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[New] Guideline: Countdown

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42
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
From viewtopic.php?p=1083474#p1083474

I think countdown should be enabled when there's no beat (beat =/= sound) before the first note and there's enough time since the start of the song, hence i propose the following guideline

Countdown should be enabled if there's no constant rythm before the first note to help the player hit the note according to the music instead than relying 100% on approach circles, if there's some reasonable time from mp3 start so that countdown can appear, however in some cases a countdown may sound ugly on the song, so use your common sense.

I'd like to argue that a skinned countdown can be included to counter the later portion but not everyone is good at skinning, anyways i'd like to hear some opinions on this.

And yeah that might need some rewording too.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
I don't think so. Songs where there's no beat--especially silence or a sustained note--are the songs where a countdown fits the least. Inaccuracy on the first note isn't a big deal since it's easy to restart.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
On the contrarty, i always thought of the countdown as a way to hint the player to the rythm/beat of the song to help start the song accurately, but then again that was my thought which is why i want to get more opinions on this.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

mm201 wrote:

I don't think so. Songs where there's no beat--especially silence or a sustained note--are the songs where a countdown fits the least. Inaccuracy on the first note isn't a big deal since it's easy to restart.
I really hate it when a song starts without any pickup.

100? fuck restart. x33 until I get that 300.

This doesn't need a guideline. It should be obvious when a countdown is necessary or adds to the beatmap, but it's on a per-beatmap basis. We don't need more rules/guidelines. We need less.
Breeze
osu! Alumni
4,949 posts
Joined March 2009
Breeze
There are really many songs don't fit countdown, especially slow song, it depends on songs.
And it's not that hard to tell when map started
Gomo Psivarh
584 posts
Joined December 2009
Gomo Psivarh
As a player, I hate countdowns

Many players like frequently retrying at the beginning, the constant three two one go three two one go is a nuke on their head.

Instead of using countdown, use slider as the 1st note to avoid early 100s.
wcx19911123
3,862 posts
Joined June 2010
wcx19911123
I think no one would annoy with missing combo at song's beginning
and the default countdown really sound odd to most of songs >_>
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
Sometimes this will work. Other time it sounds afwul. This is way too case-by-case to justify adding a guideline to the already-huge guideline list.
yongtw123
1,028 posts
Joined April 2009
yongtw123
Ok a very quick workaround is to have the first object of a map a slider.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
What if it doesn't feel right to put a slider as the first object?
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
....there are approach circles for a reason, people.
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
4,432 posts
Here since the beginning
LuigiHann
This might be a good time to mention that when there's a note so close to the start of the mp3 that you have to enable lead-in time, osu! won't include a countdown even if it's enabled in song setup. So it'd be tough to enforce a rule like this when it is impossible to actually do it :P

I still think there ought to be an option for quiet count-in tick sounds for cases like this. Gives a sense of the tempo without all the shouting. Could be implemented just as a soft sampleset version of the countdown.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9119
xsrsbsns
1,936 posts
Joined July 2010
xsrsbsns
As much as I love countdowns to help me pick up, loud countdowns in quiet songs (which is where they are most helpful) won't fit most of the time, that's why I said it'd sound awkward. The quiet ticks LH mentioned sound interesting though. If anything, this doesn't need to be a guideline.

Gomo Psivarh wrote:

Many players like frequently retrying at the beginning
Really? I didn't know that XD
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
You can skin the countdown sounds iirc
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
4,432 posts
Here since the beginning
LuigiHann
You can skin hitsounds too, so why bother including the soft sampleset? Oh right, because it's useful across hundreds of different songs


mm201 wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9119

the piano intro establishes the tempo there fine
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

yongtw123 wrote:

Ok a very quick workaround is to have the first object of a map a slider.
This introduces a bug which puts the approach circle behind the slider if the slider starts at a very small ms value.

Shiirn wrote:

....there are approach circles for a reason, people.
I'm more complaining about hidden.
xsrsbsns
1,936 posts
Joined July 2010
xsrsbsns

ziin wrote:

I'm more complaining about hidden.
I know right, but someone will say
"well, hidden was designed for no approach circles help, and it's your fault for using it, it should be harder for the extra score"
..and I can't deny that.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

xsrsbsns wrote:

ziin wrote:

I'm more complaining about hidden.
I know right, but someone will say
"well, hidden was designed for no approach circles help, and it's your fault for using it, it should be harder for the extra score"
..and I can't deny that.
it's eggpain.
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
pieguyn
This guideline doesn't have a point and really doesn't make sense. Having a slow start with no sound doesn't fit a countdown at all, and you can tell based on approach circles when the note is anyway so it's not needed ><
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura

pieguy1372 wrote:

This guideline doesn't have a point and really doesn't make sense. Having a slow start with no sound doesn't fit a countdown at all, and you can tell based on approach circles when the note is anyway so it's not needed ><
Well i kinda figured, maybe i should make a feature request for players being the ones that enable/disable countdown on the options menu or something rather than the mappers
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
Countdown works fine for my map D: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/36198. But then people kept asking me to remove it.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Playing with Hidden implies you are aiming for a high score and will likely need to restart a lot anyway.
Plus, I don't see how the countdown is accurate enough to keep you from getting 100s on the first few notes.
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
It's not inaccurate, it's just obstructive sometimes. http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/166444 It may not be the best picture but you might get the idea.

Well at least that's what I think about HD with countdown.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

mm201 wrote:

Playing with Hidden implies you are aiming for a high score and will likely need to restart a lot anyway.
Plus, I don't see how the countdown is accurate enough to keep you from getting 100s on the first few notes.
when a conductor begins a piece, he usually gives you 4 for free or at least the pickup beat. When he doesn't do that, you can hear the cacophony that follows.

Once you get the beat and offset in your head, hidden is easy, so long as you know where the notes are.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Some metronome tick before the music start would be so cool :3.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Well this guideline is probably a waste of time from the responses i get, but im getting pretty interesting ideas for feature requests instead.
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke
I never use countdown. It simply sounds retarded. On top of that, it distracts me from circles.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
What we need is a better sounding countdown for the defaultskin to use. It does sound horribly cheesy, but it serves a useful purpose.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
stepmania gives you a visual metronome throughout the song.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
It also doesn't use hitsounds, but uses a visual timing feedback system instead.
Not that I'm opposed to the idea of adding some sort of small visual metronome guide as an extra.
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke
This isn't stepmania though
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
A toggleable Visual Metronome and a metronome tickin during lead in(or even ending befor the 1st note) could be good to make the player see the timing of the map.
LuigiHann
Resident Skinner
4,432 posts
Here since the beginning
LuigiHann

mm201 wrote:

What we need is a better sounding countdown for the defaultskin to use. It does sound horribly cheesy, but it serves a useful purpose.
I'm telling you, man. Normal soundset, keep the current countdown. Soft soundset, replace it with a "1...2...1,2,3,4" tick count-in
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I think that a more appropriate guideline would be "Maps should start after a discernible beat has been established." That, or "The placement of the first hit object should be obvious." In other words, if one has to squint at the first approach circle in order to get a 300, then something is wrong with the map.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

D33d wrote:

I think that a more appropriate guideline would be "Maps should start after a discernible beat has been established." That, or "The placement of the first hit object should be obvious." In other words, if one has to squint at the first approach circle in order to get a 300, then something is wrong with the map.
We're mostly talking about the fact that first beats in a map aren't easily takeable because your head hasn't established an actual rhythmn for the song ( as so they need a countdown ), not about first beats in a maps that are offbeat = a BAT will block your rank for this.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
What? An offbeat first note is rankable.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

D33d wrote:

I think that a more appropriate guideline would be "Maps should start after a discernible beat has been established." That, or "The placement of the first hit object should be obvious." In other words, if one has to squint at the first approach circle in order to get a 300, then something is wrong with the map.
We're mostly talking about the fact that first beats in a map aren't easily takeable because your head hasn't established an actual rhythmn for the song ( as so they need a countdown ), not about first beats in a maps that are offbeat = a BAT will block your rank for this.
That's what I meant. Being able to establish the first beat. As in, if a song has an intro with very little going on, or launches straight into the beat, then I find it better if some of where the beat comes in isn't mapped in order to establish the feel. I hope that that wasn't too confusing to read.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
the last 3 posts are a moat of confusion

It is a good idea to make sure maps start with a discernible beat. It is not even remotely guidelineable.

The less rules the better people.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
I say offbeat to say that the note you're mapping it's off the music (basically meaning overmapped).

There not even need to make that many rules ( as it's happening )
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
The current rules are very wordy, but not really all that imposing. The wordiness is mainly an artifact of common sense not being all so common, leading to obvious things needing to be stated everywhere. There's room for improvement.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Sakura
Ok guess this won't work anyways, so i'll just scrap this one out :(
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