I think most of us can agree that the pp system isn't perfect. A lot of people claim that it leads to the gamification of mapping, or unrealistic portrayals of player skill. I'm not entirely sure if I agree with this premise, but it has slowly dawned on me that there is a much more serious, grave issue: because score and pp are almost entirely combo-based, accuracy is 100% worthless without combo. You can be a top player with little to no accuracy whatsoever as long as you can hold a combo. In short, osu! is not a rhythm game, it is an aiming game. It might as well be a first person shooter for all that rhythm matters in the rankings.

Let me show you some examples of just how totally broken the system is at a high level.

Here we have a top 50 player who plays touchscreen. They are rank #49, with a paltry 90% accuracy. This in itself presents an extremely compelling argument to play touchscreen - sacrifice pretty much all rhythm precision to drastically increase the proficiency of your aim. What are cross screen jumps to a touchscreen player? Hai Tai all day baby! It's not like the scoring system will punish you for it, clearly. They have less hours than me, a forgettable 20K mouse scrub, and are in the top 50. Why am I even wasting my time playing the game as it was primarily designed? I strongly suggest you read their bio, as it goes more into depth on the last point.

This isn't meant to be taken as an indictment of touchscreen in any way - I think that their acheivement is incredibly cool - but it is a total indictment of how the pp system rewards you purely for aim and combo, something that is drastically easier with certain playstyles, and that concentrating on accuracy is a meaningless struggle that rewards you peanuts in terms of the amount of effort invested.

Here's an even more extreme example. Rank 240, a solid 250 hours ingame, 83% accuracy. One year was all it took to break top 250. Again, I strongly suggest you read their profile so you can get how broken this shit is, straight from the source. And again, it couldn't be any more clear: if you really want to be "good" at this game, don't buy a tablet, buy a touchscreen computer.

But hey, let's forget touchscreen for a moment. Those guys are basically cheaters anyway, this is a mouse and tablet game right? Well, I present to you: Ming3012, a highly talented player who sandbags their accuracy as much as possible for the lulz. Their average accuracy is a mind-blowing 66.66%. Their top play is 422 pp with a solid 60%. Why even bother trying to be accurate? Why be an accuracy focused player like yuriOS or Enify? Nobody is going to care and you will languish in obscurity, because to sum it up: osu! is a rhythm game where rhythm doesn't matter.

Wrong. osu! is a rhythm and aiming game. Even if you can full combo really hard maps you will get a fraction of the PP compared to if you did it at 99%. Pointing out one or two examples of players with low acc in ranks dominated by players with 98-99% accuracy doesn't prove that acc doesn't matter, it means that you need extraordinary skill in other areas to make up for shortcomings in accuracy.

If you want to complain that you can't get PP without getting a full combo, well, there are plenty of other games where you don't need a full combo to get results, however in osu! you need consistency.

B1rd wrote:

Wrong. osu! is a rhythm and aiming game. Even if you can full combo really hard maps you will get a fraction of the PP compared to if you did it at 99%. Pointing out one or two examples of players with low acc in ranks dominated by players with 98-99% accuracy doesn't prove that acc doesn't matter, it means that you need extraordinary skill in other areas to make up for shortcomings in accuracy.

If you want to complain that you can't get PP without getting a full combo, well, there are plenty of other games where you don't need a full combo to get results, however in osu! you need consistency.

Sure, at your level. The accuracy system isn't great at the low level but completely stops being balanced at the top level. The thing is, with much harder maps, you can easily get 70-80% of the points with absolute bare minimum accuracy. Just check Tillerino with any of Ming's players. And with touchscreen, that premise is basically irrelevant because aiming is so much easier you can feasibly complete maps that have a base reward in the 1000+ range. At that point, who even cares if you only get half?

Also, if you think "well it might be broken but if you don't like it, go play another game" is a valid point, you are unworthy of being part of the discussion, full stop.

Play Taiko and mania.

Accuracy still contributes a fair bit of pp, especially when approaching SS. There's a difference of a whopping 247 pp between ming's top play and the top HDHR score on that map. And even on lower level it matters, just look at me, a player not far from 4k pp that has an amount of 5* FCs you can count on 2 hands and a considerable amount of chokes that are still worth quite some pp due to accuracy.

Yes, it is an aimgame but accuracy is important and being good at hand synchronisation also makes it easier to aim.

Endaris wrote:

Play Taiko and mania.

Accuracy still contributes a fair bit of pp, especially when approaching SS. There's a difference of a whopping 247 pp between ming's top play and the top HDHR score on that map.

You mean, there's a fair difference between "someone who played the map almost perfectly, and someone who sandbagged the map to the point where it is nearly impossible to get worse accuracy with a full combo"? I would certainly hope so! Even then it's only a 30% loss of points to get the absolute bare minimum accuracy. For maps at my level, not getting 95% is usually at least 25-50% points loss, if not greater.

Even then, both of you are still only attacking my minor point and not the major point, which is touchscreen usage and how totally ranking-breaking it is because the game is so unbalanced towards aim and combo.

It doesn't matter what level you are. Higher accuracy always gives way more PP. I could get more PP by farming acc easily.

As we have seen from the vast majority of players, it's the easiest to get PP at 97-99+% accuracy. Thus any arguments that 60% PP plays give too much PP falls flat on its face because if that was the case then everyone would be doing it. But that's not the case, and besides tablet players you're only able to show one players who has acc that low, and he's doing it intentionally. If you want to complain about tablet players, complain about tablet players. Accuracy definitely isn't undervalued.

As we have seen from the vast majority of players, it's the easiest to get PP at 97-99+% accuracy. Thus any arguments that 60% PP plays give too much PP falls flat on its face because if that was the case then everyone would be doing it.

You mean, it's usually easiest to full combo a map you can already play well? Your perception is being totally distorted by the ranking system. How many great accuracy plays are you not seeing because there's a combo break in there somewhere?

But that's not the case, and besides tablet players you're only able to show one players who has acc that low, and he's doing it intentionally. If you want to complain about tablet players, complain about tablet players, because accuracy definitely isn't undervalued.

There are plenty of high ranked, low accuracy touchscreen players. I don't need to exhaustively list every single one of them to make my point. And what is even the point of the last sentence? Do you understand what this thread is about?

..

B1rd wrote:

And as I've said, if you don't like the combo system, this game obviously isn't for you.

Don't talk about anything, everything is already perfect as it is and if there's a problem we should just just burn the whole thing to the ground. Great contribution, thanks for playing. I'm not even discussing the part where the combo system makes tournaments and multiplayer boring and predictable and completely unworthy of being an e-sport despite having a million plus sized user base.

Emersyne wrote:

Also, if you think "well it might be broken but if you don't like it, go play another game" is a valid point, you are unworthy of being part of the discussion, full stop.

It's not broken and nothing needs to be fixed in regards what you are talking about. It's just you complaining because you in your subjective opinion you don't like that accuracy isn't the only skill that is important and you can get to a high rank by excelling in a number of skills other than accuracy. Touchscreen is an example of how you can get to a high rank with good aim, however it comes with its own tradeoffs, as it limits you to a very small mappool, makes it very difficult to stream and to get good acc, which is just as important a skill as aim. It may have a faster skill curve, but it also has a lower skill ceiling, and that's why you only see 1 players using touchscreen in the top 50. The fact that touchscreen players were able to rank so high in such a short time is just as much an example as you own lack of skill as any inherent advantage of the touchscreen.

Thus, you've completely failed to demonstrate that touchscreens are overpowered compared to tablets or that the system needs to change.

B1rd wrote:

It's just you complaining because you in your subjective opinion you don't like that accuracy isn't the only skill that is important and you can get to a high rank by excelling in a number of skills other than accuracy.

It's not just unimportant, it is completely worthless without aim. Accuracy only serves as a multiplier for good aim, it has no value on its own. Is it any mystery why top taiko and osu!mania players are often interchangable but are rarely, if ever, equally competent at osu!standard? It's because their incredible rhythm skills are severely devalued because of the aim/combo component, both things that are not present in those game modes.

Don't believe me? http://osu.dawnglare.com/?p=totalpp

The vast majority of people on this list whom osu!std is not the weak link in their pp gain main osu!std. The skills transfer mostly one way.

B1rd wrote:

Touchscreen is an example of how you can get to a high rank with good aim, however it comes with its own tradeoffs, as it limits you to a very small mappool, makes it very difficult to stream and to get good acc, which is just as important a skill as aim.

I vaguely recall talking about a player who's main talent is streaming with exceptionally poor accuracy and yet somehow the player nets a significant majority of the pp available for the map due to combo. Remind me how much that same map is worth with perfect accuracy and a single miss in the middle?

B1rd wrote:

It may have a faster skill curve, but it also has a lower skill ceiling, and that's why you only see 1 players using touchscreen in the top 50.

How many touchscreen players have invested the amount of hours anywhere near the amount that other players using typical inputs use? Oh yeah, zero. The top touchscreen player has only 500 hours of playtime. Where would that player be if they had the playtime of WubWoofWolf?

The fact that touchscreen players were able to rank so high in such a short time is just as much an example as you own lack of skill as any inherent advantage of the touchscreen. Thus, you've completely failed to demonstrate that touchscreens are overpowered compared to tablets or that the system needs to change.

650 pp 78% acc C rank on a 40 second map with Nofail enabled is definitely not broken.

In any case, you're completely exaggerating your point.
Accuracy is not worthless. That is obvious.

Aim is a key component of osu!standard. The arrangement of the note (ideally) serves as an additional layer of expression and is in many cases strongly tied to rhythm as well. This might not be relevant for pp-meta maps but for more complex maps that are actually not mapped with pp in mind, having a good rhythm sense will greatly help you with reading and therefore also with aiming.

If you want to say that ppv2 is broken then the answer is yes and if you say that the mapping meta is strongly effected by ppv2, none would disagree. This has nothing to do with the general importance of rhythm for this gamemode though. You ain't going to get top 50 on non-meta maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/31438?m=0 without rhythm sense either.

Do you know what the word refute means?

I don't need to refute you, because reality already refutes you, saying that rhythm doesn't matter at all because a minority of touchscreen players are able to make high PP aim players is self-evidently crazy. Call me when a touchscreen player FCs Freedom Dive with HDHR.

Lol. Wrong

> All the highest pp plays are at least OD 9.

> Stream maps require little to no aim and at OD 10 are completely broken.

> Freedom dive HDHR is 800pp and has low aim requirements compared to other maps at that level.

> a 1000pp choke by cookiezi was a stream map. A 1000pp map that was largely aim would be impossible

> HD and higher OD requires no increase in aim and gives free pp.

> Most pp maps have to have at least triples or quintuples to increase note density, these don't really require aim. Note density is rhythm sense heavy and note dense maps give more pp.

> Having good rhythm sense makes your aim better since you know the exact moment in the song you can start moving your cursor.

> Longer maps require better rhythm sense and give more pp with the same peak difficulty.

Emersyne wrote:

: Ming3012, a highly talented player who sandbags their accuracy as much as possible for the lulz

Umm you realize he is has a pretty decent playtime for his rank. His low acc play style is not broken so this point is invalid

Emersyne wrote:

You mean, there's a fair difference between "someone who played the map almost perfectly, and someone who sandbagged the map

Don't underestimate the skill required to set his scores. They are low acc but good luck setting the same scores

Emersyne wrote:

concentrating on accuracy is a meaningless struggle that rewards you peanuts in terms of the amount of effort invested

PP = aim x accuracy

assume aim = 5 and accuracy = 1 and you can only increase aim or accuracy by 1 point.

If you train acc

PP = 5 x 2 = 10

If you train aim

PP = 6 x 1 = 6

Therefore training what you are bad at gives higher returns for the same time investment. Its simple math. This even applies if there is less reward for acc training.

Emersyne wrote:

How many great accuracy plays are you not seeing because there's a combo break in there somewhere?

Combo breaks are effected by both lack of aim or lack of rhythm sense

Emersyne wrote:

Accuracy only serves as a multiplier for good aim, it has no value on its own

Just because it doesn't have value on its own does not mean it does not have value.

Money has zero value on its own and yet it is VERY powerful

Emersyne wrote:

Here we have a top 50 player who plays touchscreen. They are rank #49, with a paltry 90% accuracy. This in itself presents an extremely compelling argument to play touchscreen - sacrifice pretty much all rhythm precision to drastically increase the proficiency of your aim.

Its more about how pp is calculated. Cross screen jumps are less about aim when you are playing touchscreen and are over weighted for that play style. There needs to be a separate pp system for touch screen but this does not mean rhythm is worthless as you say.

yea this guy should be rank #1 in osu standard. ikr

It's definitely a rhythm game. It says so on the info tab.

Seriously though I've gotten friends to play this game and there were people who honestly had better aim than me but they're lack of rhythm and ability to click on the beat made them play like shit. Aim and accuracy are important but I'd say accuracy is much more important. tbh tho i picked this game up to improve my aim in fps games

Emersyne wrote:

I think most of us can agree that the pp system isn't perfect. A lot of people claim that it leads to the gamification of mapping, or unrealistic portrayals of player skill. I'm not entirely sure if I agree with this premise, but it has slowly dawned on me that there is a much more serious, grave issue: because score and pp are almost entirely combo-based, accuracy is 100% worthless without combo. You can be a top player with little to no accuracy whatsoever as long as you can hold a combo. In short, osu! is not a rhythm game, it is an aiming game. It might as well be a first person shooter for all that rhythm matters in the rankings.

Let me show you some examples of just how totally broken the system is at a high level.

Here we have a top 50 player who plays touchscreen. They are rank #49, with a paltry 90% accuracy. This in itself presents an extremely compelling argument to play touchscreen - sacrifice pretty much all rhythm precision to drastically increase the proficiency of your aim. What are cross screen jumps to a touchscreen player? Hai Tai all day baby! It's not like the scoring system will punish you for it, clearly. They have less hours than me, a forgettable 20K mouse scrub, and are in the top 50. Why am I even wasting my time playing the game as it was primarily designed? I strongly suggest you read their bio, as it goes more into depth on the last point.

This isn't meant to be taken as an indictment of touchscreen in any way - I think that their acheivement is incredibly cool - but it is a total indictment of how the pp system rewards you purely for aim and combo, something that is drastically easier with certain playstyles, and that concentrating on accuracy is a meaningless struggle that rewards you peanuts in terms of the amount of effort invested.

Here's an even more extreme example. Rank 240, a solid 250 hours ingame, 83% accuracy. One year was all it took to break top 250. Again, I strongly suggest you read their profile so you can get how broken this shit is, straight from the source. And again, it couldn't be any more clear: if you really want to be "good" at this game, don't buy a tablet, buy a touchscreen computer.

But hey, let's forget touchscreen for a moment. Those guys are basically cheaters anyway, this is a mouse and tablet game right? Well, I present to you: Ming3012, a highly talented player who sandbags their accuracy as much as possible for the lulz. Their average accuracy is a mind-blowing 66.66%. Their top play is 422 pp with a solid 60%. Why even bother trying to be accurate? Why be an accuracy focused player like yuriOS or Enify? Nobody is going to care and you will languish in obscurity, because to sum it up: osu! is a rhythm game where rhythm doesn't matter.

> touchscreen shitstorm
> pointing out players
> calling touchscreen players a "cheaters"
> complete lack of basics in term of game mechanic and formulas
> complete lack of knowledge about players (placing MinG into low acc players while he was shooting 99% acc scores in OWC......)
> complete lack of knowledge about the game itself

Nothing more to add, I guess just calling touchscreen players a "cheaters" would be reason to silence you and burn this topic alive into oblivion.

If you had few working braincells, you would point out scores, rise arguments, avoid insulting players and playstyle, prepare for discussion properly.
This whole shit is just "cry me a river" from another butthurt kid who follow /r/osucancer ts hate like a sheep without brain.

Welcome to thread of shitstorm, insults and lack of any logic.

And no, osu is not a mouse/tablet only game. Original precursor, Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan / Elite Beat Agents were an Nintendo DS touchscreen games. By root logic, touchscreen is very close to original playstyle.

PP from cross-screen jumps is not a playstyle problem, it is both - formula and mapping problem. What is easier to fix here? Nothing.
Just deal with it and move on. Nobody will force mappers to not make full screen jumps, monstrata and c.o. will anyway make garbage maps.
PP formula? Well... not in the future, there are bigger priorities right now.

By this stupid "mouse/tablet" ideology and twisted logic out of ass, mouse only players can call keyboard unfair, m+k tablet, rubberdome keyboard user can call mechanical keyboard unfair etc etc etc. Cut this shit out, nobody fucking care, it is just pointless drama made by someone uneducated and bored with his entire life.

Considering 90% of my top scores are 99% acc I think otherwise

Skidayo wrote:

yea this guy should be rank #1 in osu standard. ikr

Or Barusamikosu!

I.

Hmm, I'm not sure I approve of arguments of the form "X is Y, therefore X should have purpose Y".

"osu! is a rhythm game, therefore osu! rankings should reward rhythm skill more."

It's circular. Compare:

"Mio Winter is a human, humans are social animals, therefore Mio Winter should be more social."

"Mio Winter is a human, humans are greedy, therefore Mio Winter should be more greedy."

Do you feel compelled by these arguments? They have the same structure as the rhythm argument, so if we want to be consistent we either have to accept them all or reject them all.

II.

Imagine a game that has been designed to require skills A, B, C, D and E. This game has been designed to put more strain on some skills than other skills. Let's say that 60 % of the difficulty of the game is due to A, and each of the other skills only adds 10 % to the overall difficulty of the game (that makes a total of 100 %).

Someone comes up to you and says, "this game is a D game, therefore the game should be redesigned to require more D skill."

What would you reply?

III.

I do however approve of arguments of the form "rhythm is a really fun skill to try to get better at, so the osu! ranking system should value rhythm sense more". In general, I think arguments about changing osu! should be about what makes it more fun, or more interesting, or more more. The argument "osu! is a rhythm game, therefore it should focus more on rhythm" doesn't seem to be any of that.

IV.

That being said... accuracy is a really cool skill, so I want the game to focus on it. On the other hand, I have the worst accuracy on the planet (Ming gets bad acc on purpose, I get bad acc because I'm bad), so maybe not.