So the absurdity that maps after gameplay-related changes needs to wait 24 hours after a renomination in any case takes some ridiculous extent, map got disqualified because the second nominator did not "wait" the full 24 hours since minor changes were done to a different mode. While there is still a hot discussion how hybrid sets should be dealt in the future, it just plain stupid that the BN rules do not exactly state what is considered as minor change, nor that the definition changes from mapper to mapper, from BN to BN, from QAT to QAT. So I would like to set a concrete definition what must wait 24 hours and what doesn't, and what we consider as minor change and what isn't.


It is clear that addtions and removals of hitobjects counts as gameplay-related changes, as well the modification of inherited lines and hitsound and combo colour changes qualifies to changes to the gameplay. And being consistent at this point I would like to see something definite, because the current wording is extremely vauge:

At least 24 hours must pass between a first nomination and a qualification on every mapset, ignoring renominations for minor changes.

BN1 renominated the beatmap while BN2 from a different mode qualified the map within 24 hours although no changes where done to their mode.

Can we remove the 24h rule, nobody sees the appeal for such a wait after a DQed map. BNs are in a must to do a full check before renominating, doing it now or after 24h changes nothing.

Imagine a map that was DQd day 6,5 before rank, getting requalified instantly. This will only leave 24h for a QAT to react to possible mistakes, other than leaving 48h for QAT and 24h for BNs to react. Imagine how mad Mao will get after much more risk is being exposed to having to unrank stuff and severe stuff just floating by by allowing BNs to renominate as quickly as Maridius Proposed.

EDIT: I would propose the following:
"At least 24 hours must pass between a first nomination and a qualification on every mapset, ignoring renominations for minor changes. Minor changes are ones that do not affect gameplay"

Adding new Hitsounds will still be caught as major since well... the feedback is different, but that should be common sense.

this is the 3842nd time someone has been mad about this

just wait 24h it's not a long time, and qats are slow

Even blizzard changes stuff when enough people complain xd

The idea of the rule was to give modders time to give input about the game if something else could be changed before the map heads to the Qualified state and soon the Ranked section. In reality, that hardly happens. And the times where that happens are QATs involved that wants to nominate the maps on their own or wants the BNs to wait so they can give a full feedback of the disqualified map. So the scenario people actually use the 24 hours to recheck the map happens almost never. In this case common sense is used to avoid unnecessary delays to the map.

I get why MaridiuS wants something like that although I am not entirely sure if we urgently need it. It is however true in most cases you wait fully 24 hours for the sake of the rule, and not because of the efficiency of it.

I think the 24 hour rule is necessary. If there is a problem there should be a little extra time given to people so they can find more problems. I really don't think combo colour has anything to do with gameplay though.. What I think counts as gameplay is BPM changes, changes to the base slider velocity/slider tick rate, and addition or removal of hitobjects. What I think doesn't count is metadata, difficulty settings, slight changes to objects position, new combos, and hitsound volume.

tatatat wrote:

I really don't think combo colour has anything to do with gameplay though.. What I think counts as gameplay is BPM changes, changes to the base slider velocity/slider tick rate, and addition or removal of hitobjects. What I think doesn't count is metadata, difficulty settings, slight changes to objects position, new combos, and hitsound volume.

Combo Colours can blend badly to the background and cause worse playabiliy and can be as checked as combos themselves, changing the timing or slightly changing hitobject positioning.

24h rule should be a thing on first nomination and with major changes (example: timing, multiple gameplay reworks). for minor things it's just a pain in the butt, no reason to wait 24h for fixing a small pattern. that's how we used to do it on v1 too!

I also tend to find this rule quite annoying, and most of the time, basically useless. As it was already said, BNs must do a full check before qualifying, so doing it now or 24h later won't change anything.

Bubbled maps are barely checked anyways since the qualified section is already well fed, and was firstly created for this purpose.

Also, 24h cooldown feels right in the awkward timing of -it's too long for minor changes- and -too short for check-

I agree with Monstrata/Ascendance's points below ↓

think it should just be
24 hr after initial nomination
after nomination reset (either dq or pop), you must wait 24hr after the next nomination before qualify unless no change occurs from said reset (such as the issue being invalid or discussed why the map should be left as is), or changes are metadata only

sounds a lot simpler than defining major / minor changes, it's always really confusing what does and doesn't count, and defining what is major or not sounds like it would be prone to holes or gray areas still unless done super carefully :s

this would also leave it, to some extent, what is major/minor up to the discretion of the bn or qat looking at the map

24 hour rule is good for speedranks. It allows for people to carefully scrutinize a set that's getting speedranked, find issues, get their own set bubbled, and then pop the other set in order to win the speedrank and ensure quality content.

no.

For real though, the 24 hour rule is not necessary since the only time someone would pop a map within 24 hours is probably to target the mapper somehow. BN's have enough requests to go through. If a BN who you didn't ask, randomly comes to your map and pops it within 24 hours of it being nominated, more often than not, it's for some personal reason. Why? Because they specifically either waited for your map to get nominated, or suddenly made your map their top priority (why?) to pop within 24 hours. I think most pops that happen this way are not personally motivated, but they will seem that way to the mapper, because they did not ask you to check their map, and you for some reason made their map a priority to pop. Hope that makes sense.

Also, I think that if a map is qualified with obvious issues that come from rushing the nomination process, BN's should be adequately warned/penalized. Who knows, maybe if you allow BN's to rush, they'll become more accountable, since they won't necessarily have the safety net of a random third BN coming in to pop for credible issues (it does happen). (NOTE: OBVIOUS ISSUES = UNRANKABLE ISSUES!!! STOP THINKING MY NORMAL WITH 1.02 DS INSTEAD OF 1.00 DS IS AN ISSUE THAT CAN JEOPARDIZE YOUR BN CAREER MERCI ARIGATOU GOZAITHANKS)

There's nothing that can be done in that 24h period that can't be done in qualified apart from a BN popping the map, which, for the most part, can still be DQ'd over in qualified. The only thing the 24h rule prevents is speedranks which get dealt with in qualified anyways if their quality is low. The people who care about popping maps within that 24h time period are usually watching mapfeeds religiously anyways, they will find a way whether they have 2 hours or 24 hours to pop a map they want to pop. Also, for what it's worth, a majority of people aren't qualifying things within 24h of bub -> nomination anyways, removing the rule has no effect on a majority of people and only causes an inconvenience for whoever's left.

Anyway, before this is going to die I'd like to have some input to the ruling when you don't have to wait 24 hours to qualify a beatmap, since this was my issue in the first place.

The fact the '24 hours rule to wait' seems to feel outdated and not working that good like it used to exists but I would still consider to get the main topic here done.

at the very least I'd like to see a very exact listing of what requires 24h and what not, currently you get different answers depending which qat you ask for a lot of things...

Having recently disqualified a bunch of maps for pretty "minor" things I can confirm that it's difficult to know what is and isn't minor. I know a lot of qats follow the idea of that if any gameplay change is made, it should wait 24h; that basically being "are the replays of auto identical", but you could further argue that moving some circle 1 px is something that should be considered minor and so on. It'd essentially be impossible making a simple explanation of what is and isn't minor, which is probably why the rule doesn't try to explain that and instead decides to keep it vague.

If we do decide to completely remove the 24h rule, then the most effective strategy for getting your map into ranked would be to queue up two nominations and have them both apply at once, effectively skipping the bubbled stage. This way there is theoretically no possible way for a veto to happen, thereby getting your map into qualified without any "issues".

24 hours is a pretty short time to thoroughly check a map in regardless, and you could argue that anything getting past the bubbled stage should be caught in the qualified stage if it's actually important.

So if we want to keep allowing nominators to have a say in what reaches ranked assuming their reasoning is valid, as well as skip any unnecessary delays in the nomination process itself, what are your thoughts on allowing vetoes to happen in qualified?

For example, say some mapset has some pretty glaring issues which the mapper doesn't agree with being issues, and some nominator wants to fix those before it gets ranked. In the current system, they would post an issue and/or wait for a nomination and then officially veto the mapset in the 24 hours given, being unable to do anything once it's qualified. In this proposed system, however, they could do that same thing, but if the map reaches qualified they can still veto by posting the issue and requesting a disqualification with the veto as basis, thereby allowing for discussion to happen like usual. (note that who gets vetoed doesn't matter anymore with the changes to the veto rules)

This would remove the need for a 24h rule and still allow for vetoes to happen regardless of how the nomination process goes, basically fixing the whole delay thing while keeping all the actually important stuff intact. So instead of waiting for things that may happen during qualified, you have those things happen in qualified instead.

Potential drawbacks with this would include that people have a larger window to abuse the same song in qualified rule to get their own maps through and so on, but I think that's more of an issue with that rule than this.

The 24 hour rule was only introduced to give other BNs time to look at the map and veto it if they disagree so using it for every single gameplay change or even for changes on files does not make a whole lot of sense imo.

I'd keep it after the very first Nomination a mapset receives and for future Nominations only if there was an extremely change like adding a completely new difficulty or a difficulty being remapped. That way, we'd restore the actual purpose of the rule and get rid of all the unnecessary confusion it's causing at the moment.

keeping the 24h rule for first nomination -> qualify makes sense, since it allows people to voice their opinion/veto/... before a map gets qualified, which without the rule can happen right after the first bubble

outside of that i think it should only be really major changes, but that would need some clarification (remapping of parts or more than that etc.)
not something like moving one object in the timeline

So I disqualified a map earlier to day for the 24 hours thing because it was disqualified for something that would normally require a nomination reset, and those usually put a 24 hour timer on the map too. In my opinion as long as the 24 hour rule remains for resets, there should at least be 24 hours for disqualifications for the same reasons too (although metadata seems to be the exception to this right now which should or should change?).

I do think it's in the best interest of map quality to allow some time before a map gets requalified for people to check stuff (especially for something like a new diff), but I do agree that in most cases it seems to not serve much purpose. For example if a map was DQ'd to accept a suggestion to stack two objects, 24 hours doesn't seem to make much sense then.

The thing is though, the amount of people who would actively go through the trouble of stacking their two nominations to remove chance of veto is incredibly low. I like Naxess’ idea about vetoing in qualified but a lot of the stuff feels like it shouldn’t be punishing everyone else for the actions of a few bad seeds. In abuse cases like we see between anime speedranks target dqing each other, there should be punishments given out rather than fussing over a 24h timespan.

going off what people said deserves the 24hrs and what doesn't in the thread, i'd reword the rule to look like this:

At least 24 hours must pass between a first nomination and a qualification on every beatmap set if...

1. the beatmap has received no nominations prior.
2. a new difficulty/storyboard has been added.
3. a segment of a difficulty has been re-mapped.
4. the beatmap set has been changed in response to a nominator's veto.

Other situations do not require a 24 hour wait. This gives other Beatmap Nominators and also the wider community the chance to provide additional suggestions before qualification and veto the placed nomination if necessary.

with this, it should be clear what needs/doesnt need the delay. this doesn't account for naxess's alternate idea though

i agree with what pishi has proposed above, seems like the most reasonable way. but i would add significant hitsounding / storyboarding changes as well (like entire secitons, same as mapping)

The 24h rule itself can make sense, but we need to make it clear once and for all, because in many situations most of the BNs are confused on how it works and happen to make such mistakes.

What pishi provided seems like the best solution if you ask me, the 24h rule imo should be used only when we're having the first nomination ever or if the map was popped for a critical issue/big changes were done, else, if none of the two happens, then the timelapse between the first and second nomination shouldn't exist, let's not forget a map goes to qualified afterwards, so stuff can get easily noticed and fixed after that either way.

I would probably add "if a nomination has been reset due to unrankable issues" to that list too, but it looks good to me.

agree with what mo said, that is the safe thing to do especially also to cover maps with, for example, more complex timing issues. for the rest, pishi's list seems nice to me.

pishi's wording looks good to me too and covers what seems important, but could probably be expanded a bit for the aforementioned major timing and hitsounding changes

disagree with the mentioned point about unrankable pop, at least in general. a pop for a 2px offscreen slider or an unsnapped object should not reset 24h when considering the intention of the rule

The problem in adding a rule about unrankables is that it doesn't really differentiate between, say, massive timing changes that really impact the map and like lasse said, 2px offscreen sliders or one unsnapped object. More complex wording would have to be used for that, and I am not sure if it will still follow the real purpose and style of the ranking criterea in that case.

others have already said it, but 24hr wait after an unrankable pop isn't too necessary because a lot of unrankable things have no need for debate in those 24hrs

updated the list with the other things mentioned

At least 24 hours must pass between a first nomination and a qualification on every beatmap set if...

1. the beatmap set has received no nominations prior.
2. a new difficulty/storyboard has been added.
3. a segment of a difficulty, its storyboard, or its hitsounding have been redone.
4. complex timing has been adjusted.
5. the beatmap set has been changed in response to a nominator's veto.

Other situations do not require a 24 hour wait. This gives other Beatmap Nominators and also the wider community the chance to provide additional suggestions before qualification and veto the placed nomination if necessary.

anything else?

Assuming this is a change to both pre-qualify nomination and disqualified nomination, then I'm fine with that change.

Very happy with that change. Just one more thing I am curious about: What about the case of Hybrid sets?

So let's say the map has an osu!std and Taiko set and the mapper is about to ask one BN of each mode, osu!BN nominates the beatmap but taiko BN wrote plenty of things that would require to wait 24 hours and changes were applied (no veto happened), however no changes were done to the standard set. afterwards the taiko BN decides to renominate the mapset:

Does the osu!BN have to wait 24hrs although no other changes happened to the standard set or would it be fine for them to move forward without waiting 24 hours?

just a question, i think pishi's proposed wording is great but i still think there maybe some mild debate on what a "segment" is, whether the segment is long enough to require to wait or short enough to be considered minor

perhaps this might not be an issue that needs to be addressed, but i thought i'd bring it up just in case c:

Stefan wrote:

Does the osu!BN have to wait 24hrs although no other changes happened to the standard set or would it be fine for them to move forward without waiting 24 hours?

waiting would be needed since the 24 hours isn't only for the other bn to check things. it's for everyone else to have time to react and comment before qualifying

incandescence wrote:

just a question, i think pishi's proposed wording is great but i still think there maybe some mild debate on what a "segment" is, whether the segment is long enough to require to wait or short enough to be considered minor

i'd think of it as something a modder would post in the general tab instead of the timeline. defining an exact # of objects or amount of time would suck because what's enough to matter would vary between maps. if you want something in the ballpark of "enough to require a wait", i'd say like 5 seconds of mapping (which is about 4 measures of 180bpm)