Sorry, but it's not the entirely same thing. Or better if I say it's NOT the same.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
You must avoid all current bugs within the hyperfruit system to keep your map passable. These will be gone over later on, below.
You shall control if it's fixed ...
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Catch the Beat Rules/Guidelines Discussion Thread
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Topic Starter
That was a bug involving DT (less Hdashes than usual) and HT modes (more Hdahes). Now there are the same Hdashes with NoMod/DT/HT, and of course the same bugs in gameplay (pixel jumps, etc).HakuNoKaemi wrote:
You must avoid all current bugs within the hyperfruit system to keep your map passable. These will be gone over later on, below.
You shall control if it's fixed ...
There's no need to nuke that rule.
gomen, confusion over dash-fruit
We don't have any guideline/rule for minimal spinner lenght and I think we should, not permiting things like 1/4 spinner makes pretty much sense in my eyes. Of course there's a rule for standards spinner (min 1000 with auto) but I think they can be a little shorter in CtB since a player can't combo break or have a 50/100 on a spinner.
Imo : A good minimal lenght could be 1/4 stanza (for a non doubled bpm) and it has to be a rule not a guideline.
I was thinking about that while mapping so i'll link the map as an example so everyone can judge if it is or not rankable : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/60331 first spinner of the map at 00:14:046 (1) -
We could also determine for the guideline the max lenght of a spinner with stanza too. But it's harder cause the density of a spinner is kinda random :s
Imo : A good minimal lenght could be 1/4 stanza (for a non doubled bpm) and it has to be a rule not a guideline.
I was thinking about that while mapping so i'll link the map as an example so everyone can judge if it is or not rankable : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/60331 first spinner of the map at 00:14:046 (1) -
We could also determine for the guideline the max lenght of a spinner with stanza too. But it's harder cause the density of a spinner is kinda random :s
Topic Starter
After the long speech yesterday night at #ctb (couldn't /savelog the whole conversation) and some testplay in Editor, seems like there can be a minimum spinner lenght of 1/1 in normal conditions (and 2/1 when the BPM is doubled). A good example can be the recently ranked spboxer3's diff in Carly Rae Jepsen - Call Me Maybe (Nightcore Mix) - BPM=138: There are 2 1/1 spinners at the end of the song that looked nice and fun to play.
However, it cannot be set as a rule yet due to the subjectivity of the spinners in CTB (they're randomly created) and the BPM of the song. This'll need more testplay in different BPMs.
Some tests were made as well to a 1/3 map I'm making, which melody is very similar to Hatsune Miku & Megpoid Gumi - Ashurashurashura - BPM=200:
- Distance note-spinner: 1/3 seems to be a bit close, but perfectly readable with the new spinner system (the current guideline states that 1/2 should be the minimum distance).
- Minimum spinner lenght: A 1/1 spinner seemed to be a bit poor and short, but 2/1 looked much better (Probable double BPM'd song?).
However, it cannot be set as a rule yet due to the subjectivity of the spinners in CTB (they're randomly created) and the BPM of the song. This'll need more testplay in different BPMs.
Some tests were made as well to a 1/3 map I'm making, which melody is very similar to Hatsune Miku & Megpoid Gumi - Ashurashurashura - BPM=200:
- Distance note-spinner: 1/3 seems to be a bit close, but perfectly readable with the new spinner system (the current guideline states that 1/2 should be the minimum distance).
- Minimum spinner lenght: A 1/1 spinner seemed to be a bit poor and short, but 2/1 looked much better (Probable double BPM'd song?).
You remember well last night Deif~~ (sorry).
^this post only means that I agree with Deif.
^this post only means that I agree with Deif.
Okay i've made a little video over hyperdash canceling mechanics.
It shows that not all hyperdash cancels are impossible to catch (by starting the first beat in the side of the fruit some are catchable) but it's really easy to make a mistake of some pixel to make it impossible.
http://fr.twitch.tv/drafura/b/339578796
Maybe you can add it in the hyperfruit section to illustrate the bug.
It shows that not all hyperdash cancels are impossible to catch (by starting the first beat in the side of the fruit some are catchable) but it's really easy to make a mistake of some pixel to make it impossible.
http://fr.twitch.tv/drafura/b/339578796
Maybe you can add it in the hyperfruit section to illustrate the bug.
wht bwt maps which naturally have lots of spinners?Drafura wrote:
Okay i've made a little video over hyperdash canceling mechanics.
It shows that not all hyperdash cancels are impossible to catch (by starting the first beat in the side of the fruit some are catchable) but it's really easy to make a mistake of some pixel to make it impossible.
http://fr.twitch.tv/drafura/b/339578796
Maybe you can add it in the hyperfruit section to illustrate the bug.
Sorry i don't understand what you mean.shaddisc wrote:
wht bwt maps which naturally have lots of spinners?
Maybe it isDrafura wrote:
Sorry i don't understand what you mean.shaddisc wrote:
wht bwt maps which naturally have lots of spinners?
What about maps which naturally have a lot of spinners?._. because
WTH Btw maps which ....doesn't make alot of sense
anyway .... uhhh i don't know
btw. nice video drafura
Topic Starter
Pretty useful video, nice job! It explains nicely how pixel jumps are generated, so every non CTB player can understand it. Added to the OP.
What about a rule about droplets (not slider ticks) ? Since droplets are part of the few ways to determine wich play is better compared to another one. I think it's important to make sure every ranked CtB diffs have droplets in at least one slider (Not only slider ticks I mean). Maybe this should go better for guideline in case of some special cases like "a map without any sliders".
Discuss...
Discuss...
Then we can also add spinners to that, too. (recommendation).
^^
What else can I say about droplets mmmmh...
All droplets have to be catchable but we already have that as a rule
Try using sliders with droplets and spinners in a map to prevent "first comes first ranks" mapsokay that is a terrible formulation xD
^^
What else can I say about droplets mmmmh...
All droplets have to be catchable but we already have that as a rule
I'll have to agree with this.
If the slider tick rate is 4, there will be no droplets at all, only ticks.
This may feel fun for sliders, but all it means is if you get an FC, you'll get an SS automatically. This kind of ruins the point of getting an S and then realizing you still weren't perfect. It takes out some of the challenge and accuracy that is inserted into CTB, much like spinner-free songs do.
I never use slider tick rate 4 for my maps (In fact, I often use tick rate 1, contrary to belief.)
Now that this is a Catch the Beat Rules/Guidelines thread..
I might as well think that if a song is at least 1/3 or 1/2 hyperfruits, it shouldn't be rankable. I never noticed anyone come to a set limit on this. The thing is, a map shouldn't rely on only hyperfruit to be fun. Charles445's maps have little to no hyperdashes when converted to CtB. And they're fun just the way they are.
If the slider tick rate is 4, there will be no droplets at all, only ticks.
This may feel fun for sliders, but all it means is if you get an FC, you'll get an SS automatically. This kind of ruins the point of getting an S and then realizing you still weren't perfect. It takes out some of the challenge and accuracy that is inserted into CTB, much like spinner-free songs do.
I never use slider tick rate 4 for my maps (In fact, I often use tick rate 1, contrary to belief.)
Now that this is a Catch the Beat Rules/Guidelines thread..
I might as well think that if a song is at least 1/3 or 1/2 hyperfruits, it shouldn't be rankable. I never noticed anyone come to a set limit on this. The thing is, a map shouldn't rely on only hyperfruit to be fun. Charles445's maps have little to no hyperdashes when converted to CtB. And they're fun just the way they are.
Timing jumps are also good to give some challenge. Charles445's maps are mostly contains that.
We have a hyperfruit rule (even though it is guideline)Kitokofox wrote:
Now that this is a Catch the Beat Rules/Guidelines thread..
I might as well think that if a song is at least 1/3 or 1/2 hyperfruits, it shouldn't be rankable. I never noticed anyone come to a set limit on this. The thing is, a map shouldn't rely on only hyperfruit to be fun. Charles445's maps have little to no hyperdashes when converted to CtB. And they're fun just the way they are.
Bear in mind that CtB difficulties are meant to be fun to play, not a random experimentation with the editor. Make sure your map is fun, even if it's difficult! This comes only with practice. This includes making sure you don't spam 20 hyperdashes in a row - that's not fun, that's exhausting and frustrating.
Topic Starter
Regarding Tick Rate, maybe it's better to use common sense:
- 1/3 song: Normally 1, or even 3 could fit.
- Non 1/3 song: 1 or 2, depends on the pace of the music or background sounds.
As soon as maps have droplets i'm ok.
Topic Starter
Oh, you were talking about droplets... My bad, I must've misread your post.
That'll depend on the lenght of the sliders you include to the beatmap, and its BPM. Sometimes at high speeds 1/2 sliders don't generate a single droplet in them, but it's still quite hard to not have a single droplet if you add sliders to your beatmap.
If nobody has any other idea, maybe it's good to revise or rephrase the current rules/guidelines to include a finalised version in the wiki.
That'll depend on the lenght of the sliders you include to the beatmap, and its BPM. Sometimes at high speeds 1/2 sliders don't generate a single droplet in them, but it's still quite hard to not have a single droplet if you add sliders to your beatmap.
If nobody has any other idea, maybe it's good to revise or rephrase the current rules/guidelines to include a finalised version in the wiki.
I think this rule should be removed already so I ask a permission for this:
Max Score: The max score for a CtB difficulty for ranking is 30-32 million. CtB naturally has much higher scores due to how fruits are scored, so the limit is higher than standard. This number is taking the normal maximum of standard (18m) and translating it to ctb (23-26m) and adding on a bit since CtB-only diffs will allow for more strenuous notes (longer streams, for example). Any higher should be within an approval mapset.I think everybody know why.
Yes it should, go ahead.
Sakura wrote:
Yes it should, go ahead.
Oh, look at another CtB rule:
I think this rule should be removed or moved to guidelines.
UPD:
Avoid placing notes closer than 1/2 to a spinner (1/2 is acceptable) as far as possible. This is because, depending on the BPM of the song and length of the spinner self, fruits are largely indistinguishable from spinner fruits when too close together.But since spinner fruits are bananas maybe there is no need in this rule anymore?
I think this rule should be removed or moved to guidelines.
UPD:
*Avoid placing notes closer than 1/2 beat after a spinner. That will make the notes near a spinner easier to read/sightread from the banana heaven, helping the player to place the Ryuuta in the correct position for the 1st fruit after a spinner.Almost the same rule in gudelines...
Topic Starter
No, that rule was rephrased and moved to guidelines. Many rules have changed since they were uploaded to the wiki, check the changelog of this thread to see the last modifications.
By the way:
It's probably time to discuss and state the differences between the levels of difficulty, and the recommended difficulty settings for each.
By the way:
This is pretty outdated. There are already ranked difficulties under the Insane level (Platter or less), and a Cup level with AR6 coming up: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/53810
- The recommended Approach Rate for a catch the beat difficulty of "normal" difficulty (in accordance with Taiko, this is the "insane"-ish level of play, not an actual "normal") is AR8. AR9 can be used for faster paced songs as determined by the mapper, but AR10 should never be used for a below-superinsane level of play.
It's probably time to discuss and state the differences between the levels of difficulty, and the recommended difficulty settings for each.
The problem is about ryuuta placement in the end of spinner. Spinners have "patterns" and in the end of a spinner you can be leaded to the right side of the screen for example, if you have a fruit 1/4 in the left side of the screen you're going to miss it a lot of time, you'll pretty much have to learn it to don't miss it.[Dellirium] wrote:
But since spinner fruits are bananas maybe there is no need in this rule anymore?
To explain better why this have nothing to do with bananas. It's like saying in standard : "Don't spin the end of your spinner cause you have to start moving now if you want to hit the next object".
We could add something like : "If your next fruit is at 1/4 in the exit point of the spinner it would be acceptable", but since each players read the spinners their own way it's very hard to say what's the exit point of each possible spinners (according the exit point isn't the last fruit of spinner but where the spinner's patterns leads your ryuuta in the end).
My thought about ARs and jump difficulty (this is only my opinion so please discuss) :Deif wrote:
It's probably time to discuss and state the differences between the levels of difficulty, and the recommended difficulty settings for each.
Cup : AR6 with no big jumps, easy and rare hyperdashes allowed to introduce them to new players. (I think a Cup could be HR'd by most players so AR7 will be a bit fast)
Salad : AR7 or 8 with rare big jumps (not more than one or two), easy and some hyperdashes allowed.
Platter : AR8 or 9 with some big jumps in AR8 and rare big jumps in AR9, hyperdashes are pretty free but not allowed to chain them in different directions.
Rain : AR8 or 9 with big jumps in AR8 and some big jumps in AR9, hyperdashes are free until they respect rules/guidelines ofc.
Overdose : AR9 no limit until it respect rules/etc... Just keep in mind that ALL jumps and hyperdashes have to make sense in the song (this is obvious but some mappers seems to forget that).
Deluge : AR10. My opinion on AR10 mapping is to avoid all not sightreadable jumps but since there's no example of this kind of mapping it's really hard to say what could be allowed/banned from AR10 maping.
When I say easy hyperdashes I'm talking about the timeline and the spacing. A 1/4 hyperdash isn't considered as easy due to instability of ryuuta. If in your map settings the hyperdash is triggered at x2.00 h-spacing the hyperdash is considered as easy if you put it at max x2.10 , imo.
When I say big jump I'm talking about spacing : If your hyperdash is triggered at x2.00 h-spacing placing it at min x1.80 makes it huge, again imo.
If you have two or more difficulties in the mapset for example Platter and Rain you can't do Platter AR9 and Rain AR8. Only AR8 AR8 / AR9 AR9 / AR8 AR9 would be allowed.
I still think an AR9 cup is possible but this would make the rule very hard to build. <- This is a different approach of the diff spread wich consist of learning to play certain AR instead of certain patterns.
Hi, because this is the CTB guidelines & discussion thread , i think I'll post on the main point 
About the general rule, is it okay to proof a beatmap that SSable within part by part pattern ? [Ex: If the song had 300 max combo, we split into 3 parts (100 pattern combo on that song) & SS ing the 3 part] because i think it'll be useful later for mapper.
now for my opinion about the Category for CTB diff :
Cup : I agree with Drafura, it must be on AR6 ( on some reason It will quite simmilar to standard diff , because most player will playing that with mod)
Salad : Same too , also i think the big jump's timing are make no to sudden (like 1/4 short jump)
Platter : AR8 or AR9 , big jumps & hyperdashes are acceptable/allowed but try try to avoid jump like this : http://puu.sh/1AM7H (*even it's catchable) , also i think 1/4 jump would be bad in this diff
Rain : AR8 or AR9 , for the jumps i think 1/4 jump on AR8 is acceptable because it's suit on the diff.
Sorry X_X
About the general rule, is it okay to proof a beatmap that SSable within part by part pattern ? [Ex: If the song had 300 max combo, we split into 3 parts (100 pattern combo on that song) & SS ing the 3 part] because i think it'll be useful later for mapper.
Sorry X_X
What? no, do not ever restrict difficulty names, i have removed that from the ranking criteria on the wiki.
make easy n normal more hard due to lots of play experience over 3 years
Maybe should move them to guidelines or create a recommendation section for them?Sakura wrote:
What? no, do not ever restrict difficulty names, i have removed that from the ranking criteria on the wiki.
Topic Starter
In this thread, that was moved to Guidelines a month and a half ago...
Guess someone messed up then because it was in the rules section.
Like we care about diff names... It's about having a better view on what is the diff spread for each ENHIXX difficulties... If you guys never finish a discution this isn't going far imo. urs your point of view is welcome.
Or maybe I misunderstood you Sakura and you're saying that diff spread isn't important anymore ?
Or maybe I misunderstood you Sakura and you're saying that diff spread isn't important anymore ?
Nah, on the wiki it said that the diff names had to be those names, which should never be a requirement for any mode, mappers are free to name their diffs in however way they want 
...so I asked for moving these 'rules' to guidelines instead deleting them...
Topic Starter
The whole wiki page about CTB ranking criteria is pretty out-to-date, compared to this thread 
By the way, Sakura, explain this please:
Why did you replace {{RC}} with this?
And this:
I thought we have reached an agreement here.
Why did you replace {{RC}} with this?
And this:
I thought we have reached an agreement here.
That's weird, i only removed the text about the naming stuff as in this:
maybe it bugged? o.o
Edit: Oh i think i may have reverted since i was looking for the time the rule was added to simply do a revert rather than edit it out, maybe it remembered the spot i was at when i clicked Edit /me is dumb with wikis.
maybe it bugged? o.o
Edit: Oh i think i may have reverted since i was looking for the time the rule was added to simply do a revert rather than edit it out, maybe it remembered the spot i was at when i clicked Edit /me is dumb with wikis.
I think you edited an old version of the page, yeah
If I remember well this has been added to make sure all droplets are on screen. salad! can't actually help to know this : It can actually SS this (very old) map http://osu.ppy.sh/s/281 wich have sliders going offscreen. Plus the rule is redundant with the standard one :Deif wrote:
Autoplay (salad!) must SS the map. Nevertheless, it doesn't show you what jumps are bugged/impossible to catch.
I can't find map any map with object on screen having uncatachable things (by a player, even with HR) if it exist please link it this should call for a specific rule to ctb. By on-screen I'm talking about having ALL objects and slider points in the mapping grid not like this :Wiki wrote:
Hitobjects must never be off-screen. All mapsets are played from a fixed-screen viewpoint, so any hitobjects that are even partially off-screen can make it very difficult to read the pattern they are following. Test play your map to confirm this.
This is off-screen right ?
No. This is offscreen:Drafura wrote:
This is off-screen right ?
SPOILER
Or:
Or even:
Slider goes offscreen at the bottom. By the way, this map is approved.
Or:
Or even:
Slider goes offscreen at the bottom. By the way, this map is approved.
Ok, thanks for correcting me. So this point still require a specific rule. Also should rules take in account game modifiers like HR : http://osu.ppy.sh/s/38013 This map actually have droplets impossible to catch with HR (the second slider), it is ranked and following [Dellirium] says all objects are on-screen. salad! can SS HR it, human being can't.
Maybe something like :
Maybe something like :
All objects including slider points have to be in the mapping grid.Could work as rule.
Topic Starter
More examples! In this map, that fruit is uncatchable by humans, even with EasyMode:
Another one, not related to droplets/fruits out of the screen. In this case it's due to objects inside the spinner, which are theorically catchable by humans, but not for Auto:
However, it's unrankable to put an object inside a spinner and this is just an exceptional case to troll players.
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- Scoreboard: http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=423&m=2
Another one, not related to droplets/fruits out of the screen. In this case it's due to objects inside the spinner, which are theorically catchable by humans, but not for Auto:
- Map: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/13320 (link on description)
However, it's unrankable to put an object inside a spinner and this is just an exceptional case to troll players.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's already a rule in the osu!standard ranking criteria (but NOT in the General ranking criteria) regarding that:Drafura wrote:
All objects including slider points have to be in the mapping grid.
Hitobjects must never be off-screenI guess something like Drafura said could be added to Rules, instead of the current "Auto must SS" one. What do you think?
Well it depends on what is offscreen in CtB ("Impossible to catch while playing" could be good enough but keeping all objects on grid will allways avoid the bug that's why I thinked about it), and if HR have to be taken in account, I think it should.
Topic Starter
To be honest, I've never seen a ranked map (CTB specific) impossible to SS with HR. It doesn't really matter if Auto cannot catch everything in standard-to-CTB maps.
Should mods as HR be taken into account while modding a CTB map? No, in my opinion. I wonder how many players would do them with that mod, or if the fruit generator of HR would put an off-screen fruit (I really doubt that).
Should mods as HR be taken into account while modding a CTB map? No, in my opinion. I wonder how many players would do them with that mod, or if the fruit generator of HR would put an off-screen fruit (I really doubt that).
That's why i'm thinking about on-grid instead of on-screen to be sure that even an easy ctb diff will not generate this kind of problems with HR.
Topic Starter
I'm specially happy to remove this paragraph
(Some other lines of the OP shall be rearranged. I'll try to do it as soon as I arrive home).
Pixel jumps are now part of the past, but maybe it's time to set some guidelines (or limits) for HDashes, as the current "in-slider jumps" one.
- Pixel jumps: A rare bug that involves three fruit in a row being uncatchable. Here is a self-explanatory video of how pixel jumps are generated.
(Some other lines of the OP shall be rearranged. I'll try to do it as soon as I arrive home).
Remove the In-Slider jumps bug please, it isn't a problem anymore.
Since the Catch the Beat ranking criterias are established now (see Wiki), I'll mark this with a heart.
Please treat every rule for Catch the Beat as any other. Read every post of this thread to see, how to discuss further changes on the Catch the Beat ranking criteria:
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/56754
Heart'd
Please treat every rule for Catch the Beat as any other. Read every post of this thread to see, how to discuss further changes on the Catch the Beat ranking criteria:
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/56754
Heart'd
Seph
@Seph read what I wrote above