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[Rewording] Stacking requirements in low diffs

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UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
there have been multiple instances of confusion caused by this lowdiff rule:

rule wrote:

If stacks are used, Stack Leniency must be set high enough for 1/1 hit objects to stack. Directly overlapping hit objects cause reading problems for new players.
this rule puts too much emphasis on the stack leniency setting, and not on whether there are perfect 1/1 stacks, which has lead to people suggesting to change the stack leniency setting even though it doesn't change anything in the difficulty. it also doesn't take into account how sliders have different stacking properties since it doesn't explicitly require all 1/1 stacks to stack. it needs a rewrite.

so uh here's a quick rewrite to iterate from:

better rule wrote:

All stacked 1/1 hit objects must not perfectly overlap. Perfectly overlapping hit objects cause reading problems for new players.
this would apply to easy, normal, and hard (with hard being 1/2 hit objects obs)
defiance
503 posts
Joined July 2015
defiance
:thumbs_up:
Kibbleru
osu! Alumni
5,846 posts
Joined August 2013
Kibbleru

quanhitter39 wrote:

:thumbs_up:


add something along the lines of;

This can be done manually, or with automatic stacking
Last edited by Kibbleru , edited 1 time in total.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
That would allow perfectly stacking 1/2 as long as 1/1 doesnt perfectly overlap by custom stacking XDDDD

Objects separated by an 1/1 interval or shorter timings must not overlap perfectly.

or sth like that
Last edited by Okoayu , edited 4 times in total.
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
yes
KnightDark2001
1 post
Joined July 2018
KnightDark2001
I am new an apology for not providing any useful opinion: c
Last edited by KnightDark2001 , edited 1 time in total.
anna apple
1,256 posts
Joined March 2014
anna apple
Kind of strange to bring up, but since the difficulty scales from normal > hard like 1/1 > 1/2 perfect stacking being disallowed. Would that also make sense to comment Insane to not have 1/4 perfect stacks

or possibly push for more clear guideline on how spread diffs work because with two insanes, the harder of the two having the perfect stack 1/4 should be non issue (?)


Otherwise yeah wording for new rule seems ideal
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
hmmmm,

i'm not quite sure how much we can expect of players at that level - i personally wouldnt mind saying this about insanes as the lowest difficulty in a set though
anna apple
1,256 posts
Joined March 2014
anna apple
I'm satisfied with that actually
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
Objects 1 beat apart or less must not overlap perfectly.
Objects 1/2 of a beat apart or less must not overlap perfectly.

"separated by 1/x interval or shorter timing" feels a little too complex for this. 1/1 1/2 etc is implied to be a time interval by the rest of the rc already

if requiring 1/4 stacks on certain insane diffs but not others, being a guideline may be more practical than a rule. could have it say "lowest diffs should autostack but higher ones dont need to" in the non-bold text
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
that is more simple yea

would put 1/4 shouldnt stack perfectly in insane that is lowest diff
Kibbleru
osu! Alumni
5,846 posts
Joined August 2013
Kibbleru
But then what if it was a double bpm or half bpm map?

if it's 80 bpm mapped as 160 would we still disallow 1/1 to be perfectly stacked? lol
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki

Kibbleru wrote:

But then what if it was a double bpm or half bpm map?

if it's 80 bpm mapped as 160 would we still disallow 1/1 to be perfectly stacked? lol
I think rules and guidelines regarding timing refer to approximately 180 bpm
Mir
osu! Alumni
2,152 posts
Joined July 2016
Mir
how does this affect sliderend stacking?

maybe reword to "active hitobjects must not perfectly overlap" or something if we think sliderend stacking is fine, otherwise leave as is i guess
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
@kibb baka
@mir sliderend stacks apply to the rule as well as they're just as confusing for newer players

and yeah pishi's wordchange is good and making 1/4 perfectstacks in lowestdiff insanes unrankable sounds good too
(tho lowestdiff requirements rc should prob be kept to lowestdiff requirements rc sections that we dont have yet ^^')
Andrea
Beatmap Nominator
16,650 posts
Joined August 2008
Andrea

pishifat wrote:

Objects 1 beat apart or less must not overlap perfectly.
Objects 1/2 of a beat apart or less must not overlap perfectly.
I also agree that this rule needs to be reworded because it's pretty confusing with how it's worded right now, I always get confused by it as well.

Pishifat's wording seems the most intuitive to me so far and I would use that.

Plus, I agree with the 1/4 stacking thing on Insane as well if it's the easiest difficulty, due to the new lenght rules.
Kibbleru
osu! Alumni
5,846 posts
Joined August 2013
Kibbleru

pishifat wrote:

Objects 1 beat apart or less must not overlap perfectly in gameplay.
Objects 1/2 of a beat apart or less must not overlap perfectly in gameplay.


this might be better, since some people turn off stacking in editor.
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
@kibb baka
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
this has been applied in https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/1651 and will be amended to the ranking criteria in about 5 days

if anyone has concerns about the change, now is the time to show them!
UndeadCapulet
1,100 posts
Joined April 2013
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
looking at this again, i guess there's some weird glossary stuff that might need to be addressed.
so we have all these terms:

first weird thing is that we use "overlap" before that term gets defined, which is kinda lol
secondly, glossary already uses "directly overlap" while we're using "overlap perfectly" so we should prob make those consistent (i vote for perfect over direct)
thirdly, stack's definition just talks about things in the same spot on the grid, which doesn't rly make it clear that it's referring to the arrange caused by osu's automated offsetting of placement, which is a bit weird since everything involving that definition assumes that's been made clear.
fourthly, should we have a definition of perfect overlap? it gets used a lot now..

i dk

i tried wrote:

  1. Stack: Two or more hit objects placed in the same spot on the grid, causing an automated offsetting of placement.
  2. Overlap: Hit objects touching each other where they do not stack.
  3. Perfect overlap: Hit objects placed in the same spot on the grid that do not stack.
  4. Stack leniency: A setting used to determine if hit objects stack or perfectly overlap each other. Increasing its value will cause hit objects to stack at longer time intervals.
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki
I agree with UC but I think the definition of perfect overlaps shouldn't only be saying that they don't stack because that's not really clear either imo
I suggest something like this:
  1. Perfect overlap: Hit objects placed in the exact same spot on the grid that are not stacked due to stack leniency, which causes the object below to be hidden under the object above.
Not sure if it fits but I think it's more understandable like this
realy0_
1,737 posts
Joined August 2016
realy0_

Serizawa Haruki wrote:

I agree with UC but I think the definition of perfect overlaps shouldn't only be saying that they don't stack because that's not really clear either imo
I suggest something like this:
  1. Perfect overlap: Hit objects placed in the exact same spot on the grid that are not stacked due to stack leniency, which causes the object below to be hidden under the object above.
Not sure if it fits but I think it's more understandable like this
imo, i would still stick with uc's definition cuz it's really confusing to read the way you wroted it
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
will update those definitions
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/1651 is now merged
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