Hello everyone, I know this comes out of nowhere, but to me, ranking a map really shouldn't be exclusive to a mappers only, as this can form opinions division between players and mappers, even though the game from the start should involve both parties coexisting together to bring the ranked map category a more fun, and balanced area to find new maps for everyone.

This system will look a bit too out of the ordinary and maybe people will ignore this enourmous rant, but I did this because I truly enjoy the game and would like to see the best come out of it. And i tried my best at counter arguments to my own points so that it's something well structured and not just a random opinion thread.

So, what's the problem with the current system?
- Mappers/modders currently are the ones who choose which maps should be ranked, regardless of player feedback after it gets qualified;
- Qualified section at the moment is mostly just a placeholder for maps during a week for QATs or other people to find unrankable issues, or other really strong issues with the map, but most go by as any map can be ranked regardless of ''quality'';
- Maps can be ''speedranked'' if knowing the right people and have help prior to submitting the map, while alot of unknown mappers are left behind.
- The only way for players to vote maps they like are with hype to help nominate a map (even though mappers can easily obtain 5 hype just from modders alone), or voting for loved section maps.

Well, to say what is wrong with a system and not bringing a solution from my part would be a bit obnoxious, then here is my idea:

1 - First of, Nomination to Qualify section rework.

At first I thought the new qualify section would be a tool for more mappers to get their maps under revision, but instead its a more ''early access'' ranked section, nothing really changed except avoiding unranks on maps already approved to the ranking system.
The new system I present here will completely change how a map gets nominated in favor of lesser known mappers.

This solution is by allowing the mapper itself to apply their map for qualify, by actually choosing themselves when to put it when fit ready.
There are new requirements to do this below:

1. No unrankable issues (wrong timed objects, number of difficulties based on mapped length, etc (Yes AiMod needs to be fixed for this*))
2. A map requires at least 8-10 or above Hype;
3. At least 10-15 people need to give at least 3 different suggestions to your map;
4. Each difficulty needs at least 3 different modders with 1 suggestion each;
5. A mapper would now have to wait 2 weeks after submitting the map (maybe 3 weeks is more appropriate).

After all 3 requirements are verified, the mapper will be able to unlock the ''Push to Qualify'' button on their mapset thread if they see their mapset fit ready for qualifying, as this could be an autonomous method for checking if maps do have the requirements already before giving the mapper the choice to push forward to the next step.

*About the Aimod, sending a mapset with issues from Aimod, gives a trigger to the submitted mapset thread saying that it could not get ranked and thus not being allowed to push to qualify yet.

2 - Qualify section rework.

After your map has gone into Qualified section, it will stay there for 2 weeks, and players will now have a ''Would you like this mapset to be ranked?'' voting below after submitting a play on it (or 1 in 2 different difficulties if it has more than 1 difficulty, this can be another solution to troll voters). After a certain percentage, let's say, 80-85% or above voted in favor, then the map after 2 weeks of not receiving more information on issues it presents, will move automatically to ranked. It should be clarified, that if people think that most people shouldn't vote regardless of their rank, well you are probably forgetting that the most non-dedicated players wouldnt probably play qualified maps anyway, so this is why the voting is within the map thread for those willing to help the game in a way so they think which maps should be approved for ranking or not.

About the new mapset getting qualified, other players, and modders alike, can still submit suggestions or report any issues they find with the map, if a certain number of issues has been reported and the mapper chooses to fix said issues because, it may impact on the map vote % if these issues are too bad, then it will continue in pending for at least another week, giving time to fix said issues and for the mapper to improve now that they got more publicity to their mapset thanks to the qualified section and it's leaderboards.

About the number of maps limited for qualifying, I will talk about this during the next section about the QAT system.

---

So what have we established so far:

- Unknown mappers don't have to rely on the current beatmap nominator circles to qualify their own map;
- Qualified section gets more exposure to all mappers for people interested in seeing new maps;
- Players can play a role in what they want to push forward to ranking.

Because this is a community driven game, the whole community should be part of what goes into ranked section, not just the mappers as they have drifted so far away from what other players would like to play on a song.

And lastly, the bigger impactful section:

3 - The Quality Assurance Team and the removal of Beatmap Nominators.

So why remove Beatmap Nominators?

The sole purpose of Beatmap Nominators is to push a map to qualify, yet when the mapper themselves can now put their maps into qualified, there is no need for BNs, instead the focus should be on the QAT system. With this, there is no modder with special attributes and they simply have to help everyone equally removing the BN circles. This is also the solution to certain BNs not helping other mappers being inactive on the modding scene and qualifying maps only within the said BN circle. Everyone gets to be equal here.

Except, well, QATs.
And what is the QAT system going to do now?

The QAT system will keep an eye on the maps now on qualified, they can be more active now and the same thing they do currently: they check if mapsets have any unrankable issue, see if there are more serious issues and look at other people's opinions as to why the map shouldn't be ranked yet.

Now there should be more maps ofc in the qualified section, but that also means there should be a limit per day (15-20), as QATs and other people will have a large influx of maps in the qualified section to look after since they stay for 2 weeks now. I said 2 weeks because they early the map is in qualified section, the more bound for others to find issues increases, the last days of qualified section is when QATs can be more active in checking the mapsets to see if any issues still arise. And let's not forget that mapsets still need to have the requirements in order before jumping straight to qualified, specially the case with the 2 weeks after submission and enough people to look at it.

If modders have established outstanding performance in the modding scene helping other mappers, they could be hand picked to join the QATs if they wish to do so, allowing more disperse members of the QAT to look at more mapsets. The requirements of entering QAT can be more harsh but even so, there is no longer a need to get more members into the BN group to look at enough maps, the qualified section give it more attention already.


About kudosu and hype:

Since now it requires more hype for a beatmap to be approved for qualifying, I suggest increasing to 2 hype per week. And as a modder since kudosu no longer means anything except more reputation as a modder, you can exchange each 15-20 kudosu points into 1 hype point to help other mappers, this benefits everyone!

---------

TL:DR - So the whole point of the system:
- Mappers themselves picking up what should go for qualify when ready and fit requirements, making everyone equal;
- After qualified, during the 2 weeks, players themselves have a chance can vote maps fit for ranking;
- Maps can still be judged during qualified just like in the current system, and can still be disqualified if issues are present;
- Removal of BN system, and more focus on QAT.


All this is to bring the community more together in the quality of maps that get ranked, and help those less successfull in the ranking process to shine more. Well known mappers will still be popular because their maps are known to be good so that won't change.

Now there are those that would say that this would never be implemented, and peppy ''doesn't care about it because it's too much work''. But I am not posting this expecting to be implemented, I was just giving my idea, my opinion, on a different take on the beatmap ranking system, instead of just complaining or waiting for someone else to do something about it, giving 0 contribution to the discussion.

So because this is such a massive rework on the current system, I tried my best at seeing all counter arguments to each point so that it was the most well structured thread possible, because really the current system has many flaws, so I made this with the most responses to each problem I could find. Hopefully you find this thread interesting enough and would like to see a new change. Opinions are welcome.

^^

The idea itself is not bad because it's true that the maps in the ranked section are chosen by BNs and checked by QAH/QAT without much player feedback. But I think that this issue can be solved in a different way.
If more players played qualified maps and if they posted potential issues on the modding thread instead of complaining in the comment section, they could also participate in the map selection to a certain degree. For this to be possible, there obviously needs to be more visibility/accessibility to modding and an incentive to play qualified maps like some people were saying in a different thread.
The issue I have with your idea is that with the removal of the BNG, there is no quality control anymore because everyone could push their map to qualified regardless of quality. The requirements you listed are not a measure for quality either because it's easy to get "filler mods" (or even normal mods) and hypes and having your map in pending for 2 weeks as well as having no unrankable issues is also not a big deal and not an indicator of quality. You also have to consider that these requirements are an unnecessary obstacle for very experienced mappers who don't need so many mods/hypes/time in pending because their maps are very good to begin with.
It would also be unfair to simply remove all the BNs because they worked hard to achieve their position and even if you add them all to the QAT, the system would not work efficiently since they would be supposed to check all the maps instead of only nominating the maps they like and think are good. Also, the majority of the maps would simply be low quality because the requirements are way too low as I said earlier. It would also be a huge workload for the QAT. And even with a daily limit of maps in the qualified section you would not solve the problem because it would delay the ranking process for maps which are good quality compared to maps that are not, since there is no priority/quality control anymore.
About the player voting system, I think this works just fine for the loved section but it's not suited for the ranked section because most players are not really skilled at analyzing maps thoroughly and judging whether the map is good or bad, at least not as much as BNG/QAT members. Players mostly only care about the song and if the map is fun to play, but they also consider many low quality maps fun so again, we would have no real quality control.
On the other hand, I agree with some of the problems with the current system you mentioned, such as unknown mappers struggling to get their maps ranked despite being good, almost no player input for the map selection and most maps getting through qualified even though they have major (but not unrankable) issues. However, I think the purpose of the qualified section is to be a "placeholder" for maps as you said, so people can check them for issues. Also, speedranking is not a problem itself, unless the maps was not checked enough and results in low quality.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

The issue I have with your idea is that with the removal of the BNG, there is no quality control anymore because everyone could push their map to qualified regardless of quality. The requirements you listed are not a measure for quality either because it's easy to get "filler mods" (or even normal mods) and hypes and having your map in pending for 2 weeks as well as having no unrankable issues is also not a big deal and not an indicator of quality. You also have to consider that these requirements are an unnecessary obstacle for very experienced mappers who don't need so many mods/hypes/time in pending because their maps are very good to begin with.

The problem for BNG to still exist during the qualifying stage would only mean they could unqualify maps, which wouldn't be bad and they get rewarded from it, but then they are still the ones that select which maps get unqualified so they will only possibly choose the songs they like and ignore others. I think if enough issues are present on the forums would trigger an unqualify already without the need for the QATs to check themselves.

About the unnecessary obstacle for experienced mappers, I don't think it's such an issue since they still have to go thru the same process as the current one, plus they already have enough ranked mapsets so they should give the chance to others and be more helpful. Maybe 2 weeks in pending for someone who already has a ranked mapset and 3 weeks if that mapper doesn't have any maps yet, to give enough time to think about fixing their map.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

About the player voting system, I think this works just fine for the loved section but it's not suited for the ranked section because most players are not really skilled at analyzing maps thoroughly and judging whether the map is good or bad, at least not as much as BNG/QAT members. Players mostly only care about the song and if the map is fun to play, but they also consider many low quality maps fun so again, we would have no real quality control.

I think we can have a solution to this as well, I mentioned kudosu being useless but, we can put it into use just like it was before moddingv2, as in increases your map priority. That means the more you mod others, the more kudosu score you can put on your map or others, to increase it's chance of going thru the beatmap qualify limit, as the ones with the highest kudosu go thru after the wait time is over, kinda like a queue. Modders/mappers can give kudosu for priority with no limit and everyone can give hype to fit the criteria.


Thanks for sharing your opinions though, I just wanted to know how this system wouldn't work and why even though i had no plan on it working in the first place since it would probably present new flaws, but nothing is perfect anyway so might as well try

Rad- wrote:

The problem for BNG to still exist during the qualifying stage would only mean they could unqualify maps, which wouldn't be bad and they get rewarded from it, but then they are still the ones that select which maps get unqualified so they will only possibly choose the songs they like and ignore others. I think if enough issues are present on the forums would trigger an unqualify already without the need for the QATs to check themselves.

I don't think it's unfair that the BNG and the QAT have the privileges to nominate/disqualify maps since they are experienced in modding and checking maps for issues. Players don't necessarily have the same abilities and they would most likely not notice certain problems within a map. It would also mean that any player could basically stop a map from getting ranked, even if it doesn't have major problems. The BNG and QAT are necessary to make sure that all the maps are suitable for the ranked section, they cannot be replaced so easily.

Rad- wrote:

About the unnecessary obstacle for experienced mappers, I don't think it's such an issue since they still have to go thru the same process as the current one, plus they already have enough ranked mapsets so they should give the chance to others and be more helpful. Maybe 2 weeks in pending for someone who already has a ranked mapset and 3 weeks if that mapper doesn't have any maps yet, to give enough time to think about fixing their map.

No, they would have to get more mods than currently which is not necessary in many cases. Already now many experienced mapper just ask some friends or random modders to point out a few things in the modding thread but most of the time these are very minor suggestions that are denied by the mapper. The time spent in pending is also irrelevant because if a map is ready for ranked after 1 week or even only 3 days, why not qualify it already at that time?

Rad- wrote:

I think we can have a solution to this as well, I mentioned kudosu being useless but, we can put it into use just like it was before moddingv2, as in increases your map priority. That means the more you mod others, the more kudosu score you can put on your map or others, to increase it's chance of going thru the beatmap qualify limit, as the ones with the highest kudosu go thru after the wait time is over, kinda like a queue. Modders/mappers can give kudosu for priority with no limit and everyone can give hype to fit the criteria.

I agree with the fact that star priority worked better than hype because it made kudosu somewhat useful (even if not that much) but again, star priority is not an indicator of quality. You can give your own map or someone else's map as many stars as you want even if the map is low quality. BNs also don't care about star priority/hype count. They judge a map by looking at it in the editor, not by its priority.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

I agree with the fact that star priority worked better than hype because it made kudosu somewhat useful (even if not that much) but again, star priority is not an indicator of quality. You can give your own map or someone else's map as many stars as you want even if the map is low quality. BNs also don't care about star priority/hype count. They judge a map by looking at it in the editor, not by its priority.

The problem is that if we take everything for BNs, the choice for them to keep choosing the maps THEY want to mod will just keep happening, rendering useless for other mappers to try and have a competing chance. The star priority is not an indicator of quality, it never was. It was a way to bring more attention to your map so that others will see that more work was put into it and not just rushed out.

Idea is good, but you do crucial mistake - giving players a deciding vote whether a map should be ranked or not.
Most players don't even know anything about what makes a map good or not, they just care about pp and ranks, thats the reality.
Especially, when there would be no rank limitations (i didnt see you mention it anywhere), so 6 digits would inflate the votes and just imagine trying to rank any "tech" map.

tl;dr good step in right direction, but just a step, this wouldnt work as an official system in current state of it.

requiring a mod count for things to get qualified is useless because experienced mappers do not need filler mods and new mappers probably need more than this to make a rankable map, since from the start their map will suck and most mods and modders do not address core issues and instead point out random stuff which will not improve the fundamentally bad map to a rankable state.


waiting is useless other than making people who cannot rank things feel better about not being able to rank things, because if i make a map and let it sit there for 2 weeks it will not magically improve from when i submitted it lol.

user rating is completely unrelated to map quality, and it will almost always either represent song choice or whether or not reddit decided to shit on the map at the time. see project loved for the type of maps that players say are really good (most of them are terrible)

basing dqs on number of issues pointed out is stupid because i can write 50 million random nitpicks for something and get it dq'd or point out 2 major flaws and it won't even though the map with 2 major flaws is worse.

unknown mappers do not have that much difficulty ranking maps, the problem is usually that their maps aren't good enough and they don't know how to judge that, so as a result they blame bn system for not ranking their maps. i can give you examples of both new mappers who make rankable maps and ranked things very easily, and new mappers who think they are entitled to a ranked map even though their map is bad, and don't manage to rank it.

M2Usonek wrote:

Idea is good, but you do crucial mistake - giving players a deciding vote whether a map should be ranked or not.
Most players don't even know anything about what makes a map good or not, they just care about pp and ranks, thats the reality.
Especially, when there would be no rank limitations (i didnt see you mention it anywhere), so 6 digits would inflate the votes and just imagine trying to rank any "tech" map.

I thought about the rank limitation, but then i would see it a bit unfair because most dificulties that are played are like the hardest ones on a mapset, and the lower ones are completely ignored, even if they may play well, which osu also needs easier difficulties for beginner players.
But the reason that it's not a problem it's because most of these players aren't really involved in the community so they probably wouldn't even know about the voting system yet, only the more dedicated players would do so if they visisted the map discussion thread.

The vote doesn't need to be so high up either as to deciding it, it should be more as a reflexion as to why people wouldn't want the mapset to be ranked for said reasons like bad quality, overall bland and not fun to play, not ready for ranked, etc. Those that would vote based on pp and ranks would probably not bother with voting anyway since they are already focused on ranked mapsets to farm from, the qualify is for those to invest on the future of ranked mapsets.

Nao Tomori wrote:

unknown mappers do not have that much difficulty ranking maps, the problem is usually that their maps aren't good enough and they don't know how to judge that, so as a result they blame bn system for not ranking their maps. i can give you examples of both new mappers who make rankable maps and ranked things very easily, and new mappers who think they are entitled to a ranked map even though their map is bad, and don't manage to rank it.

I don't think this is true at all. Alot of new/unknown mappers aren't given the chance to go very far on the ranking system just based on their quality of the map alone, alot of modders, but mostly BNs, decide to ignore many mappers due to reasons like song choice, map length, difficulty overall, or mapping style choice being too doubtful being far apart from the regular meta.

There is no real incentive as to why BNs should check from mappers they don't know already, it tottally defeats the purpose of a community when there are closed circles within it that ignore others.

At least 10-15 people need to give at least 3 different suggestions to your map;
Each difficulty needs at least 3 different modders with 1 suggestion each;
A mapper would now have to wait 2 weeks after submitting the map (maybe 3 weeks is more appropriate).

No. If you're an established mapper and your mapset is well done, you don't need too much suggestion. It will just lead to ridiculous suggestion that will give nothing new to the map.

Pachiru wrote:

At least 10-15 people need to give at least 3 different suggestions to your map;
Each difficulty needs at least 3 different modders with 1 suggestion each;
A mapper would now have to wait 2 weeks after submitting the map (maybe 3 weeks is more appropriate).

No. If you're an established mapper and your mapset is well done, you don't need too much suggestion. It will just lead to ridiculous suggestion that will give nothing new to the map.

This could be reduced to mappers with stuff already ranked, it was only a suggestion, but to simply enforce new mappers to try their hardest on a map before choosing to qualify it.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/862236
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/829956
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/825507
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/812370
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/823292
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/846759
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/857816
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/801537
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/830444

here's a few of the new or newer mapper maps in qualified, is that not enough? bns dont only circlejerk, or if they do, then clearly only bn maps would be qualified lol. sure some are inactive but that will happen in any system, and most bns are people who want to help the community by promoting content otherwise they would not make the time investment to mod a ton and get into bn, and just remain mappers and only rank their own maps. if you are the type of person who would only get bn to circlejerk, then by nature you will not force yourself to get bn in the first place since you clearly dont care about helping others; you would just remain as a mapper and rank your maps by yourself. this entire argument is just entitled and dumb - 9 times out of 10, if a mapper makes a rankable map, it will be ranked if they push it forward. it might take longer than if an experienced mapper did it, but that is the cost of not having invested as much time into the community, making friends, helping with gds and mods and so on and so forth. as you said, it's a community game, so people who have put more into the community have an easier time working through the system...

...

I won't say anything that has already been mentioned before (^above by nao), even though your proposal clearly has many flaws, I appreciate the fact that you at least decided to speak up about it rather than just wail about it privately. ^^

(Moving this to RC, seems like it belongs there more)

1. The reason new mappers cant rank their maps is mostly because their map isnt ready.
2. Players cant even really tell the difference between a good and bad map since they cant give reasons for it, their response will just be: its good cuz its feels/plays/flows good
3. aimod is useless, you still need someone with knowledge to look for unrankables
4. hypes are useless since only popular maps get them (i think over the last 4 month i gathered like maybe 3 to 5 random player hypes (and that on over 10 sets)
5. i dont see any reason to wait 2-3 weeks for the map to get ranked since the quality would benefit from this at all, overmodding is also a problem for newer mappers. really experienced mappers are experienced for a reason so they should be knowledgable in what they do, why put stones in the way?

i dont know why to change a running system
at the moment i dont see a reason to change the way how it is currently handled^^

Rad- wrote:

I don't think this is true at all. Alot of new/unknown mappers aren't given the chance to go very far on the ranking system just based on their quality of the map alone, alot of modders, but mostly BNs, decide to ignore many mappers due to reasons like song choice, map length, difficulty overall, or mapping style choice being too doubtful being far apart from the regular meta.

There is no real incentive as to why BNs should check from mappers they don't know already, it tottally defeats the purpose of a community when there are closed circles within it that ignore others.

At the moment there are 54 standard BNs, each with their own music taste or style choice. this means that, if your map truly is good, it really isn't so difficult to find two BNs interested. Even if there are a couple BNs who prefer modding their friends maps, trust me when I say that most are willing to push a map they genuinely find good, even if they've never heard of the mapper. The current system actually promotes innovation: the more your map stands out, the more likely it is for BNs to notice it and gain interest. Some BNs are actively looking for unique maps to push and have the expertise to judge it. If players are the ones who push maps, you'd see a lot of maps which are "fun" to play but lack any other quality, such as jump compilations. Some gimmicks represent their song really well but players might not find them fun, meaning with your system, those maps would have no chance of passing through qualified.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of newer mappers think their map is ready for ranked much earlier than when it actually is, with this system they could get a couple superficial mods from their friends and push the maps. This would massively increase the number of maps in qualified (to the point where BN/QAT members would have 0 chance to fully check every single map) and many of these maps could pass by unnoticed with unrankable issues, reducing the efficiency of the system compared to the work needed to maintain it.

nao already mentioned everything. there is no perfect ranking system. but what we have at the current is better

Rad- wrote:

- Qualified section at the moment is mostly just a placeholder for maps during a week for QATs or other people to find unrankable issues, or other really strong issues with the map, but most go by as any map can be ranked regardless of ''quality'';
- Maps can be ''speedranked'' if knowing the right people and have help prior to submitting the map, while alot of unknown mappers are left behind.
- The only way for players to vote maps they like are with hype to help nominate a map (even though mappers can easily obtain 5 hype just from modders alone), or voting for loved section maps.

1. This is very false, there could be more than just "serious issue", changing just one circle even it is not too harmful can cause disqualification as it is needed to be fixed.
2. I can say Nao makes a very good reply on this about "unknown mappers" I can say myself I'm not really known and I don't think there is much any difficulties to find them, even when I first time ranking a set, I called a lot of BNs (like 5 or 6 if I remember correctly) and most of them came to check my set, even it is just a mod, not a nomination.
3. Pretty sure a big part of players don't really care much about hyping even tho they really like the set, this was discussed in the #osu-web-modding if i remember correctly

Rad- wrote:

3. At least 10-15 people need to give at least 3 different suggestions to your map;
4. Each difficulty needs at least 3 different modders with 1 suggestion each;
5. A mapper would now have to wait 2 weeks after submitting the map (maybe 3 weeks is more appropriate).

These are very unnecessary, as some mappers (new or known) can map pretty much very well made map and might just need 1-2 or even no mods, there's no need to put much unnecessary mods like "fix blanket" or the like just to fulfill this requirement. (also im very sure most mapset dont need 30 ~ 45 suggestion just to rank it, even with the current system they are already good)

Rad- wrote:

After all 3 requirements are verified, the mapper will be able to unlock the ''Push to Qualify'' button on their mapset thread if they see their mapset fit ready for qualifying, as this could be an autonomous method for checking if maps do have the requirements already before giving the mapper the choice to push forward to the next step.

this could cause some overhyped bad maps being pushed anyway, as there are a lot of players like it aside the fact that its bad in front of mapper and modders eye, and therefore it would most likely get pass through 80-85% threshold.

Rad- wrote:

*About the Aimod, sending a mapset with issues from Aimod, gives a trigger to the submitted mapset thread saying that it could not get ranked and thus not being allowed to push to qualify yet.

does this counts as they're not in 5min+ set and AIMod still triggers a warn to it lol, and sometimes it bugged on NHI sets

Rad- wrote:

''Would you like this mapset to be ranked?'' voting below after submitting a play on it (or 1 in 2 different difficulties if it has more than 1 difficulty, this can be another solution to troll voters).

well, guess I can spam NFDT and post "No" to the map I dislike! regardless on how can I play it or not~

Rad- wrote:

About the new mapset getting qualified, other players, and modders alike, can still submit suggestions or report any issues they find with the map, if a certain number of issues has been reported and the mapper chooses to fix said issues because, it may impact on the map vote % if these issues are too bad, then it will continue in pending for at least another week, giving time to fix said issues and for the mapper to improve now that they got more publicity to their mapset thanks to the qualified section and it's leaderboards.

1. What will happen if there's serious issue and the percentage is still up to 85%? This sounds really unclear.
2. What will happen if the mapper hasn't fix/update it yet before one week?
3. Will these got automatically qualified after one week?
4. Will the counter of two weeks happen again?

pls answer thanks, its very unclear on how should it be requalified.

Rad- wrote:

QAT things

holy this just makes things for QAT way too heavy, although its their job, they still have life and other things to do, especially everyday that could be more than 10 maps to qualify, that could mean they need to check every each of them, and they will hurry more when some days those qualified rounds going to get ranked, even though with the 2 weeks span, im very sure with a big load of maps they might not be able to handle all of them (no bad feelings for QATs, i just think it would be overwhelming, you guys do pretty cool job!)
also think about other gamemodes who have less QAT members, that could be way much worse for them to handle :c

Guess that's all that I can say, hopefully its clear enough!
edit: lol nao mostly covers everything i would also want to say

Error- wrote:

[quote="Rad-"]

1. What will happen if there's serious issue and the percentage is still up to 85%? This sounds really unclear.
2. What will happen if the mapper hasn't fix/update it yet before one week?
3. Will these got automatically qualified after one week?
4. Will the counter of two weeks happen again?

pls answer thanks, its very unclear on how should it be requalified.

First off Ai Mod is long needed of an update anyway, i never said it was good as it is, that would have been fixed easily if someone really tried. Now to answer your questions:

1. QATs still need to check the map for stuff like that so it's not an autonomous system;
2. ^
3. Not automatic, the mapper would still need to submit it to qualified just like before, and having higher priority than other mapsets;
4. For requalified maps, yes.

And yes, Nao already had some good points so there's really not much i can add to this discussion lol. I got my answers and those are pretty good ones, so now I see why a different system wouldn't work, which is all I wanted to know out of curiosity.

The whole point of this thread is more of a ''What if'' than actual changing the current system, to really think on how every solution comes with a different problem, so yea i think everything has been clarified already.

ITT: Modders berate a poor player who has 2 loved maps and no ranked maps.

This thread is seriously biased and lacks player opinion.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

About the player voting system, I think this works just fine for the loved section but it's not suited for the ranked section because most players are not really skilled at analyzing maps thoroughly and judging whether the map is good or bad, at least not as much as BNG/QAT members. Players mostly only care about the song and if the map is fun to play, but they also consider many low quality maps fun so again, we would have no real quality control.

YES! Players only care about song and if the map is fun to play. Players don't care about the absurd amount of quality BN are trying to enforce, which only make it harder for newer mappers to get their maps ranked. Mappers want to make maps with passion for players to enjoy. Players want maps that are challenging, fun, interesting. Meanwhile BN have the pleasure of bombarding both sides with their elite tastes so long as something falls within the subjective guideline area. Mind you, I made the tone sound aggressive to emphasize the viewpoint of those who are looking at this entire system from the sidelines. "Elite tastes" is perhaps an inaccurate depiction and BN are just doing what they believe is best, but it sure looks that from the side.

Rad- wrote:

The problem is that if we take everything for BNs, the choice for them to keep choosing the maps THEY want to mod will just keep happening, rendering useless for other mappers to try and have a competing chance.

I don't see anyone try to argue against this, but let me drive the point home. Modders control content based on their tastes. "Want to submit your map in a queue? Well make sure you have these specific requirements to your song because I will reject it otherwise". Std may have enough modders available to cover most tastes, but count how many modding queues there are for non std gamemodes that are open right now. I counted 1 taiko, 3 ctb, 9 mania. This is awful imo.

M2Usonek wrote:

Idea is good, but you do crucial mistake - giving players a deciding vote whether a map should be ranked or not.
Most players don't even know anything about what makes a map good or not, they just care about pp and ranks, thats the reality.
Especially, when there would be no rank limitations (i didnt see you mention it anywhere), so 6 digits would inflate the votes and just imagine trying to rank any "tech" map.

Ehhh, there is truth in this. Players would definitely prefer maps that benefit them, so a map that will allow them to farm pp will be preferred by farmers more regardless if it's enjoyable or fun to play. While this is fixable via pp, it does give an unfair advantage to certain maps while it persists.

That said, some players want something different and/or challenging. Current system allows to block maps or at least slow them that are fine otherwise because modders think the structure, patterns, or something else is an issue. Take https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/870930#osu/1819850 for instance. I like the reading challenge it gives, yet modders go on how that very thing is an issue because of confusing rhythm choices. There is a distinction between something that is confusing and something that sticks out like a sore thumb. There former you need time to understand, latter doesn't belong anywhere. Recent meta has gotten to the point where rhythm needs to be clear as day for the map to be acceptable, yet there is much to be done with patterns that hide their relation to the song. Those are the patterns that the player needs to play several times to figure out and is something to take time to appreciate after having it figured out.

IceKalt wrote:

i dont know why to change a running system
at the moment i dont see a reason to change the way how it is currently handled^^

Because everything is going great on your side of things. Meanwhile, let's see the other side. The bar is too high. The ranking criteria is relaxed, but modders have a firm grip on guidelines which still makes maps too controlled. The system looks like it stinks of elitism. Everybody I know and me agrees that trying to rank a map isn't worth the trouble given the shit they need to go through, and there is nobody to help us go through it. This thread is a cry for help.

---

That all said, Rad-, you do have a couple issues with your suggestion which you should go back to and redo.
1) As others said, a hard requirement for when the map can be qualified doesn't make sense given some mappers are more experienced than others
2) If any mapper is able to qualify their map, there becomes an issue which is currently handled by a ranking rule: A certain number of the same songs cannot be in qualified at the same time.

abraker wrote:

YES! Players only care about song and if the map is fun to play. Players don't care about the absurd amount of quality BN are trying to enforce, which only make it harder for newer mappers to get their maps ranked. Mappers want to make maps with passion for players to enjoy. Players want maps that are challenging, fun, interesting. Meanwhile BN have the pleasure of bombarding both sides with their elite tastes so long as something falls within the subjective guideline area. Mind you, I made the tone sound aggressive to emphasize the viewpoint of those who are looking at this entire system from the sidelines. "Elite tastes" is perhaps an inaccurate depiction and BN are just doing what they believe is best, but it sure looks that from the side.

The amount of quality that is enforced by BNs/QAT is not absurd or too high. The standards have even been lowered lately from what I've seen. Of course it's hard to get a ranked map as an unknown mapper, no one can really deny that. But lowering the quality standards is simply not a solution. Just because players don't care or don't know about quality, doesn't mean that it should be neglected completely. If there was no quality control, players would definitely complain about "shitty" maps that get ranked all the time. Also, lowering the standards would not make BNs suddenly look at below average quality maps from new mappers.

abraker wrote:

I don't see anyone try to argue against this, but let me drive the point home. Modders control content based on their tastes. "Want to submit your map in a queue? Well make sure you have these specific requirements to your song because I will reject it otherwise". Std may have enough modders available to cover most tastes, but count how many modding queues there are for non std gamemodes that are open right now. I counted 1 taiko, 3 ctb, 9 mania. This is awful imo.

Do you really expect modders to mod every map that is posted in their queue? It's obvious that people only mod what they like. Keep in mind that modding is something people do for free (or to get a mod on their own map in return) and they spend their free time doing it to presumably help others and to improve their modding abilities. You're right about the lack of modders in the other game modes, but you can't do anything about it. The other game modes also have fewer players, mappers, BNs etc. so there are obviously fewer modders as well. Besides that, in the end it all depends on the BNs, not regular modders, since they can decide whether your map gets qualified.

abraker wrote:

Because everything is going great on your side of things. Meanwhile, let's see the other side. The bar is too high. The ranking criteria is relaxed, but modders have a firm grip on guidelines which still makes maps too controlled. The system looks like it stinks of elitism. Everybody I know and me agrees that trying to rank a map isn't worth the trouble given the shit they need to go through, and there is nobody to help us go through it. This thread is a cry for help.

Again, the bar is not too high, otherwise literally anything would get ranked and there would be no difference between the ranked and the graveyard section. Most BNs know which maps are good enough to be nominated, I wouldn't say maps are too controlled, especially from what we've seen getting ranked this year (many controversial maps that would've never been ranked a few years ago). The problem is not "elitism". The only potential issue is that BNs mostly nominate maps from the same mappers for various reasons. I agree that it's a really difficult and long process to rank a map as a no-name but the proposed system wouldn't change that. You need to work really hard and put a lot of effort into mapping if you want to get a ranked map, but if it's important to you, it will be worth it.

i'm sorry, WHAT???????

let's go from the top.


I think that is it. Sorry if I came off as toxic to anyone.

speedranking is a nonissue

bn circlejerk is a nonissue

mappers and players are the same level of dumb

kd is purposely being rendered useless to bring in something else

only thing i can agree with is player voting but there needs to be an actual working sophisticated system for that which would need more discussion, the requirements for beatmap qualification i cannot get behind 100% and ur motive is trying to fix problems that don't exist

Ok I can agree with a lot of what Nao tomori was saying, but I feel like you should know that osu! benefits from a larger diversity of content.

What your proposal does it is makes it so players limit the amount of content that can get ranked, (and tbh user rating is pretty screwed up). There are many issues with this. The first of which is: it requires an actual diverse amount of players to be active in the ranking/mapping scene to even bother participating in this.

and 2. all it will do is limit any sort of "controversial" mapper from getting stuff ranked. And I mean "controversial" as in anything where UR is less than 9 cuz its not pp.

If you want something to promote player opinion and create more diversity in osu! you should look to finding a way players can participate in pushing maps for some sort of official status, but they should not be the quality checkers since they are pretty clueless in general. (oh wait, like loved or something where players' favorite maps get leaderboards? lol)


P.S. Oh and a side note, about ranking new mappers maps, My first ranked map was ranked during the tier system which required 3 BNs, and you needed to find BNs above t1 to get the map into qualified. My map was high enough quality that I had 2 tier 2 BNs and a QAT push it for ranked. What you need to get your map into ranked status is a good map and to see which BN/QAT think the map is good.
Different BN/QAT have different styles they like, so if you make something super generic only a few of them would really go for it imo. I don't think I've seen a single case where a newer mappers map "should have been ranked" most people who say that have really low quality maps or just overly generic top diff that has minimal quality and really low quality lower difficulties.

Unstable Rate less than 9

VINXIS wrote:

Unstable Rate less than 9

how did you do in OWC? did you wonnered? I'm not really following too closely this year D:

it aint broke

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

abraker wrote:

YES! Players only care about song and if the map is fun to play. Players don't care about the absurd amount of quality BN are trying to enforce, which only make it harder for newer mappers to get their maps ranked. Mappers want to make maps with passion for players to enjoy. Players want maps that are challenging, fun, interesting. Meanwhile BN have the pleasure of bombarding both sides with their elite tastes so long as something falls within the subjective guideline area. Mind you, I made the tone sound aggressive to emphasize the viewpoint of those who are looking at this entire system from the sidelines. "Elite tastes" is perhaps an inaccurate depiction and BN are just doing what they believe is best, but it sure looks that from the side.

The amount of quality that is enforced by BNs/QAT is not absurd or too high. The standards have even been lowered lately from what I've seen. Of course it's hard to get a ranked map as an unknown mapper, no one can really deny that. But lowering the quality standards is simply not a solution.

Then tell me, what is the solution?

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

Just because players don't care or don't know about quality, doesn't mean that it should be neglected completely. If there was no quality control, players would definitely complain about "shitty" maps that get ranked all the time.

Players complain about "shitty" maps even now.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

abraker wrote:

I don't see anyone try to argue against this, but let me drive the point home. Modders control content based on their tastes. "Want to submit your map in a queue? Well make sure you have these specific requirements to your song because I will reject it otherwise". Std may have enough modders available to cover most tastes, but count how many modding queues there are for non std gamemodes that are open right now. I counted 1 taiko, 3 ctb, 9 mania. This is awful imo.

Do you really expect modders to mod every map that is posted in their queue? It's obvious that people only mod what they like. Keep in mind that modding is something people do for free (or to get a mod on their own map in return) and they spend their free time doing it to presumably help others and to improve their modding abilities. You're right about the lack of modders in the other game modes, but you can't do anything about it. The other game modes also have fewer players, mappers, BNs etc. so there are obviously fewer modders as well. Besides that, in the end it all depends on the BNs, not regular modders, since they can decide whether your map gets qualified.

You are acknowledging the problem, but are saying to deal with it. These are unfavorable conditions for diversity and I expect a solution.

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

abraker wrote:

Because everything is going great on your side of things. Meanwhile, let's see the other side. The bar is too high. The ranking criteria is relaxed, but modders have a firm grip on guidelines which still makes maps too controlled. The system looks like it stinks of elitism. Everybody I know and me agrees that trying to rank a map isn't worth the trouble given the shit they need to go through, and there is nobody to help us go through it. This thread is a cry for help.

Again, the bar is not too high, otherwise literally anything would get ranked and there would be no difference between the ranked and the graveyard section. Most BNs know which maps are good enough to be nominated, I wouldn't say maps are too controlled, especially from what we've seen getting ranked this year (many controversial maps that would've never been ranked a few years ago). The problem is not "elitism". The only potential issue is that BNs mostly nominate maps from the same mappers for various reasons. I agree that it's a really difficult and long process to rank a map as a no-name but the proposed system wouldn't change that. You need to work really hard and put a lot of effort into mapping if you want to get a ranked map, but if it's important to you, it will be worth it.

You think the bar is not too high, but many others who give up before their first map is ranked think otherwise. Many mappers need help getting their map ranked beyond the issues found in the map. They have a structure they want to follow, maybe a style as well that raises questions. They need guidance not critique. Instead of saying it won't work, they expect a compromise.

The difference between ranked, loved and graveyard is the leaderboard. Being able to put your score up there is quite a big deal. The difference between ranked and loved is recognition. Now it shouldn't make a difference whether a map is going for ranked or loved to the individual, but as part of community, it is painful to watch. It hurts to watch how many attempts at ranking a map fail because inexperienced mappers give up after their first encounter with critique. Attempts that could have ended up with something new and exciting for all that doesn't comform to the mapping meta. Yea inexperienced mappers tend to push their shitmaps thinking that it is the greatest thing ever, but there is nothing in place to help inexperienced mappers, and I believe that turns away many mappers that could make interesting and unique maps otherwise. Maps that could ranked to offer something new and exciting and present it to a wide audience, which in turn allows the mapping meta to evolve at a faster pace.

---

Edit: When I say I expect a solution, I don't mean from the specific from the individual I am replying to. We need to come up with a solution together.

abraker wrote:

Then tell me, what is the solution?

There is no ideal solution sometimes. The current system is definitely not perfect, but it still works better than the system which was proposed here. We should improve the current system, sure. But going in the direction of letting nearly every map get ranked with minimal quality control and long, unnecessary waiting times is probably not the best idea.

abraker wrote:

Players complain about "shitty" maps even now.

Yeah, that's because people like complaining all the time and about everything. Also, you can't please everyone. No matter what you do, there will always be people who are not happy with it.

abraker wrote:

You are acknowledging the problem, but are saying to deal with it. These are unfavorable conditions for diversity and I expect a solution.

There is simply no way to increase the amount of non-std modders/mappers/BNs. The only possibility would be to give the other modes more exposure in some way, but that's not the topic here.

abraker wrote:

You think the bar is not too high, but many others who give up before their first map is ranked think otherwise. Many mappers need help getting their map ranked beyond the issues found in the map. They have a structure they want to follow, maybe a style as well that raises questions. They need guidance not critique. Instead of saying it won't work, they expect a compromise.

Well, the problem itself is not the bar being too high, it's rather, as you said, inexperienced mappers not getting enough help/guidance which makes it seem like it's impossible for them to get a ranked map etc. This issue could be solved if experienced mappers, including BNs, would help new mappers more. Sometimes there are mod queues or even BN queues that are targeted towards inexperienced mappers, but this could definitely be worked on. I feel like this is also getting off-topic though, since it's not directly related to a new ranking system.

abraker wrote:

The difference between ranked, loved and graveyard is the leaderboard. Being able to put your score up there is quite a big deal. The difference between ranked and loved is recognition. Now it shouldn't make a difference whether a map is going for ranked or loved to the individual, but as part of community, it is painful to watch. It hurts to watch how many attempts at ranking a map fail because inexperienced mappers give up after their first encounter with critique. Attempts that could have ended up with something new and exciting for all that doesn't comform to the mapping meta. Yea inexperienced mappers tend to push their shitmaps thinking that it is the greatest thing ever, but there is nothing in place to help inexperienced mappers, and I believe that turns away many mappers that could make interesting and unique maps otherwise. Maps that could ranked to offer something new and exciting and present it to a wide audience, which in turn allows the mapping meta to evolve at a faster pace.

Basically same as above, we need more people who are willing to help new mappers, so that their maps can reach the quality standards required for the ranked section. The proposed system doesn't solve this issue though.

rad proposal but it sounds like a really bad idea for mania

see:
community choice / best of (year)
splits between communities. larger sized one will always be favored

if you want something related to the nomination/qualification sides of this implemented, i suggest reformatting those sections and posting them to https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/842601 -- it's where related changes are likely to happen in the short term

going to archive this thread in the meantime

f