sakuraburst - forest of the spirits

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_handholding
Coming in hot with another shitpost

Mir wrote:

what if you're aiming for fc and you miss when the song gets good?
:Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand: :Ok_hand:
Zetera
I was just wondering whether you need to map the beginning as well, or at least cut it.

At its current state, the map starts at 36.4% and ends at 90.9%, meaning that you are missing out on 45.6% of the song (not accounting for breaks). In other words: You only mapped 54.4%, which is below the 80% rule. I know, you don't have to account for the intro if you leave less than 20% of the outro, but isn't this example kind of stretching it?

First of all, you do have the option to have the mp3 cut, but you used storyboard elements in the beginning instead. Now, if these elements were especially emphatic, I wouldn't mind that at all, but all I see is a fade-in, which you could have also done at your last unmapped/unstoryboarded bookmark of the intro. You could've used a water surface ripple and the fade-in over here and would've been able to cut the beginning.
Secondly, you had the option to map the intro via sliderart and a couple of 1/1 circles. If you asked me, I think that'd be a great addition to your map, since it would contrast your Kiai just as well as or even better than using nothing in the beginning. Feels like you missed out on an opportunity there.

Obviously, you could just go with what you have, apply the 20% outro rule thing and you'd be good to go. But for me, this is a little underwhelming.

I really like the kiai atmosphere though!


Edit: Guess this was already deliberated on, but I felt like throwing in my 2c as well, because I feel like you have better options that still maintain that important contrast.
Kurai
So no one is going to mention that the SB load goes beyond 11,00x during the kiai when the SB is actually pretty basic?

nostar.png is above 5MB and bgbaw.png 1,75MB. Why are those even .png files since there is no transparency? You could significantly reduce their filesize by converting them to .jpg

The gap between Normal and Hard is a bit too huge in my opinion. It's obvious just by looking at the object density of both difficulties: http://up.kuraip.net/0811z4E386h2516.png

[Easy]
  1. 01:42:883 (9,1) - Pretty weird spacing.


[Hard]
  1. 01:33:528 (3,4,1,2,3) - Highly inappropriate for a Hard difficulty. Patterns should be easily sightreadable and overlaps like these are to be avoided.
  2. 01:35:625 (2,3,4,5,1,2,3) - ^
  3. 01:38:205 (2,3,4,1) - ^
  4. 01:45:947 (2,5) - ^
  5. 01:51:431 (3,4,5,1) - ^
  6. 02:30:947 (1,2,3) - ^
  7. 02:34:979 (2,1,3) - ^
  8. 02:38:689 (1,3) - ^
  9. 02:39:979 (1,2,1,2) - ^
  10. 02:41:270 (1,2,1,2) - ^
  11. etc


I've got no time for a full mod atm, but if it ever gets DQ'd, I'll do a proper one. I believe it should at least for the SB load and those huge files.
Irreversible
Yo

After checking the mentioned issues, I'll take it down mainly for the SB concerns as well as the concerns on the hard difficulty.
please try your best to optimize it as the following:

mp3
Well, I do see that leaving so much of the mp3 blank is unfortunate but after Okorin's confirmation, it does suit the new rules

sb
- line.png can certainly be optimized by having single lines which appear throughout the sb instead of just having one big picture which booms the sbload like that. Changing this, it also makes you able to customize the lines better (as now it really has barely an effect imo).
- Kurai suggested .png -> .jpg for pictures which don't have transparency, which is true and lowers the filesize

hard
I've checked the concerns about this difficulty and I do agree that this is not suitable like in it's current state. The amount of stacks and overlaps is not appropriate for this difficulty and should thus be toned down.

01:41:270 - Also make sure to check this rhythm, as it seems off to what the song actually offers http://puu.sh/x7KIq/e347a35877.jpg

I have some additional concerns which I'll post later, as I'm heading offline soon

If you have questions, approach me ingame.
Topic Starter
Shiirn
Alright, renaming Hard to Light Insane, should work fine. Due to how the music itself is structured you're not going to very easily go from a Normal-ish to a Hard-ish difficulty due to the fact that the simple overarching melody the Easy and Normal use is 2/1 and 1/1, while every other melody in the track is 1/2 - you're going to almost double the object density unless you're arbitrarily consistent about which of the 1/2 spam tones you ignore - in other words, making up your own "in-between" melody which is its own kettle of ugly fish.


Will contact jako for SB concerns.

I'm fully aware that the mp3 as it sits is perfectly rankable. Deal with it =P


All ya'll "can't read overlaps" weaksauce players are really hampering my style; just because some of you guys can't read patterns to save your life and are used to pattern-based whack-a-mole doesn't mean it isn't perfectly functional for the rest of the players; they just don't speak up and bitch about it (because they're having fun FCing).
Mitkoff
Since it was dq.
@Mir
03:07:721 (4,5,6) - Can You please NotLikeThis?
Topic Starter
Shiirn

Zetera wrote:

I was just wondering whether you need to map the beginning as well, or at least cut it.

At its current state, the map starts at 36.4% and ends at 90.9%, meaning that you are missing out on 45.6% of the song (not accounting for breaks). In other words: You only mapped 54.4%, which is below the 80% rule. I know, you don't have to account for the intro if you leave less than 20% of the outro, but isn't this example kind of stretching it?

First of all, you do have the option to have the mp3 cut, but you used storyboard elements in the beginning instead. Now, if these elements were especially emphatic, I wouldn't mind that at all, but all I see is a fade-in, which you could have also done at your last unmapped/unstoryboarded bookmark of the intro. You could've used a water surface ripple and the fade-in over here and would've been able to cut the beginning.
Secondly, you had the option to map the intro via sliderart and a couple of 1/1 circles. If you asked me, I think that'd be a great addition to your map, since it would contrast your Kiai just as well as or even better than using nothing in the beginning. Feels like you missed out on an opportunity there.

Obviously, you could just go with what you have, apply the 20% outro rule thing and you'd be good to go. But for me, this is a little underwhelming.

I really like the kiai atmosphere though!


Edit: Guess this was already deliberated on, but I felt like throwing in my 2c as well, because I feel like you have better options that still maintain that important contrast.
To address "issues" over not mapping the introductory sequence:


The entire point, I feel, of forest of the spirits, is that it is about contrasting the calm with the storm. The track does this very well with methodical, neat instrumental tones in the first 1:30, leading into a sharp, but clean, set of 1/2 tone pitches - in essence, you're going from "serene" to "calm". In an ideal world, I would map all three sections of this track - The serene intro, the methodical middle, and calamitous end - and have my GDers do the same.

Unforunately, this is also a game. This is meant to be played. As Zetera so helpfully put it, over 40% of the track is dedicated to building up a calm atmosphere. That's fine for music. Not so much for a game, especially one as combo-focused as this one, and especially for higher difficulties.

I thought about this long and hard. I did not choose to not map the intro because I, or my GDers, are lazy, but because it would be unfair to players.

There would not be a single paradigm shift, or a massive diff spike, per difficulty, where I wanted it (From sequence, to chorus), there would be two. And if a player messes up even once, they're honor-bound to start over from the beginning because anything but an FC isn't worth jack fucking shit in this game.

As such, I made an executive decision to start from almost halfway - where the action really begins - to avoid player's memories of this map not being "that fucking boring ass intro sequence".


If you want an example of a map made ignoring whether it would be fair to a player or their involvement, go play my cherry blossoms explode. Not this map.
Jakomo73

Kurai wrote:

So no one is going to mention that the SB load goes beyond 11,00x during the kiai when the SB is actually pretty basic? tbh SB load doesn't mean too much. It is this big because there are lots of overlapping mist sprites which are all scaled to be 1.33x sb load. The real performance issues come when there are many sprites. A good example of this can be seen in pretty much any complex SB. Also, there are maps with SB loads higher than that ranked (https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1114962). However, I am cropping the mist files as much as possible and taking up Irre's suggestion with line.png

nostar.png is above 5MB and bgbaw.png 1,75MB. Why are those even .png files since there is no transparency? You could significantly reduce their filesize by converting them to .jpg Yep, my bad
Ovoui
Will you add another hard diff ? Because i don't think the spread is ok atm. The gap between normal and light insane is too big.
Voli

Ovoui wrote:

Will you add another hard diff ? Because i don't think the spread is ok atm. The gap between normal and light insane is too big.
agreed
_handholding
@mun I think the density of your hard is a bit too high in the beginning in some places. It can sometimes get higher than your kiai even though it's relatively calm. Just my quick opinion.

@Shiirn <removed>
Mir

Mitkoff wrote:

Since it was dq.
@Mir
03:07:721 (4,5,6) - Can You please NotLikeThis?
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TitleUnicode:forest of the spirits
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Ovoui

Shiirn wrote:

I would be glad if you could make one, then.
Ok no problem, you should take your responsability soon...


(btw you should relax man, it's just a game)
Mitkoff
@Mir <3
Nao Tomori
lmk if u decide to go again
Net0

Kurai wrote:

[Easy]
  1. 01:42:883 (9,1) - Pretty weird spacing.Well not something major but since it was DQ I might as well improve it! Thanks Kurai, more consistent 1,0x now.

Kisses wrote:

Net0 joining in on the circlejerk :Ok_hand:
?????????????????????????????????????????
Do you have a problem with me? First you started cancer flame on my map thread, then you decided to shit on disqus, now here? Bro you're not, by any means, obligated to like my maps or agree with anything I say, but can you stop saying saying unecessary things wherever I go? This thread is for Shiirn's mapset improvement, not personal attack. Keep it clean pls.

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Title:forest of the spirits
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Tags:blood orange mikasaserket net0 mir mun mecha dubstep dance electronic ambient glitch noise pretty soundfont York
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Arrival
pls guys :(
Mun

Kurai wrote:

So no one is going to mention that the SB load goes beyond 11,00x during the kiai when the SB is actually pretty basic?

nostar.png is above 5MB and bgbaw.png 1,75MB. Why are those even .png files since there is no transparency? You could significantly reduce their filesize by converting them to .jpg

The gap between Normal and Hard is a bit too huge in my opinion. It's obvious just by looking at the object density of both difficulties: http://up.kuraip.net/0811z4E386h2516.png

[Hard]
  1. 01:33:528 (3,4,1,2,3) - Highly inappropriate for a Hard difficulty. Patterns should be easily sightreadable and overlaps like these are to be avoided.
  2. 01:35:625 (2,3,4,5,1,2,3) - ^
  3. 01:38:205 (2,3,4,1) - ^
  4. 01:45:947 (2,5) - ^
  5. 01:51:431 (3,4,5,1) - ^
  6. 02:30:947 (1,2,3) - ^
  7. 02:34:979 (2,1,3) - ^
  8. 02:38:689 (1,3) - ^
  9. 02:39:979 (1,2,1,2) - ^
  10. 02:41:270 (1,2,1,2) - ^
  11. etc
lol

I've got no time for a full mod atm, but if it ever gets DQ'd, I'll do a proper one. I believe it should at least for the SB load and those huge files.

Irreversible wrote:

Yo

hard
I've checked the concerns about this difficulty and I do agree that this is not suitable like in it's current state. The amount of stacks and overlaps is not appropriate for this difficulty and should thus be toned down.

01:41:270 - Also make sure to check this rhythm, as it seems off to what the song actually offers http://puu.sh/x7KIq/e347a35877.jpg Fixed!
Let's talk a little bit about lower difficulties and spread, and the damage that the current "standards" for such lower difficulties have dealt to the playerbase. For the purposes of this current controversy, I will be singling out Hard diffs.

Mappers hate this difficulty level. On every level, from new to ancient, you can see that mappers simply refuse to map low diffs for the player - Hard is no exception. The needs of the playerbase are met on almost no level at all. The requirements for Hard difficulties seem to completely contradict the purpose of making them in the first place. Due to the hatred for creativity and variety in Hard difficulties, those on the skill level that play them are left entirely bereft of engaging and interesting maps.

The problem you seem to have is that the map is too hard to read. For whatever reason, Hard diff players must have the observational and pattern-recognition skills of a baked potato, and we must cater to their tragic incompetence! It is a terribly unfortunate condition, that players must be subjected to these painstakingly generic, slightly more challenging Normal difficulties that are, for whatever reason, labeled as “Hard.” It seems almost patronizing.

The overlaps on my map are perfectly readable. They are fairly systematic, all completely visible, and follow the song. Hard difficulty players are not idiots, they are somewhat newer to the game than most of us mappers. In making these slightly denser Normal difficulties and calling them Hard diffs, we are providing them training in their aim and their speed - and absolutely nothing else. This map has been denounced for its diversity, for the fact that it challenges new things and makes players learn new skills.

Isn’t that what this difficulty level is for, though? A Hard difficulty should be in a fairly “linear” spread, but when every spread is basically ENNI, where does the player get the skills to read and play that Insane? Just aim and speed aren’t nearly enough, but when that’s all that Hard diffs can safely be said to challenge, aren’t these spreads fairly counter-intuitive? Hard difficulties should be Insane minus the stress, not denser Normals.

All that someone who faithfully plays modern maps on difficulties made for their level can go on to do is play more difficult versions of that same map - perpetuated in the massive amounts of attention accumulated by simple, basic, easily readable TV-size jump maps. In making these standards what they are, you are forcing players to basically become dependent upon these maps that the poorly received BN tier split hoped to cull.

In conclusion, why would you reject this map, rather than the uncreative, thoughtless maps that have flooded this difficulty level? I consider this to be a step in the right direction, not the wrong one. This player level needs introduction to more interesting, diverse maps on their level, and we can’t achieve that by forcing them to play the same thing repeatedly.

tl;dr: Hard diffs should never have been made into the generic mess that they are today. This map challenging something other than aim is not a reason for concern, the fact that you think it is is quite indicative of how much you care about the people who are actually going to play the map.

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418,214,178609,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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72,205,179899,1,0,1:0:0:0:
72,205,179979,2,0,B|71:264|71:264|51:324,1,116.999996429443,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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200,278,180625,70,0,P|200:219|203:161,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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302,116,181109,1,2,0:0:0:0:
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200,278,181592,2,0,P|202:324|199:371,1,77.999997619629,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
320,371,181915,6,0,B|379:360|379:360|435:363,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
454,374,182238,1,0,0:0:0:0:
501,302,182399,1,0,0:0:0:0:
439,242,182560,2,0,P|442:200|440:157,1,77.999997619629,8|0,1:2|1:0,0:0:0:0:
384,98,182883,2,0,P|381:56|383:13,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
441,165,183205,6,0,B|382:172|382:172|292:153,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
311,154,183528,1,0,0:0:0:0:
328,245,183689,1,2,0:0:0:0:
288,329,183850,2,0,P|250:331|196:329,1,77.999997619629,8|2,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
150,255,184173,2,0,B|93:250|93:250|22:270,1,116.999996429443,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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150,255,185302,1,2,3:2:0:0:
38,192,185463,1,8,1:0:0:0:
263,182,185786,6,0,B|275:242|275:242|259:308,1,116.999996429443,4|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
250,313,186109,1,0,0:0:0:0:
336,348,186270,1,2,0:0:0:0:
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316,153,187076,6,0,B|258:163|258:163|186:152,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
192,143,187399,1,0,0:0:0:0:
230,57,187560,1,2,0:0:0:0:
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109,309,188931,1,0,0:0:0:0:
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271,351,189334,2,0,L|352:353,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
417,288,189657,6,0,B|450:219|450:219|431:121,1,155.999995239258,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
401,52,190141,1,0,1:0:0:0:
401,52,190221,1,0,1:0:0:0:
401,52,190302,2,0,B|340:58|340:58|269:46,1,116.999996429443,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
269,56,190625,2,0,L|267:148,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
253,226,190947,6,0,B|261:288|261:288|242:353,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
227,341,191270,1,0,0:0:0:0:
146,294,191431,1,2,0:0:0:0:
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284,36,192721,1,2,0:0:0:0:
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360,98,193528,6,0,B|421:100|421:100|479:117,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
487,128,193850,1,0,0:0:0:0:
424,198,194012,1,2,0:0:0:0:
467,280,194173,2,0,L|470:362,1,77.999997619629,8|2,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
424,198,194496,2,0,B|368:188|368:188|279:201,1,116.999996429443,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
294,205,194818,6,0,L|297:300,1,77.999997619629,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
355,108,195141,2,0,L|352:30,1,77.999997619629,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
246,141,195463,1,8,1:0:0:0:
424,198,195625,1,0,1:0:0:0:
424,198,196109,70,0,B|433:258|433:258|425:322,1,116.999996429443,4|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
421,331,196431,1,0,0:0:0:0:
330,308,196592,1,2,0:0:0:0:
251,359,196754,2,0,B|212:354|212:354|162:359,1,77.999997619629,8|2,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
106,292,197076,2,0,B|67:297|67:297|17:292,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
196,266,197399,6,0,B|187:207|187:207|201:136,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
211,136,197721,1,0,0:0:0:0:
133,82,197883,1,2,0:0:0:0:
305,108,198044,2,0,B|345:113|345:113|385:108,1,77.999997619629,8|0,1:2|1:0,0:0:0:0:
285,19,198367,2,0,B|245:14|245:14|205:19,1,77.999997619629,2|2,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
283,125,198689,6,0,B|344:132|344:132|406:123,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
414,115,199012,1,0,0:0:0:0:
470,189,199173,1,2,0:0:0:0:
470,189,199254,1,0,0:0:0:0:
470,189,199334,2,0,B|476:228|476:228|470:288,1,77.999997619629,8|2,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
387,307,199657,2,0,B|381:346|381:346|387:406,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
499,300,199979,70,0,B|512:223|512:223|483:139,1,155.999995239258,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
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409,202,200544,1,0,1:0:0:0:
409,202,200625,2,0,B|351:207|351:207|285:197,1,116.999996429443,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
274,201,200947,2,0,B|268:240|268:240|275:311,1,77.999997619629,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
353,130,201270,6,0,B|358:72|358:72|348:6,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
344,0,201592,1,0,0:0:0:0:
262,46,201754,1,2,0:0:0:0:
172,20,201915,2,0,B|132:26|132:26|90:20,1,77.999997619629,8|0,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
194,110,202238,2,0,B|204:169|204:169|189:231,1,116.999996429443,2|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
182,243,202560,6,0,B|177:283|177:283|181:337,1,77.999997619629,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
313,330,202883,2,0,B|318:290|318:290|314:236,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
254,126,203205,1,8,1:2:0:0:
344,150,203367,1,0,1:0:0:0:
250,147,203528,2,0,B|211:147|211:147|152:134,1,77.999997619629,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
85,106,203850,70,0,B|88:170|88:170|68:237,1,116.999996429443,0|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
65,238,204173,2,0,B|111:232|111:232|166:243,1,90.9999972229005,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
235,292,204496,2,0,B|291:306|291:306|371:298,1,116.999996429443,8|0,1:2|0:0,0:0:0:0:
373,293,204818,2,0,B|369:339|369:339|380:384,1,90.9999972229005,0|0,0:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
455,222,205141,5,0,1:0:0:0:
455,222,205463,1,0,1:0:0:0:
455,222,205786,2,0,P|442:170|291:258,1,318.499990280152,8|0,1:0|0:0,0:0:0:0:
294,268,206431,21,4,1:2:0:0:
Net0

Mun wrote:

tl;dr: Hard diffs should never have been made into the generic mess that they are today. This map challenging something other than aim is not a reason for concern, the fact that you think it is is quite indicative of how much you care about the people who are actually going to play the map.
I think that beyond the point made by mun (which I agree) ,you guys are also not considering difficulty spread in the most appropriate way.
Difficulty spread related to osu! std COULD be simplified by spacing/rhythm intensity. It's also very typical that a lot of mappers create their beatmaps with this standards of creating; a basic rhythm/spacing interpretation of the song and from that point on they start to scale things. However this mapset is not that simple, there's a lot more concepts in terms of how the spread was done here. Beyond rhythm density and spacing, you can add to the spread here reading capacity and slider design difficulty (there's more ,but related to hard diff this two are worth giving more input).

If you check the progression of easy -> normal you will see that there was a 1/1 gapping understanding progressivelly done. While in my diff there was only 1 spot I could made a stack out of DS Mikasa did two more while still making it a regular normal diff. The same thing could be said about slider shapes, while in my diff there's basically 6 different shapes; 01:22:560 (1) - /01:27:721 (1) - /01:37:399 (8) - /01:38:044 (1) - /02:24:496 (1) - /02:43:850 (1) - , Mikasa did a lot more of variety introducing the idea of different sliders that will be presented in the later diffs.

From normal to hard there's the introduction of a new game aspect required from the player; reading capacity. I don't want to repeat Mun again, but it's done in a not very hard way and makes sense, especially if you guys consider that the reading skill required in hard will be fully used and more explored on Mir's Insane. You see, the overlapping pattern on Mun's diff was done on the very start of the map basically because of the lower rhythm density and his other reasoning, since doing it on kiai would make it a lot harder than it needs. That's why Mir Insane develops even more that concept on the chorus, meaning that the player will be fully experienced with different slider shapes and reading skills in order to play the top diff.

tl;dr: Hard diff makes sense if you consider spread a mapping term that goes beyond spacing/rhythm density and actually look into the mapset concepts applied.
Lasse
hard is cute, would hate to see it changed just for the sake of "better readability"

nothing wrong with making things a bit more complex to read at this difficulty level and it's still far from "hard" to read.
all patterns are pretty clear if you pay some attention when playing instead of mindlessly throwing your cursor around

let me know if you need help getting this requalified in case the other bn won't be allowed to icon again due to whatever dq/veto/disagreement stuff
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