Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Mapping Discussion
  4. Ranking Criteria
  5. Finalized/Denied Amendments

Move the "A difficulty's name must be unrelated to a username" rule to guidelines

posted
Total Posts
28
Nifty
902 posts
Joined September 2014
Topic Starter
Nifty
"A difficulty's name must be unrelated to a username. Guest difficulties, however, may indicate possession with its creators' username or nickname. (e.g. Guest Creator's Insane). Words that happen to be usernames are acceptable within difficulty names as long as they relate to the song."

This is a proposal to move this general rule to a guideline due to several QATs determining that it can be broken under circumstances. One of these circumstances is that the map is part of a series of maps. The evidence supporting this change is the dozens of already existing maps that adhere to a series, such as "Outer Oni," "Taikovic," "Dysthymia," and "Raidcore." All of these are often unrelated to the map, but have several ranked difficulties of each.

More support for this change is in a recent issue thread, where two QATs determined that breaking this rule is fine (as well as in every instance of the examples mentioned before). I think that it's important that things that are rules should follow the sentiment of "they are not guidelines and may not be broken under any circumstance" to avoid confusion determining which rules can be broken and which rules can't (this concept should not exist under the current definition of a rule).

Switching this very often broken rule to a guideline will eliminate the possibility if people interpreting other rules as breakable when, in fact, they are not.
yuki_momoiro722
432 posts
Joined October 2015
yuki_momoiro722
I kinda... understand this rule, but since I looked up on other diffs regarding this one is likely to be fine, but I'm amazed that we have seldom use of diffnames on it and I'm not sure about this rule, so it's a maybe for me.
Last edited by yuki_momoiro722 , edited 4 times in total.
DeletedUser_1981781
DeletedUser_1981781
No need to move it. It is a rule with exceptions, in any case, the exceptional cases should be added.
Nifty
902 posts
Joined September 2014
Topic Starter
Nifty

_WWWWWW_WWWWWW_ wrote:

No need to move it. It is a rule with exceptions, in any case, the exceptional cases should be added.


my point is that there have already been exceptions for so many different cases that writing in one kind of exception into a rule would still have some maps breaking the rule. It would be easier just to move it to guidelines so that all exceptions can exist. Also, the interpretation of such exception may vary mapper to mapper, qat to qat, and cause confusion.
Last edited by Nifty , edited 1 time in total.
semaphore
881 posts
Joined April 2015
semaphore
yea i can get down wit dis
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
a rule with exceptions is a guideline. anyway, for "outer oni", it is not the same cuz it's along the lines of "ultra beginner" or "very hard"
i have no clue what dysthymia is but the rest are pretty much username related, other examples of this would be nold's posthumous diffname, sotarks's melancholy, etc. so yeah it should probably just be a guideline since it clearly isn't enforced, and honestly it shouldn't be a rule OR a guideline (because it isn't enforced).
DeletedUser_1981781
DeletedUser_1981781
Outer Oni is a pun on Inner Oni, unrelated to the song. Outer doesn't really tells someone who is not familiar with the game "this is harder than oni", and has no backup in any game.

But it falls under these exceptions since these are part of a series of "difficult stuff mapped by Ayyri".
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
If it isn't even enforced at all anymore, then it should move to guidelines. I thought the whole point of separating rules vs guidelines is that rules have to be enforced no matter what. No exceptions. Although I'm pretty indifferent if it's a rule or guideline.
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan
It makes a lot of sense to move it to guidelines if it is not being enforced anymore.

Otherwise, if there are clear exceptions to the rule which are already finalized, but only not yet published, they should be added to the rule as soon as possible, to prevent further misunderstanding. The exceptions should also be made clear such that each and every member of the community should understand whether the their difficulty name falls inside of the exceptions, such that it is not necessary to search for a member of QAT for explanation.
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,252 posts
Joined July 2013
Ascendance
just stop trying to force diffnames on things that have 0 relation to whatever you're trying to force on it. is it so hard to be normal? the word "frozen" has absolutely zero relation to usao wubstep remix #30 so why is it being used? you can say anything is a part of a "series" if you want to. we had this in ctb with the diff name "wilderness" related to a user and we disallowed it because it was being used on maps that just had no correlation at all to what he was using as a diffname. outer oni still is a play on a standardized level of difficulty, just like "kumanoverdose" in ctb for example. raidcore, frozen, etc have clear relations to usernames without relation to the song and shouldn't be allowed. things like melancholy or cataclysm (two of sotarks's diff names) have relation to the song, or to the band in general, which allows that to be acceptable.
Annabel
Beatmap Nominator
565 posts
Joined October 2013
Annabel

Nao Tomori wrote:

a rule with exceptions is a guideline.


agree with this
Greenshell
Beatmap Nominator
328 posts
Joined July 2016
Greenshell
yeah move that to guidelines please
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
UndeadCapulet

eiri- wrote:

Nao Tomori wrote:

a rule with exceptions is a guideline.
agree with this
to elaborate on this, we're generally trying to standardize most guidelines into being "rules with expressly stated instances where the exceptions will be made". most recent rc changes have had this format.

moving this to guidelines so ppl can use an adjective related to their username or wtfever would pretty much make this guideline totally useless. we should avoid "moving outdated rules to guidelines so we can just totally ignore them" at all times, it just causes more cleanup later.

we should just remove the rule altogether instead, it was added at a time when star rating was actually useless, but now our sr's are usually pretty telling of what difficulty a map is so there's no real reason to keep it other than "some people didn't like username-only diffnames", which isn't a very good reason.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
iirc, it was added when difficulties weren't very clear, regardless of star rating. It wasn't always the hardest difficulties getting custom names, but even easier ones.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
@UndeadCapulet: It existed because one) peppy hated the idea to use the own username not altered as difficulty name and second) to prevent sets like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/32726. A map in the time when this was discussed was unranked because of these circumstances.

this was less because of the poor SR calculations at this time, this was additionally included in the reasoning but not the major reason.
Last edited by Stefan , edited 1 time in total.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
if i named a difficulty "pishi" or "pishifat", it wouldn't be valid for ranking. if people are talking about stuff like pishInsane not being enforced as unrankable, i can understand editing the rule accordingly, but removing it entirely makes the first case okay, which shouldn't happen

im not sure how melancholy/posthomus/frozen etc are related to the rule either. they're not related to a username, they're just used by certain users frequently
Ideal
Nomination Assessment Team
629 posts
Joined January 2014
Ideal
just my 2 centavos

pishifat wrote:

im not sure how melancholy/posthomus/frozen etc are related to the rule either. they're not related to a username, they're just used by certain users frequently

the first two are correct, but the example pointed out in the original post is a more delicate case since the mapper’s name directly relates to it (ice -> frozen) while it has no relation to the song itself — which is why the topic is being brought up in the first place

i’d be ok with either tweaking the rule to adapt it to the guideline criteria UC has mentioned. i don’t see a need to fully kill it, but rather just modify it enough, as it would still prevents mappers from doing as Stefan mentioned but would also allow for more freedom on diff name-ign relation (and “map series” stuff as mentioned before)

also as a follow up to this paragraph UC said (that i can’t directly quote for some reason)
we should just remove the rule altogether instead, it was added at a time when star rating was actually useless, but now our sr's are usually pretty telling of what difficulty a map is so there's no real reason to keep it other than "some people didn't like username-only diffnames", which isn't a very good reason

i’d just like to bring up this set: https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/87547#osu/253980

there’s no way of knowing which is the harder diff even with the current sr because of the mapper’s different mapping styles. it’s not weak reasoning at all.

if we’re going by checking sr we might aswell take Hollow Wings’ Kikoku Doukoku Jigokuraku and pitch it against whatever the most popular 5* farm map is right now while naming their respective diffs the mapper’s name (i’m aware it’s a kinda extreme example but that’s my point) it’ll be clear that it won’t make any sense to not keep this as at least a guideline

(last edit cuz 11 is an ugly number and wtf thats a lot of edits)
Last edited by Ideal , edited 12 times in total.
Nifty
902 posts
Joined September 2014
Topic Starter
Nifty

pishifat wrote:

if i named a difficulty "pishi" or "pishifat", it wouldn't be valid for ranking. if people are talking about stuff like pishInsane not being enforced as unrankable, i can understand editing the rule accordingly, but removing it entirely makes the first case okay, which shouldn't happen

im not sure how melancholy/posthomus/frozen etc are related to the rule either. they're not related to a username, they're just used by certain users frequently


possibly revising the rule to be able to be related, but not use direct parts of one's name? But there exists difficulties such as Raidcore (Raiden's map series thing) that may still be an exception to that rule. The rule covers such a broad range which is why I think it would be better as a guideline.

Idealism wrote:

i’d just like to bring up this set: https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/87547#osu/253980


bruh this map is from 2013 lol
Last edited by Nifty , edited 1 time in total.
Ideal
Nomination Assessment Team
629 posts
Joined January 2014
Ideal

Nifty wrote:

Idealism wrote:

i’d just like to bring up this set: https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/87547#osu/253980


bruh this map is from 2013 lol

yea thats exactly why i brought it up lo it does exactly the opposite of what uc said and exactly what stefan said
Last edited by Ideal , edited 1 time in total.
Nifty
902 posts
Joined September 2014
Topic Starter
Nifty
So, to be clear, topdiffs don't need to have any relation to the song or music or theme whatsoever now, since that's what is being allowed?
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,252 posts
Joined July 2013
Ascendance
Been talking about this stuff internally so I guess here we go. Here's some stuff I've gathered from our discussions and I guess what we can look to do moving forward:

- Moving it to guidelines is a problem because unless we know when to enforce it, it might as well not be there at all
- Leaving the decision to the NAT will lead to inconsistent decisions, which as we've seen lately, have not gone over well with the community


The best way to go about it is to draw a clear line and not take the rule so literally I guess. Something like this might work?

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Difficulty names must not solely consist of usernames. Words that happen to be usernames are acceptable as difficulty names as long as they relate to the song.


and then moving the other one to

Ranking Criteria wrote:

A beatmapset host cannot indicate possession in a difficulty's name. Conflicts caused by beatmapping multiple songs with the same metadata and collaborative difficulties are the only exceptions. Guest difficulties, however, may indicate possession with its creators' username or nickname. (e.g. Guest Creator's Insane).


edit: both would be rules btw
Last edited by Ascendance , edited 1 time in total.
Spkz
Global Moderator
163 posts
Joined July 2013
Spkz

Ascendance wrote:

The best way to go about it is to draw a clear line and not take the rule so literally I guess. Something like this might work?

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Difficulty names must not solely consist of usernames. Words that happen to be usernames are acceptable as difficulty names as long as they relate to the song.


and then moving the other one to

Ranking Criteria wrote:

A beatmapset host cannot indicate possession in a difficulty's name. Conflicts caused by beatmapping multiple songs with the same metadata and collaborative difficulties are the only exceptions. Guest difficulties, however, may indicate possession with its creators' username or nickname. (e.g. Guest Creator's Insane).


edit: both would be rules btw


I support this. I can't think of examples which could cause further issues under these changes
Last edited by Spkz , edited 1 time in total.
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
feel like you could also include something about custom names that are not explicitly usernames but are also completely unrelated to the song since it is more or less the same thing.
Ascendance
Elite Mapper
4,252 posts
Joined July 2013
Ascendance
Reworded something with Naxess:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Difficulty names must not solely consist of usernames. Words that happen to be usernames are acceptable as difficulty names as long as they relate to the song.


Ranking Criteria wrote:

A beatmapset host cannot indicate possession in the name of a difficulty (i.e. User's Insane). Conflicts caused by beatmapping multiple songs with the same metadata and collaborative difficulties are the only exceptions. Guest difficulties, however, may indicate possession with its creators' username or nickname.


edit: we're also going to separate the bottom part of this rule (starting with "Custom...") to be bolded and more clear

That should fix all of our problems in one go
Last edited by Ascendance , edited 3 times in total.
J1NX1337
248 posts
Joined February 2014
J1NX1337
I support this.

A mapset by Sotarks that has already been ranked would technically break the old rule "A difficulty's name must be unrelated to a username.", with the top diff called "Les vaches de Sotarks". All the diffnames in that mapset, however, are named thematically, and so I think that's completely fine. If we rephrase this rule to "Difficulty names must not solely consist of usernames.", it would prevent a lot of confusion with thematically named difficulties as well.

Also I don't think this will go against the rule "A beatmapset host cannot indicate possession in the name of a difficulty." either, as it's not the conventional kind of possession e.g. "User's Insane" that we know. As far as I know, the point is not to eliminate "possession" completely, but simply the use of the pattern "<x>'s <diff>" from the mapset host themselves. For clarification purposes, perhaps a clause could be added such as "A beatmapset host cannot indicate possession in the name of a difficulty, except for thematic naming purposes that make sense in the given context.".
Last edited by J1NX1337 , edited 2 times in total.
Nitroz
114 posts
Joined November 2014
Nitroz
what about old cases of this, such as iNiS980/iNiS201 (indicating EBA/Ouendan style) or something like KIRBY Mix/DaRRi MIx
this wouldn't really cause a lot of confusion since most people are probably playing the diffs because they are made by old mappers in that case
Spkz
Global Moderator
163 posts
Joined July 2013
Spkz

Nitroz wrote:

what about old cases of this, such as iNiS980/iNiS201 (indicating EBA/Ouendan style) or something like KIRBY Mix/DaRRi MIx
this wouldn't really cause a lot of confusion since most people are probably playing the diffs because they are made by old mappers in that case


I believe you could easily justify those cases (if they'd ever happen ((X) Doubt)) under

J1NX1337 wrote:

except for thematic naming purposes that make sense in the given context.


Since these cases have always been such a great legacy in osu!'s history (basically everyone knows what's going on), I think the context is given for "thematic naming purposes" for them.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
merged this change https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/posts/7048106
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1 / 28