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posted
why not just make it circle feat. singer each time the vocalist isnt in the circle lmao that way both get credit
posted

Nao Tomori wrote:

why not just make it circle feat. singer each time the vocalist isnt in the circle lmao that way both get credit
actually like... yeah. It's worked well with RD-Sounds in the last few months, this would help deal with the mess that is circles. Although you have the potential issue of stuff like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/790310 where you have a composer that's well known plus a circle plus a vocalist

For now we can use this rule as a base and improve upon it:
Guideline:
When a song is released by a circle, the circle name is preferred for the artist field. If a composer is independently well known outside of the circle, they can be used as artist. In the case of songs with vocalists, the following formats can be used: [Circle] feat. [Vocalist] or [Composer] feat. [Vocalist].
posted
the main issue with the current circle rule is that in so many cases vocalists and/or composers are not part of the circle, I looked at 5 random qualified/bubbled touhou maps and all of them would have to use vocalist only as their artist with the current rule, so you end up just ignoring circle, composer, etc.
basically ends up being like the old rule, but forcing vocalist as artist instead of making it an option in a lot of cases

for reference:
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/798509/discussion/-/generalAll#/375287
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/782106/discussion/-/generalAll#/375290
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/790310/discussion/-/generalAll#/374527
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/751553/discussion/-/generalAll#/375244
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/785837/discussion/-/generalAll#/375204
posted
Hi,

What about covers? For example DECO*27 feat. Yuikonnu or namirin*. Should we use circle name feat. singer in the artist field or just solely artist that does the cover? Sorry if I have missed the point somewhere.
posted
for the fictional character thing, CV is almost exclusively used to describe voice actors. Including actors with this doesnt make sense, best to just list the actor rather than the character
posted
ah i misread what the current circle rule actually did, my b
yeah i agree w/ [circle] feat [singer] being the best solution
posted
That still seems weird when it involves a few or individual singers who make albums with multiple composers for their albums, using just the vocalist alone in the artist field is better tbh

Examples I can think of are most known utaites and doujin vocalists. While at it, many people like to take songs off youtube and all where stuff like this is uploaded, are you going to apply this to them as well? You cannot deny many of them have their albums and also sell things under a circle name to represent their booth.
posted

Noffy wrote:

Delete Circles

For songs belonging to doujin circles, the circle name must be used over the vocalist or composer, unless these contributors are not part of the circle. In these cases the priority falls on vocalist followed by composer for instrumental songs.
Instead of making things simpler, this has made the artist field more complex due to the research required to determine whether those who made a song are actually proper members of the circle or just guests for that one release.

there's 1 or 2 things we could do

1.) delete circle rule entirely (leaving it up choice based off what is more sensible to the specific song or consistent with previous maps.. like it was before)
2.) make any release under a circle be credited to a circle regardless of whether the song's creators are proper members of the circle.
Fuck that rule imo. Leaving it up to choice is meh, leaving it up to "most common way" to do it is meh too because it increases resarch effort

sayhing vocalist > composer unless the circle is known by its own name a lot (ex. iojjj - Torikago vs Esper Gakuen - Torikago: no one in hell will know either of those unless they played my first rnaked map but iojjj is more well known in this community because i have two maps using her instead of the Circle) vs lets say ALiCE'S EMOTiON or C-CLAYS or whatever who are well known on their own

if we go for searchability i think reverting is best so this was a long yeah fuck i actually agree

Noffy wrote:


This is weird

If a song or artist are referred to in multiple ways on official sources provided by the artist, the mapper is free to choose any of the romanisations. The only exception to this is if the song already has a mapset in the Ranked Section, in which case the corresponding guideline applies to it.
I don't think this was supposed to say romanisations, just apply to metadata in general, oops...
honestly, is this really needed? it's not like we say you must use a specific kind of source to reference for metadata to begin with.
Nah, just romanisations we did that intentionally. This doesn't add much for the actual doing, but it clarifies the most common question you get when checking metadata because it says the first officially listed thing you find is usable instead of leaving this up in the air

if you still think this doesnt have its place explain further

Noffy wrote:

There's a loophole here
Any form of CV: such as CV,, Cv, Cv. and the likes are to be written as CV: only. If only the character is credited in any sources, the CV: marker has to be added to satisfy traceability to existing people. If such a marker is added to an artist, they must be added following the fictional character the character voice actor represents.
This accidentally lead to a loophole that Character (Voice Actor) does not require CV: to be added.
Should probably fix that to just be Character (CV: Voice Actor) in all cases.

suggestion:

Whenever a fictional character or characters are credited as the singer of a song, the artist field is to be formatted in a Character (CV: Voice Actor) format, where "Character" would be the character name and "Voice Actor" the name of the actual person behind them.
yeah, oops wow let's go with that suggestion
ppl totally got the intent behind it and still fiddled around? whew it's almost like you need to spell everything out and then nobody gets it anymore

Noffy wrote:

Source is a headache

You must use the Source field if the song comes from, is remixed from or specifically fan-made for a video game, movie, or series. Website names are not an acceptable Artist nor Source.
When the song has appeared in multiple medias, even after its initial release, it may use the source that the mapset is themed around (Backgrounds, Storyboards, Videos, etc.) as long as the song itself appeared in it.
If a series applicable to be used as a source is clustered into multiple sub-series, the most precise label should be prioritised.
we somehow ended up splitting source into 1 rule and 2 guidelines that half do the same thing as the old rule and half make it more of a headache, because sometimes it's really hard to determine if a song came from the source or if it was put in there later (making the source only usable if the map is explicitly "themed" around it)

suggestion
delete these and revert to the old rule, thanks
This was never intended as such, at least I meant it as "as long as it's used in X it's fine" as long as it's obvious that whoever used it had to actually license it

Noffy wrote:

This needs revision

Use the metadata of a song as is without adding any additional markers, such as Full Version and the likes. If your track is a mashup or something among those lines, use whatever the artist supplies while paying respect to proper English syntax rules.
It directly contradicts the TV Size rule demanding you add TV Size

It also directly contradicts
If the creator of the mapset has done major edits to the .mp3, they are free to name it appropriately to signal that this song is a special version. In this case the original songs must still be clearly indicated in order for players to be able to search for the original songs.
which says you CAN add stuff to it, as long as you edit it enough.

suggestion to fix this
Change the rule "Use the metadata of a song as is..." to
Use the metadata of a song as is without modification, unless the modification is specified or allowed by other rules in the Ranking Criteria
Depends on the order you read it in, honestly - always specifying that TV Sizes are exempt seemed like so much mroe text because i didnt know how many rules will end up ignoring this lul

Noffy wrote:

Robots
celerih has pointed out that
The artists of a song must be traceable to existing people. As such, programs like Vocaloids or fictional characters cannot be used as the sole artist of any given song.
does not account for songs that may be entirely composed by robots/ai. I think it would be sensible to allow crediting of the robots/ai in such cases, but I personally can not figure out a good wording to account for that.
Any ideas?
the one circle of people or person making the AI that made the music created the music, easy


Noffy wrote:

Delete this
Special characters that have both a full-width and half-width equivalent must retain their original printing forms if they are used in the unicode artist fields, so that searching while copying and pasting the original song title is always possible. This does not apply to additional information that is printed in half-width to begin with because searching for these will be ambiguous no matter what.
a.) the rule that the metadata shouldn't be modified unless it is done to follow the rules would already cover this
b.) the rules in metadata about standardizing cv tags, tv size, vs, etc, etc, etc, already make copy paste searching more difficult. So it doesn't really help in that aspect.
Suggestion: reword it into the requirement to tag as many similar or different ways to write your shit as possible if you find double width shit
posted
The intro post has been updated with a link to a github draft! (thanks Oko)

It may not fully reflect discussion here yet, but that's because we should preferably have more discussion first.

Due to the large number of changes, the draft displays the entire metadata sections as it will be in the RC, (except for the angry red triangles)

Let's work this out together :)
posted
I still don't understand why (TV Size) must replace an existing marker in a song it kinda contradicts the entirety of the rules. You are practically saying well we want to follow the metadata of a song from what the artist uses, yet you are changing something the artist picked because it's inconsistent with what other artist do.

Tldr
Tv size rule is dumb and is inconsistent with the entire reason for these rules.
posted
The whole point of the prefered artist order and TV Size marker is to aim for a more standardized approach and it was one of the solutions I came up with. Something that would be fair. Other options for the artist order were to use First Name Last Name, or reverse for everything. Or go back to the Eastern Artists must use Family Given thingy we had in the past.

Standardized metadata is being adapted to make it easier to apply metadata. Take a look at wikipedia. They always list singers in a First Name, Last Name basis, regardless of country of origin. Other database / fansites will always have their own preference as well. So instead of having to look for obscure website reference of what specific TV Size or Artist order preference, we attempted to build our own rules to make metadata more streamlined and simple with a standardized process.

I'll say one thing. It's a hell of a lot easier to google search the Japanese letters of a singer and look at the results. http://puu.sh/AKn1N.jpg for example, and just simply reverse the order, rather than have to dig deep into a ton of different websites and maybe find a preferred romanization order. This is the whole point of standardized metadata.

"Delete Circles"
Circle feat. singer/composer definitely seems like the best standardization method at the moment. I'm down for this.

"This is weird"
@Oko. This could also apply if some unicode uses different characters or even capitalization options. It should definitely say metadata in general. Bombs away for example does have a release as Bombs Away on the back of an official CD cover so the user could choose either of these to use in the unicode field.

"There's a loophole here"
As discussed, yes this needs to be added.

"Source is a headache"
We could probably remove the whole theming part and just let the mapper choose any official source. But I'd still like to see a themed map use that specific source rather than something else. Say you have one themed around Hatsune Miku's Sega games but then use a SVDX source. Right, it doesn't really make sense.
Let's say we revert back to the old way. Do we want to enforce the most precise source or stick with the optional franchise part as well? We should probably make it clear this time around.

"This needs revision"
Yes.

"Robots"
"Unless the creator or singer is impossible to find" added on to the end I guess.

"Delete this"
The original idea of it meant for the base title, artist, and source fields and not for additional info as they can be adjusted for standardization or converted in either fashion.

"Regarding half-width & full-width usages of characters in the Unicode & source fields:
(Brought up to me by S o h)
Special characters should retain their original full-width/half-width characters in the Unicode fields. An exception to this is when it used for additional complimentary info like the CV section or mix descriptors. Improper usages can result in errors while searching. https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/10623085
Example using "カラフル。(Extended edit)"
The period cannot be substituted for its counterpart. "カラフル.(Extended edit)" is not acceptable.
The parenthesis may be either half or full-width. "カラフル。(Extended edit)" is acceptable.

Original width usages should still be prioritized in the unicode field when possible. "
My original post. Let's aim for this instead. Standardization edits like vs. and whitespaces should also be included in this as exempt.

I believe that covers what you have there. I need to read the updated draft when I have more time, so if something was already applied or a better method was used, then awesome.
posted
But tv size markers are official and aren't a preference set by specific websites and what not. Making it so we have to change every song with a marker picked from who ever released it just so it's standard aming maps is like forcing all maps to be capitalized in the same way, since then it's standard among all maps.
posted
just another small addition:
since CV: and vs. are already being standardized, I guess feat./ft./featuring/... should also be standardized to follow the same thing (probably feat.) for all of those?

I'd personally still prefer to just use official sources for all of these things, but that doesn't seem to be an option, so at least standardization should be applied more consistently
posted
note to self: the trailing whitespace thign is about the romanised fields mostly, if the feat. is followed by full width characters it doesn't really matter because languages like japanese don't really do spaces anyways.
posted
After looking at this DQ I noticed the "Various Artists" rule is very vague especially for anime songs.

Since we already have a rule for doujin circles, it would be good to include that in the cases where the artists are five or more but are obviously related for being part of the same cast those should be credited as "show cast" or any variation to it, in the example above it would be "Toji no Miko Cast - "

salu2
posted
What about the casts that have an internal band name? Like for "Zettai Tokken Shuchou Shimasu!" there are just 5 singers ( Airi Totoki, Akane Hino, Aiko Takamori, Syoko Hoshi, and Yuko Hori , omitting the CV's), and thus could use Various Artists, But the group of these singers is "Zekkenzu!", Under that case, should one put just "Zekkenzu!" at Artists? All the singers with their CV's? or Various Artists?
posted

Vulkin wrote:

What about the casts that have an internal band name? Like for "Zettai Tokken Shuchou Shimasu!" there are just 5 singers ( Airi Totoki, Akane Hino, Aiko Takamori, Syoko Hoshi, and Yuko Hori , omitting the CV's), and thus could use Various Artists, But the group of these singers is "Zekkenzu!", Under that case, should one put just "Zekkenzu!" at Artists? All the singers with their CV's? or Various Artists?
That's a nice one, Idol Units/Broadcast Units are a common thing in the voice acting scene nowadays. I'd go for "Unit Name - Song Name" and adding CVs and characters' names in the tags.
posted
Wouldn't it make sense to add a rule about (Short Version) for visual novel/eroge openings to be consistent with the TV Size rule?
I'm pretty sure it has been brought up before but the thread seems dead so yeah
posted
OK GUYS

FIXED, HERE'S THE CURRENT STATE OF MATTERS:
https://gist.github.com/Okorin/15b12769091f4f6750625a5572245ea8

PLEASE LEAVE LIKES, COMMENTS AND SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL ON THE DOCUMENT, WE WILL ADDRESS THE REMAINING COMMENTS IN TWO WEEKS

IT'S A COMPLETE REWRITE, THIS IS THE WHOLE METADATA SECTION AFTER ALL IS SAID AND DONE, IF YOURE MISSING ANYTHING, PLEASE REFER TO THE CURRENT WORDING ON THE RANKING CRITERIA
posted
Official Sources must be used as references for metadata unless none are available, in which case use what is most common and recognizable.
#subjective
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