Stop saying "osu! is a rhythm game, therefore..."

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Vuelo Eluko
it's somewhere inbetween cookie clicker and dark souls
but really, might just be the new-age mapping but i feel the music is very disconnected from the objects on the screen in most newer maps. There are exceptions, but they are far and few inbetween and are mostly technical maps. pp kids nowadays just consider good maps over mapped and/or unreadable and it makes me sad and that has led to an even further trend towards osu! being regarded as more of a clicking game than a rhythm game. the age of skystar and fanzhen maps is over, though. So is the age of feeling the music in the notes. Can only get that experience by playing older maps now.

tl;dr, whether or not it's a rhythm game or a circle clicking game depends chiefly on the map. https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=538404&m=0, https://osu.ppy.sh/s/155288, and for a less technical example, https://osu.ppy.sh/s/58291 are all good examples of maps that makes it feel like a rhythm game. choco cookie butter cookie whatever is a good example of the opposite.

It's easy to tell when a mapper is trying to impart you with the circles he saw in his head while listening to a song and when a mapper is trying to impart you with PP. Turns out there's a strong correlation between the former and good maps.

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Mio Winter wrote:

"osu! is a game.
That’s all there is buddy
Actually I've had some people regard osu! as more of a 'challenge' than a 'game', due to a lack of some key elements that most games have, but they have definitions of what games are as programmers and game developers and see the things osu! lacks compared to most games as disqualifying it. It's a subjective thing.
Yolshka
They only say that because they themselves don't want to be considered a pp farming pleb.
Doesn't have any actual meaning behind it, it's mostly elitist circle jerking shit.

The guy above me is a perfect example, he literally linked two maps wich have absolutely nothing to do with accuracy, but still considered technical.
The difficulty comes from the hard to read patterns and angles, both of which only pressure your aiming and reading.
And as far as rhythm goes, I don't see how accelerating the sliders and intentionally putting patterns in a non-intuitive way does a better job.
Although it is better then 1/2 spam which by chance happen to highly spaced.

Sure from a mappers perspective spacing should be affected by loud and quiet sounds and other bullcrap, but let's get real.

Accuracy can be measured by how accurately can you perfrom on high OD, slow streams.
Now It is true, that if you have very good accuracy, you probably also have decent finger control, because that is required to accurately play slow maps.
Finger independence is a goal for everyone serious about accuracy.
If you have that, you'll probably perform much better on technical maps like the ones linked, so in that sense, they do have something in common, albeit they might not be the perfect example.

Accurate streamjumps are basically the pinnacle of finger control.

I belive a lot of the things we say belong to the accuracy ability, should be under reading, because accuracy is just clicking to the rythm, not taking into account cancer AR or fucked up sliders.
If we do that, then we're only left with doubles, triples, quads, and streams.
But one thing for sure is that if you've never took your time on 110 BPM OD8 streams, then if you do it opens up a whole new side of the game.

Also i belive it's only fair if we measure accuracy by looking at how far away in time did you click from the absolute perfect.
Vuelo Eluko

Yolshka wrote:

They only say that because they themselves don't want to be considered a pp farming pleb.
Doesn't have any actual meaning behind it, it's mostly elitist circle jerking shit.

The guy above me is a perfect example, he literally linked two maps wich have absolutely nothing to do with accuracy, but still considered technical.
The difficulty comes from the hard to read patterns and angles, both of which only pressure your aiming and reading.
And as far as rhythm goes, I don't see how accelerating the sliders and intentionally putting patterns in a non-intuitive way does a better job.
Although it is better then 1/2 spam which by chance happen to highly spaced.

Accuracy can be measured by how accurately can you perfrom on high OD, slow streams.
Now It is true, that if you have very good accuracy, you probably also have decent finger control, because that is required to accurately play slow maps.
Finger independence is a goal for everyone serious about accuracy.
If you have that, you'll probably perform much better on technical maps like the ones linked, so in that sense, they do have something in common, albeit they might not be the perfect example.

Accurate streamjumps are basically the pinnacle of finger control.

I belive a lot of the things we say belong to the accuracy ability, should be under reading, because accuracy is just clicking to the rythm, not taking into account cancer AR or fucked up sliders. If we do that, then we're only left with doubles, triples, quads, and streams.
woah now, im only talking about the feeling i get when i play a map, nothing about pp farming or 'circle jerking elitism'. It's a palpable feeling of a map and song seemingly belonging together. That's all. I don't get that feeling from most newer maps, I more often just feel like they threw some circles on the screen in repetitive pp-algorithm abusing patterns to get plays while some random music is playing in the background. The difficulty spikes problem also adds to that feeling of disconnect. It's usually not at some big crescendo or tipping point in a song, it's at a point where it's convenient for the mapper to raise the star rating an entire 1-2 vs the rest of the map.

I haven't even played this game online in like 2 years so PP isn't a factor for me. I only care about the experience of playing the maps, and things have gotten quite uninspired and stale in that regard.
Yolshka
rince it was not my intention to insult you.
Actually it was, but only to use you as a person i could apply my thoughts on,because I'm clearly speaking in stereotypes, and to give my little text some weight.
But i don't hate you or anything I mean i don't even know you. I apologize.

And I do think that pp farm maps are pretty much as low as it gets, and there is a serious issue at hand, but we can go into an endless debate about that.

The OP clearly feels inferior because a couple people engage in the holy mission to purify their precious little rhythm game from the low acc heretics and aim-witches,becoming a true hero in process, and therefore the op pressured into creating this thread, with questionable intentions.


And baru is a god regardless of rhythm, it's an objective fact.
J_8579
osu! is a rhythm game, therefore osu! is a rhythm game.
autoteleology
I have the weirdest sense of deja vu. It's like I talked about this before and saw it coming from a mile away.

osu! is a rhythm game, therefore the ranking system should be primarily based upon rhythm skills. Unfortunately those skills are difficult to define so instead we have the numbers in a blender system we have now that over-rewards aim because it is easy to define. Aim should be a secondary function to rhythm, and yet we have a system that by FAR makes it the primary function. freedomdiver has proven that there are core skills that are not necessary to master to be a top ranked player, and touchscreen will be forever OP until you realize this.
Celine
How pp is calculated is broken.
And it's not easy to fix.
End of story
Endie-
I believe the game itself should not be considered a rhythm game at the same level as other rhythm based games out there.
The reason is how the game itself is played. You've only got two inputs to reflect the sense of a beat in a song. osu! relies heavily on pointing and clicking on circles, and you're only able to click at one circle at the time! This doesn't reflect songs well at all. Therefore, in my opinion, osu! is missing a fundamental rhythmic sense.
The PP system isn't the only reason we are seeing bland ctrl+c, ctr+v maps. The way the game is played makes these types of maps favorable because they are comfortable to play, and easy to make.
Luckily not all maps are like this.
I'm still astonished at how mappers are able to reflect a song. The maps jesusfan linked to are good examples of when osu! truly feels like a rhythm game, and is what keeps me playing.
B1rd

Mio Winter wrote:

"osu! is a rhythm game, therefore the PP system should value accuracy more."

"osu! is a rhythm game, therefore if you don't have acc, you're a bad player."

"osu! is a rhythm game, therefore Barusamikosu is god, therefore god exists, therefore checkmate atheists!" (Please, this is joke... not trying to spark debate about politics or religion!)

While I may or may not be the worst accuracy player in the history of osu! and I should be ashamed of myself forever, I do in fact think accuracy is a pretty cool skill. I'd love to be a better accuracy player than I am. What I'm saying is that I appreciate accuracy as a skill, and think players like Epiphany are really cool because they are really good at acc. But I still think "osu! is a rhythm game, therefore accuracy should be weighted more in the PP system" is a bad argument. Accuracy is important, but not because osu! is a rhythm game. Accuracy is important rather because it is important for making osu! into a fun game people can enjoy.

The problem is that the argument circular. Ask someone "what is a rhythm game?" and they'll say something like "a game where accuracy is important". So therefore when they say "osu! is a rhythm game, therefore accuracy is important" you can just substitute the word "rhythm game" with its meaning and the sentence is analytically equivalent to "osu! is a game where accuracy is important, therefore accuracy should be important". It's just saying that something should be X because it is X.

If you're still unsure whether it's a good argument or not, consider applying the same argument in other contexts. Here, the form of the argument is "something is X, therefore it should be X". Ok, so if we try to apply this argument to the fact that I'm hungry, we get "I'm hungry, therefore I should be hungry." Either the argument is good, and we can use it both the osu! context and the hunger context, or the argument is bad and we can't use it in any context.

PS. No, I don't have anything better to do than to provide the community with unnecessary walls-of-text on obscure topics that no one cares about. Get a life? Why?
You have my signature. Indeed it's stupid. It's putting the cart before the horse; it is not defined by its label, its label is defined by it. The term "rhythm game" is just a description that helps identify a game of a broad genre by similarities, it's primary function is to categorise games, not define their gameplay. I could easily identify all "rhythm games" as "finger stamina games" and argue that that label justified more in-game focus on stamina. You can see how only stupid people use that argument.
Kondou-Shinichi
tl;dr please, i dont understand
Sayorie
So this thread is more about semantics than gameplay, huh?

I do agree that this game rewards consistency (thus lesser shitmisses) more than raw accuracy, which is something I don't like, but I reckon it's definitely something players should strive to improve.

Also, 'rhythm game' is just an encompassing genre, it doesn't necessarily define osu! nor largely influence how the gameplay works.
autoteleology
Is osu! a rhythm game, or is it just a music game?

...

Forget the semantics for a moment, actually. Here's the real question:

Do you want to stay in the world where the community's values lead to Hai Tai being the top ranked play in the game, or do you want something different?

Is this really the best we can do?
repr1se

Mio Winter wrote:

While I may or may not be the worst accuracy player in the history of osu! and I should be ashamed of myself forever, I do in fact think accuracy is a pretty cool skill. I'd love to be a better accuracy player than I am. What I'm saying is that I appreciate accuracy as a skill, and think players like Epiphany are really cool because they are really good at acc. But I still think "osu! is a rhythm game, therefore accuracy should be weighted more in the PP system" is a bad argument. Accuracy is important, but not because osu! is a rhythm game. Accuracy is important rather because it is important for making osu! into a fun game people can enjoy.
agree. acc is good, but aim is a skill too. if pp was based on only acc then why the fuck would anyone play std, just go to taiko/mania
zeplic

Emersyne wrote:

Is osu! a rhythm game, or is it just a music game?

...
winber1
local unemployed gamer expresses dissatisfaction with a dead meme that he was unable to cultivate
N0thingSpecial

Emersyne wrote:

Do you want to stay in the world where the community's values lead to Hai Tai being the top ranked play in the game, or do you want something different?

Is this really the best we can do?
You gotta admit the score is one spicy meme

So the real question is can we do even worst?
M3ATL0V3R
I don't see how non "rhythm" elements are a bad thing. Many people are attracted to this game because of the aim elements of the game e.g. fps/moba players. Its also kind of weird how people separate "rhythm" and "aim" in this game but in reality you have to aim to a rhythm by moving your cursor. You wouldn't call drumming an aim based instrument but its sort of similar where the surface of the drum is the hit circle and you aim the stick to hit the drum at the right time. The difference in osu is the actuation is not caused by the aiming hand (for most play styles) which can make game play feel disjointed at times.

The problem is simple rhythms have an advantage for getting pp because pp is calculated based on note spacing, density, size and hit window. Note complexity does not factor into the calculation. However pp is only one way people are ranked, many non aim based maps have easier leader boards which objectively reward rhythm focused players. It would be good to have a better pp algorithm that mathematically incorporates rhythm complexity e.g. [1] but since leader boards for songs exist I don't feel like its a large issue. Including a mathematical model for music complexity might change the game for the worse.

TLDR: quit standard, play mania

[1] http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf
Topic Starter
Mio Winter

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

You wouldn't call drumming an aim based instrument but its sort of similar where the surface of the drum is the hit circle and you aim the stick to hit the drum at the right time.
Tbh, everything is a circle clicking game. We are circles arranged in such a way as to produce thoughts and feelings. But don't let those things fool you, it's all just circles being clicked to a particular beat.

brb have to tell Stephen Hawking
autoteleology

N0thingSpecial wrote:

You gotta admit the score is one spicy meme
I think it does a great job showcasing how utterly irrelevant the performance points system is. It's a giant middle finger to the community and the developers and it's hilarious. I'm hoping, however naively, that it creates enough of a furor that the ranking system is changed for the better.

The whole reason I have such a bug up my ass about this in the first place is because I feel like my biggest strength is the least valuable skill in the game. It is incredibly frustrating seeing someone achieve the highest ranked play in the game by a huge margin with a play that is completely devoid of the one thing I put the most effort into. Instead of feeling like I should be proud of my accuracy, I just feel like I am bottlenecked by my aim. My skill is completely irrelevant without the ability to consistently hold a full combo.

winber1 wrote:

local unemployed gamer expresses dissatisfaction with a dead meme that he was unable to cultivate
You have, in all your time spent on the forums, contributed nothing of value, at least to me, aside from the incidental realization that roleplaying as a retard makes you completely unaccountable for anything you say or do.

When you can have that kind of power, why create when you can destroy, right? It must be so much easier. Thinking is really difficult sometimes.

But then again, when your time here is over some day, what will you have to look back on, aside from all the times you irritated people for a cheap laugh? I bet that makes for some really great memories. I hope you enjoy them as well as you earned them.
pandaBee
If you ignore pp this game can be whatever you want it to be.
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