The chances of you reading this in Off-Topic are pretty slim, however I feel this is something that needs to be addressed.

You have said yourself in the past several times that you do not have the spare time to manage the BAT yourself, this thread is assuming that this is still the case. You have left this responsibility on the BAT manager/Community Manager who may or may not be doing a fine job, the problem I am seeing time and again lies in what the BAT itself is. BAT appears to be a group of members who are given, among other things, the power to moderate the community, whose entry requirements are based entirely around their ability to mod maps. I think it might be obvious what I am going to say now but the problem is that you are basically employing fine dining critiques to manage public security.

What I believe needs to happen is a split in the responsibilities a BAT member is given, they are made a BAT member for their ability to mod maps not their ability to manage and moderate the community. I understand that removing the moderation powers of the BAT leaves the number of moderators rather short handed to the 14 GMT/GreenBAT members, thus I see three probable outcomes.

The creation of a new team specifically for community moderation. This would require the overall management of someone who you trust extremely well to uphold what your ideals are for the community, something which you have said yourself in the past is a highly uncommon occurrence.

The expansion of the GMT/GreenBAT. I personally do not consider this outcome to be very likely as the GMT/GreenBAT seem to be a group purposed for osu! development.

The dismissal of this idea. Fairly likely to happen, either due to a lack of correct information on my part or a lack of foresight or desire to change the current situation on peppy's.

Posting this in Off-Topic for discussion/feedback (Although expecting it to be fairly terrible due to current community circumstances).

Shit's about to get real.

But I think BATs are chosen on more then just the ability to mod maps. I was talking to a lot of people who complained that they didn't get MAT positions, and I told them that it was because although they were good modders, they didn't exemplify qualities of a good player.

Unless I'm mistaken on the process, there's a lot more that goes into being a BAT then just modding maps, but maturity within the community and the ability to be a leader and stuff also exist.

Hence why I'll never be a BAT no matter how well I mod ;D.

[Official mode]
I appreciate the post quite a bit, Shellghost. You raise some very fine points that have been indeed pointed out both to the BAT as a whole and peppy himself about the hiccups and roadbumps that the BAT system has. I would like to point out, however, that being a BAT is not purely about mapping and modding, although to become one you essentially have to be a mapper or modder due to how promotions work. Being promoted to BAT also implies the maturity to be able to moderate your fellow person, and while it's not the most integral part of being a BAT, it's a requirement. It's quite possible to argue that whatever mystical screening process judges this is sometimes faulty, but at the core, that's the concept.

But you're also right on another point - because moderating as a BAT is not a requirement, nay, it isn't even really encouraged outside of "answer reports kekeke", there are no "dedicated" moderators for the forums, especially certain sublanguages (I'll talk about the sublanguages in a bit). While I approve of the forum moderation ideas, putting them into actual practice is more difficult.

In regards to sublanguage moderators, due to how Bancho is coded, it's not possible for a person to be granted rights only for one channel, so any moderators for a language must A) Be able to speak the language in question very fluently, B) Be able to speak English to communicate with other moderators fluently, and B) Be trusted enough in both their language's community AND the 'core' english community. Basically, sublanguage moderators in-game such as La Cataline, senaya, and Dragvon are there because they're trusted enough to be moderators anyway, with the added specific purpose of moderating their respective languages. These kinds of people are very hard to come by in this community, so can generally be counted on one hand.


On the other hand, shellghost, with the way the system works, you will also end up with BATs that are more into the moderation aspect of it as well as the modding. As a shameless plug, I'd like to think I'm one of them - I certainly don't actually play this game =p. The general populace can't really tell these "moderator BATs" from "modding BATs", so that's an unclear distinction. I for one welome any PMs (in-game is fastest~) regarding something you have questions about / want to report quickly. I also notice that the "report post" function isn't often used. Try spreading the word around about that - it highlights threads with a huge-ass, annoying exclamation point to moderators.

[un-official]

non-shitpost ilu shelly!!!1 naer valhalla post if thread has good content!

The biggest issue with the BAT from what I'm seeing is that they don't reply to report equivocally. Depending on who you ask and how well they are informed a report or a dispute can swing either way, which is something that should just not exist. friendok is like pandora's box in the community that no one apparently has the heart to ban him since he is constantly allowed back on after numerous infringements but on the other hand some BATs keep locking every thread he makes, so that has to show somewhere that they don't want him here, else he'd be on mod queue since forever.

Some people just are not BAT material regardless of their skill mostly because how partial they stand in the community and I appreciate the effort that is put into the selection criterium, but the point still stands that the aspect of knowing how to moderate a forum isn't looked at or isn't look at enough.

I don't want to re-enter the debacle of WOJJAN 4 OT MOD but we definitely need more moderation forumwise. I however can't tell if the issue lies that we need more people or that we need better people. If this is about Off-Topic, I think that we are actually doing quite well with our current moderators (Ephemeral, Loginer and Shiirn occasionally) but we just lack a definition. peppy himself has Off-topic all wrong thinking that that's just the place where you post spam and go HUEHUEHUEHUEHUE all day. phill's ruleset is heavily outdated and is more of a general principle than a clear list of things you can get banned for. OT is supposed to be the place where rules are more lenient, but the rules are very much still in play, and that part is what escapes most users, even modmins and peppy himself. Once we have a ruleset and moderators who will ban for overturning that ruleset we, on our own, are good to go.

You are a brave, brave man for posting this in OT.

inb4 a shitstorm of tl;dr's

@Wojjan: I personally don't even see a reason for off-topic to exist. General discussion is already an "off-topic" forum, so where does that leave off-topic as a forum? "Shitpost 24/7" is pretty much where it ended up.

I've had the chancy honor of speaking with our lovable scamp Sakura Hana about the portuguese OT thread, and though it hasn't brought much aid since the same PM I sent to Loginer and peppy and the big man came down to lock it personally (which I by the way think is a terrific move on his part, I much appreciated his intereference) I did learn that regarding the decision to make those threads in the first place peppy himself didn't have much to do with it. Sakura Hana interpreted the words her said, which was not much more than "if it's in OT then it's alright but otherwise give them a warning" which I assume meant "in OT shitposts get dealt with anyway sooner or later but deal with it more fervorously if it's in the place you don't post crap" and unless I'm mistaken Sakura Hana took this to mean "make a thread in OT for their shitposts," which wasn't the intention at all.

There is a thin line between contentless posts and shitposts, and it's often hard to concreetly tell which is which, since it's a matter of both objectivity and subjectivity. That makes OT one of the hardest forums to moderate. But it's still a good one to have around. The difference lies that in GD, every post is expected to have content, and every thread is expected to have purpose and isn't just "I ate a grape today" whereas in OT there's threads and threads designed just for the unimportant stuff you'd else see end up in GD. OT has become the gangbunch of osu! which isn't much more than injokes and glue, but it's our gangbunch and many people would have little reason to stick were it to be taken away, me included.

Ask yourself, Lybydose, why you lock threads in OT if you feel that's the case.

Thank you Shiirn for correcting me on several parts.

In description and theory the ideal of what the BAT is seems fairly solid however in practicality it's simply proving otherwise far too often.

I still believe a distinction between who the people are that rank maps and who the people are that moderate the community would be a step in the right direction. Of course as a side note, this isn't to say that a member has to either rank maps or moderate, you yourself provided the fact that there are people who are considered competent in doing both and I in no way desire to halt them from doing so. However the self management of course would lead to criteria leniency which leads to slight shifts in internal ideals, which I believe a split in responsibility would have it's impact on the community upon unfortunate circumstances softened or diminished entirely if there wasn't such a large amount of power in the position.

Sub-language moderation might be another matter although I think it does still tie into this discussion. Not personally knowing much about coding gives me no grounds to suggest so but I would personally consider altering the coding of Bancho to allow specific language moderation. Actually, that wouldn't really solve anything on the matter since you still need to be able to communicate with the Sub-language moderators fluently for quality assurance...

This is too interesting to be on Off-topic.

Also, I'm agree with Shellghost.

Moved to announcements. Welcome to uber-valhalla. (Several silly valhalla threads would bury this masterpiece)

Shiirn wrote:

I also notice that the "report post" function isn't often used. Try spreading the word around about that - it highlights threads with a huge-ass, annoying exclamation point to moderators.

Tell me where it went and I will use it.

.............good point, where'd it go.

[22:14:42] <@ppy> use !report

Anyways, I agree that more forum moderation is necessary. However, I don't think adding a whole new team is necessary. Given that both BATs and MATs aren't managed very well in the first place (ztrot isn't MATman anymore; jericho is inactive; and there is no BAT manager other than peppy himself), I think it'd be worth focusing on people who already have the power to moderate (and getting them active).

The thing is, the sections after "Beatmaps" in the forums are like a big contradiction, an Off-Topic section should mean that the threads posted in it should be unrelated to the main forum's attention (in this case osu!), General discussion should be related to General osu! discussion, things like videogames and otaku culture should be in the off-topic section since they arent related to osu!.

But then that's my idea of an off-topic section i guess.

On the BAT moderation, BATs are given the ability to moderate forums if they so want to do so, they are encouraged to help out with moderation, not discouraged from it.

Fwiw I had said I'd be more than willing to take on the extra workload again but I've been turned down for one reason or another, in regards to the MATman stuff

Moderating people =/= Moderating maps.

I agree with Shellghost with the fact that we actually need more people moderating people as well as more distinction between those that focus more on mapping moderation or people moderation. I also believe that all of those people moderating a sub-language section, should just become a green BAT (or whatever team, maybe create a new team that only has forum and chat moderation powers and void them from ranking maps powers, inb4 they are given those powers to encourage them to mod maps), I mean, they already have the ability to moderate, as well as they already have the community's trust, so what's really the problem?

Also who knows, peppy do seems to have an idea to change a bit how the things works (particularly the map raking process), but I have been hearing about that since like forever.

tbh there really are only a very small handful of mods that have full access and this is often why you are told "I'm sorry I can't do anything about that." Sadly the ones trusted with these tasks, usually tend to lead busy lives being able to at most spend a hour or two a day online.

If you have an issue with any specific BAT, then please make it known (PM or in here). From what I understand, a post like this could only be fuelled by a moderation action that you have not agreed with.

I don't see a need to "split" any team. I would rather re-train or discuss potential issues with individuals you may have.

peppy wrote:

If you have an issue with any specific BAT, then please make it known (PM or in here)

Via Private Message, which was ignored twice:

those wrote:

those wrote:

Hello, jericho2442.
I was wondering how one would apply to become a MAT. If I could get some infos regarding this matter, that would be awesome.
Thanks.

Hi there.
It seems you have read my message and somehow disregarded it. Perhaps you didn't have the time to reply, but if you could get back to me, that would be best.
Thanks.

peppy wrote:

If you have an issue with any specific BAT, then please make it known (PM or in here).

whymeman.

Alace

you should also provide a valid reason.

GladiOol wrote:

peppy wrote:

If you have an issue with any specific BAT, then please make it known (PM or in here).

whymeman.

Completely dead serious. He's a hypocrite when it comes to #osu chat, and *strictly rumours* he's a hypocrite when it comes to modding as well.

I didn't know about this thread until SapphireGhost (<3 you buddy), told me about it so I didn't think to take any screenshots

Please provide some kind of evidence if you want to make such accusations.

peppy wrote:

If you have an issue with any specific BAT, then please make it known (PM or in here). From what I understand, a post like this could only be fuelled by a moderation action that you have not agreed with.

lol...I actually agree with peppy on the OP's personal BAT issue part.
My little opinion will be, a 5-minute silence on public channel, though may not sound too great to be an issue to an outsider, but to those affected...It essentially tells them to shut up onto, maybe the rest of an ongoing, serious conversation or discussion on the channel, using your own moderator power.
BATs really need to be careful and think twice before silencing people...because it will make all of the BATs look bad if people didn't get convinced by your action...

peppy wrote:

I don't see a need to "split" any team. I would rather re-train or discuss potential issues with individuals you may have.

Actually, I have my own confusions about the general role of green BATs...

senaya wrote:

you should also provide a valid reason.

I agree.

Honestly, I still want an explanation from Shiirn as to why this was justified:



It appears that his reason was feeble at best. I didn't notice the silence, so it didn't really affect me at all. However, given that Shiirn has a tendency to charge into making decisions, I worry that his actions are too spontaneous and ill thought out.

If needed, then I'll paste the chat, but those who were around at the time would know the situation.

Chatlog required (though i thought shiirn was not a BAT anymore..?)

D33d wrote:

Honestly, I still want an explanation from Shiirn as to why this was justified:



It appears that his reason was feeble at best. I didn't notice the silence, so it didn't really affect me at all. However, given that Shiirn has a tendency to charge into making decisions, I worry that his actions are too spontaneous and ill thought out.

If needed, then I'll paste the chat, but those who were around at the time would know the situation.

I'm coming out of the blue here and I don't know the background context, but it's just five minutes.

Different moderators have different points of views, I learned this the hard way. If one thinks you deserved to be silenced, then that's on his or her discretion. The reason for the infraction list is so that you ~do not know~ which chat OP silenced you.

Being a BAT does include making decisions, what is your point with what you just said? His actions do have logic behind it more times than not.

dkun wrote:

D33d wrote:

Honestly, I still want an explanation from Shiirn as to why this was justified:



It appears that his reason was feeble at best. I didn't notice the silence, so it didn't really affect me at all. However, given that Shiirn has a tendency to charge into making decisions, I worry that his actions are too spontaneous and ill thought out.

If needed, then I'll paste the chat, but those who were around at the time would know the situation.

I'm coming out of the blue here and I don't know the background context, but it's just five minutes.

Different moderators have different points of views, I learned this the hard way. If one thinks you deserved to be silenced, then that's on his or her discretion. The reason for the infraction list is so that you ~do not know~ which chat OP silenced you.

Being a BAT does include making decisions, what is your point with what you just said? His actions do have logic behind it more times than not.

Like I said, it's not a big issue and I don't want to make it too big--I just wanted to flag it up. I should've mentioned this already, but Shiirn was apparently very quiet about the silence when he was asked to give reasons. I can't say any more than that. Remember that even slight and excusable issues can develop into worse things. Furthermore, being a BAT includes being good at making decisions, with which other BATs agree--if one makes bad decisions, then something is wrong.

D33d wrote:

dkun wrote:

I'm coming out of the blue here and I don't know the background context, but it's just five minutes.

Different moderators have different points of views, I learned this the hard way. If one thinks you deserved to be silenced, then that's on his or her discretion. The reason for the infraction list is so that you ~do not know~ which chat OP silenced you.

Being a BAT does include making decisions, what is your point with what you just said? His actions do have logic behind it more times than not.

Like I said, it's not a big issue and I don't want to make it too big--I just wanted to flag it up. I should've mentioned this already, but Shiirn was apparently very quiet about the silence when he was asked to give reasons. I can't say any more than that. Remember that even slight and excusable issues can develop into worse things. Furthermore, being a BAT includes being good at making decisions, with which other BATs agree--if one makes bad decisions, then something is wrong.

If it's based on one person, I'm pretty sure this is more oriented towards a PM with a green member, if not peppy himself if he's willing to take up the case. Case by case infractions are debatable, but as Ephemeral says, who wants to air out dirty laundry?

It's per-standard to be quiet about a silence, as they don't need to provide anything or any cause, as they thought you did something wrong. You do understand where I'm coming from, right?

With what you said, you're effectively saying he's a bad decision maker, which is pretty insulting. But as I said above, I'm pretty sure this is the wrong place to take it up if anything.

To be specific about the case D33d, I specifically told Rena to stop posting images related to "sad stories" e.g. memes based around making you feel horrible, because the were, predictably, making several people feel horrible. As soon as I finish saying thus, you directly quoted Rena, leading it to seem like you were blatantly spitting in my (and more importantly, other people's) face(s) for it.


We've discussed things personally, as should have happened days ago.

Okay, I didn't mean for this to become as significant as it did. My reasoning behind posting in this thread was because peppy requested it and that I didn't want to pester people through PMs--I felt that throwing the question out there was the most polite way to go about it. Additionally, it pertained to an issue which occurred in public and, from what I remember, a few people expressed their concern and even questioned the action. As such, the issue was already under potential scrutiny from others, so I wanted to attempt to deal with it in public.

What I really want everybody to know is that I do not set out explicitly to tarnish a person's reputation--if that happens, then it's a byproduct of addressing something that's bothered me. I felt that the issue was worth bringing up, because it was indicative of a more general issue that had been bothering me in the first place--while I appreciate that nobody here can always keep their cool, I dislike the kneejerk punishments that have been dished out to me or others in the past. To that end, I dislike rash decisions being made in the heat of the moment; if nothing else, because it's fairly unprofessional and offensive.

Finally, I didn't want to be specific about the issue, because I only wanted to see if it was worth delving into in the first place. Furthermore, letting third parties see this sort of thing allows for it to be dealt with as objectively as possible. As Shiirn was happy to elaborate, it allowed people to comment on the validity of the complaint. I think that enough has been said on the matter--far more than I wanted.

DEEDIT: As an aside, Shiirn had gone inactive for a set period, because he had other things to deal with. That was all. Thought I might as well clarify.

I'm going to sound biased, but I agree. Some BATs may not be capable of moderating the chat based off of their map modding ability alone.

OP, you're getting flak for this but that's not your fault. Read the essay in my sig for a nice explanation in the section bulletpointed by "anonymity counters vanity"- people'll take this as a personal attack regardless of whether or not this is.

You bumped a 4 month old topic...

DADDYCOOLVIPPER wrote:

I'm going to sound biased, but I agree. Some BATs may not be capable of moderating the chat based off of their map modding ability alone.

When you become a MAT this means you are qualified to moderate beatmaps. (aka bubble and rank them)
You are then made a BAT off your moderation abilities, not your modding abilities alone.
So I would consider the above statement false.