Hello there!

After a recent situation involving a certain one of my maps, I've realised a strange case with one of the rules for Platters, which is made to restrict difficulty on platters, yet actually can result in them being harder, due to the work-around being rankable, and feeling fine for platter level, whereas the easier alternative, whilst definitely seen as fine for platter level, breaks a part of the current ranking criteria.

The RC currently reads as follows:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Basic hyperdashes may be used in conjunction with antiflow patterns. If used, the spacing must not exceed a distance snap of 1.2x the trigger distance and the movement after the hyperdash must be walkable.

However, a big issue in this comes from that part of the movement after the HDash to be walkable. The reason why this is an issue, is because in a specific case, where a HDash is followed by a basic dash (in this example, in a song between 120-240bpm), one fix that can be used is to make a 1/2 slider instead of a circle, so that instead of having a HDash followed by a basic dash, there is a HDash followed by a 1/2 slider (Which can still be antiflow), followed by a 1/2 dash (which is higher snapped in this difficulty).

As you can see, the issue with this is that whilst the movement becomes higher, because there's still the same reaction speed between the original movement and the note 1/1 after, yet a distance (which can actually be higher) from the note becomes rankable because a note was added, meaning a higher snapped dash is required, rather than the basic dash after the HDash that could be used if not for this rule.

My suggestion would be to change it to say as follows:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Basic hyperdashes may be used in conjunction with antiflow patterns. If used, the spacing must not exceed a distance snap of 1.2x the trigger distance and the movement after the hyperdash higher-snapped movements after the hyperdash must be walkable.

This wording change would allow the use of a basic dash after a basic HDash, which would allow for easier movements than one of the current best work arounds for this rule, which is supposed to make platter difficulties easier. Whilst bigger 1/1 dashes would obviously be difficult to hit for a platter player after a HDash, I feel this could easily be under the BNs discretion without being used to make difficulties exceed expected difficulty level for a platter, as with many other usages of dashes after HDashes in higher difficulties.

To summarise, this proposed change fixes a rule that, whilst intended to make the gap between salads and platters smaller, can actually make it bigger in some cases by restricting usage of easier alternatives to possible patterns.

I appreciate more buffs to platters as the playerbase pretty much evolves play skill overtime

ehhhhh im still under the impression that unless the map is super low bpm, 1/1 antiflow dashes shouldnt be allowed after a hyper period. Those dashes can be very large at times and can be super straining to the player

wonjae wrote:

ehhhhh im still under the impression that unless the map is super low bpm, 1/1 antiflow dashes shouldnt be allowed after a hyper period. Those dashes can be very large at times and can be super straining to the player

That's why I mentioned how, similar to cases in other difficulties, of course whether it is fitting for the difficulty with how it is done would be to BN discretion, and I feel a BN should safely be able to judge whether a dash is too bigly large for this difficulty quite confidently.

MBomb wrote:

wonjae wrote:

ehhhhh im still under the impression that unless the map is super low bpm, 1/1 antiflow dashes shouldnt be allowed after a hyper period. Those dashes can be very large at times and can be super straining to the player

That's why I mentioned how, similar to cases in other difficulties, of course whether it is fitting for the difficulty with how it is done would be to BN discretion, and I feel a BN should safely be able to judge whether a dash is too bigly large for this difficulty quite confidently.

To fix this could add a similar clause to "If used, the spacing must not exceed a distance snap of 1.2x the trigger distance and the movement after the hyperdash must be walkable.", but have it apply to the dash spacing instead of hdash spacing

chickenbible wrote:

To fix this could add a similar clause to "If used, the spacing must not exceed a distance snap of 1.2x the trigger distance and the movement after the hyperdash must be walkable.", but have it apply to the dash spacing instead of hdash spacing

Whilst this is a possible solution to avoid relying on BN discretion, I feel it's unnecessary to do, and also the trigger distance for a dash is highly more subjective and debated than trigger distance for a HDash, and can vary in definition from whether it looks like a dash, feels like a dash, or is literally not possible without dashing, so I feel this would cause a little unnecessary confusion.

I am not to sure if you're suggested "fix" in the opening post isn't just a clumsy workaround instead of a real fix. With that said, I cannot really say more about that specific case because I don't know the map where it occured xD. Maybe linking the map would be a nice addition to have some sort of context.

About the rule change itself: Seems ok for me, since both (hyperdash and dash afterwards) are basic ones. It seems reasonable enough to give Platter players that sort of "challenge" every now and then.

While I can agree with the idea behind the proposal, the concept of "higher-snapped movements" is unclear because in Platters you have both dashes and hyperdashes, each with their own threshold separating basic ones from higher-snapped ones.

Obviously, the proposal isn't referring to HDashes (since you can't trigger hyperwalks with the restrictions that exist in a Platter - anyway, this isn't something you should expect newer mappers to know and therefore is an unsuitable assumption for the RC), but referring to "gaps that would correspond to a higher-snapped dash must be walkable" (however, this is a bit wordy).

Since what you want to do is allow either walkable distances or basic dashes, I think it would be clearer if you're explicit about that. So I'd reword like:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Basic hyperdashes may be used in conjunction with antiflow patterns. If used, the spacing must not exceed a distance snap of 1.2x the trigger distance and the movement after the hyperdash must either be walkable or a basic dash.

Seems better than the first version to me!

If you want to use something like that, you might wanna commit to the rule side of things by stating what's disallowed rather than what's allowed, it would be less wordy. For example, instead of "the movement after the hyperdash must either be walkable or a basic dash", you could write "and cannot be a higher snapped dash" or something.

That being said, when I wrote this rule originally a while ago when I pushed it, I did not have adding another dash in mind. If this goes through, I would honestly consider reducing 1.2x -> 1.1x to at least give some additional leniency in the event that a dash is used following an antiflow pattern. While players have advanced, I do believe that there should still be some limitations to how far we can go on a platter, so while we've increased the amount of movements allowed on a difficulty like this, we could compensate by lowering the maximum allowed distance.

Ascendance wrote:

If you want to use something like that, you might wanna commit to the rule side of things by stating what's disallowed rather than what's allowed, it would be less wordy. For example, instead of "the movement after the hyperdash must either be walkable or a basic dash", you could write "and cannot be a higher snapped dash" or something.

That being said, when I wrote this rule originally a while ago when I pushed it, I did not have adding another dash in mind. If this goes through, I would honestly consider reducing 1.2x -> 1.1x to at least give some additional leniency in the event that a dash is used following an antiflow pattern. While players have advanced, I do believe that there should still be some limitations to how far we can go on a platter, so while we've increased the amount of movements allowed on a difficulty like this, we could compensate by lowering the maximum allowed distance.

The thing with reducing from 1.2x to 1.1x is that the requirement for basic and higher-snapped hyperdashes would be equal. An alternative would be to make the spacing requirement 1.1x if the HDash is followed by a dash and 1.2x if it's followed by a walk, but maybe that's too wordy or complicated.

(Double post) Hi!

In an attempt to move forward with the discussion about this rule change, I talked over this with Ascendance, deciding to incorporate his suggestion in the following way:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Basic hyperdashes may be used in conjunction with antiflow patterns. If used, the spacing must not exceed a distance snap of 1.2x the trigger distance if followed by a walkable movement, or 1.1x the trigger distance if followed by a basic dash.

If anyone has anything to add to or amend about this wording, please do so by 23:59 UTC+0, April 21, 2019. We will extend the time necessary if important discussion is ongoing.

Would just like to comment that after discussion yesterday, there was a bit of confusion on "1.2x" because people would see it as distance snap on the movement afterwards rather than the trigger distance, and we discussed that it'd be less confusing for it to say "1.2 times". It may also be best to do that with the 1.1x, changing it to 1.1 times.

merged