JesusYamato wrote:

Don't forget some players play with mods only.

Yeah I know you love HR

Actually, I think it can be dealt with. If beatmaps would get a rating for each mods combination that have been played, it would just make the rating of mods players a bit slower as every map wouldn't be rated easily.

_Void_ wrote:

The problem that I see is that there are some maps that are really, really easy to beat but have one stupid pattern where even good players can easily miss.

You've got a point. In my original post I said S-rank = win and A-rank = lose to makes things easier, but as you said it could use accuracy as well. And while the ELO rating system is limited to win/draw/lose, it's possible to detect whether the player is a clear winner/loser or not. The rating update could be weight accordingly.

Anongos and Cirno wrote:

[...]

okay then, I’ll try to be a bit more specific about how the algorithm works, but it might look a bit weird as I am not used writing math stuff in English.

First, one of the key point of the ELO rating is that it produces ratings that looks like what’s called a Gaussian or normal distribution (here’s one). In the image I linked the curve is centered on 0 and values above 4 or below -4 are rare. In chess, ELO ratings looks the same, but the curve is centered around 1200 (it’s the ELO rating of an average player), and values above 2500 ELO are rare (grandmasters).

The point is in chess, strategy game or whatever, there is always a large majority of average players, and a few exceptions (extremely bad or good). If look at the IQ of a population, you will get the same kind of distribution (centered around ~100, with few people above 130 or below 70). Well, I was trying to say that gaussian distributions are everywhere, not only in ELO ratings.

Enough theory, here’s an example: let’s suppose we start a rating similar to chess game in osu!

Step 1: all players and beatmaps are given 1200 ELO. It’s a “provisional rating” that will change really fast in the first games.

Step 2: First games are played. When a map is beaten, the player rating increase and the map rating decrease, as I said in the original post. After a few games (it’s really fast actually) and ratings updates, ratings distribution will look like the Gaussian distribution I linked you. The players skill will be approximately known, as well as beatmaps difficulty.

Step 3: When players whose skill is known play against beatmaps whose difficulty is known, the ratings are still updated, but at a slower pace.

Now, ratings are set.

A new map is ranked! What happens?

- The beatmap is assigned 1200 ELO. It will also be a “provisional rating”. In the first games played on this map, the map rating will increase/decrease faster than usual, but the established players ratings won’t be increased or decreased (it would lead to what Cirno described).

- When the beatmap difficulty is approximately known (it would be really fast for new ranked map as only ~20 play are needed), its rating will be set to “established”. From now, players rating will be updated when they play this map.

A new players appears! What happens ?

It’s the same than beatmaps actually. As long as the player’s skill rating isn’t established, the rating of beatmaps he/she plays on won’t be increased or decreased.

Shiirn wrote:

Long story short:
There are too many aspects to osu! gameplay to quantify "skill" in a single rating system, and even if you COULD simplify them as such, there would be no efficient way to organize or base those ratings against other players.

Yeah, obviously skill cannot be perfectly represented by a number, but ELO ratings work pretty well though. You know about Starcraft II? It’s a strategy game with 3 very different races (Terran, Protoss, Zerg) and a lot of maps that alter the strategies you can use. Depending on the races combinations and the maps, the player’s skill vary greatly. Yet Starcraft II uses a modified ELO algorithm for its leagues and matchmaking system, and it works pretty well (actually, most of the game's matchmaking features are based on ELO or other similar rating systems).

nice idea +2 support

Basically what I do atm to determine one person's skill is look at their profile. the historical stats and playcount+ranked score give good clues as to how good a player is IMO.

I think this one is a pretty good feature if implemented, will give support when I'm capable to do so.

OK, now I see how it works. I didn't think it wouldn't work since there are plenty of established ways for it, we just need to tweak it to fit osu!. I was just curious since I've had no experience with any skill based rating system.

Not true everytime though, Kokizi, just look at me, my PC just broke so I'm probably not gonna get on osu! for a very long time (1 year at most) so my rank will decrease and my playcount will stay the same, while my skill won't decrease overtime (I'm not pro enough to actually lose skill if I don't play regularly).

That's why I kinda see the point of this idea and think it would be a good feature in osu!, but it seems fairly complicated to put in place.

I like where this is going, well done

Mr Color wrote:

but it seems fairly complicated to put in place.

Well, yes. It is pretty complicated, but we have the advantage of looking at how other games with skill-based ratings implement theirs. There is already a bunch that is established, we just need to see how they do it then tweak it for osu!.

I don't think I'm the only one that doesn't like the current ranking system. I can see some players that play worse than I do, and yet they are like 400 ranks above me.

Multiplayer basic rating system isn't hard to implement,but easy to abuse with current osu!
If there good solution for multi-account abuse , we will see in near future.

proxy?, only 1char from unique IP , pena for friend game abuse, song limit, class system, etc etc.


It is good to discuss how to make good system or idea for basic calculation :)

How about a special MP ranking which is like ESO based on players versus players.

dvorak wrote:

It is good to discuss how to make good system or idea for basic calculation

Yes!

anongos wrote:

Mr Color wrote:

but it seems fairly complicated to put in place.

Well, yes. It is pretty complicated, but we have the advantage of looking at how other games with skill-based ratings implement theirs. There is already a bunch that is established, we just need to see how they do it then tweak it for osu!.

I don't think I'm the only one that doesn't like the current ranking system. I can see some players that play worse than I do, and yet they are like 400 ranks above me.

Does anyone know of a rhythm game with a skill rating system?

JesusYamato wrote:

How about a special MP ranking which is like ESO based on players versus players.

While I know that's how it's done in most games, I thought about a player vs maps ratings for the following reasons:

- Rating players and maps in single player or multiplayer mode wouldn't make any difference: developers could use millions of single player games to beta test the multiplayer rating system efficiently. That wouldn't be possible with a player vs player rating system.

- Friends of very different level could play together: even with a high rating player winning every game, other players could increase their ratings as long as they beat some beatmaps.

- I think using beatmaps to rate players would make their ratings more stable. In the following example, A player vs player rating wouldn't work well:

Player A can:
- FC with 95% accuracy "easy" 5-star beatmaps.
- Get random and extremely low results on the hardest approved beatmaps (using "no fail" mod).

Player B can:
- FC with 90% accuracy "easy" 5-star beatmaps.
- Get random and extremely low results on the hardest approved beatmaps (using "no fail" mod).

Given their skills, easy 5-star beatmap plays are best suited to rate these players, and playing these maps, player A would be given an higher rating. But if they prefer playing beatmaps they can't beat:
- A player vs beatmap rating system would "know" these players aren't skilled enough to beat the maps. They would be expected to fail and they would fail => No ratings update.
- A player vs player rating system woud see random results (because it's much more random when you play beatmaps you're far from being able to beat) on a 5.00-star beatmaps like any other => the only fact that would be considered is that a player got 50,000 points while the other one got 100,000. Ratings would be updated, and that's bad imo. On an other map it could have been totally different.

I chose an extreme example to make things clear, but I think it would be a problem in any play on a too easy/hard beatmap. Any counter example?

ps : actually I think player vs player rating system would be feasible, but it would possibly be much harder on the dev team side.

Gerbator wrote:

Does anyone know of a rhythm game with a skill rating system?

That's not what I meant, but I get your point.

Really interesting idea
Too bad I ran out of my star

tl;dr I kinda agree with you, though I have no idea how to improve the ranking system of yours.

Problem is:

How do you judge how hard a map is? Some players suck at certain ARs, some others suck at streams but are incredibly pro at jumps (and the other way around). Some are really good at playing no mod but fail horribly whenever you add a mod, while there are some others that can FC maps in a single play using Hidden, HR or DT... there are lots of factors that you have to think about to see how hard a map is. And it's not like each mod is harder than the another one in every map, some maps are damn hard to do with hidden and some others (most) are just like playing no-mod, while the same can be applied with HR, there are many maps where HR actually makes the map easier since the circle size/AR is horribly low, and well DT always makes the whole thing harder but there are tons of maps that are so damn easy (even insanes) that DT just makes them fairly hard.

Your idea is quite good and stuff, but then again you have to think about what's harder, to FC an insane map or to clear it with a C using DT for example. In many cases some players can FC easily some insane maps with HR, but they get somewhat bad accuracy, but I personally think that's way harder than getting the S no-mod since it requires way more skill. Idk there are lots of factors you got to think about and it gonna end up in people discussing what's harder or not. I think the best way to solve this is to just add a ladder system like W3 or SC (I guess) already have.

Some Player Vs. Player rating system would work, since better players usually get a better score than worse players, that's a damn fact and you can see that happen in every multiplayer room you see, played a lot of multiplayer myself and the ranking is usually pretty much the same, A goes #1 or #2, B goes #1 or #2 (maybe #3), etc. Of course maybe you go sneeze and fail the map because of that, but that won't happen all the damn time, even if you are unlucky in one match, you gonna win the rest of them probably. In every game there is a factor called luck, I hate it too yeah but that's how it works, you can't remove it at all, which is why making an 1v1 system would be just fine. Having played multiplayer games with lots of top/very good/good players, I have seen how top players always (ok, 99% times) get higher scores, and with higher I mean an huge advantage, than good players, maybe they have a little fight with some very good player, but still when you're better you usually do better than a worse player, and that's a fact.

Just finished reading all the posts, and honestly I don't understand about what kind of rating system it suppose to be. Shall it be a pretty new feature or shall it replace some rating that we already have?

Have you ever played any RTS? Or are you familiar with ladder systems? Well the idea is something like that.

Ladder System i think its something like:
Is this the system you're talking about? havent heard it called ladder system before so i was wondering

Wishy22 wrote:

Have you ever played any RTS? Or are you familiar with ladder systems? Well the idea is something like that.

Is it adressed to my question? It yes, then it didn't answer my question. I do understand the rating system which is suggested here but I don't understand "where" it will work at least if it shall replace something that already exists or if it will be parallel to an exisiting "ranked" score system.

Sakura Hana wrote:

Ladder System i think its something like:

Each player starts at a certain ammount of points, winning a game against someone else will give them points depending on the difference in points between both, and losing a game will lose points depending on the difference as well:
Example 1: Player A has 140 points, and won against Player B who has 200 points, Player B has significantly more points than Player A so player A gains many points and Player B loses many points.

Example 2: same scenario but Player B wins, this time Player B wins a small ammount of points, and Player A loses a small ammount of points.

Is this the system you're talking about? havent heard it called ladder system before so i was wondering

Basically yeah, you got 1k rating the other guy has 1,1k you win you get like 30 points he loses 30 points, if the other guy had 99k instead of 1,1k and you win you earn 999999999999 and he loses 99999999999, it's basically 1v1 and it's name ladder game since that system was used by Blizzard in their RTS and got called like that (in W3 at least).

@Neruell: It doesn't matter if it does replace this ranked score system, I think both can co-exist perfectly you just got to add a tab to sort online users by rating and that's all. It could exist like a single button you can press to get a match against another player rated like you who's looking for a rated match.

it can be done with multiple ppl too like in MKWii btw

If it co-exist with the already available ranking system, then ok don't mind that one. If it should replace the already available "ranked" system then I am against it.

While most of the things that Wishy were correct, this topic doesn't request a 1on1 ladder or anything. It doesn't even want to compare players directly. Instead, it treats maps like players and pretty much becomes a 1on1 player vs map ladder. From the results of playing the map, the system decides who won (player or map) and then calculate their scores like Wishy explained. So if you FC a map that has a really high rating, your own rating goes up a lot. If you fail a map that's ranked way lower than you, you will lose a lot.

Thing is what matters is how good you are compared to other players, which can be "calculated" by rating games between players. Both would work but it'd be way more fun to play against other players instead of doing the same solo thing but now in multiplayer (or wherever you want) where you have to farm plays to get a good rating.

A good way to determine how hard something is would be to base it in player's scores, like if you see a map where in 1 out of 500 plays someone gets FC, then that map should be worth more than another one where 1 out of 100 FCs. Problem is this can be abused, then you got the retry issue (of course you gonna take data from solo! most maps are pretty much never ever played in multi rooms), and the problem of underplayed maps where you will have really few data and, from my own experience, whenever I play one of those random beatmaps that are like you do SH and get top 3, I end up quitting after 15 seconds when I see how the map goes. Though this can be solved by filtering beatmaps from 2009 or before (yes most old maps are unplayable shit) and not letting them be "rated" in "rated games". I'm saying this assuming the map being played for rated games is random and not selected by anyone.

Wishy22 wrote:

Though this can be solved by filtering beatmaps from 2009 or before (yes most old maps are unplayable shit).

No ;_;

Well not all of them but checking out every old map gonna be a pain.

A lot of times me and just 1 friend will go against each other in multiplayer mode. We'll take turns picking songs and the rule is, if you don't have the song the other person chose, you download it. Well, of course, whoever chose the song will usually win because they've played it multiple times and figured out any trick patterns, etc. And whoever just downloaded the song and is playing it for the first time might even fail/get a bad score because they've never seen the song before, and it might take them another try to get an A or whatever. Usually when I don't do so well because it's my first time, I'm like whatever, it dropped my accuracy by .02% or something. But now it will be like sacrificing my "points" if I'm doing a song for the first time, just for the fun of it >.< Even in multiplayer mode, if there's no rooms open with songs I have, I'll choose a random song in a room that seems interesting, download it, do it for the first time. This point system seems to me like it would discourage downloading a song and doing it for the first time in multiplayer. What I'm trying to say is: Will the amount of times you've played through the map effect the score? Someone who's played the map 20 times should obviously be doing better than someone of equal skill playing it the first time. Does it really matter? I don't know. Did you already discuss/find a solution to this problem? Haha, I don't know, I didn't read through this whole discussion Just ignore this if you already have a solution or whatever. I do like this idea a lot, it seems a bit complex, but it's definitely possible.

I was barely explaining what a Ladder System was, plus those games usually have "unranked" "unrated" matches which dont affect your rating/points (not to be confused with unranked mods in osu! i bet the songs would still count towards your ranked score, playcount, etc)

I would be happy if the current ranking system would be improved, rather than thinking of a new with even more problems involved.

Actual system is pretty much about farming, you're not better for having played and FC'd almost every map.

You could just make mods give huge bonuses like DT 9999% Hidden 1% FL 5000% HR 4000% and then people ranking maps would get huge scores compared to those who just farm score with no mods, I know the numbers I put are retarded. And even with that it would be stupid since everyone gonna go play hard diffs with DT instead of Insane since they're damn easy, which in the end makes the game again about farming, the best you can do is make a whole new system where players have to compete each other in real time to raise their rank.

I think it's a solid idea to be honest and it would be great if one day it would be implemented.

Well my idea is not about directly playing against each other but it looks like this:

Only mods should be counted since playing with mods is considered to be good/skillfull by almost everyone..

The idea is once you full combo a beatmap with a mod you usually get a higher score than players with SS no mod FC. If you done that your skill rating value or ELO would rise or fall by a few points depending on how high you are in the song ranking, only counting mod plays!

Now for an example i just took a random beatmap and looked at the scores..



19 People FC this song with mods so depending on where you are, the amount of points you get is different. In this example DarkRingSystem will get the highest amount, Uan something in the middle, Yuka-san still a bit and Rost94 almost none but still something.

So how do you drop in your skill rating ELO? Well simple, when other users get a higher place in a song than you you would drop down a rank and therefore get less "skill-rating" in that. It should update your total rating then.

Okay that was the main idea.. here are just some more things to notice:

The actual value of your "skill" should be displayed as an average of .. i dont know how to say.. just an average of everything you played with mods. similar to accuracy.
This will prevent playing hundreds of maps with mods just for the reason to push your skill rating to a ridiculous high value, and thats the opposite of what a skill based rating system is about.

About the different difficulties in a beatmap set:

Easy is easy to play mods and Insane is harder to play mods. Yeah thats right and none will disagree with that but every difficulty should be considered in this system. Since there are also players that love to compete in easy diffs aswell as players that love to compete in insane diffs with mods!

The actual gain of rating there has to increase as the difficulty goes up!

Example: Easy:10% Normal:30% Hard:65% Insane:100%.
The only problem here is that it would be based on the Star Rating of the song i think. Well but i think it is okay even if now people will think something like "Some 5 Star hard diffs are pretty easy to clear with mods though".
In the end it would still be the same since the gain is determined by how many players cleared it with a mod and what their ranking is compared to the others.
So if this diff is really so easy to play alot of people are actually playing it with mods and it is not as rewarding if you are the #30 out of 50 that FC'd it with mods than if you are only one of the of the few that cleared a Insane diff, and you are the #2 out of 8 there. I hope that was not too hard too read/understand because it was hard for me to write and find the words..

All in all it would be looking something like this:

Easy diffs player got a rating of 100
Normal diffs player got a rating of 300
Hard diffs player got a rating of 500
Insane diffs player got a rating of 800

Those numbers are just an example since i didnt try to calculate anything but what is important, is that it shows a clear difference on what you play and ofcourse if you play harder things your rating is higher...

Some more things i thought about:

Since older maps are played less and less or almost never anymore they shouldnt be part of this. I dont think anyone wants to backtrack and play beatmaps that dont even fullfill the current ranking criteria. Also some maps are so old that only 1 or 2 players did it with hidden and the rest is just no mods play. You could just DT them and get #1 rankings, but well i dont know if anyone wants to do that... Also they are not fulfilling the standards of what is considered difficult or hard today anymore, at least in my eyes. What was hard 3 years ago is not anymore nowadays, some exceptions.

There should also be a requirement of when to get ranked. If someone just played 1 or 2 maps with mods they shouldnt be counted into this. Probably a requirement of at least 10 or 20 maps until you get valued in this.

Some players play hard or insane diffs most of the time and occasionaly easy and normal (or the other way around). Since it shows an average as a result it would falsify your rating. So only the difficulty level you played the most would count, just to keep the result to the truth as good as possible.

"Some beatmaps are so difficult allready to FC even without mods! Why are they not counted in this?" i thought that too but it just doesnt fit in and theres allways the regular scoreboard in that map for it! Also if you are the one to clear it with a mod.. well theres your reward right there lol (theres usually someone good/ crazy enough to do something like that )

Since approved maps are often very difficult i thought about them too but meh... there are some harder approved maps and there are some that are just approved because they are either long or got a too high score. So i just left them out in my idea..

In my idea everyone is at a base level and it is impossible to go into the negative. I don't know if thats a bad thing though. You play with mods to set the difficulty for yourself higher anyways so it is okay. If you would be able to drop below the ground level it would be stupid anyways because your rating would be lower that someone that hasnt played with mods ever.

Looking at that screenshot again and since there is a recent discussion about FL... just blank that out for this. Some players will think of the one beeing harder and more difficult in skill than the other. While others think the other way around.

Also last and probably most important: No mod plays are completely left out. Players that play with mods to push them to their limits usually feel superiour to others that play without mods anyways, and they probably are better aswell. Counting no mod plays in would kind of destroy this idea. This doesnt mean you're bad or anything at all if you get S or SS on a song. Its still good but i dont know how nomod play would fit in here (it probably could but then again S or SS ranks arent a problem for the majority of players and i also think it should not be counted, because it is alot harder to play with mods anyways).

Well thats all i thought about yet...
thanks for reading and i hope i didn't give to much trouble with that

Sorry, tl;dr
But making 96%+ HD plays/DT 93%+ e.t.c. superior to no-mod SS(or 99%+) plays is dumb. Especially on maps with high OD
IMO

personaloppinion

I sure hope nobody thinks accuracy has anything to do with skills.

Everything is a skill
Being able to not feel nervous while being specced is a skill
Being able to get good accuracy no matter the kind of map/ar/od is a skill
Being able to read any kind of AR be it low or high is a skill
Being able to play with obnoxious bg/skins is also somehow a skill

Hanyuu wrote:

19 People

Surely you mean 17.

a skill-based player rating which goes after who's the best

let's say 10 people have to play 10 beatmaps

each gets one top rank on it. now what can we do to find out which one of these players is the best?
take the avrage score, and avrage accuracy.
the one with the most of both wins

theowest wrote:

I sure hope nobody thinks accuracy has anything to do with skills.

Accuracy should just be removed from the game completely

I mean what the hell, a rhythm game that requires the player to stay on rhythm? That requires absolutely no skill and it's breaking the game!

ragelewa wrote:

theowest wrote:

I sure hope nobody thinks accuracy has anything to do with skills.

Accuracy should just be removed from the game completely except from beatmaps

I mean what the hell, a rhythm game that requires the player to stay on rhythm? That requires absolutely no skill and it's breaking the game!

<3

That's why Taiko is the best rhythm mode. <3

TheNutritiousGuy wrote:

That's why Taiko is the best rhythm mode. <3

I think you mean that's why Catch the Beat is the best rhythm mode :3

those wrote:

TheNutritiousGuy wrote:

That's why Taiko is the best rhythm mode. <3

I think you mean that's why Catch the Beat is the best rhythm mode :3

i hope you're kidding.

theowest wrote:

those wrote:

I think you mean that's why Catch the Beat is the best rhythm mode :3

i hope you're kidding.

Of course not! Catch the Beat doesn't break the game with rhythm at all! That's why it's the best!

those wrote:

theowest wrote:

i hope you're kidding.

Of course not! Catch the Beat doesn't break the game with rhythm at all! That's why it's the best!

What is a rhythm game?
Rhythm game or rhythm action is a genre of music-themed action video game that challenges a player's sense of rhythm. Games in the genre typically focus on dance or the simulated performance of musical instruments, and require players to press buttons in a sequence dictated on the screen. TO THE RHYTHM

In ctb you move with your keys to move towards the beats, coming towards you. This doesn't require any rhythmic skill at all. You're not pressing any keys to the beat, you're pressing them to move. You can even stand still in some beatmaps while a truckload of beats come falling towards you. You're just standing there, catching the beats. Not doing anything with them. It's like playing osu! with relax mod on.

Taiko is the most rhythmic rhythm based gamemode in osu! It requires you to press your keys to the beat
osu! makes you move around with a cursor in order to press beats, that isn't very rhythmic if you ask me.

The thing about CTB is that you dont need to move towards the fruit on time, you can move early and wait for the fruit there.

That being said you guys are going off-topic here.

Sakura Hana wrote:

The thing about CTB is that you dont need to move towards the fruit on time, you can move early and wait for the fruit there.

That being said you guys are going off-topic here.

yep.

theowest wrote:

In ctb you move with your keys to move towards the beats, coming towards you. This doesn't require any rhythmic skill at all.

ragelewa wrote:

theowest wrote:

I sure hope nobody thinks accuracy has anything to do with skills.

Accuracy should just be removed from the game completely

I mean what the hell, a rhythm game that requires the player to stay on rhythm? That requires absolutely no skill and it's breaking the game!

I'm just agreeing with lewa.

those wrote:

ragelewa wrote:

Accuracy should just be removed from the game completely

I mean what the hell, a rhythm game that requires the player to stay on rhythm? That requires absolutely no skill and it's breaking the game!

I'm just agreeing with lewa.

osu doesn't require you to stay on rhythm. but the better you do, the better scores you get. your accuracy just shows how well you did accuracy wise. If someone did better than you, then he would've gotten a better score then you.

back to topic

I find a ranking system based on how fast the player can play, move around, react and memorize is the best way to find someone's true skill.

With a new difficulty rating system this could be possible. But it'd have to analyse everything and that would be too much of a hassle. D:

..or would it?

Some jumps in CtB needs a lot more timing than getting a 300 hit on OD10 standard, just saying...

The idea of ELO rating system adaptation is pretty nice but you still have the problem of rating a beatmap (also you need a difficulty rating for taiko and CtB cause : A stream map is going to be hard on osu! / taiko, and going to be easy on ctb. Then a jumpy map could be hard on standard but easy on taiko and hard on ctb). You'll need a big good mod rating by beatmap too (meaning DT on an 110 bpm AR8 map is easy but HR is obviously harder, or the typicall map wich turns totally unreadable with HD cause many circles are under sliders). I have actually 22k beatmaps installed on my pc and I don't have all of the actual ranked maps, this sounds like impossible to reach one day an accurate rating for every ranked beatmaps.

Drafura wrote:

Some jumps in CtB needs a lot more timing than getting a 300 hit on OD10 standard, just saying...

The idea of ELO rating system adaptation is pretty nice but you still have the problem of rating a beatmap (also you need a difficulty rating for taiko and CtB cause : A stream map is going to be hard on osu! / taiko, and going to be easy on ctb. Then a jumpy map could be hard on standard but easy on taiko and hard on ctb). You'll need a big good mod rating by beatmap too (meaning DT on an 110 bpm AR8 map is easy but HR is obviously harder, or the typicall map wich turns totally unreadable with HD cause many circles are under sliders). I have actually 22k beatmaps installed on my pc and I don't have all of the actual ranked maps, this sounds like impossible to reach one day an accurate rating for every ranked beatmaps.

remove ctb?