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Flow or Structure?

posted
Total Posts
25

Which one do you prefer?

Flow is the most important thing in a map, it usually fits the music better and plays really well.
15
22.39%
Flow is more important but structure is also a part should be seriously treated.
25
37.31%
I can't decide between them, they're of the same importance imo.
12
17.91%
Strucure is more important but you can't ignore the flows as well.
6
8.96%
Structure is the most important thing in a map, it makes a map looks awesome and i could enjoy it more.
2
2.99%
NO I ONLY CARE ABOUT SCORES!
7
10.45%
Total votes: 67
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin
Curious... asked by ErufenRito to start this.

It's really useless try to combine them or to compare between styles, but it would be fun to just start a poll.

Structure usually means symmetry here. Shinxyn's hidden style is more a flow thing, or my style is based on flow as well.

Even if you really enjoy Krisom or Mafiamaster's flow, structure should still be at the first place.

Let's go!
Luvdic
2,113 posts
Joined July 2009
Luvdic
I have found myself to enjoy a lot more playing maps that has decent structure but great flow than maps with great structure and decent flow.

Also, I want to mention that just because a map doesn't have symmetry, it does not mean that it is not structured at all (/me looks at gladi and lesjuh)

But come on, keep voting, I'm really curious about this :3
Gonzvlo
osu! Alumni
2,896 posts
Joined January 2010
Gonzvlo
So, do you wanna kill your mom or dad?, Will you rip your right or your left eye?

This poll is just silly, maps must have at least a little bit of both elements to create a decent map. Trying to prove that one is more important than the other one is simply illogical.

That's just my point of view.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
Considering both are largely subjective once you reach the "not-shit-at-either" point, i'll go with the option that says "this poll is stupid"


make better crap natsume
Luvdic
2,113 posts
Joined July 2009
Luvdic
Don't put all the blame on Natsume, for what it's worth, I could have been the one to start this thread.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
suggest better crap erufen


but seriously, flow and structure and all kinds of different names for things


Weren't people advocating how osu isn an art project more than a game?


Now you guys are taking it too far into the gaming perspective. While osu! is, at its core, a game, it is not a scientific game that munchkin gremlins can min-max at, it is a game aobut flow and subjectivity and all that obscure crap that nobody, NOBODY, will be able to put numbers on and make scientific.


People take their sides too far, mapping should be art with rules made for gamers, not art made for artists or games made for gamers or other random combinations of those. Thinking about it too much is and restraining it too much is just as harmful as thinking or restraining too little.
Luvdic
2,113 posts
Joined July 2009
Luvdic
Suggest? I'm merely curious about what the players prefers more while playing, cause the maps are made after all for others to play (inb4 someone maps for some dark and twisted reason)

And please, I'm not even intending to start another discussion about what's better, cause it's obvious that if we go to one of the wrong extremes -great flow map, but awful structure/great structure, but awful flow- the result is just bad. And so ideally the mix between these should be 1:1 to have a great map.

But guess what, not all mappers can achieve that (and those mappers that I have seen to have achieved it on a frequent basis, it's the ones that I can really call them as great mapper). And that's when some maps with more flow/less structure, or less flow/more structure appears, and so I'm just curious about what the players prefers to play more:
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
Structure and flow are so heavily intertwined that they might as well be the same thing. At least, it should if the map isn't crap.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
STRUCFLOWTURE

Waiting for you on that Krisom.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
One can't exist without the other. They are inherently interdependent concepts.
The poll is broken.
Glass
1,527 posts
Joined January 2010
Glass
both
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
According to the poll symmetry = structure and flow = not symmetric?

......

.......

really now, you probably should have said Nonsymmetrical but still flowy vs Symmetrical, that would probably yield better results in a poll, because flows have structure, and symmetry has flow (unless the mapper forces symmetry into the map regardless of the song which is just wrong). which is why i voted that both are important.

Also LOL at option 6
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
I don't get at all what flow or structure is, a map is good or bad depending on how it is played and that's all there is to it imo.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin
it's not trying to devide them, plz treat it as a poll "do you love your father more or your mother more?" "are you left-handed or right-handed?", Gonzvlo's analogy really sucks.
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish
The reason I'd say this poll is silly is that no "structure" mapper will completely ignore flow, but a "flow" mapper can completely ignore structure, so this should really be asking "structure or no structure?".

A lack of structure can make maps samey and uninteresting after a while, but even in small doses can enhance a map beautifully. Newer Gladi maps are a good example. Just using similarly shaped patterns in places where the music matches up adds so much to a map as a whole.
Structure is all about making a map feel distinct and memorable. Mappers who disregard placement entirely, concentrating on the rhythms and flow only, are basically missing out on half of what can make a map truly unique.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

NatsumeRin wrote:

it's not trying to devide them, plz treat it as a poll "do you love your father more or your mother more?" "are you left-handed or right-handed?", Gonzvlo's analogy really sucks.
It's like asking whether you're left handed or right handed when tying a knot.
Equivalent_old
210 posts
Joined October 2010
Equivalent_old
Quite subjective ~.~ But for me, I try hard to make it more structure without disturbing the flow "much"

Edit: I leaned more toward structure but I feel odd when it not following the flow of the song, so I will map song that fits in for structure more
Last edited by Equivalent_old , edited 1 time in total.
Gonzvlo
osu! Alumni
2,896 posts
Joined January 2010
Gonzvlo

NatsumeRin wrote:

it's not trying to devide them, plz treat it as a poll "do you love your father more or your mother more?" "are you left-handed or right-handed?", Gonzvlo's analogy really sucks.
Please, remind me to explain everything in detail next time.

What I'm trying to say is that both of those elements are equally important, trying to decide which one is better is simply illogical. As I stated in my previous post, that's just my point of view.

Oh wait, I need to explain everything in detail otherwise you'll say that my way of expressing things "sucks". I chose the 3rd option which states "I can't decide between them, they're of the same importance imo."

If you can't get my point of view now, I'll use your own words: "this poll sucks"
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin

Gonzvlo wrote:

So, do you wanna kill your mom or dad?, Will you rip your right or your left eye?

This poll is just silly.
True, it's NOT a logical thing for sure. Like "which finger do you use to start streams?", "do you love your mother more or love your father more?" , they're not logical polls. In fact if a thing can be solved logically why do we even need a poll...? If i start a poll saying "1+1=?", I'm just a silly guy for sure, this is not off-topic forum. But a poll like this could actually show people's preference about the main idea of mapping, this is logical.

However, your analogy is not LOGICAL. As i know, it's really weird to discuss "which things you don't like?" questions in a forum because it simply leads to flames. And your analogy is just that. If you don't want to bring flames, (consider about your behaviors before i'd like to think you don't mean to), why bring such words here?
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
IMO, the map's flow should be established first, and then a good structure should be made within that flow.

The map should definitely have good structure, but if the map plays poorly, then there's no real point in having the map have good structure in the first place.

Ex. There's an often-used pattern where you have two sliders, and they're symmetrical via the vertical line. Then, there's a hit circle in-between those two sliders. If done correctly - ex. it has consistent spacing and good flow - then it's fun. However, what often happens is that it's done in a way that results in a big jump and then an anti-jump, and this usually doesn't play that well to me. It's putting symmetry ahead of flow.

So, I'd say that while the map should have good structure, the flow is a bit more important.
Gonzvlo
osu! Alumni
2,896 posts
Joined January 2010
Gonzvlo
NatsumeRin

NatsumeRin wrote:

Gonzvlo wrote:

So, do you wanna kill your mom or dad?, Will you rip your right or your left eye?

This poll is just silly.
True, it's NOT a logical thing for sure. Like "which finger do you use to start streams?", "do you love your mother more or love your father more?" , they're not logical polls. In fact if a thing can be solved logically why do we even need a poll...? If i start a poll saying "1+1=?", I'm just a silly guy for sure, this is not off-topic forum. But a poll like this could actually show people's preference about the main idea of mapping, this is logical.

However, your analogy is not LOGICAL. As i know, it's really weird to discuss "which things you don't like?" questions in a forum because it simply leads to flames. And your analogy is just that. If you don't want to bring flames, (consider about your behaviors before i'd like to think you don't mean to), why bring such words here?
First of all, sorry if I didn't used the right words. I've already explained what I meant to say with that "analogy" so bringing that up again it's not necessary at all.

You've already said it, threads like this one will simply bring flames. Actually, most of the threads you discuss-in always end up in a flame. I'm not pretending to attack you or anything, just think about it.

Now, about me "trying to bring flames". I don't, I've never did and I never will.
If you quote only half of my posts, of course it will look like a flame post. I clearly stated why I think that the poll is "silly", and most importantly at the end of the post I stated that what I'm saying is just my opinion.

If you think that I used the word "silly" to attack you, I'm sorry, I never tried to do that. I was pretty sure that "silly" was the right word to express my feelings towards the poll without harming the creator of the thread.

Nothing else to say, you may continue with your poll, sir.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin
SPOILER
You've already said it, threads like this one will simply bring flames.
"Which/who is the best" is always acceptable, "Which/who is the worst" is unappreciated. The poll belongs to the former, your analogy belongs to the latter.

Actually, most of the threads you discuss-in always end up in a flame. I'm not pretending to attack you or anything, just think about it.

I don't really mind. You could check those thread and see why it happens, and you could also check who is the real flamer, good luck.
Sure
4,220 posts
Joined February 2009
Sure

Glass wrote:

both
Yeah, I blend both styles. :D
Lizbeth
osu! Alumni
1,731 posts
Joined August 2008
Lizbeth

Ekaru wrote:

IMO, the map's flow should be established first, and then a good structure should be made within that flow.

The map should definitely have good structure, but if the map plays poorly, then there's no real point in having the map have good structure in the first place.

Ex. There's an often-used pattern where you have two sliders, and they're symmetrical via the vertical line. Then, there's a hit circle in-between those two sliders. If done correctly - ex. it has consistent spacing and good flow - then it's fun. However, what often happens is that it's done in a way that results in a big jump and then an anti-jump, and this usually doesn't play that well to me. It's putting symmetry ahead of flow.

So, I'd say that while the map should have good structure, the flow is a bit more important.
I think exactly the same. This is a rhythm game so is obvious that first of all, you have to follow the music while placing objects. If structure messed up with the flow, I'll give priority to the flow of course. But I also gonna add that a lot of structured maps have good flow, and lot of non-structured map have bad flow, so basically depends on the mappers skills to make a good map that flow with the music, either structured and non-structured.
Equivalent_old
210 posts
Joined October 2010
Equivalent_old
I, somehow felt in the middle of this crisis ._.
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