2017-04-24 16:39 -B L u R-: Hello! I requested mod the other day and you told me to PM you in-game
2017-04-24 16:39 Mun: Ah, right. The reason for that is because it's easier to explain specific concepts understandably through IRC
2017-04-24 16:39 -B L u R-: Ahaa
2017-04-24 16:40 -B L u R-: Do you copy the modding from here to the topic?
2017-04-24 16:40 Mun: Nah, that's a waste of time, though if you think it'd be useful then I can.
2017-04-24 16:41 -B L u R-: Yeah but how will I give kudosu?
2017-04-24 16:41 Mun: no need lol
2017-04-24 16:41 -B L u R-: Okay I want you to copy it over to the topic then :)
2017-04-24 16:42 Mun: aight
2017-04-24 16:42 Mun: so there are a few really important things to go over
2017-04-24 16:42 Mun: here's a list of what I'll talk about, in order:
2017-04-24 16:42 Mun: 1) Slider consistency
2017-04-24 16:42 Mun: 2) Flow
2017-04-24 16:42 Mun: 3) Structure
2017-04-24 16:42 Mun: 4) Streams
2017-04-24 16:43 Mun: btw I love metalcore
2017-04-24 16:43 -B L u R-: Same
2017-04-24 16:43 Mun: oh and 5) the player's perspective
2017-04-24 16:43 Mun: ok so first let's talk about slider consistency.
2017-04-24 16:44 Mun: Give me a brief summary of your logic behind slider placement so I know where to start.
2017-04-24 16:44 -B L u R-: Alright
2017-04-24 16:45 -B L u R-: When you say slider consistency, I think of having similar sliders for similar sections and sounds, and also relate the placement of them to sounds as well
2017-04-24 16:45 -B L u R-: Though the last part might just apply to circles as well now that I think about it
2017-04-24 16:45 Mun: That's definitely a good way to paraphrase that, but that is very vague. It's good that you have that basis of understanding, and it's a great starting point.
2017-04-24 16:46 Mun: Slider consistency goes through quite a few things and is pretty much the entire spiel on "how to make sliders fit into your map."
2017-04-24 16:46 -B L u R-: Ah, something along the lines of sliders looking like the sounds they're representing?
2017-04-24 16:47 Mun: Not really, actually.
2017-04-24 16:47 Mun: The furthest along most people get with that is representing the complexity of a sound, rather than the sound itself.
2017-04-24 16:47 Mun: So let's start with the aesthetic principles of sliders.
2017-04-24 16:48 Mun: Tell me, which of these 2 sliders do you think generally looks nicer? http://puu.sh/vv0d3/8e2a8dc5cb.jpg
2017-04-24 16:49 -B L u R-: 1
2017-04-24 16:49 Mun: Definitely agreed.
2017-04-24 16:49 Mun: There are a few reasons for this.
2017-04-24 16:49 Mun: One is the way that sliderbodies are rendered in the game itself.
2017-04-24 16:49 Mun: Really short sliders like this with very sharp curves render in such a way that you can see that they really don't look round at all.
2017-04-24 16:50 -B L u R-: Yeah just looks like a blob
2017-04-24 16:50 Mun: This makes such short, sharply curved sliders impractical - they just look fundamentally wrong.
2017-04-24 16:51 Mun: The second thing is simplicity: simpler slider shapes often are not only more practical, but also more attractive.
2017-04-24 16:51 Mun: That's why making such heavy-handed corners tends to look bad.
2017-04-24 16:52 Mun: However, this is one very simple example slider.
2017-04-24 16:53 Mun: Here is a set of relatively simple sliders that I use quite often. http://puu.sh/vv0uM/55be7b745f.jpg
2017-04-24 16:54 Mun: How good they look in a section depends on how you've established them - sliders that are straight or have sharp corners often don't work in sections of curved sliders
2017-04-24 16:55 Mun: though there are some special cases in which they do, that is entirely subjective.
2017-04-24 16:55 -B L u R-: Yeah, well I kinda locked myself in somewhat. When I started making the map I went "These sections should have sharp sliders and those should have smooth sliders"
2017-04-24 16:55 Mun: That can work very well, too.
2017-04-24 16:56 -B L u R-: But I might've went too sharp
2017-04-24 16:56 Mun: However, the execution of those sliders is also extremely important.
2017-04-24 16:56 Mun: When a slider has a sharp corner, that usually does not go too far outside its regular path, unless there is some unusual sound being represented.
2017-04-24 16:58 Mun: The green sliders here are going to work much better than the red sliders, while having a similar effect. http://puu.sh/vv0Ma/dd0f34f137.jpg
2017-04-24 16:59 Mun: Most of the generic sliders that you use for most of the sounds in a song are going to be some variation of a straight slider, and play like one too.
2017-04-24 16:59 -B L u R-: Ah I see, they give the same feeling of a sharp slider, while still looking good
2017-04-24 16:59 Mun: This is why making angles too sharp or making curves too tight negatively affects both aesthetics and gameplay.
2017-04-24 17:00 Mun: Right. In some cases, you may want to go for something that looks rougher or is more difficult to play
2017-04-24 17:00 -B L u R-: But used sparingly I guess, especially in this map
2017-04-24 17:00 Mun: but invoking these sorts of responses in the player is sort of "breaking the rules," and before breaking them, you should make sure you're familiar with all of them.
2017-04-24 17:00 Mun: This way, you can use them in moderation to produce the effect you want.
2017-04-24 17:00 Mun: The next part of slider consistency is angle.
2017-04-24 17:01 Mun: Going to a random ranked map:
2017-04-24 17:01 Mun: ACTION is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/861180 Ensiferum - March of War / Axe of Judgement [Relentless Brutality]]
2017-04-24 17:01 -B L u R-: Ah that is a good map
2017-04-24 17:02 Mun: It is. Check it out in the editor.
2017-04-24 17:02 Mun: Let's head to, say, 01:48:058 - 
2017-04-24 17:02 Mun: This starts a section with a decent number of sliders.
2017-04-24 17:03 Mun: Do you notice anything particular about the sliders here?
2017-04-24 17:04 -B L u R-: They're similarily shaped to the next combo
2017-04-24 17:04 -B L u R-: Wait
2017-04-24 17:04 -B L u R-: They're creating a triangle pattern
2017-04-24 17:04 Mun: That's definitely one of the important parts: all of the sliders are so close to a single root (generic straight sliders) that they are all very similar and transition well into other shapes.
2017-04-24 17:05 Mun: And the pattern is one of the things I was indeed pointing out here.
2017-04-24 17:05 Mun: The pattern is the exception to one technique most mappers use:
2017-04-24 17:05 Mun: 01:49:421 (5,6,9,10,1) - 01:51:330 (1) - All of these sliders are close to vertical.
2017-04-24 17:05 Mun: 01:51:876 (4,5,1,4) - And all of these are close to horizontal.
2017-04-24 17:06 Mun: Most current maps make these generic sliders around horizontal and vertical.
2017-04-24 17:07 Mun: By making relatively simple, close to straight, close to horizontal/vertical sliders, it becomes easy to transition between shapes while retaining consistency. 
2017-04-24 17:07 -B L u R-: Whoa I never noticed how good they can look even if the slider end isn't pointing towards next note
2017-04-24 17:08 Mun: Right. That's another important thing, but I am going to leave that for just a bit later.
2017-04-24 17:08 Mun: So to sum up slider consistency in a few short sentences:
2017-04-24 17:12 -B L u R-: Should I sum it up?
2017-04-24 17:13 Mun: went afk for a moment oops lol
2017-04-24 17:13 -B L u R-: Oh lol, I thought you were waiting for me after a while
2017-04-24 17:13 Mun: Sliders, when representing sounds that are very often repeated in the music, usually work best when they retain similar shapes to each other, a couple of consistent angles (horizontal/vertical), and do not suddenly or harshly deviate.
2017-04-24 17:14 Mun: There are of course exceptions to this rule: that triangle that you pointed out is one of them. When making a noticeable pattern like that slider triangle, angles used can be different.
2017-04-24 17:14 Mun: so yeah there you have slider consistency
2017-04-24 17:14 -B L u R-: Got it
2017-04-24 17:15 Mun: You mentioned sliders pointing towards notes
2017-04-24 17:15 Mun: and that works as a good segue into our next topic: flow.
2017-04-24 17:15 Mun: I'll be back in a moment.
2017-04-24 17:15 -B L u R-: Yeah, I don't know why I got so set on that. I thought it was hard to blanket if you had to point to the note as well
2017-04-24 17:15 -B L u R-: Alright
2017-04-24 17:18 Mun: Flow can be defined very, very simply.
2017-04-24 17:18 Mun: It is just the movement of the player between objects.
2017-04-24 17:18 Mun: There are subsets of this, though.
2017-04-24 17:19 Mun: For example, linear flow is straight movement between 2 or more objects, like this http://puu.sh/vv22k/5ebfd1b4c4.jpg
2017-04-24 17:19 Mun: It is usually a type of motion that prevents the player snapping.
2017-04-24 17:20 Mun: snapping being the method by which most players aim, by moving rapidly from one note to the next and countering all of that motion to stop and click the note.
2017-04-24 17:21 Mun: Zig zag flow is conducive to snapping: it is just a constant reversal of motion, like so http://puu.sh/vv27N/9df061075a.jpg
2017-04-24 17:21 -B L u R-: So from note 2 in that picture, it wouldn't be any different than it being a circle on the end and the 3rd note going the other direction?
2017-04-24 17:21 Mun: Explain.
2017-04-24 17:23 -B L u R-: The first picture you sent right now. 1 and 2 are sliders, and 3 is a circle. If the 3rd note was on the left side instead, it would feel comfortable to play. As comfortable as if the second note could have been a circle.
2017-04-24 17:23 Mun: Well yes, but we're not yet going to judge what motion is "comfortable" and what is not.
2017-04-24 17:23 Mun: Every type of movement accommodates a different style of play, though all styles of play are applicable to all motion.
2017-04-24 17:24 Mun: Finally, we have the fundamental, most important type of flow: circular flow. This one is the most complex to explain.
2017-04-24 17:24 -B L u R-: I know it
2017-04-24 17:25 -B L u R-: Watched a lot of pishifat video
2017-04-24 17:25 Mun: Circular flow is important because the player's hand has a natural tendency to move in a circle.
2017-04-24 17:25 Mun: Yeah, I expected you to know what it is
2017-04-24 17:25 Mun: but it takes something to really get a feel for it.
2017-04-24 17:26 Mun: http://puu.sh/vv2lg/82c2dd0aea.jpg This, for example, is circular flow, but so is http://puu.sh/vv2pS/0c734dce2f.jpg
2017-04-24 17:26 Mun: and they play very differently, but I'll leave my explanations of the concept at that - you already know your stuff.
2017-04-24 17:27 Mun: Where this ties into slider consistency, then, is the flow properties of sliders.
2017-04-24 17:27 -B L u R-: Yeah, I think I got that one
2017-04-24 17:27 Mun: Do you know how sliders flow?
2017-04-24 17:28 -B L u R-: Ehh, implied direction you mean?
2017-04-24 17:28 Mun: Implied direction is just one factor.
2017-04-24 17:29 -B L u R-: They follow flow the same way as circles just held?
2017-04-24 17:29 Mun: What I don't think you know
2017-04-24 17:29 Mun: is the concept of slider leniency.
2017-04-24 17:29 -B L u R-: 1/4 is like circle
2017-04-24 17:29 Mun: That is one effect of it.
2017-04-24 17:30 Mun: Slider leniency means a few things to slider gameplay.
2017-04-24 17:30 Mun: 1) In order to score a 300, when first tapping a slider, the player can hit it at any point in the hit window - not just in the 300 zone.
2017-04-24 17:30 -B L u R-: You don't have to follow slider completely?
2017-04-24 17:30 Mun: This means if the player clicks a slider waaaaay early, they still get full accuracy.
2017-04-24 17:30 -B L u R-: Ah yeah, until score v2
2017-04-24 17:31 Mun: 2) A slider ends around 35 milliseconds before it actually ends.
2017-04-24 17:31 -B L u R-: I heard that but too scared to try
2017-04-24 17:31 Mun: Well it's hardly a noticeable difference.
2017-04-24 17:32 Mun: 3) The player can go anywhere around the slider as long as it is within http://puu.sh/vv2Lc/f5407ed264.jpg this bright green ball.
2017-04-24 17:32 -B L u R-: Too scared to try incorporating it in my map at leasty
2017-04-24 17:32 Mun: This means that a player can start a somewhat short slider and not really follow it at all, but still score full points on it.
2017-04-24 17:33 Mun: That is why http://puu.sh/vv2OB/63f55167a2.jpg and http://puu.sh/vv2Pj/c196fcd110.jpg flow in pretty much exactly the same way.
2017-04-24 17:33 Mun: It's circular, and both play that way, but one pattern is made strictly to accommodate it, while the other just uses it as a tool to improve the playing of the pattern.
2017-04-24 17:34 Mun: Both are entirely valid, but if you follow too strictly like in that 2nd one, you are giving yourself more difficulties and burdens than you need in order to make something with strong circular flow.
2017-04-24 17:36 -B L u R-: So the second one is more fitting for a difficult pattern? Or when should it be used?
2017-04-24 17:36 -B L u R-: Wait second one?
2017-04-24 17:36 -B L u R-: Do you mean the straight sliders?
2017-04-24 17:37 Mun: The second one means the sharp curves that point directly into each other
2017-04-24 17:37 Mun: My honest answer: patterns like that 2nd one honestly suck lol
2017-04-24 17:37 -B L u R-: Oh, is it more difficult to make strong circular flow because it is too lenient, and therefore too comfortable?
2017-04-24 17:38 -B L u R-: Or too lenient, and doesn't require much from the player
2017-04-24 17:38 Mun: Both images I sent play in almost exactly the same way.
2017-04-24 17:38 Mun: The problem with making patterns like 2 is that you are restricting your own mapping to this rigid definition of flow
2017-04-24 17:39 Mun: when really you can just use that first pattern for the same effect while allowing yourself so much more creative freedom.
2017-04-24 17:39 -B L u R-: Oh, so that second one is the kinds of flow I've mostly used?
2017-04-24 17:39 Mun: You use it a lot in the map, yes.
2017-04-24 17:40 Mun: like 01:29:951 (1,2,3) - 
2017-04-24 17:40 Mun: 01:31:601 (5) - and whatever this is supposed to be lol
2017-04-24 17:40 Mun: 01:40:751 (2,3) - 
2017-04-24 17:40 Mun: 01:43:001 (1,2) - 
2017-04-24 17:40 -B L u R-: feelsbadman
2017-04-24 17:41 Mun: well it's more feelsbadman when you go through your mapping career without ever figuring these things out LOL
2017-04-24 17:41 Mun: So basically, your sliders don't need to point at anything
2017-04-24 17:41 -B L u R-: hahaha, yes I do appreciate you telling me now
2017-04-24 17:41 -B L u R-: Man I thought I was just making good patterns for once,,,
2017-04-24 17:41 Mun: If you need to get a bit of insight on how it plays, then just following the notes in the editor with your cursor in a circular pattern
2017-04-24 17:42 -B L u R-: I do that a lot, but I never found out why it felt so bad most of the time,
2017-04-24 17:42 -B L u R-: I always thought something was off about my map
2017-04-24 17:42 -B L u R-: It didn't play like a ranked map
2017-04-24 17:43 Mun: Since we've just talked about flow
2017-04-24 17:43 Mun: I'm gonna leave structure and streams for later and jump to the player's perspective.
2017-04-24 17:43 -B L u R-: Alright
2017-04-24 17:44 Mun: also on the bright side
2017-04-24 17:44 you *are* on the way to making really cool patterns
2017-04-24 17:44 Mun: 01:33:401 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - i really like this
2017-04-24 17:44 -B L u R-: Ahh, that was one of the things I did recently
2017-04-24 17:44 Mun: In fact
2017-04-24 17:45 Mun: for this next topic
2017-04-24 17:45 Mun: let's start right after that, at 01:35:801 - 
2017-04-24 17:45 Mun: given that we've just talked about how the player moves between objects
2017-04-24 17:45 Mun: do you notice the issue your sliders cause in the map?
2017-04-24 17:46 Mun: or at least
2017-04-24 17:46 Mun: in this section
2017-04-24 17:46 -B L u R-: Their velocity is far greater than the movement between objects
2017-04-24 17:46 Mun: Exactly.
2017-04-24 17:46 Mun: This results in jarring motion and undue difficulty that does not follow the song well.
2017-04-24 17:47 Mun: The way that I like to keep track of this is to always keep distance snap at 1.0x or higher
2017-04-24 17:47 Mun: this way, the spacing between objects takes, at the very least, the movement taken on sliders.
2017-04-24 17:47 -B L u R-: I never had DS on for this map
2017-04-24 17:47 Mun: i noticed LOL
2017-04-24 17:48 -B L u R-: Might've been a mistake considering I'm fairly new
2017-04-24 17:48 Mun: DS can work well for a few things
2017-04-24 17:48 Mun: 1) familiarizing yourself with the ability to eyeball the spacing between objects
2017-04-24 17:48 Mun: 2) making patterns with consistent distance between objects
2017-04-24 17:49 Mun: as well as some other cool things.
2017-04-24 17:49 Mun: We'll also cover ds in streams
2017-04-24 17:50 -B L u R-: Okay
2017-04-24 17:50 Mun: Like, you can disable it for some objects, but making the distance between a sliderend and an object lower than 1.0x DS will create that jarring effect.
2017-04-24 17:50 Mun: It moves the player along quickly and stops them.
2017-04-24 17:50 -B L u R-: I see
2017-04-24 17:51 Mun: The only other thing that's very important in player's perspective for this map
2017-04-24 17:51 Mun: is stuff like 02:17:351 (4,1) - 
2017-04-24 17:51 Mun: followed by 02:17:651 (1,1) - 
2017-04-24 17:51 Mun: because the distance from 4 to 1 is about the same as the distance from 1 to 1
2017-04-24 17:52 Mun: but 4-1 is half the speed of 1-1
2017-04-24 17:53 Mun: this is a readability issue - this musical pattern is unfamiliar to the player, so representing it in a seemingly normal way presents a reading issue.
2017-04-24 17:53 -B L u R-: Twice the speed?
2017-04-24 17:53 Mun: no, the time from the end of 02:17:351 (4) - to the start of 1 is twice the time of taken by the end of 02:17:651 (1) - to the start of 02:18:101 (1) - 
2017-04-24 17:54 -B L u R-: Oh I see
2017-04-24 17:54 -B L u R-: 1/2 gap and 1/4 gap
2017-04-24 17:54 Mun: This presents reading difficulty (see pishifat's "difficulty spikes" video for an explanation of why this sort of reading challenge is difficult.
2017-04-24 17:55 -B L u R-: Yeeah, seen it more than once but it's not something I've thought about while mapping
2017-04-24 17:55 Mun: Anyway, that sort of issue is the only remaining problem in player's perspective
2017-04-24 17:55 -B L u R-: So I definitiviely get what you mean at least
2017-04-24 17:56 Mun: Ready to move on to the big thing that destroys this map, or want a bit more explanation on that front?
2017-04-24 17:56 -B L u R-: An explanation before you annhilate me would be nice
2017-04-24 17:56 -B L u R-: oh nvm
2017-04-24 17:56 -B L u R-: on to the next part
2017-04-24 17:57 Mun: Yeah, ha
2017-04-24 17:57 -B L u R-: guessing it's structure
2017-04-24 17:57 Mun: Yep.
2017-04-24 17:57 Mun: Structure is what makes and breaks maps.
2017-04-24 17:58 Mun: The reason why a map that may be fun to play isn't necessarily of acceptable quality.
2017-04-24 17:58 Mun: Structure is, more often than not, a buzzword.
2017-04-24 17:58 Mun: People just throw around "this is structured badly" and stupid garbage like that
2017-04-24 17:59 -B L u R-: Is it really map design? or patterning?
2017-04-24 17:59 Mun: In short: it's everything.
2017-04-24 17:59 Mun: It can be simplified to 3 rules:
2017-04-24 17:59 Mun: 1) patterning.
2017-04-24 17:59 Mun: This is probably most of where you fall short in this map.
2017-04-24 17:59 Mun: It's the placement of objects relative to other objects that can make shapes
2017-04-24 18:00 Mun: like Monstrata is renowned for his making of triangles
2017-04-24 18:00 -B L u R-: Yeah, I kinda figured myself, so I started working on another mapset where I really focus on the patters.
2017-04-24 18:00 Mun: You often won't find those sorts of patterns all put together in sequence
2017-04-24 18:01 Mun: when you do, you end up with
2017-04-24 18:01 Mun: ACTION is listening to [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/972401 uma - take a step forward]
2017-04-24 18:01 Mun: which is a good map, but damn hard
2017-04-24 18:02 -B L u R-: Yeah especially that slow part with monotone rhythm
2017-04-24 18:02 -B L u R-: Wait I opened an easy version
2017-04-24 18:02 Mun: Beyond patterning - 
2017-04-24 18:02 Mun: well no, take a look at the slow part of that
2017-04-24 18:02 Mun: it's just endless singletaps
2017-04-24 18:03 Mun: pentagons, squares, the whole shabang
2017-04-24 18:03 -B L u R-: Yeah,
2017-04-24 18:03 -B L u R-: Alternate for life though
2017-04-24 18:03 Mun: singletap is stronk
2017-04-24 18:03 Mun: rule 2: anchoring objects
2017-04-24 18:03 Mun: this is the one with a vague title.
2017-04-24 18:04 Mun: basically
2017-04-24 18:04 Mun: this is everything from making use of consistent visual distance (distance snap accomplishes this well) to blanketing objects
2017-04-24 18:05 -B L u R-: Aha
2017-04-24 18:05 Mun: Without this, you don't have a map, just randomly placed crap
2017-04-24 18:06 Mun: In your map: 03:34:151 (4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - stuff like this does not follow this rule of structure well.
2017-04-24 18:06 Mun: Most of your jumps look heavily freehanded: no patterning and highly variable spacing.
2017-04-24 18:06 -B L u R-: But emphasizing strong sounds with spacing and ignoring DS isn't a bad thing right?
2017-04-24 18:07 Mun: Of course, but spacing emphasis doesn't mean changing every single note's spacing (usually)
2017-04-24 18:07 Mun: Like, all of 02:27:401 (1,2,3,4) - are the same intensity
2017-04-24 18:07 -B L u R-: Yeah okay, the normal jumps in my map I applied 1-3-2-4 rhyyhm to
2017-04-24 18:07 Mun: and 02:28:001 (5) - is the strongest of all of them
2017-04-24 18:07 Mun: but has the lowest spacing
2017-04-24 18:08 Mun: so there's plenty of stuff in there that, by the standards of spacing emphasis, are frankly indefensible
2017-04-24 18:08 -B L u R-: I agree
2017-04-24 18:08 Mun: but in the same vein there is stuff like 02:43:001 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - that does it very well
2017-04-24 18:08 Mun: however
2017-04-24 18:08 Mun: relative to the rest of the section
2017-04-24 18:09 Mun: all the hits there are relatively strong but get low spacing compared to the rest of the section
2017-04-24 18:09 Mun: but beyond spacing emphasis
2017-04-24 18:09 Mun: the 3rd rule
2017-04-24 18:09 Mun: it's the simplest one and the easiest to follow:
2017-04-24 18:09 Mun: stacking.
2017-04-24 18:10 Mun: there are mappers like Lasse who might stack a dozen objects in the exact same spot over the course of 10 or 15 seconds.
2017-04-24 18:11 Mun: It's a way to anchor your patterns to certain positions, so they're both going off of the same platform
2017-04-24 18:12 -B L u R-: So like one edge of a triangle will always be in one spot for example?
2017-04-24 18:12 -B L u R-: for those triangles that follow
2017-04-24 18:12 Mun: Right, that's one way it is done.
2017-04-24 18:14 Mun: So that's the 3 facets of structure as they are commonly accepted
2017-04-24 18:14 -B L u R-: Anchor, patterning and structure
2017-04-24 18:14 -B L u R-: Got it
2017-04-24 18:14 Mun: Being able to utilize those to varying degrees (strictly following all 3 is the gateway to being super generic) will change the way people view your maps.
2017-04-24 18:14 Mun: Let's move on to the last point, one that is largely aesthetic - streams.
2017-04-24 18:15 Mun: To put it bluntly:
2017-04-24 18:15 -B L u R-: oops meant stacking not structure
2017-04-24 18:15 Mun: 01:54:401 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - hurts my soul on a primordial level.
2017-04-24 18:15 -B L u R-: LOL
2017-04-24 18:16 -B L u R-: I just didn't want to make an easy circular stream
2017-04-24 18:16 Mun: How did you make this stream?
2017-04-24 18:16 -B L u R-: 2 sliders
2017-04-24 18:16 Mun: ok protip
2017-04-24 18:16 Mun: do not use slider to stream
2017-04-24 18:16 Mun: it is 1) bad 2) cheating
2017-04-24 18:16 -B L u R-: but because it's so highly space they're not circular
2017-04-24 18:17 -B L u R-: whoa cheating
2017-04-24 18:17 Mun: (opinion)
2017-04-24 18:17 Mun: turn on distance snap and map it by hand, you will be much better at mapping streams if you do them that way
2017-04-24 18:17 Mun: besides, complex streams simply cannot be mapped with s2s
2017-04-24 18:17 Mun: it just doesn't work
2017-04-24 18:17 -B L u R-: oooh I never thought about using DS for stream
2017-04-24 18:17 -B L u R-: That's why I didn't think anyone did that
2017-04-24 18:17 Mun: it's the only thing most people use DS for
2017-04-24 18:18 -B L u R-: What you think about this stream though? 02:04:601 (1) -
2017-04-24 18:19 Mun: 5/10? 6/10 on a good day
2017-04-24 18:19 -B L u R-: haha damn
2017-04-24 18:19 Mun: its execution is good compared to the rest of the map.
2017-04-24 18:19 Mun: however, it is fundamentally flawed.
2017-04-24 18:19 Mun: But let's go back to the stream that i strongly dislike at 01:54:401 - 
2017-04-24 18:20 Mun: and let's discuss what's wrong with it.
2017-04-24 18:20 Mun: first: 01:54:401 (1,2,3,4,5) - the 4 is the sharp corner
2017-04-24 18:20 -B L u R-: alright
2017-04-24 18:20 Mun: and thus is the emphasized beat
2017-04-24 18:20 Mun: it's a blue tick
2017-04-24 18:20 -B L u R-: I thought it was 5 since that's where you cange direction
2017-04-24 18:21 Mun: The note on which you change direction is the corner
2017-04-24 18:21 Mun: While it is sometimes valid for people to emphasize by changing direction on the circle before them
2017-04-24 18:21 Mun: it is unconventional at best and objectively bad at worst.
2017-04-24 18:22 Mun: http://puu.sh/vv5G2/60f1ffd2cb.jpg Here's an example of how it would look if it were good
2017-04-24 18:23 Mun: direction changes on 01:54:701 (5) - and it keeps going in a tight circle
2017-04-24 18:23 Mun: making something of a corkscrew motion
2017-04-24 18:23 Mun: but as it is now
2017-04-24 18:23 -B L u R-: I kind of get it now, you sort of already change direction, and get reeady for it on the corner
2017-04-24 18:23 Mun: http://puu.sh/vv5JO/d4f2148a1f.jpg WHAT IS THIS
2017-04-24 18:23 Mun: THIS IS NOT HOW CURVE
2017-04-24 18:24 Mun: nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
2017-04-24 18:24 -B L u R-: haha, short sliders ;D
2017-04-24 18:24 -B L u R-: Yes I promise I will never use sliders to make streams again
2017-04-24 18:24 -B L u R-: It is a sin
2017-04-24 18:24 Mun: when making perfectly straight, short streams it is alright sometimes
2017-04-24 18:25 Mun: even then you could, in the same time, just click 5 times with ds on to make a straight stream
2017-04-24 18:25 Mun: Personally I just think it's a useless tool that impairs people's ability to make good, clean streams
2017-04-24 18:25 -B L u R-: hmm yeah
2017-04-24 18:25 Mun: no need for you to think the same but it's the devil
2017-04-24 18:26 Mun: It takes some experience
2017-04-24 18:26 -B L u R-: I see I see
2017-04-24 18:26 Mun: but with some stream time 
2017-04-24 18:26 Mun: you can make some relatively balanced curves.
2017-04-24 18:26 Mun: stuff like http://puu.sh/vv5T9/2f3cb9e119.jpg
2017-04-24 18:26 Mun: i made that by hand in like 2 seconds lol
2017-04-24 18:27 -B L u R-: Is it too ambiguous for such a short stream though?
2017-04-24 18:27 Mun: On to that stream you asked me about before
2017-04-24 18:28 Mun: o wait lol
2017-04-24 18:28 Mun: What do you mean, too ambiguous for such a short stream?
2017-04-24 18:28 -B L u R-: Like, 2 half circles and large spacing on 8 notes
2017-04-24 18:28 -B L u R-: 6.2 star map
2017-04-24 18:29 -B L u R-: Not supposed to be rough part anyway
2017-04-24 18:29 Mun: It shouldn't be hard to hit
2017-04-24 18:29 -B L u R-: The previous one was hard for me to hit at least
2017-04-24 18:29 Mun: slightly tighter circles and lower spacing (0.7x ds maybe?) would probably make it easier to aim
2017-04-24 18:29 Mun: reading shouldn't be an issue if it's rhythmicall solid
2017-04-24 18:29 Mun: rhythmically*
2017-04-24 18:30 -B L u R-: Though I never play and map on the same day so maybe just lack of warm-up
2017-04-24 18:30 Mun: lul
2017-04-24 18:30 Mun: So next let's cover 2 streams
2017-04-24 18:30 Mun: 1) 02:03:251 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15) - 
2017-04-24 18:31 -B L u R-: Blue tick again
2017-04-24 18:31 Mun: Starting at 02:03:251 (1,2,3) - : one useful idea
2017-04-24 18:31 Mun: is that when you map a stream that starts with a couple notes before a strong beat or a downbeat
2017-04-24 18:31 -B L u R-: low ds?
2017-04-24 18:32 Mun: yup, you can do something like http://puu.sh/vv6cA/ac6b441165.jpg
2017-04-24 18:32 -B L u R-: Something about you mentioning stuff makes me figure it out because I question myself
2017-04-24 18:33 -B L u R-: What makes sense
2017-04-24 18:33 Mun: Which is a good thing. It means you already have knowledge, you just need to learn to apply it
2017-04-24 18:34 -B L u R-: How long would you have spent mapping this song?
2017-04-24 18:35 Mun: considering it's about 5 minutes, if I really put my mind to it and didn't get distracted mapping other stuff and playing, I could get it done with around 10 hours of mapping
2017-04-24 18:35 Mun: so, 4-6 days
2017-04-24 18:35 Mun: if i map for a reasonable amount of time a day
2017-04-24 18:35 -B L u R-: Yeah, that's far quicker than me, and I didn't try to perfect most stuff
2017-04-24 18:36 Mun: http://puu.sh/vv6oS/b13b5dc9b4.jpg distance snap make pretty streams if you can freehand curves
2017-04-24 18:36 -B L u R-: well didn't really try to peerfect anything but oh well
2017-04-24 18:36 Mun: sliderart and long streams are basically the same, in that they are just sequential combinations of simpler ideas used in shorter sliders and streams
2017-04-24 18:37 -B L u R-: mhmm
2017-04-24 18:37 -B L u R-: Should nc be used in direction changes?
2017-04-24 18:37 Mun: I usually do
2017-04-24 18:37 Mun: it's not mandatory
2017-04-24 18:37 Mun: On spacing changes it is, though
2017-04-24 18:38 -B L u R-: okey
2017-04-24 18:38 Mun: On that really big deathstream, I'd say 02:05:126 (8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,1,2,3,4,5,6) - is one of the biggest conceptual flaws 
2017-04-24 18:39 Mun: because 02:05:501 (13) - is slightly sharper curve than the rest of the stream for no reason
2017-04-24 18:39 Mun: 02:05:726 (16,1) - the 15-16-1-2 movement diminishes the importance of the downbeat at 02:05:801 (1) - 
2017-04-24 18:39 Mun: 02:06:026 (4) - This is also a sharper curve for really no reason
2017-04-24 18:39 Mun: 02:06:401 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this part is good
2017-04-24 18:39 Mun: 02:07:001 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16) - I love the lowered spacing here tbh
2017-04-24 18:39 -B L u R-: He says heart at that point
2017-04-24 18:40 Mun: 02:08:801 (9) - changing spacing here is meh
2017-04-24 18:40 Mun: also I don't think implying cute heart shapes fits well into this super edgy metalcore
2017-04-24 18:40 -B L u R-: haha
2017-04-24 18:40 Mun: no at this point it's more like death metal
2017-04-24 18:41 -B L u R-: I didn't know how to design the streams so I went with heart
2017-04-24 18:41 Mun: 02:09:626 (4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,1) - Questionable execution but I like the idea of the circle here
2017-04-24 18:41 Mun: 02:10:526 (16,1) - Strongest downbeat emphasis in the whole stream, but in the song it really isn't that strong so it doesn't fit
2017-04-24 18:42 Mun: 02:11:126 (8,1) - no
2017-04-24 18:42 -B L u R-: :(
2017-04-24 18:43 Mun: 02:11:801 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16) - When making these waves, keep your angle changes consistent rather than having them accumulate in very tight curves at the peaks
2017-04-24 18:43 Mun: 02:13:601 (9) - very anticlimactic way to end the stream
2017-04-24 18:44 -B L u R-: Some guy told me to use a slow slider there for playability
2017-04-24 18:44 Mun: that some guy happens to be an idiot
2017-04-24 18:45 -B L u R-: haha
2017-04-24 18:45 Mun: for one, streams function like sliders
2017-04-24 18:45 Mun: in the sense that they force movement
2017-04-24 18:45 Mun: forcing high rate of movement and then cancelling that all
2017-04-24 18:45 Mun: 1) not fun
2017-04-24 18:45 Mun: 2) uncomfortable
2017-04-24 18:45 Mun: 3) feels forced
2017-04-24 18:45 Mun: even crossmap jumps would fit better
2017-04-24 18:46 -B L u R-: lol
2017-04-24 18:46 -B L u R-: http://puu.sh/vv6WE/7d98c8a0dd.png This better?
2017-04-24 18:47 Mun: actually, yeah.
2017-04-24 18:47 Mun: It contradicts the implied circular flow, but still seems like it'd play fine
2017-04-24 18:48 -B L u R-: It's a very different sound there, so I think it fits well
2017-04-24 18:48 Mun: yeah, I'm good with thatr
2017-04-24 18:50 Mun: well
2017-04-24 18:50 Mun: with that, I have covered everything I was hoping to cover!
2017-04-24 18:50 Mun: If there's anything you think needs clearing up, feel free to ask
2017-04-24 18:50 Mun: and I will answer to the best of my ability.
2017-04-24 18:50 -B L u R-: Thank you so much for this, this has opened my eyes to a lot. I will prove it to you, just wait.
2017-04-24 18:51 Mun: Disclaimer: everything stated here has been stated within the capacity of my own mapping ideals and style so it's not as if what i'm telling you is 100% fact, but in mapping, it's a blurry line.
2017-04-24 18:51 -B L u R-: And I'mma mod your maps in the future when I'm capable
2017-04-24 18:51 -B L u R-: You explained basic mapping very well
2017-04-24 18:51 Mun: no need for that. Only way I want you to pay me back is by making good use of the information I've given
2017-04-24 18:51 -B L u R-: And told me what I needed
2017-04-24 18:52 -B L u R-: I will for sure
2017-04-24 18:53 -B L u R-: But now I'm going to bed, it is already too late for me but it was worth it. Again thank you so much, I will try my best from now on. Good night
2017-04-24 18:53 Mun: ahaha, sorry for keeping you.
2017-04-24 18:53 Mun: Goodnight, and good luck :D