This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.---------------
BAT #1: Cyclone
BAT #2: Mogsworth
BAT #1: Cyclone
BAT #2: Mogsworth
That's the word, "I." =/ Let's discuss.Mogsworth wrote:
-00:47:23 (6) - Since you're syncing to the lyrics, this shouldn't be here. Same thing with all of the patterns like this (like 01:06:58 (6), 01:41:42 (6), 02:27:86 (5)). Space it out properly once you remove this beat
Yeah, that's a carry-over from when there was only one difficulty. Thinking of emphasis more than lyrics here. For some reason, it just feels wrong having that extra note in the first of each pair. I'm adding them to the second of each pair for now.Silvuh wrote:
00:15:78 (1): The first circle should be moved 1/4 a beat to the left, because that's where the lyric is.
00:16:27 (2-3): I think a circle here on "we're" would be a good addition... I mean, there are parts where you step lyrics harder, so I can't think of a reason why this lyric shouldn't be stepped.
Thinking in terms of making it harder. And it feels right IMO. Keeping for now.Silvuh wrote:
00:44:33 (5): There's no lyric on this circle here. Doesn't sound like there's even a drum beat here. Just pointing that out, 'cause that may make you want to remove it..
I'm not strictly covering the lyrics, and it feels more appropriate to keep it going to the end of the drum line than to just have nothingness there. Or I could replace it with a more complicated stream, as I did on a few of the later occurrences. Keeping for now.Silvuh wrote:
00:48:44 (11): The lyric "wrong" stops before the slider stops. It may make more sense to have them stop at the same time. Either that or stop it at the 1/1 after it stops on the same guitar sound it stops at now. I realize that you have the slider covering that little breakdown, or whatever they're called, but they aren't lyrics. If you want to map to the guitar and drums here, you should do so in other places, too.
This is mainly because phrase markers have constant lengths. I wanted to put something there, and there's a strong drumbeat at that point as well. You'll see this at other points in the song, too, where I was forced into some odd patterns by phrase markers. There also seems to be a bit of an emphasis in the vocals there, too, despite being in the middle of a word. Keeping for now.Silvuh wrote:
00:54:00 (2): The slider starting at the "ng" sound of "going" feels a little weird. Maybe just leave it as a circle on "gone".
We are coming back from a break, and the word, "too," is the beginning of the next musical phrase. "and" is the last word of the musical phrase we had our break on. Keeping for now.Silvuh wrote:
01:05:49 (>1): There's a quick lyric "and" 1/4 before the first circle on "then", so you could put a circle there, too.
Kind of trickier to keep beatspacing here, but will give it a go.Silvuh wrote:
01:10:45, 01:12:39. 01:18:19, 01:20:13. "we're" and "to".
I'm not hearing it that way.Silvuh wrote:
01:52:06 (2): The "I" lyric is a 1/4 before this beat, so the circle should be moved to the left on the time line.
The other odd phrase marker pattern I was speaking of. I kind of envisioned a single rebounding phrase marker with a longer duration on the rebound, which is impossible. I tried snapping 1/8th and splitting the difference, but it sounded odd. Replacing it with something different. My new version has a spare note in each of these sets, but it feels wrong if I leave it empty.Silvuh wrote:
Also, right after this, it's odd how the slider for "won't" ends when the lyric ends, and the next slider starts at "sit" and ends on "back". Just seems odd for consistency. In my mind, it would be better to have all three words be seperate sliders here or make it a repeating slider like you do with the lyrics right after.
Again, not the way I'm hearing it. "Was," "would," "just," "be," all sound to be equally spaced, but only on this occurrence of the phrase.Silvuh wrote:
02:00:89 (7): The repeating slider feels weird here. There's no lyric on the first repeat. "Would" is a 1/4 to the right of where the repeat is. One option would be to have a slider from "Was" to "would" and a second separate slider from "just" to "be".
Take a look at (1) the other place you said was the "only" place where I covered the drums, and the stuff following the break.Silvuh wrote:
02:01:98: Because you step a breakdown here, maybe it would make more sense to step guitar and drums in more places than you do now..
Now you get it!Silvuh wrote:
Oh, wow, and after the break there, there's a whole section that goes to guitar...
I like my rebounding sliders! I might change if enough people want it that way.Silvuh wrote:
02:12:50 (4): There are four guitar notes on that slider, but the last note is a 1/4 to the right of where the slider ends. I suggest separating this in to two sliders not only so you can get on the fourth note but to put a whistle/finish on the second slider where there are more sounds layered in the song.
Trying to have fun with different patterns to keep everything interesting. Since it's Hard, I might throw back in some of these notes.Silvuh wrote:
02:16:13, 02:18:06 (1<): A 1/4 after the slider ends, there's another guitar note. This is the same sound as the beginning of this section, and the extra note was placed there, so it's also an inconsistency issue.
Same as above. Might change.Silvuh wrote:
02:19:88, 2:21:93 (2). There's no guitar sound at the end of the slider, so I think the end should be moved one 1/4 to the left where there is.
Drums.Silvuh wrote:
02:23:27 (2,3): I have no idea what the extra notes in this stack are going to.
It is going with the same drum pattern from above.Silvuh wrote:
02:23:99 (6): This circle doesn't have the same guitar sound as the first two notes in the stack, so it should be moved out of the stack.
Again, that's not how I'm hearing it.Silvuh wrote:
02:40:44 (2): The lyric "I" is 1/4 to the left from this circle on the time line.
If you're thinking of emphasis more than lyrics, then the second circle should be on "we're" instead of "think", because there's no drum hit on "think" (and there is on "we're"), and the guitar sound is just the same on the two words. I don't see why any pair feels more "wrong" than another, 'cause they're all the same.MetalMario201 wrote:
Yeah, that's a carry-over from when there was only one difficulty. Thinking of emphasis more than lyrics here. For some reason, it just feels wrong having that extra note in the first of each pair. I'm adding them to the second of each pair for now.
There is no sound at that note. It shouldn't be there. If you want to make it harder, add circles between lyrics where there actually are sounds.MetalMario201 wrote:
Thinking in terms of making it harder. And it feels right IMO. Keeping for now.
Yeah, I never said you couldn't place circles after the slider ended for the drum line. Lyrics aren't drums, so it was different holding a slider that covers multiple subjects.MetalMario201 wrote:
I'm not strictly covering the lyrics, and it feels more appropriate to keep it going to the end of the drum line than to just have nothingness there. Or I could replace it with a more complicated stream, as I did on a few of the later occurrences. Keeping for now.
Phrase markers? You mean the lengths of the sliders? Phrase markers always have constant lengths. And, what, did I say to put nothing there? No... And there's nothing wrong with sliders with different lengths if they're more accurate. There may be a bit of an emphasis on the "ng", but that's just like saying there's emphasis on several guitar notes you didn't put circles to.MetalMario201 wrote:
This is mainly because phrase markers have constant lengths. I wanted to put something there, and there's a strong drumbeat at that point as well. You'll see this at other points in the song, too, where I was forced into some odd patterns by phrase markers. There also seems to be a bit of an emphasis in the vocals there, too, despite being in the middle of a word. Keeping for now.
That sounds nonsensical.MetalMario201 wrote:
We are coming back from a break, and the word, "too," is the beginning of the next musical phrase. "and" is the last word of the musical phrase we had our break on. Keeping for now.
How is it tricky? It's just a note equally spaced between the (2) and (3).MetalMario201 wrote:
Kind of trickier to keep beatspacing here, but will give it a go.
Well that's odd, because there is no way that "I" is not on the 1/4. You should be able to tell even on 100%. The "And I" is obviously faster than the "I won't".MetalMario201 wrote:
I'm not hearing it that way.Silvuh wrote:
01:52:06 (2): The "I" lyric is a 1/4 before this beat, so the circle should be moved to the left on the time line.
Eww, spare notes. I thought I said that if you want to step the drum, you should step the drum in more places. If you want to have the spare circle (4) on that drum sound, then place a circle between the two combos right where where the drum sound repeats. Do that or remove the spare notes. It makes more sense that way. This goes for all the spare notes.MetalMario201 wrote:
The other odd phrase marker pattern I was speaking of. I kind of envisioned a single rebounding phrase marker with a longer duration on the rebound, which is impossible. I tried snapping 1/8th and splitting the difference, but it sounded odd. Replacing it with something different. My new version has a spare note in each of these sets, but it feels wrong if I leave it empty.
I can hear how the distance between "was" and "would" is longer than the distance between "just" and "be" on 100% speed. It's move obvious on 50%. If you can't hear how "would" is later on 50%, then, well... then, that's not a good thing.MetalMario201 wrote:
Again, not the way I'm hearing it. "Was," "would," "just," "be," all sound to be equally spaced, but only on this occurrence of the phrase.
I never said it was the only place. I said "now". Not "only". And I was commenting as I go.MetalMario201 wrote:
Take a look at (1) the other place you said was the "only" place where I covered the drums, and the stuff following the break.
Get what? That you put circles to the guitar? I noticed that the first moment I saw that section. Of course you put circles to the guitar there. The only thing doing this would make me "get" is why you did put notes to guitar in several other places (which you didn't). I don't understand how I can "get" how you aren't doing something in a place where you are.MetalMario201 wrote:
Now you get it!
You shouldn't like something that's incorrect. People want it changed because it's not correct how it is.MetalMario201 wrote:
I like my rebounding sliders! I might change if enough people want it that way.
I never knew forgetting to put circles at certain places like this could be "interesting". Why does "interesting" have to conflict with good consistency?MetalMario201 wrote:
Trying to have fun with different patterns to keep everything interesting. Since it's Hard, I might throw back in some of these notes.
Drums? Really? because I only hear those on the (1) and (3) of that stack.MetalMario201 wrote:
Drums.Silvuh wrote:
02:23:27 (2,3): I have no idea what the extra notes in this stack are going to.
What? Even the drum sound at the circle I mentioned is different than the last two. (Also, this drum pattern here didn't occur at the beginning in the "above". The circle should be moved.MetalMario201 wrote:
It is going with the same drum pattern from above.
Again, it's how I heard it. I hear it on 50%. I hear it on 100%. Why don't you hear it how it is?MetalMario201 wrote:
Again, that's not how I'm hearing it.Silvuh wrote:
02:40:44 (2): The lyric "I" is 1/4 to the left from this circle on the time line.
Personal preference. Changed anyway.Silvuh wrote:
If you're thinking of emphasis more than lyrics, then the second circle should be on "we're" instead of "think", because there's no drum hit on "think" (and there is on "we're"), and the guitar sound is just the same on the two words. I don't see why any pair feels more "wrong" than another, 'cause they're all the same.
Changed.Silvuh wrote:
There is no sound at that note. It shouldn't be there. If you want to make it harder, add circles between lyrics where there actually are sounds.
Not sure what you're saying.MetalMario201 wrote:
Yeah, I never said you couldn't place circles after the slider ended for the drum line. Lyrics aren't drums, so it was different holding a slider that covers multiple subjects.
It's impossible to find every one of them. It's basically a matter of artistic interpretation, and we disagree. Changed anyway.Silvuh wrote:
Phrase markers? You mean the lengths of the sliders? Phrase markers always have constant lengths. And, what, did I say to put nothing there? No... And there's nothing wrong with sliders with different lengths if they're more accurate. There may be a bit of an emphasis on the "ng", but that's just like saying there's emphasis on several guitar notes you didn't put circles to.
Typo. Meant to say, "to." Can be argued both ways. Already changed.Silvuh wrote:
That sounds nonsensical.
The last line of the break is I've got one foot out the doorAnd then continues with and to go back to where I was...
I don't see the word "too" in there anywhere. It doesn't make sense for the lyric lines to be split like "out the door and" "to go back" when the "and" is much closer to the "then". I still think the circle should be placed there.
Had to move around all the notes to keep to the time-distance rule, but it's already been done.Silvuh wrote:
How is it tricky? It's just a note equally spaced between the (2) and (3).
It's ambiguous. He's still on a closed syllabic 'n' at the 1/4. Changed anyway.Silvuh wrote:
Well that's odd, because there is no way that "I" is not on the 1/4. You should be able to tell even on 100%. The "And I" is obviously faster than the "I won't".
Redone in a different way. Again, it's impossible to catch every chance to throw in a note on a drumbeat, so I just do the ones that I can easily hear and fit.Silvuh wrote:
Eww, spare notes. I thought I said that if you want to step the drum, you should step the drum in more places. If you want to have the spare circle (4) on that drum sound, then place a circle between the two combos right where where the drum sound repeats. Do that or remove the spare notes. It makes more sense that way. This goes for all the spare notes.
Correction: it's ambiguous on 50%. He stylizes his vocals a lot and there ends up being room for interpretation.Silvuh wrote:
I can hear how the distance between "was" and "would" is longer than the distance between "just" and "be" on 100% speed. It's move obvious on 50%. If you can't hear how "would" is later on 50%, then, well... then, that's not a good thing.
You still seem to be holding me to some strict, all-or-nothing rule, which is infeasible. Putting in every spare guitar riff or drum thing would make things very cluttered, overmapped, and hard to follow. I tried to put them in where they wouldn't conflict with anything else. Again, mapping is not an exact science.Silvuh wrote:
I never said it was the only place. I said "now". Not "only". And I was commenting as I go.
Explained in the previous quote response. And that was a friendly poke.Silvuh wrote:
Get what? That you put circles to the guitar? I noticed that the first moment I saw that section. Of course you put circles to the guitar there. The only thing doing this would make me "get" is why you did put notes to guitar in several other places (which you didn't). I don't understand how I can "get" how you aren't doing something in a place where you are.
I didn't know there was a "right" way and a "wrong" way to do everything. There are guidelines, and I've strived to follow them. I was playing around, throwing in counter-rhythms to make it more difficult and interesting. Changed anyway.Silvuh wrote:
You shouldn't like something that's incorrect. People want it changed because it's not correct how it is.
See response to above quote. Changed anyway.Silvuh wrote:
I never knew forgetting to put circles at certain places like this could be "interesting". Why does "interesting" have to conflict with good consistency?
Okay, I hear that. Will change.Silvuh wrote:
Drums? Really? because I only hear those on the (1) and (3) of that stack.
This beat (2:23'99) does have a stronger attack than the other two on the stack, but they're close enough and I wanted to spare the player's hand a bit.Silvuh wrote:
What? Even the drum sound at the circle I mentioned is different than the last two. (Also, this drum pattern here didn't occur at the beginning in the "above". The circle should be moved.
That was rude. I've explained how it's ambiguous, and it's been changed, besides.Silvuh wrote:
Again, it's how I heard it. I hear it on 50%. I hear it on 100%. Why don't you hear it how it is?
And it wasn't very pleasant reading my map being picked apart in the most arcane aspects, and every attempt to throw in some artistic flair or variation being shot down. It's only natural for one to get defensive. I responded to every comment that seemed to have any relevance and did my best to justify what I was doing.Silvuh wrote:
Sorry if I sounded mean, but it wasn't very pleasing reading almost all the comments I spent a while working on being ignored.
Stylization. And it's a gliss into the downbeat which has the emphasis. And I don't want to rape my countdown by moving it to an offbeat.Silvuh wrote:
00:15:78 (1): The "I" sound is a 1/4 earlier than the circle.
Okay. That seems to fill the gap well. Done here and in the repeats. Thanks.Silvuh wrote:
01:52:54 (3): If you put a circle to the drum sound here, you should put a circle to the same drum sound at 01:53:51.
Explained.Silvuh wrote:
02:00:89 (7): This slider is still weird.
Okay, fair. Removed. Spaced.Silvuh wrote:
02:23:39 (2): I still think this circle doesn't go to anything.
It's very difficult to keep the time-distance rule when separating them, and I wouldn't consider it all that significant an issue.Silvuh wrote:
02:23:99 (6): The guitar and the drum sound at this circle is different. Still, should be moved.
Each of these notes have been given a "partner" note at the following drumbeat. It's too empty without them.Silvuh wrote:
02:40:92 (3): Sluff notes again; same with 01:52:54 (sluff, fluff. I use them as a term to mean "extraneous" or "should be discarded".)
Same ambiguous lyric spacing.Silvuh wrote:
02:49:27 (7) Same weird slider.
The ng-sliders have been replaced already. The wrong-sliders (lol) could be replaced with a good number of circles to go with the drums, but I wanted to give the player a bit of a rest after that stream.Silvuh wrote:
Those are the only things I found now. I still think the "ng" sliders and the sliders past the "wrongs" are funny, but that's just my preference.
Horizontally flipping from the blue combo on. That makes the spacing a bit too wide, but I doubt it'll confuse anyone.Mogsworth wrote:
Easy:
-00:19:89 - Spacing issue, too close to the previous beat.
Fixed. Still imperfect, but shouldn't confuse anyone. On such a slow difficulty, it's hard to keep everything on the screen while adhering perfectly to the spacing rule, since the spaces have to be so huuge.Mogsworth wrote:
-00:24:25 - This may be an easy map, but still, spacing inconsistency from the last beat to here.
Itsy bitsy difference here. ._. Fixed. (I'd have been more concerned with how it was too close to 0:29'57, which is also fixed. )Mogsworth wrote:
-00:27:64 - This is spaced a bit too close to the previous beat.
That's actually where Distance Snap puts it on Grid Level 2. Moving the note back by a 1/4 divisor puts it to where you suggest.Mogsworth wrote:
-00:49:89 (4, 5) - Spacing. Also, I feel like the 5 is off by one tick in the 1/4 divisor. Like, move it one tick to the left in that divisor. The same goes for all of the times the word "On" is said.
Because it's Easy?Mogsworth wrote:
-00:50:86 - Why is there no beat here?
Again, I've seen the official guys do this. And there's a difference between a song being easy for someone who's played rhythm games (especially Ouendan and derivatives on higher difficulties) and a complete beginner. The complete beginner is going to be counting like, "1, 2, 3, 4," in their head, trying to tap on time, and there's nothing like offbeats to foil them up!Mogsworth wrote:
-00:55:70 - Here, either?
-Add beats at the two previous times and space them properly. Two beats and some offbeat patterns that sync with the lyrics aren't going to make this no longer easy, it's still easy, trust me. :3
Tricky. Especially since moving them any closer together will partially obstruct that blue phrase marker that runs between. An eyesore I'd rather not have, especially on Easy. Will try to figure something out.Mogsworth wrote:
-01:09:61 - This is on the offbeat I previously mentioned. Also, space it so either this is further away from the next beat or the next beat is further away from it. Still, properly space it.
That's actually the first time I've used this pattern. Yeah, it's boring; one huge arched phrase marker looks like the next. Maybe I'll change it to something like straight quarters or something.Mogsworth wrote:
-01:26:18 - Using the same slider patterns over and over and the same shapes as before may be consistent, but in this, it looks lazy. Make them a bit more...interesting, so the patterns don't bore people.
Mogsworth wrote:
-02:11:65 - Straight sliders and the occasional curved one, try to make it more interesting. Not complex, but change up the slider shapes every now and then.
Will do.Mogsworth wrote:
-02:42:13 (2) - I don't feel like this beat should be here.
Big finale? Sounds like a good idea.Mogsworth wrote:
-02:48:42 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) - Make this more interesting, since it's a copy/paste of the previous one.
Explained this earlier. On an easy level, it seems more fair to almost "synch to the metronome" at times. If I were to synch, I'd want to do something like at 1:58'59 and use a phrase marker whose end is synched to the vocals, so that even if the player doesn't catch it, no mistake is counted. I still think this is reasonable on the easiest difficulty. Let's discuss further.Mogsworth wrote:
-02:52:29 (5) - Another "on" to move back, then properly space. Sorry if this seems tedious, but even easy maps should be properly synced, right?
I'm not replying to most spacing comments because they're all being fixed and just take up, uh, space!Mogsworth wrote:
Normal:
-Essentially, spacing issues.
They are the exact same size on all difficulties. The drain rate and "overall difficulty" are all that vary.Mogsworth wrote:
-Is it me, or are the beats bigger in Normal than Easy?
The default, 0.8, actually. 0.9 (or even 1) seems to make more sense, so I'll be using it from now on. Most of this is hand spaced, besides, due to the need to fudge some spacing by small amounts and to center my phrase markers on the screen.Mogsworth wrote:
-00:17:72 (1, 2, 3) - I'm assuming that you're using 0.9x distance snapping, since that works well for the first three beats. Stay within these boundaries when spacing. So, highlight this entire phrase, click on the first beat of said phrase, and move it with Distance Snapping on. Voila. And the next beat is perfectly spaced!
This is one of my fudge points. Reorienting the phrase markers further up (but not straight vertical, booring!) seems to fix it, though I still have to fudge 3 by one grid square. (level 3)Mogsworth wrote:
-00:20:86 (2) - Space, space, space.
It's already spaced. (Maybe you fixed the above problem a different way?) And I like the 4 where it is. xPMogsworth wrote:
-00:21:83 (3, 4, 5, 6, 7) - Space this. Also, move the 4 up a little bit so it looks better. :3
Grid Level 2 strikes again. Respaced according to Grid Level 3.Mogsworth wrote:
-00:23:52 (1, 2, 3) - Space. Evenly space the next 3 beats, as well.
Grid level 2, yadda, yadda...Mogsworth wrote:
-00:29:33 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) - Space, it's only a small amount.
These are already spaced! Fixed the blue set of 3.Mogsworth wrote:
-01:09:97 (1, 2, 3) - Highlight then distance spacing. Same thing for the next set of 3.
I dragged 1:19'64 (1) on its own, and it conveniently stacked on top of 1:19'89 (2). Leaving it there.Mogsworth wrote:
-01:17:81 (1, 2, 3) - Highlight, then distance spacing. Same for the next set of 3, except with the next part, you might have to make the slider curve in the opposite direction...
A single note, in this case, does not catapult the difficulty from Easy to Normal. It makes it actually fit. And there are more difficult parts of the map, anyways. Just add the notes, it doesn't catapult the difficulty in any way.MetalMario201 wrote:
Because it's Easy?
The thing is, though, just because the official games straighten out syncopations doesn't make it alright for you to do it. I mean, look at Ouendan's beatspacing. Some of it is downright horrendous. If we mapped everything like the songs in Ouendan, we'd have no concept of proper beatspacing. Some things change to make things make more sense.MetalMario201 wrote:
On a more general basis, it's quite common in the official games to straighten out syncopations and leave out notes on the Easy levels to make them more, well, easy. This is what I've been trying to do here.
Most of the general Osu! populous isn't like that. And even for the ones that are, they'll recognize the pattern right away after playing that pattern once.MetalMario201 wrote:
Again, I've seen the official guys do this. And there's a difference between a song being easy for someone who's played rhythm games (especially Ouendan and derivatives on higher difficulties) and a complete beginner. The complete beginner is going to be counting like, "1, 2, 3, 4," in their head, trying to tap on time, and there's nothing like offbeats to foil them up!
Adding and moving anyway, I guess.
Move the blue phrase marker, then.MetalMario201 wrote:
Tricky. Especially since moving them any closer together will partially obstruct that blue phrase marker that runs between. An eyesore I'd rather not have, especially on Easy. Will try to figure something out.
Keep the sliders, but just change the shapes so it at least has some variety.MetalMario201 wrote:
That's actually the first time I've used this pattern. Yeah, it's boring; one huge arched phrase marker looks like the next. Maybe I'll change it to something like straight quarters or something.
Syncing to the vocals is your best option, so why not do that? And besides, I think that a simple rhythm is still very fair game on an easy difficulty. Remember that this is osu!, NOT Ouendan. We don't have to constantly dumb things down to "1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, SL-I-D-ER". Easy difficulties are allowed to have variety and offbeats, as long as they're, well, easy. This is a very easy to recognize offbeat, so keep it in all of the other cases, since you want to do the slider syncing to the vocals. Also remember that usually, fans of the artist whose song you mapped will go for this map right away, and if they're new, they'll play Easy, and they'll definitely recognize the offbeat.MetalMario201 wrote:
Explained this earlier. On an easy level, it seems more fair to almost "synch to the metronome" at times. If I were to synch, I'd want to do something like at 1:58'59 and use a phrase marker whose end is synched to the vocals, so that even if the player doesn't catch it, no mistake is counted. I still think this is reasonable on the easiest difficulty. Let's discuss further.