[Rule Change - osu!catch] Dashes after hypers in Rains · forum

Ascendance

Elite Mapper

Joined July 2013

Topic Starter

Ascendance 2018-12-21T06:07:28+00:00

All of this is in regards to Rain difficulties by the way.

Current Rule:

Ranking Criteria wrote:
Basic hyperdashes can't be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. If higher snapped hyperdashes are used, they must be used singularly (not in conjunction with other hyperdashes or dashes)

Proposition:

Ranking Criteria wrote:
Basic hyperdashes can't be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. If higher snapped hyperdashes are used, they must be used singularly (not in conjunction with other hyperdashes ~~or dashes~~)

Basically, I'd like to completely remove the "or dashes" part of this rule. No one ever follows it anyways and it ends up making potentially emphatic movements incredibly underwhelming. An argument could be made where dashes are too strong or edge dashes are made, but those are already protected in guidelines and strong dashes can be modded out.

Just trying to get rid of an annoying rule that no one really follows in the first place. Makes sense for Salads since players are way newer, but given the direction of Rains in the current meta, this rule is counterintuitive and should be treated as such.

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Update: January 4, 2019:

Ascendance wrote:
Here's the newly proposed rule, after discussion with ZiRoX:

Ranking Criteria wrote:
Basic hyperdashes can't be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. If higher snapped hyperdashes are used, they must not be used in conjunction with other hyperdashes or higher snapped dashes.
This now allows for the usage of basic dashes after hypers in Rain Difficulties.

Last edited by Ascendance 2019-01-05T03:22:12+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

wonjae

768 posts

Joined October 2014

wonjae 2018-12-21T06:12:08+00:00

i would still like to have the dash after a higher snapped hdash be atleast a guideline. there are many instances imo where the movement can still be very straining for a rain level player and is simply uneeded so putting limitations on it is ideal imo. i do agree though that noone enforces this rule so its probably better off doing this.

Last edited by wonjae 2018-12-21T06:12:29+00:00, edited 1 time in total.

Ascendance

Elite Mapper

4,252 posts

Joined July 2013

Topic Starter

Ascendance 2018-12-21T06:15:28+00:00

While I understand where you're coming from, I think it would be better left to the discretion of the Nominators to determine the acceptability of that. This is one of those things that's hard to measure with numbers. For the most part, the people who have been using this haven't had it pointed out at all, so there are already very few cases where a hard guideline would need to be applied.

Sanyi

236 posts

Joined November 2015

Sanyi 2018-12-21T19:13:47+00:00

Maybe disallowing higher snapped antiflow dashes after a higher snapped hyperdash? The current rule is prohibiting too much but I think it should be limited somehow.

Secre

osu!catch Champion / Nomination Assessment Team

402 posts

Joined January 2013

Secre 2018-12-21T19:27:57+00:00

Sanyi wrote:
Maybe disallowing higher snapped antiflow dashes after a higher snapped hyperdash? The current rule is prohibiting too much but I think it should be limited somehow.

Agree with this part. In the case that was pointed out in https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/769584/discussion/1618190/timeline#/698216, this pattern should be completely rankable and fine.

The distance between the higher snapped hdash and the dash is quite large, being a full 1/1 gap.

I'm not quite sure how to word this, but my suggestion for a solution would be to allow dashes after a higher snapped hdash in the case that the snapping of the place you want to put the dash is more than 2x the amount of the higher snapped hdash's snap.

Example would be, if you have a 1/4 hdash that qualifies as a higher snapped hdash, you would be allowed to have a dash after this if the gap was 3/4 for example, but not 1/2.

This would allow larger gap dashes to exist which are completely playable for a rain level player after a hdash. On the other hand, a 1/4 or even 1/2 gap dash after a 1/4 hdash isn't the easiest for a rain level player, and are much suited for overdose levels.

Ascendance

Elite Mapper

4,252 posts

Joined July 2013

Topic Starter

Ascendance 2018-12-21T19:53:34+00:00

The thing is, by just removing the rule without placing a "limiter" (that still, no one would follow), you give BNs leniency and mappers more of a choice in the representation of their map. As normal, these things can be modded out if they are too much for their respective difficulty, just as all subjective matters are. By limiting these patterns, we're limiting the potential of rains downwards from what it currently is. As I said, no one follows this rule, and it's been working absolutely fine. If the rule didn't exist, no one would point any of this out. The offending material is modded out, and if not, it's DQ'd over for being inappropriate.

Sanyi

236 posts

Joined November 2015

Sanyi 2018-12-22T00:43:25+00:00

I can't think of a scenario where the limiter that I proposed wouldn't be pointed out by a BN anyways, that's why I suggested it. We do use limiters in the RC quite often so it seems fitting to me.

Ascendance

Elite Mapper

4,252 posts

Joined July 2013

Topic Starter

Ascendance 2018-12-22T06:32:58+00:00

But the point is that when people are already pointing out stuff that you've proposed to add, there's no real reason to add it. By then, we could potentially be limiting cases where it's completely fine.

Secre

osu!catch Champion / Nomination Assessment Team

402 posts

Joined January 2013

Secre 2018-12-22T17:05:01+00:00

Ascendance wrote:
But the point is that when people are already pointing out stuff that you've proposed to add, there's no real reason to add it. By then, we could potentially be limiting cases where it's completely fine.

you're essentially saying at this point why even have a ranking criteria when bns/mappers should know what is fine and what isn't fine at this point

the RC is essentially just one big limiter

Ascendance

Elite Mapper

4,252 posts

Joined July 2013

Topic Starter

Ascendance 2018-12-23T03:16:45+00:00

The thing is, what’s “acceptable” or not in cases like this is almost entirely subjective. The RC is a limiter for things that should be limited. Without the RC, you create serious objective issues, some of which break levels of difficulty entirely. This, as has been proven by the lack of following of this rule, is not one of those. By removing it, you essentially change nothing with how people have been mapping this entire time.

Sanyi

236 posts

Joined November 2015

Sanyi 2018-12-26T21:48:46+00:00

Ascendance wrote:
Without the RC, you create serious objective issues, some of which break levels of difficulty entirely. This, as has been proven by the lack of following of this rule, is not one of those.

Not completely agreeing with that point. Just because the rule isn't followed in it's current version, doesn't mean that every pattern it prohibited is ok a Rain. Let's take my previous suggestion as an example: In what scenario would a higher snapped antiflow dash after a higher snapped hyperdash not break a Rain?

Ascendance

Elite Mapper

4,252 posts

Joined July 2013

Topic Starter

Ascendance 2019-01-05T03:21:36+00:00

Here's the newly proposed rule, after discussion with ZiRoX:

Ranking Criteria wrote:
Basic hyperdashes can't be used more than four times between consecutive fruits. If higher snapped hyperdashes are used, they must not be used in conjunction with other hyperdashes or higher snapped dashes.

This now allows for the usage of basic dashes after hypers in Rain Difficulties.

Sanyi

236 posts

Joined November 2015

Sanyi 2019-01-05T04:07:05+00:00

I agree to that wording.

wonjae

768 posts

Joined October 2014

wonjae 2019-01-05T04:23:57+00:00

+1

-Luminate