How pp is calculated is broken.
And it's not easy to fix.
End of story
And it's not easy to fix.
End of story
You have my signature. Indeed it's stupid. It's putting the cart before the horse; it is not defined by its label, its label is defined by it. The term "rhythm game" is just a description that helps identify a game of a broad genre by similarities, it's primary function is to categorise games, not define their gameplay. I could easily identify all "rhythm games" as "finger stamina games" and argue that that label justified more in-game focus on stamina. You can see how only stupid people use that argument.Mio Winter wrote:
"osu! is a rhythm game, therefore the PP system should value accuracy more."
"osu! is a rhythm game, therefore if you don't have acc, you're a bad player."
"osu! is a rhythm game, therefore Barusamikosu is god, therefore god exists, therefore checkmate atheists!" (Please, this is joke... not trying to spark debate about politics or religion!)
While I may or may not be the worst accuracy player in the history of osu! and I should be ashamed of myself forever, I do in fact think accuracy is a pretty cool skill. I'd love to be a better accuracy player than I am. What I'm saying is that I appreciate accuracy as a skill, and think players like Epiphany are really cool because they are really good at acc. But I still think "osu! is a rhythm game, therefore accuracy should be weighted more in the PP system" is a bad argument. Accuracy is important, but not because osu! is a rhythm game. Accuracy is important rather because it is important for making osu! into a fun game people can enjoy.
The problem is that the argument circular. Ask someone "what is a rhythm game?" and they'll say something like "a game where accuracy is important". So therefore when they say "osu! is a rhythm game, therefore accuracy is important" you can just substitute the word "rhythm game" with its meaning and the sentence is analytically equivalent to "osu! is a game where accuracy is important, therefore accuracy should be important". It's just saying that something should be X because it is X.
If you're still unsure whether it's a good argument or not, consider applying the same argument in other contexts. Here, the form of the argument is "something is X, therefore it should be X". Ok, so if we try to apply this argument to the fact that I'm hungry, we get "I'm hungry, therefore I should be hungry." Either the argument is good, and we can use it both the osu! context and the hunger context, or the argument is bad and we can't use it in any context.
PS. No, I don't have anything better to do than to provide the community with unnecessary walls-of-text on obscure topics that no one cares about. Get a life? Why?
agree. acc is good, but aim is a skill too. if pp was based on only acc then why the fuck would anyone play std, just go to taiko/maniaMio Winter wrote:
While I may or may not be the worst accuracy player in the history of osu! and I should be ashamed of myself forever, I do in fact think accuracy is a pretty cool skill. I'd love to be a better accuracy player than I am. What I'm saying is that I appreciate accuracy as a skill, and think players like Epiphany are really cool because they are really good at acc. But I still think "osu! is a rhythm game, therefore accuracy should be weighted more in the PP system" is a bad argument. Accuracy is important, but not because osu! is a rhythm game. Accuracy is important rather because it is important for making osu! into a fun game people can enjoy.
Emersyne wrote:
Is osu! a rhythm game, or is it just a music game?
...
You gotta admit the score is one spicy memeEmersyne wrote:
Do you want to stay in the world where the community's values lead to Hai Tai being the top ranked play in the game, or do you want something different?
Is this really the best we can do?
Tbh, everything is a circle clicking game. We are circles arranged in such a way as to produce thoughts and feelings. But don't let those things fool you, it's all just circles being clicked to a particular beat.M3ATL0V3R wrote:
You wouldn't call drumming an aim based instrument but its sort of similar where the surface of the drum is the hit circle and you aim the stick to hit the drum at the right time.
I think it does a great job showcasing how utterly irrelevant the performance points system is. It's a giant middle finger to the community and the developers and it's hilarious. I'm hoping, however naively, that it creates enough of a furor that the ranking system is changed for the better.N0thingSpecial wrote:
You gotta admit the score is one spicy meme
You have, in all your time spent on the forums, contributed nothing of value, at least to me, aside from the incidental realization that roleplaying as a retard makes you completely unaccountable for anything you say or do.winber1 wrote:
local unemployed gamer expresses dissatisfaction with a dead meme that he was unable to cultivate
You don't get to ignore pp when you participate in the community. That number, whether you like it not, defines who you are as a player and a person to anyone who doesn't know you on this forum. Are you going to sit here, as a G&R poster, and tell me that you have never judged the content of someone's post on this subforum by their rank? Don't make me laugh!pandaBee wrote:
If you ignore pp this game can be whatever you want it to be.
then it's the fault of the person, not the systemEmersyne wrote:
You don't get to ignore pp when you participate in the community. That number, whether you like it not, defines who you are as a player and a person to anyone who doesn't know you on this forum. Are you going to sit here, as a G&R poster, and tell me that you have never judged the content of someone's post on this subforum by their rank?
Not with that attitudeEmersyne wrote:
You don't get to ignore pp when you participate in the community.
Only people with low self esteem worry about being judged by people they don't know, based on a number.Emersyne wrote:
You don't get to ignore pp when you participate in the community. That number, whether you like it not, defines who you are as a player and a person to anyone who doesn't know you on this forum. Are you going to sit here, as a G&R poster, and tell me that you have never judged the content of someone's post on this subforum by their rank? Don't make me laugh!
^ Thisrepr1se wrote:
then it's the fault of the person, not the system
i do this as well but instead of pp i check their top playsMio Winter wrote:
I use PP as an indicator of skill of other osu!players all the time. If a player on the forums asks "why can't I stream above 1 bpm?" I take a quick look at their profile before I reply. If it says they are 6k PP or something, then I respond very differently than if it says 1k PP. If it says 6k PP, I think "huh, that's weird that they can't stream above 1 bpm even with that level of skill; maybe there's something wrong with their hand?" whereas I would just tell the 1k PP person to stream more.
But I also see a stronger form of the PP-judgment, and that's how low-PP players are generally treated with much less respect on the forums than higher-PP players. Making PP a better indicator of skill won't really solve this problem, it will just guide the disrespect more reliably towards players who are bad at playing. If anything, making PP a better indicator of skill will worsen the problem.again, that's a problem with the person, not the system. personally i couldn't care what someone's rank is (provided they're looking for help and not just shitposting) but i know that a lot of people that frequent this forum exist just to shit talk because their e-penis is bigger
How do you define "shitposting"?repr1se wrote:
personally i couldn't care what someone's rank is (provided they're looking for help and not just shitposting)
"what's the secret to being like [insert player here]?"Mio Winter wrote:
How do you define "shitposting"?
At least 1, 2, 3, 5, 9 (especially 5) all seem like legitimate questions that have some probability of receiving good answers when asked in the forums, so it's rational to post the questions. Why do you think people shouldn't post these questions?repr1se wrote:
(1) "what's the secret to being like [insert player here]?"Mio Winter wrote:
How do you define "shitposting"?
(2) "what is cookiezi's tablet area?"
(3) "i started playing this game 4 days ago and can't pass freedom dive"
(4) "2k PP you're trash player"
(5) "do i have rsi?"
(6) "filthy dt pp farmers"
(7) "i never play tv size maps and they should be worth no pp"
(8) "stop caring about your pp... but you should be gaining ranks"
(9) "how do i pass this map?"
(10) "change the pp system so what i'm good at is weighed more"
examples.
On the other hand, we would lose 90% of the board traffic.Emersyne wrote:
Maybe these questions are endlessly asked because we have failed to make the answers accessible enough.
I have been thinking for a while about writing a FAQ for the subforum, one that is more complete and better written than the ones currently available.
i respectfully disagree.Mio Winter wrote:
At least 1, 2, 3, 5, 9 (especially 5) all seem like legitimate questions that have some probability of receiving good answers when asked in the forums, so it's rational to post the questions. Why do you think people shouldn't post these questions?
(I ask because I worry that people are being attacked for "shitposting" even when their posts are fine by my standards.)
OT: there's a reason people have to refer posters to the FAQ... because no one reads the FAQEmersyne wrote:
Maybe these questions are endlessly asked because we have failed to make the answers accessible enough.
I have been thinking for a while about writing a FAQ for the subforum, one that is more complete and better written than the ones currently available.
But people asking don't already know whether you are able to answer or not. If they already knew that no one could provide them with a good answer, they wouldn't ask, so asking is a good way of finding out that no one knows the answer. Imagine a teacher, upon being asked a question by a student, replying "I don't know the answer, therefore the question is stupid and you shouldn't have asked it."repr1se wrote:
i respectfully disagree.Mio Winter wrote:
At least 1, 2, 3, 5, 9 (especially 5) all seem like legitimate questions that have some probability of receiving good answers when asked in the forums, so it's rational to post the questions. Why do you think people shouldn't post these questions?
(I ask because I worry that people are being attacked for "shitposting" even when their posts are fine by my standards.)
1) there's no secret, just practice. specific questions about practice (for example "what are good stream maps") aren't shitposts... but there's no real answer other than "keep practicing if you want to be [insert osu player here]". with the number of people asking this question, it's a shitpost
2) if someone wasn't trying to copy cookiezi or [insert osu player here] they wouldn't ask -- and none of us know.
3) no one becomes an olympian after 4 days, it's absurd to expect to pass [insert 7 star map here]
5) no one here is a doctor, if it hurts then stop. pretty common sense imo
9) get better? don't let hp drop to 0? there's no way i could possibly give an answer to a question like that. specific questions like "how do you deconstruct squares into two pairs of jumps" is a meaningful question, and one i can answer.
this misrepresents my point... there ARE good questions to which the answer isn't known, but there are questions where the answer is not known, but it's also pointless to go about "finding" such an answer -- even more so if the question had been asked previously.Mio Winter wrote:
But people asking don't already know whether you are able to answer or not. If they already knew that no one could provide them with a good answer, they wouldn't ask, so asking is a good way of finding out that no one knows the answer. Imagine a teacher, upon being asked a question by a student, replying "I don't know the answer, therefore the question is stupid and you shouldn't have asked it."
"That's already shitposting for you? LULrepr1se wrote:
"what's the secret to being like [insert player here]?"Mio Winter wrote:
How do you define "shitposting"?
"what is cookiezi's tablet area?"
"i started playing this game 4 days ago and can't pass freedom dive"
"2k PP you're trash player"
"do i have rsi?"
"filthy dt pp farmers"
"i never play tv size maps and they should be worth no pp"
"stop caring about your pp... but you should be gaining ranks"
"how do i pass this map?"
"change the pp system so what i'm good at is weighed more"
examples.
Making Asians do more stereotypical Asian things will just guide the racism more towards Asians, not because people are racistMio Winter wrote:
Making PP a better indicator of skill won't really solve this problem, it will just guide the disrespect more reliably towards players who are bad at playing. If anything, making PP a better indicator of skill will worsen the problem.
Agreed, I hate Asians too.N0thingSpecial wrote:
I am shit posting.Making Asians do more stereotypical Asian things will just guide the racism more towards Asians, not because people are racistMio Winter wrote:
Making PP a better indicator of skill won't really solve this problem, it will just guide the disrespect more reliably towards players who are bad at playing. If anything, making PP a better indicator of skill will worsen the problem.
Me too thanksB1rd wrote:
Agreed, I hate Asians too.
I guess B1rd's way of explaining it was better.chainpullz wrote:
Osu is a rhythm game (a game where a player's intended inputs are precisely determined by the rhythm of a song) therefore accuracy in regards to rhythm should be the most important factor.
Note that this argument is not at all circular and that you and your provided example arguments all suffer from extremely imprecise definitions. Note that the above argument does not as accuracy and precision are two completely unrelated things that are commonly sought in tandem with each other.
THE CATEGORIES WERE MADE FOR MAN, NOT MAN FOR THE CATEGORIES.B1rd wrote:
It's putting the cart before the horse; it is not defined by its label, its label is defined by it. The term "rhythm game" is just a description that helps identify a game of a broad genre by similarities, it's primary function is to categorise games, not define their gameplay. I could easily identify all "rhythm games" as "finger stamina games" and argue that that label justified more in-game focus on stamina. You can see how only stupid people use that argument.
I feel like the reason that nobody reads the FAQs are not because they are devoid of info, but because they are long as fuck, poorly written and boring as hell to read.repr1se wrote:
OT: there's a reason people have to refer posters to the FAQ... because no one reads the FAQ
ive given bullet points and condensed answers before.... But it wasn't enough to satisfy the op, apparently secrets were hidden from them or some bullshit.Emersyne wrote:
I feel like the reason that nobody reads the FAQs are not because they are devoid of info, but because they are long as fuck, poorly written and boring as hell to read.repr1se wrote:
OT: there's a reason people have to refer posters to the FAQ... because no one reads the FAQ
t/187364
Like, seriously. If you wanted help with something, would you want to read through all this long winded childish rambling in the hope of gaining a few nuggets of info, especially if you are not fluent in English? You could condense all the information in this mess to a document that is a tenth of the length and lose nothing of value.