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[Guideline]Break time.

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38
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin
Use breaks where possible. Even if they are only 5-10 seconds, it allows a bit of recovery and hand repositioning for players. However, try to avoid longer breaks that are in excess of 15 seconds. Breaks should especially be used with Easy/Normal difficulties
This really depends on the song, and i feel this guideline may be misleading... Breaks should be put at where it fits (the vocal stops, a hard-to-map slow part, etc), not "1 min gone so we must have a break".

Also, for Hard/Insane players, a 2~3s break, a short draining time, or a slow-down part is probably enough for them to recovery/repositioning, break is not the only way to do that, so "break because we need a break" is quite weird. if a song rocks all the way i don't see the need to force a break somewhere.

For 15 seconds limit, as long as it's a guideline... fine then.

So a changed version here:

Use breaks where fits. Have a break at a reasonable place allows a bit of recovery and hand repositioning for players, then they can enjoy the map better. Try to avoid breaks that are in excess of 15 seconds so players won't wait too long for it. It is highly recommended to use breaks frequently with Easy/Normal difficulties
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
I'm ok with 1/1 to recover the control of the cursor totally, I don't need a break for this, just with a slow part is fine. About the break long time, I think that 15 secs is really boring, I want to play, not to wait.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

NatsumeRin wrote:

Breaks should especially be used with Easy/Normal difficulties
I disagree with placing this part in the rules. Using the same break placement for all difficulties is a mapping technique which shouldn't be discouraged.

Breaks or cooldown sections are needed so the player can get a grip of their cursor and pause if need be. Making them too long is a bad idea.
Breaks in excess of 15 seconds are blah but probably tolerable if there's a story.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Use breaks when possible in longer maps to make the player rest a little for recover and hand repositioning.
I quite think the seconds limits aren't needed, as if a 20seconds break fit, it's better than it being 15seconds.

"when possible" do actually a similiar thing than "where it fits", if it fits, it's actually possible, if they fit nowhere, it isn't possible.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
And if a break doesnt fit anywhere in a 6 minute map with no intro/outro? should players endure the whole 6 minutes of moving and clicking without any tiny bit of hand repositioning or rest?
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin

Sakura Hana wrote:

And if a break doesnt fit anywhere in a 6 minute map with no intro/outro? should players endure the whole 6 minutes of moving and clicking without any tiny bit of hand repositioning or rest?
Slow down part/draining sections would be recommended. 99% of the song would have such a part, and even if it doesn't, this song has 6min draining time and will go to app, fast all the way and never stop, top players won't mind that.

I post this to say: Don't let this guideline break the consistency of a map (a break when the vocal still singing, when the music in fact doesn't change, etc.), "fits" is more accurate than "possible"
Mismagius
9,259 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

Sakura Hana wrote:

And if a break doesnt fit anywhere in a 6 minute map with no intro/outro? should players endure the whole 6 minutes of moving and clicking without any tiny bit of hand repositioning or rest?
Then you're probably doing it wrong. First, it seems a bit weird to not find any spot on a 6-minute song to put a break. Second, if you have a 6-minute map without breaks and doesn't go over 18 (or 20) million score, you're probably mapping it very very wrong.
GigaClon
168 posts
Joined September 2011
GigaClon
I think that breaks are important in every song and if you can't find a spot to break or at least slow down you are doing it wrong. Also I wouldn't play a 6-minute map
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
I agree with Rin on this one, breaks should be placed where they could fit the song. Every song has a fitting break placement, you just have to find it. Also, shorter maps (<2 mins) probably don't even need one if the bpm isn't crazy.
Also I think having 15 second limit on a break is pretty dumb too, because its quite possible to have, lets say, a section of 20~25 seconds which would be fitting for a break. This would be case per case scenario obviously, so those 15 seconds shouldn't be set in stone.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Suggest less Hp drain in longer map with small break or draining section (an high HP drain during draining section still make you lose your HP)
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Drain sections are bad because you are still expecting the next note, while with break you can do whatever until it's finished. There are very few cases where I think drain section would fit, but those moments are too short and very specific and sometimes even a spinner would cover that nicely.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Use break time where it fit, especially in long maps. Having it help the recovery of the player, allowing him to relax his hand and reposition himself easily. If you don't find other alternatives, you can maybe use a "drain section"(a section that is easier than the rest of the map) and lower the HP Drain
I modded NatsumeRin version, left the limits (as long or short, if it fits and the map is long, it's a good thing to have) and added the "drain section" alternative.
Changed breaks with break time, as it should be more correct (it's written like that in the Editor)
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Drain sections shouldn't be encouraged. They are bad balance.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
I don't think we mods (contaning you MATs and BATs) will anyway make people use Draining Section on wrong places.
And that's too the reason I'm suggesting to lower HP Drain anyway.
Break or Draining Sections on wrong places will still sound off ( a draining section in the most epic part... it's nono, a break time in the middle of a strophe too )
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Controversial things should still be kept out of the guidelines.

Try to add breaks when it makes sense. Don't use them too frequently, or too infrequently. Once per minute should be good, although this depends on the music. Breaks don't need to be long. 5 seconds should suffice for the player to be able to pause and/or reposition their mouse. Avoid breaks longer than 15 seconds, as they become boring and monotonous.
This is a guideline, not a hard rule. The mention of 1 minute gives new mappers an idea of what is expected.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Usually you shouldn't enforce limits with guidelines either( less than 5, more than 15... ) as the "when it makes sense" is there and if a long break makes sense it's still better. 1st misinterpretable thing.
You should suggest to use them "in longer maps" not "frequently or infrequntly" as it's something that can be misinterpretated.

I don't want modder say that " you need to make the break longer or shorter ", i want to hear them "it make more sense as this if-" and like this it can be misinterpretated.

If one can't find places to use a break, he might make HP drain lower and use a draining section. The reason for that is making mappers aware of an alternative moreover.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I find that, even if it doesn't sound like it, even a monotonous song will still have a suitable place for one or two breaks at the very least. It wouldn't sound too awkward if the mapper chooses one small section for a break. Even with short tracks, it's only reasonable to give the player a little bit of time to readjust their hand. Drain sections don't really do this, because they force the player to keep moving their mouse. For one, I use a mouse on low sensitivity with somewhat limited space, so I need to find somewhere to center it.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Drain sections have poor game balance. If the player has a lapse of poor playing just before the drain section begins, they fail even though they might be hitting straight 300s for many seconds.

The numbers in my wording are just there as suggestions, since one person's idea of "just long enough" could be different from someone else's.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Breaks are there for players to rest and resposition their mice, it has nothing to do with the map difficulty, however this discussion needs to continue so we can decide on a final veredict.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
Try to add breaks when it makes sense. Don't use them too frequently, or too infrequently. Once every minute or two for around 5 seconds allow the player to pause and/or reposition their mouse. Avoid breaks longer than 15 seconds, as they become boring and monotonous.
Breaks are largely ignored. AIBat reports "you must have a break before 1:30:00" on virtually every song I use it on. Clearly nobody gives a shit, and having 4 breaks in a 5 minute song is overkill.
Kite
osu! Alumni
1,372 posts
Joined July 2009
Kite
Breaks should only be used if the song lets you and it would feel wrong mapping a certain part.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Yeah, I'm happy with the guideline as it is. Cooldown sections don't work when one plays with a mouse--even if the map moves evenly around the centre, pattern variance and mouse acceleration/the fact that one will never move their mouse in perfect motions would cause the mouse to drift a lot. This problem is only compounded by structureless "flow" maps.

Really, I think that one or two bars should the absolute minimum for a break/space, because there would be ample time for the player to not only center their mouse, but also to anticipate the next section.

Hello, extra posts. Three or four breaks is overkill in many 3-4-minute songs, but it depends on how intense the patterns are and how far the player has to move their hand. I use low sensitivity and long, screen-covering sections make it very hard for me to keep my mouse on my pad/desk. Besides that, it just gets uncomfortable. Besides that, it always makes sense that maps are paced in a logical way, and that includes placing breaks to break up the flow of a map. It would be silly to map everything non-stop and awful, monotonous tracks give even more reason against this--mashing and flailing to such a track would become incredibly tedious. There is no excuse not to use one or two breaks.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Kite wrote:

Breaks should only be used if the song lets you and it would feel wrong mapping a certain part.
I second this. A break should make sense. Not because you need one so you place it on a chorus or something (yes I have actually seen stuff like that cause of YOU MUST HAVE A BREAK thing).
ziin already worded it nicely though, although I would disagree with the "once every minute or two" thing, because that's a suggestion. A suggestion should be in a separate part instead of the main part where you describe the guideline, so it should come at the end with the wording like "A good way to use breaks would be every once in a while so the player can rest, which means <insert suggestions here>." or something.

Also, shorter maps (tvsize, or short ver. under 2 mins) probably don't even need a break at all, unless there is a "cut off" part in the music which is completely silent or improvised to an extent that it's unmappable.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Long last the only needed part is
Try to add breaks when it makes sense, especially in longer maps, to allow the player to pause and/or reposition their mouse.
suggesting limits isn't anyway good. And this is to prevent modder from being picky suggesting a longer/smaller break where it don't fit, as MANY really read only the part that say the limits...
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
If there is no place for a break, then don't put any. Such short maps don't really need breaks anyway.

And 29 seconds isn't rankable.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I'd still go for at least one break in a TV Size map, even if it's just a bar without objects. Perhaps a map which only lasts for one minute would be fine without breaks, but it should depend on how busy the map is. If a mouse player has to move the cursor a lot, then even a minute of gameplay could become tiring and awkward.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
breaks in tv sizes are actually avoidable
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

breaks in tv sizes are actually avoidable
This, TV Sizes don't really need breaks at all, breaks are necessary normally when you have more than 1:30 ~ 2:00 without breaks, i'm the one who suggested those times for AIBat, basically at 1:30 it tells you that you should use a break but after 2:00 it tells you that you need a break (notice the wording is different and the last one only appears in Taiko so far in every map i modded) which means most of the time maps have pretty good break placement regardless of what the current guidelines say.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
The actual guideline isn't that much needed, as there aren't so many maps that use a bad break placement, and if there are the mapper do rightly accept it...
remember the "suggestion" section ziin proposed? this could go there...
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

breaks in tv sizes are actually avoidable
They are, but it still doesn't 'hurt to have a short break somewhere. 'Hoshi no Sumika' has a well-placed break, because it follows a long stream of 1/2s in a fast song and lasts for four bars. The four bars also aren't crying out for something to be mapped over them.

If a break was placed over a section which should clearly be mapped or is too long, then a break would be a dreadful idea. Otherwise, one break in a bridge or prechorus would be a good thing to mention in the guideline.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I don't think it's horrible to tell players they should add breaks here and there. I can't see a moment where a break was placed in the wrong area, because of this guideline. Also break length doesn't matter. Your break will be as long as the section of the song allows.

I don't quite agree that there has to be a change in tempo/ rhythm to constitute a break. If you want to add one instead of mapping a repetitious part, then go right ahead. It's really optional for the most part. Players can and do play crazy shit without breaks. Only some of the longer songs wear these players out.

Song length and amount of clicking determines suggested break inclusion. With this being said break time is subjective and changes with the map.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Use break time where it fit, especially in long maps. Having it help the recovery of the player, allowing him to relax his hand and reposition himself easily.
Like I proposed, no time limits suggestions at all.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
I vote scrap the guideline entirely. excessively long songs with no breaks aren't necessarily bad. Good as a recommendation, but this whole thing is so vague it's sickening.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
It's a guideline. It's not unreasonable to say, "hey, you should maybe add a break somewhere, so that the player doesn't mangle their wrist" or something. The guideline suggests using a break. It can't be too specific, because that would be impossible to impress upon people. It shouldn't be abolished, because then a lack of breaks where they clearly should be could be excused with, "it's not a guideline."

Also, excessively long songs with no breaks sound extremely tedious, especially if the track itself is a bland piece of shit. I'd want something to break things up.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
This guideline doesn't fit with the other guidelines.

It's largely ignored by most mappers, modders, and bats.
animez15
122 posts
Joined April 2012
animez15
AGreed! especially for the new ones :) well if u are good and prof on it, then go!..As for me if the map dont have breaks, my hands goes numbs and getting so light and then its gone be on mess. <--just as an example :) for for do breaking, just make sure it doesnt take long. It'll make boring.
emergist
106 posts
Joined April 2011
emergist

ziin wrote:

This guideline doesn't fit with the other guidelines.

It's largely ignored by most mappers, modders, and bats.
So it should be modified.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
ziin idea's better than mine u.u
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