detrimental to further develop high end difficulties and other off the board challenges if you have to justify them at every step you take

also i petition for the definition of rest moments for muzukashii difficulties to be changed to something more lenient other than 3/2, for example doing a lot of 1/1 like d d d k for a measure should count as a sufficient rest moment because the difficulty just dropped considerably.

Moving rules to guidelines is not practical. Rules are there for reasons and should stay as they are as mentioned previously. I will reply later when I have time.

mentioning snapping in rules defacto makes them guidelines already (as Tyistiana pointed out)

you can't scale it to 100 bpm while keeping the 1/2, 1/4 or 1/6 intact without it being a guideline

As I have reiterated, rules are there because of their relative importance and universal application with the condition of approximately 180 BPM. For example, NATs and BNs could disqualify a 170 bpm Futsuu that uses 1/4 patterns right away as it is a blatant violation of the difficulty-specific rule. In fact, the snap limit in each difficulty from Kantan to Oni should be regarded as the very basic definition of anticipated complexity, which is an essential concept in Taiko mapping to maintain reasonable spread. The proposal here is about clarifying finisher usage, so let us stay on the topic without disturbing the established rule-guideline delineation.

I know all that, but the flexibility in regards to speed fits the definition of what a guideline is much better

I have nothing to add, really. I strongly support Nardo's stance in the post where he suggested bullet merges, et cetera.

Updated the proposal

1. Moved from guidelines to rules instead except Inner Oni difficulty proposal
   

   Tyistiana wrote:

   For Inner Oni difficulty, I put this as a guideline instead since there is the map like this one got ranked while it using 1/4 KDKDKDKDK pattern. Some of continuous 1/4 pattern usage may potentially emphasize the music better. Another good example would be this map that the usage of continuous 1/4 pattern will potentially emphasize the intensity of the music.
   
   This proposal for Inner Oni difficulty has been written in order to discourage the pattern such as kkDkk or DkkkDkkkD pattern.

   
   Therefore, some of the continuous 1/4 finisher pattern or faster is acceptable from my opinion and we shouldn't enforce this as a rule to allow such a pattern usage in some case.
2. Rewording the proposal to reduce the redundancy as Nardoxyribonucleic and Nepuri has suggested.

added in https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/2453/

will leave it pending for any last minute discussion

Finisher notes for patterns that are 1/4 or faster in this difficulty should only be used at the end of that pattern. Placements other than this may disturb the readability for the audience at this level.

Okay, I don't even know where to start. So what is the problem here? Overlaps? Why is the problem the finisher being *midstream* the problem them? Why do you not resolve the problem around notes simply overlapping too much? Why does it only concern finishers overlapping something? What's with high SV finishers that don't overlap anything? Whats with streams without finishers that are put to 0.1x SV?

Also why would you discourage DkkkDkkkD or anything that has a finisher in a stream that is of the opposite colour? because it's uncomfortable? unheard of? plays bad? These are all no reasons. Also why do you not encourage these? What's the reason you want this to be discouraged? because people suck at using it properly? Because you don't like this pattern? What are you trying to do here?
Something being "too complicated" or "too hard" or "too bad" are not able to withstand serious argumentation because these are just judgements that have no backing. The entire thread does not explain *why* any of these things are uncomfortable, why it is discouraged or tries to avoid a problem (overlaps) by not actually pinpointing down the problem itself but just polices around techniques that are more likely to cause this problem.

Also what is that audience at Inner/Ura Oni? The highest tier? Isn't the entire point of this difficulty tier to challenge the highest tier? What is that even? I am like absolutely baffled that nobody even noticed how this doesn't even make a shred of sense.

Well, perhaps leaving Inner Oni without any guidelines is better as it will grant freedom to the highest difficulties' mappers.

Besides, a guideline isnt that necessary to identify when 1/4+finishers is used in a bad manner, so yea, inner doesnt really need the guideline.

Loctav wrote:

Finisher notes for patterns that are 1/4 or faster in this difficulty should only be used at the end of that pattern. Placements other than this may disturb the readability for the audience at this level.

Okay, I don't even know where to start. So what is the problem here? Overlaps? Why is the problem the finisher being *midstream* the problem them? Why do you not resolve the problem around notes simply overlapping too much? Why does it only concern finishers overlapping something? What's with high SV finishers that don't overlap anything? Whats with streams without finishers that are put to 0.1x SV?

The problem isn't really overlapping, or at least not that often, unless the SVs/BPMs are set really low then finishers shouldn't end up overlapping other notes (making them essentially invisible at a first glance), the problem, at least in my opinion, is the saturation that comes with the over-usage of finishers, finishers should be used to emphasize on strong notes & sounds throughout a song, using them too much ends up making maps sound obnoxiously loud and pretty much kills the attempt of emphasis in my opinion, you want them to stand out, adding way too many of them ends up making them just generic notes that you have to hit with 2 keys.

Also why would you discourage DkkkDkkkD or anything that has a finisher in a stream that is of the opposite colour? because it's uncomfortable? unheard of? plays bad? These are all no reasons. Also why do you not encourage these? What's the reason you want this to be discouraged? because people suck at using it properly? Because you don't like this pattern? What are you trying to do here?
Something being "too complicated" or "too hard" or "too bad" are not able to withstand serious argumentation because these are just judgements that have no backing. The entire thread does not explain *why* any of these things are uncomfortable, why it is discouraged or tries to avoid a problem (overlaps) by not actually pinpointing down the problem itself but just polices around techniques that are more likely to cause this problem.

Yes, we discourage them because they're uncomfortable, unheard of and because they play bad, these ARE reasons as to why we don't use them and as to why we discourage the usage of them in that manner, people don't like them, thus we don't use them, it's really simple.
There's no rule that stops people from overusing them and achieving bad user ratings though.

Also, you seem to be asking many questions but have you bothered to look for the answer to these yourself? Have you asked taiko players why they dislike finishers in the middle of the streams? Have you asked people what is so uncomfortable about hitting them? It's not all that hard to put some effort into researching a bit about it, especially since in-game chat is a thing and lets you communicate with pretty much any taiko player connected at the moment.

As I said, nothing stops you from overusing them, we discourage them because the public doesn't really like them at all, overusing them will most likely lead up to the mapset getting bombarded with bad ratings, and thus, it is inherently labeled as bad mapping by most mappers.

That's why I tell new/upcoming mappers that using finishers mid-stream is not the best idea, it's a path that someone inexperienced with mapping should never take because it would end up doing more harm than good to them.

So the problem is too many concurrent finishers being rowed up? If yes, then make the rule about that. Your first paragraph does not explain why it would be necessary to discourage midstream finishers or any finisher in the first place, because the guidelines affects a SINGULAR dddddK too. If you want to have oversaturation be regulated, then design a guideline that resolves around too many finishers being cluttered together closely.
If you are concerned about finishers not being used properly to emphasize specific sounds, then make the guideline around emphasis (I dont think that's very smart either because it is a mapper's choice how and what to emphasize and the modding process' task to figure out whether this works or not)

Also, again, a reminder to you and many others out there that seem to have forgotten what RANKING CRITERIA items are about. They do NOT exist to discourage specific ways of mapping. They do not EXIST to discourage something just because a public mainstream belives that something is bad or because people don't like it. That's not how this works. That's not how this should ever work.

I am asking a lot of questions that are concerning the ranking criteria. The public taste, the people's opinion on what is good or what is bad MUST NOT influence the Ranking Criteria. This is not it's purpose or what it should be designed around.
And yes, I have asked players why they dislike it and they were 99% telling me that this is "uncomfortable" or basically told me they don't like them because they don't like them. That's not a valid reason to forbid a map to be designed around that. It is also the mapper's choice to map something people may not like playing. Some people might though? It's not like every Ranking map must be a popular mainstream hit, in fact, that's what would eventually kill off interest and progress in mapping, if everything would be designed around conformity to the mass. Yes, people don't like them and thus you don't use them. That's your choice. Don't put your choice on top of others who do not particularily care about user ratings or mapping things that are hard but comfortable, but want to map things that are hard and getting people way off their comfort zone.

You tell me that nothing stops me from overusing them, however the RC clearly tells me that I would be violating some guideline if I do so. Why does it do that? Why would I need to justify a just design? The RC does not specify the range on which my design is flawed, it does just tell me that it is. And it does not tell me why it is. And it does not tell me when it is not. The map is not broken. It just contains elements that people don't like.

The entire portion of telling new mappers to not do that and people not liking it and people not wanting this Ranked because it is poorly used is part of the modding and review loop and under the jurisdiction of the individual Beatmap Nominator to evaluate and approve with their expertise. The Ranking Criteria can not do this job for them.

Imo, mid stream finishers are pretty gimmicky and would belong in the loved maps section rather than the ranked maps section, they can be fun though

From a recent poll a majority of users seem to agree the discouragement of mid-stream finishers on 1/4 or higher snaps without regard to bpm or other settings other than the gameplay view. https://twitter.com/faputaosh/status/1169899217151610881?s=21

In my opinion, there will be no harm for putting the wordings Tyistiana suggested into the guidelines of inner oni.

As long as OD and SV values provide an user-friendly or appropriate view to players, this guideline prevents suboptimal usage from rankable maps. One point to stress is that by user-friendly, getting users adapted into the overlapping notes by training them with highly-overlap, but not inconsistent usage, makes its way away from being suboptimal quality as well.

A relative case to this potential guideline is the base SV guideline where it establishes 1.4 or 1.6’s gameplay view as a standard. This upcoming guideline can establish user’s (as well as BNs) standard when confronting mid-stream finishers on 1/4 or higher snaps.

Another example is the rest moment guidelines. It establishes the mapping density of relative difficulties such that users set their difficulties around the break suggestions. Sometimes flexible, having alternative methods of lowering the note density.

A guideline refers to an information intended to advise people on how something should be done or what something should be. In a nutshell, it is an advise to mappers. Mappers can absorb the information from it but violate it with respective explanations which can prove that their usage get along with the music with integrity, and at the same time, appropriate for the gaming.

After I reconsider about this, I decide to remove the guidelines on Inner Oni difficulty.

Loctav wrote:

Also, again, a reminder to you and many others out there that seem to have forgotten what RANKING CRITERIA items are about. They do NOT exist to discourage specific ways of mapping. They do not EXIST to discourage something just because a public mainstream belives that something is bad or because people don't like it. That's not how this works. That's not how this should ever work.

I admit that this is valid. The way that Ranking Criteria write should not discourage specific ways of mapping especially top difficulty. If any nominator/nat member disagrees in such a specific way of mapping, they should do a "veto" instead of using Ranking Criteria and say that it is wrong. Not using a finisher during the middle of 1/4 stream pattern or faster is just only "common practice". Ranking Criteria shouldn't influence someone's mapping style.

I sincerely apologize if this causes anyone any inconvenience.

What Faputa added. It is completely fine to keep the guideline in Inner Oni as it could be regarded as a pragmatic advice to mappers regarding pattern readability/playability and might be broken under exceptional circumstances.

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:

as a pragmatic advice to mappers regarding pattern readability/playability and might be broken under exceptional circumstances.

Maybe just write a mapping guide then. Implementing rules and guidelines that must be elaborated upon violation or can not be violated at all into a Ranking Criteria is not the right place to tell (beginner) mappers the ins and outs of mapping.

Well, after discussion with Faputa, he seems to be on board with not adding any guidelines to Inner Oni.

I dont think it is necessary to add it either because Finishers mid-stream can be modded out easily if they are executed badly.

Otherwise i believe we all agree the rest of the additions are fine, no?

I still think that the Inner Oni guideline in question would not cause discouragement of specific ways to arrange finishes as long as you have reasonable grounds for using such arrangements despite the hindrance to readability and playability. However, to facilitate the update of the rules from Kantan to Oni, let us put the guideline on hold at this moment.